Nerf League: Week 1

[SnowFire]

It was a battle of titans.  Brahms' castle trembled with the coiled power about to be unleashed between the two deadly adversaries, each of whom wielded shards of the very power that sustained the universe.

"Your soul shall be mine!" screamed the immortal warlock.

"Hello." said the reincarnating goddess.

Ted carefully looked at his hand.  Jaraxxus?  A Felguard?  What the crap was this.  Only thing keepable was the Mortal Coil, maybe, to eat some souls.  What came back was no better - no fast Mountain Giants.

Hrist, on the other hand, was thrilled.  As a dirty mech mage player looking at the beautiful curve in her opener, she knew she'd soon win the match, and thus the entire tournament.  "Good luck!" she emoted, smiling at her bad manners.  Her record in the old DL was just a fluke.  They'll see this time.

--

The patch has come in, and the non-Hatbot randomizer has spoken.

Because Nerf League is CRAZY and also unlikely to happen again any time soon, I went for a slightly larger tournament to get more people in, which meant 24 duelist brackets in Heavy / Middle / Light.  Not a power of 2!  Crazy!  Stop nerfing 32!  Hopefully it shouldn't be too bad, as I expect a number of really obvious stomps in a format of erratic power levels like this.

Godlike

Portable Minato (P3) vs. Dream Deported Lady (SH3)
Narshe Kefka (FF6) vs. Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2)
Surprise Kain Valvalis (FF4) vs. Redeemed Ghaleon (L2)
Bruiser Jade (BoF1) vs. Decelerated Divine Weapon (WA4)

Heavy

Underdrive TimeLord (Saga Frontier) vs. Beached Doomwhale Kyogre (Pokemon)
Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. Fall & Fire Don't Mix Holly (Wizard of Oz)
Chivalrous Rika (PS4) vs. Non-explosive Jessica (DQ8)
PC Magus (CT) vs. Not hiding behind his so-called Goddess Billy (XG)
B-ending Riou (S2) vs. Type-1 Body T260G (Saga Frontier)
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Reasonable Rolf (PS2)

Middle

Sniper Neimi (FE8) vs. Chivalrous Alys Brangwin (PS4)
Ether-drained MOMO (XS3) vs. Healer Yuna (FFX)
Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) vs. Dark Flier Sumia (FEA)
Insomniac Ness (EB) vs. Lightweight Hilda (SH3)
Sharon the Astraphobe (LoL2) vs. Pro-Life Nina (BoF2)
Hoarder Shadow (FF6) vs. Agni'd Myria (BoF)

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Bird Jesus Pidgeot (Pokemon)
Actually mute Crono (CT) vs. Abandoned Deus (XG)
Anti-Egyptian Reno 1 (FF7) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)
Super Trainee Amelia (FE8) vs. Doctor Feena (G1)
Dauntless Sanaki (FE10) vs. Speedrun Jack (WAACF)
Flowing Sasarai (S3) vs. Diamond Mog (FF6)

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Classic Hrist (VP)
Pacifist Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Staff Girl Laura (FE10)
True Renaissance Man Serph (DDS) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA)
Milon1 (FF4) vs. Eliwood, Pupil of Jagen (FE)

[SnowFire]

Here's the limitations for reference for characters who aren't just using a weird form (a few were subtly changed around):

Portable Minato (P3) - No fusions.  Weapon locked to rapiers.
Dream Deported Lady (SH3) - Initial stock set to 0.
Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2) - Only uses holy-elemental damage moves.
Surprise Kain Valvalis (FF4) - Permanently de-spun.
Bruiser Jade (BoF1) - No BoltX.
Decelerated Divine Weapon (WA4) - No Accelerator, start on form 3.

Heavy

Underdrive TimeLord (Saga Frontier) - No OverDrive.
Beached Doomwhale Kyogre (Pokemon) - Drought is in effect.
Vincible Elc (AtL2) - No Invincible.
Fall & Fire Don't Mix Holly (Wizard of Oz) - No fire spells.
Chivalrous Rika (PS4) - No Eliminat.
Non-explosive Jessica (DQ8) - No Fisticuffs / Magic Burst.
Not hiding behind his so-called Goddess Billy (XG) - No Goddess Call (Haste).
B-ending Riou (S2) - No Forgiver Sign.
Knightless Lulu (FFX) - No Onion Knight Celestial.
Reasonable Rolf (PS2) - Not taken at Megid levels.

Middle

Chivalrous Alys Brangwin - No Death.
Ether-drained MOMO (XS3) - Starts with 120 EP.
Healer Yuna (FFX) - No Aeons, no Holy.
Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) - No OverDrive.
Insomniac Ness (EB) - No Magicant stat boosts.
Lightweight Hilda (SH3) - No Curvy form.
Sharon the Astraphobe (LoL2) - No Arrode.
Pro-Life Nina (BoF2) - No Death.
Hoarder Shadow (FF6) - No Throw.  Offering equipped.
Agni'd Myria (BoF) - Scaled against Agni.  See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOttN32IMWI .

Light

Bird Jesus Pidgeot (Pokemon) - Moveset: [Mirror Move, Sand-Attack, Quick Attack, Sky Attack]
Actually mute Crono (CT) - Starts w/ 0MP, Prism Specs equipped.
Abandoned Deus (XG) - All supports destroyed.
Anti-Egyptian Reno 1 (FF7) - No Pyramid.
Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4) - No claws, no non-attack spells.
Doctor Feena (G1) - No Time Gate.
Dauntless Sanaki (FE10) - No Rudol Gem.
Speedrun Jack (WAACF) - Only knows Speed Fang, Strike Buddy, Acute Angle, and Blade Pulse (5/4/2/2).
Flowing Sasarai (S3) - No True Earth Rune.
Diamond Mog (FF6) - No Snow Muffler (= Diamond Armor equipped).

Puny

Pacifist Riki (Saga Frontier) - No absorbs.
Staff Girl Laura (FE10) - No Tomes.
True Renaissance Man Serph (DDS) - First-tier Mantras only, even stat distribution.  [Agi, Bufu, Zio, Zan, Tera, and Hell Thrust]
Songstress Tear (TotA) - Skillset just: [Nightmare, Holy Song, Force Field, Revitalize].
Eliwood, Pupil of Jagen (FE) - 1/9 Eliwood.

(Also if I messed up here I reserve the right to throw a fix in of course, but hopefully that won't happen.)

[SnowFire]

As a quick side comment, I ran the stats on 20/9 Amelia vs. my 20/10 stat topic per Reiska's stat modifications, and they came out to this:

Amelia, Lvl 9 Trainee
42 HP, 20 Str, 19 Skl, 20 (17) Spd, 17 Def, 10 Res, 24 Luck, 6 Con, 5 Mov
0.99 PCHP, 0.81 DefMult, 1.19 ResMult, 1.22 PDurability, 0.83 MDurability, 58 Raw Avoid, 21.4% Evasion

Killer Lance: 16 damage (51% Critical), 100 Hit, 100% Accuracy, 17 AS
Silver Lance: 20 damage (21% Critical), 105 Hit, 100% Accuracy, 16 AS

So she's not TOO different, except the horrible Con means that she's weighed down to 16-17 speed and gets doubled by average now, which wasn't true as a General.  She can get around this by equipping a Slim Lance and go back to 20 Spd, but that tanks her damage a good deal (-10 vs. Silver).

[Ranmilia]

I don't know enough to be comfortable voting on any of this, but I can safely say that if you're playing Felguard in your deck, you don't mulligan it.  Especially not vs mage.  Ted deserves everything he's about to get.

[SnowFire]

Ted sighed.  "Damnit, I was thinking of Doomguard, the 5 mana finisher Haste guy!"  To his horror, he'd just mull'd away the wrong kind of guard. 

[Nephrite]

Godlike

Portable Minato (P3) vs. Dream Deported Lady (SH3)
Narshe Kefka (FF6) vs. Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2)
Surprise Kain Valvalis (FF4) vs. Redeemed Ghaleon (L2)
Bruiser Jade (BoF1) vs. Decelerated Divine Weapon (WA4)

Heavy

Underdrive TimeLord (Saga Frontier) vs. Beached Doomwhale Kyogre (Pokemon) - Think Timelord can survive a Kyogre turn and then Time Eclipse?
Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. Fall & Fire Don't Mix Holly (Wizard of Oz)
Chivalrous Rika (PS4) vs. Non-explosive Jessica (DQ8)
PC Magus (CT) vs. Not hiding behind his so-called Goddess Billy (XG)
B-ending Riou (S2) vs. Type-1 Body T260G (Saga Frontier) - Uhhhhh probably T260G?
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Reasonable Rolf (PS2) - Guessing she survives a round to blow Rolf up with Death?

Middle

Sniper Neimi vs. Chivalrous Alys Brangwin - Saner probably tips this?
Ether-drained MOMO (XS3) vs. Healer Yuna (FFX)
Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) vs. Dark Flier Sumia (FEA)
Insomniac Ness (EB) vs. Lightweight Hilda (SH3)
Sharon the Astraphobe (LoL2) vs. Pro-Life Nina (BoF2)
Hoarder Shadow (FF6) vs. Agni'd Myria (BoF) - jk BIG CRASH wins

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Bird Jesus Pidgeot (Pokemon) - Pretty sure Tiamat gives Pidgeot the turns it needs for crazy evasion.
Actually mute Crono (CT) vs. Abandoned Deus (XG)
Anti-Egyptian Reno 1 (FF7) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4) - I think even this version of Edge can beat Reno... maybe?
Super Trainee Amelia (FE8) vs. Doctor Feena (G1)
Dauntless Sanaki (FE10) vs. Speedrun Jack (WAACF)
Flowing Sasarai (S3) vs. Diamond Mog (FF6) -

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Classic Hrist (VP) - Think Ted's stats were actually really good?
Pacifist Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Staff Girl Laura (FE10) - No.
True Renaissance Man Serph (DDS) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA) - no.
Milon1 (FF4) vs. Eliwood, Pupil of Jagen (FE) - Hell no.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Myria's best damage against Agni is Big Crash, which while weak (15HKO to Agni, somewhat better to the fragile Shadow), does not trigger Dogblock, and her defence is so high that there's no way she's losing to a pure physical slugger like him unless you see her under 1.5 PCHP or something.

[Nephrite]

For some reason I forgot Myria even had that spell.

[Random Consonant]

Godlike

Narshe Kefka (FF6) vs. Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2) - I'd wager that Reicher still has too much damage and durability for this.
Surprise Kain Valvalis (FF4) vs. Redeemed Ghaleon (L2)

Heavy

Underdrive TimeLord (Saga Frontier) vs. Beached Doomwhale Kyogre (Pokemon) - likely sticks the petrify
Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. Fall & Fire Don't Mix Holly (Wizard of Oz)
PC Magus (CT) vs. Not hiding behind his so-called Goddess Billy (XG)
B-ending Riou (S2) vs. Type-1 Body T260G (Saga Frontier)
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Reasonable Rolf (PS2) - yep

Middle

Sniper Neimi vs. Chivalrous Alys Brangwin - Think so at any rate?
Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) vs. Dark Flier Sumia (FEA) - Survives a double no matter what.
Insomniac Ness (EB) vs. Lightweight Hilda (SH3)

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Bird Jesus Pidgeot (Pokemon) - e: right, thunder actually relevent here
Actually mute Crono (CT) vs. Abandoned Deus (XG)
Anti-Egyptian Reno 1 (FF7) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)
Super Trainee Amelia (FE8) vs. Doctor Feena (G1)
Flowing Sasarai (S3) vs. Diamond Mog (FF6)

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Classic Hrist (VP) - uh
Pacifist Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Staff Girl Laura (FE10) - save us elfboy
Milon1 (FF4) vs. Eliwood, Pupil of Jagen (FE) - 0.44 mdur?  that'll take you far, Eliwood ma boi.

[SnowFire]

Surprise Kain Valvalis (FF4) vs. Redeemed Ghaleon (L2)
Jump'd Valvalis is just a PC-killer, not a slugger.
Bruiser Jade (BoF1) vs. Decelerated Divine Weapon (WA4)
Jade is way tankier (~6.25 PCHP vs. ~.9 PCHP + some nebulous amount of support credit) while DW is way more damaging (~.27 PCHP a round vs. 1.25 PCHP every other round off much better speed).  That said, even giving Divine Weapon a Lady-esque final shot to represent the Arc Impulse requirement, I suspect he dies first here; Jade 4HKOs = 5HKOs w/ the final hit, while DW needs ~10 rounds and shouldn't quite 2:1 Jade.  If he had Form 2 as well he'd take this of course.

Heavy

PC Magus (CT) vs. Not hiding behind his so-called Goddess Billy (XG)
Instant Death.  (Well, it was a weird area, right?  Maybe Billy can dodge it from range?  eh.)

Middle

Sniper Neimi vs. Chivalrous Alys Brangwin
As a reminder there's SURE SHOT hype, and also Alys arguably should have a weaker Saner if scaled at time of leaving the party, and Neimi has overkill Hit, so you have to get REAL dodgy before you'll realistically dodge. 
Ether-drained MOMO (XS3) vs. Healer Yuna (FFX)
Block Poison, build up 1 Boost gauge & get Yuna near break point with inaccurate basic physicals, Seal Yuna, unload on her & try and kill her through Protect / Shell (she can't block Laser elemental!) while she can't heal.  Stat topic claims statuses generally last about 5 turns so this should hopefully be enough time.  When Yuna comes back to life from Auto-Life, blow a Boost Gauge to jump in and immediately re-kill her.  MOMO only can get away with this due to Yuna's totally nonexistent pressure of course.
EDIT: Yuna's regen is cheatier than expected, and MOMO needs to save a boost , and MOMO will be ramming into Reflect + Protect so even 3x Sword Fish aren't gonna kill.
Hoarder Shadow (FF6) vs. Agni'd Myria (BoF)
I'm not particularly inclined to hype Tyr's defense - Agni deals 999 damage to other enemies, it still deals 999 to her - but her HP is still stupidly solid, and I don't think Shadow can heal.

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Bird Jesus Pidgeot (Pokemon)
oh suuuuper
Actually mute Crono (CT) vs. Abandoned Deus (XG)
Cosmically crushed.
Anti-Egyptian Reno 1 (FF7) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)
FF7 boss damage is a thing.  Could be convinced otherwise but I suspect Edge still has this.
Super Trainee Amelia (FE8) vs. Doctor Feena (G1)
Feena gets doubled Zap Whips and the like here if Amelia has anything approaching damage, and I'd see that as ranged.  She can also blow a single End of the World if she wants, and still has healing.  Ugly.
EDIT: On second thought...  If Zap Whip is small range, then Amelia gets a counter.  If Zap Whip is large range then it's MT and doesn't double and Amelia gets a 2nd strike in anyway.  Killer critz hype is irrelevant, 2x Silver should do the job too.  So...  Amelia after all, Feena healing is a bad strategy.
Dauntless Sanaki (FE10) vs. Speedrun Jack (WAACF)
No ACF, but Sanaki is really, really, frail and probably doubled.
Flowing Sasarai (S3) vs. Diamond Mog (FF6)
Not sure how Sasarai can ever win.

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Classic Hrist (VP)
Milon1 (FF4) vs. Eliwood, Pupil of Jagen (FE)
I suspect doubled Lit1 is fatal here.

[Excal]

Godlike

Portable Minato (P3) vs. Dream Deported Lady (SH3)
Narshe Kefka (FF6) vs. Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2)
Surprise Kain Valvalis (FF4) vs. Redeemed Ghaleon (L2)
Bruiser Jade (BoF1) vs. Decelerated Divine Weapon (WA4)

Heavy

Underdrive TimeLord (Saga Frontier) vs. Beached Doomwhale Kyogre (Pokemon)
Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. Fall & Fire Don't Mix Holly (Wizard of Oz)
Chivalrous Rika (PS4) vs. Non-explosive Jessica (DQ8)
PC Magus (CT) vs. Not hiding behind his so-called Goddess Billy (XG)
B-ending Riou (S2) vs. Type-1 Body T260G (Saga Frontier)
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Reasonable Rolf (PS2)

Middle

Sniper Neimi vs. Chivalrous Alys Brangwin - One of the few fights where Neimi gets counters.
Ether-drained MOMO (XS3) vs. Healer Yuna (FFX)
Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) vs. Dark Flier Sumia (FEA)
Insomniac Ness (EB) vs. Lightweight Hilda (SH3)
Sharon the Astraphobe (LoL2) vs. Pro-Life Nina (BoF2)
Hoarder Shadow (FF6) vs. Agni'd Myria (BoF)

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Bird Jesus Pidgeot (Pokemon)
Actually mute Crono (CT) vs. Abandoned Deus (XG)
Anti-Egyptian Reno 1 (FF7) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)
Super Trainee Amelia (FE8) vs. Doctor Feena (G1)
Dauntless Sanaki (FE10) vs. Speedrun Jack (WAACF)
Flowing Sasarai (S3) vs. Diamond Mog (FF6)

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Classic Hrist (VP)
Pacifist Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Staff Girl Laura (FE10)
True Renaissance Man Serph (DDS) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA)
Milon1 (FF4) vs. Eliwood, Pupil of Jagen (FE)

[superaielman]

Godlike

Narshe Kefka (FF6) vs. Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2)
Surprise Kain Valvalis (FF4) vs. Redeemed Ghaleon (L2)
Bruiser Jade (BoF1) vs. Decelerated Divine Weapon (WA4)

Heavy

Underdrive TimeLord (Saga Frontier) vs. Beached Doomwhale Kyogre (Pokemon)- TimeEclipse. 
Chivalrous Rika (PS4) vs. Non-explosive Jessica (DQ8)- Thinking her status is enoguh here.
PC Magus (CT) vs. Not hiding behind his so-called Goddess Billy (XG)-Strong kneejerk.
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Reasonable Rolf (PS2)- Strong kneejerk.


Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Bird Jesus Pidgeot (Pokemon)- Oh god, Tiamat's best damage is Thunder. This is ugly.
Anti-Egyptian Reno 1 (FF7) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)- I... am not sure here? Reno was pretty aggressively bad outside of Pyramid.
Flowing Sasarai (S3) vs. Diamond Mog (FF6)- Walls. Diamond Mog already owns Sas even with the TER anyway, which is funny.

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Classic Hrist (VP)
Milon1 (FF4) vs. Eliwood, Pupil of Jagen (FE)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike

Narshe Kefka (FF6) vs. Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2): Remote Blade is holy, so this is pretty much only a nerf to Reicher against holy defence, which Kefka doesn't have. Narshe Kefka's a pretty underrated Godlike I feel, but yeah, not in Reicher's league.
Surprise Kain Valvalis (FF4) vs. Redeemed Ghaleon (L2): Think so, anyway.
Bruiser Jade (BoF1) vs. Decelerated Divine Weapon (WA4): Jade's not doing worse than a 3HKO here (4HKO if you give DW a bonus hit), and I really don't think DW can kill first. He pretty much needs you to give him phantom, unkillable Devices so that ABM Launcher is good, otherwise his best offence is Boost Arch Smasher every other turn, and he gets at most three of those, which is like 4PC at best.

Heavy

Underdrive TimeLord (Saga Frontier) vs. Beached Doomwhale Kyogre (Pokemon): Kyogre MDef should reduce TimeEclipse to turn 2, but TimeLord is faster so that's not good enough.
Chivalrous Rika (PS4) vs. Non-explosive Jessica (DQ8): Rika hiding behind Saner and a Psy Mail is shockingly hard for Jessica to do, like, anything to. Meanwhile Rika still has ID via Genocyber Claw or just overwhelming Jessica's weak healing
PC Magus (CT) vs. Not hiding behind his so-called Goddess Billy (XG): I generally feel Black Hole covers enough of the screen to hype it against, at the very least, anyone who isn't actively good at kiting in his or her home game (so Ramza could hang out outside range to use Scream). Billy's entirely flavourful long range certainly isn't good enough for me here.
B-ending Riou (S2) vs. Type-1 Body T260G (Saga Frontier): I think T260G is still too good, having taken the time to go over this view. Still one of the best mecs and clearly Godlike, has one shot of 120% magic damage off nearly 2 SD of speed (though admittedly only a 4HKO otherwise, though PluralSlash setups are still possible for longer fights...), and the usual crazy durability. Crushes Riou taken this way, and probably the entire field.

Middle

Sniper Neimi vs. Chivalrous Alys Brangwin: Alys is faster and has a 3HKO with Gifoi. Neimi... just baarely doubles by Pyro's notes, but misses it by Snowfire's, and honestly that's probably right since juicing assassin levels will raise the speed average some. And she only 4HKOs shield Alys, even with Sniper's +1 Str. Which means Alys can afford to trigger a counter, actually. So she goes Shift, then 2HKO with Vortex.

Ether-drained MOMO (XS3) vs. Healer Yuna (FFX): MOMO takes a notable HP hit to block status, but yeah, that doesn't matter. Snowfire's analysis looks pretty good... but the problem is it doesn't factor in regen, which is a huge pain in the ass for MOMO I think. Regen isn't listed in Yuna's own stat topic entry (sorry!) but it restores about 10% of her HP every round. Yuna can also resist silence, but not sure if she should or not. Will abstain for now.
Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) vs. Dark Flier Sumia (FEA): Should survive to get a turn, yeah, and Tower is overkill.
Sharon the Astraphobe (LoL2) vs. Pro-Life Nina (BoF2): Faster, probably 2HKOs, may have charm kick in, etc.
Hoarder Shadow (FF6) vs. Agni'd Myria (BoF): Yup.

Light

Actually mute Crono (CT) vs. Abandoned Deus (XG): Crono just misses the 3HKO on Deus due to its PDef to me, so Deus gets three counter chances. Deus is also faster. So it gets off four Cosmic Crushers and 1.5 counters = juuust fails to kill Crono on average. Of course, non-average things can happen, and if two counters activate, Deus actually wins, unless Crono crits three times out of 3. (34% chance) If fewer than two counters activate, Deus only wins if Crono gets fewer than two crits out of four (8% chance). So yeah, Crono does win more often than not.
Anti-Egyptian Reno 1 (FF7) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4): REno is bad.
Super Trainee Amelia (FE8) vs. Doctor Feena (G1): Amelia 2HKOs Feena with a Silver Lance (Feena pdur is kinda bad, 0.77). Obviously healing won't be useful against that. She can double with Zap Whip, but that only gets used once, and 2x Zap Whip + End of the World isn't fatal. And that's assuming she doesn't trigger counters. (Pretty sure that's how I feel, but yeah, it doesn't matter!)
Dauntless Sanaki (FE10) vs. Speedrun Jack (WAACF): Jack 2HKOs, and while he may have to trigger a counter and may not double, he'd win even then because his HP lets him take two Cymbelines.
Flowing Sasarai (S3) vs. Diamond Mog (FF6): Yeah, Sasarai's damage here is way too bad (7HKO at best), plenty of time for Mog to land Snare. Loads of Magic Repel hype could tilt this I guess, but even then Mog could probably use a healing dance and win when Sas runs out of resources (or Cockatrice hits).

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Classic Hrist (VP): I didn't pay close attention to the puny noms at the time, but... why would Ted be Puny? Yeah, he's a runeless Suikoden 1 character, but he's probably comparable to, say, Kirkis. He's more of a Light.
Pacifist Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Staff Girl Laura (FE10): uhhhh okay this match is endless (Laura staff regen, Riki's infinite heal). So it comes down to who does more damage. Laura normally does 0, but can do non-zero against, like, bishops. TailHit, however, breaks defence even against endgame monsters, albeit for doubledigit damage. Inclined to respect TailHit more than staff physicals.
True Renaissance Man Serph (DDS) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA): Does Tear have her basic physical? It doesn't matter here, but some matches can easily run her out of MP if she has to rely on Nightmare. This, however, isn't one. See Dhyer.
Milon1 (FF4) vs. Eliwood, Pupil of Jagen (FE): Milon 2HKOs, and almost certainly doubles.


EDIT: T260G setup notes, in case I return to these later.

PoweredSuit (50/50/50/50/50/30/30/30) [HP+100, STR/QUI+20] (5200)
ElectroArmor (25/33/25/35/35/35/35/25) [HP+75, QUI/VIT+15] (1480)
HyperBlaster (uses DestructionBeam, 7 uses) [HP+175, QUI/WIL+25] (4020)
MachineVulcan (uses Vulcan, 30 uses) [HP+150, QUI/WIL/VIT+18] (1550)
MirrorGlass (8/8/8/4/4/4/4/4, immunes Blind) [HP+75, INT/WIL+25]
MecBody (10/15/10/10/10/5/5/5, immunes all status except Stun, locked)

HyperBlaster
MachineVulcan x4
ElectroArmor x2
HP 1025
STR 5
QUI 132
VIT 107
INT 5
WIL 102
PSY 5
60/81/60/80/80/75/75/65
2 slots
13180 cost


PoweredSuit
ElectroArmor x2
HyperBlaster
MachineVulcan
MirrorGlass x2
HP 825
STR 25
QUI 98
VIT 53
INT 55
WIL 98
PSY 5
Maxed defences
5 slots
14330 cost

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike

Portable Minato (P3) vs. Dream Deported Lady (SH3)- Gut reaction? Minato is good, but his strongpoint is durability tricks+walling a lot of type of damage. His weakpoint is...generally having a weakpoint. I guess his best bet might be Odin (and hope that Lady's Thunder/Wind attack is Thunder)...although Odin does have good damage (albeit slightly overrated in the topic, since it has less MAG than Mitsuru and is listed as doing more with an equivalent attack). Of course, I would hold Minato to worse damage (since everyone else only has 1 accessory there is any point in equipping- to raise their damage. Minato can't reliably do that).
Narshe Kefka (FF6) vs. Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2)- Yeah, Reicher is just now very spoilable, but still about as dangerous
Surprise Kain Valvalis (FF4) vs. Redeemed Ghaleon (L2)
Bruiser Jade (BoF1) vs. Decelerated Divine Weapon (WA4)

Heavy

Underdrive TimeLord (Saga Frontier) vs. Beached Doomwhale Kyogre (Pokemon)
Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. Fall & Fire Don't Mix Holly (Wizard of Oz)- Oh boy, Holly gets to consistently eat 2 Counters a round while Divide ensures that Elc gets to stay around for a while.
Chivalrous Rika (PS4) vs. Non-explosive Jessica (DQ8)
PC Magus (CT) vs. Not hiding behind his so-called Goddess Billy (XG)
B-ending Riou (S2) vs. Type-1 Body T260G (Saga Frontier)
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Reasonable Rolf (PS2)- Yeah, Rolf is generally outclasses in the division in general.

Middle

Sniper Neimi vs. Chivalrous Alys Brangwin
Ether-drained MOMO (XS3) vs. Healer Yuna (FFX)- If MOMO is trying to win by building Stock and rushing, then Yuna's regen shouldn't really matter, right?
Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) vs. Dark Flier Sumia (FEA)
Insomniac Ness (EB) vs. Lightweight Hilda (SH3)
Sharon the Astraphobe (LoL2) vs. Pro-Life Nina (BoF2)
Hoarder Shadow (FF6) vs. Agni'd Myria (BoF)

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Bird Jesus Pidgeot (Pokemon)- Tiamat 2HKOs. Lowering Accuracy by 1 might buy Pidgeot an extra turn on average, but in the interim Pidgeot has been doing no damage. Mirror Move might work if Tiamat didn't resist Thunder.
Actually mute Crono (CT) vs. Abandoned Deus (XG)- Hitting the right defensive stat+50% Counter rate so Crono can't even really use the speed fully to his advantage.
Anti-Egyptian Reno 1 (FF7) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)
Super Trainee Amelia (FE8) vs. Doctor Feena (G1)- 3 shots of healing should probably tip it this way (although higher crit respect might help Amelia here).
Dauntless Sanaki (FE10) vs. Speedrun Jack (WAACF)- Yeah, Sanaki like 3HKOs. This will go well. Jack could do 1 damage on average, and Sanaki's Pdef would still let him win.
Flowing Sasarai (S3) vs. Diamond Mog (FF6)

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Classic Hrist (VP)
Pacifist Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Staff Girl Laura (FE10)- Gut reaction. Riki's Pdur is probably horrid so Laura is actually doing damage, and can regen like mad.
True Renaissance Man Serph (DDS) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA)- Damage is probably similar, but Tear's Stuns and she still has shitty healing (30% goes far when Serph has like 1/3 average damage)
Milon1 (FF4) vs. Eliwood, Pupil of Jagen (FE)

[Magic Fanatic]

Heavy

Underdrive TimeLord (Saga Frontier) vs. Beached Doomwhale Kyogre (Pokemon)
B-ending Riou (S2) vs. Type-1 Body T260G (Saga Frontier) - What the hell.  She's still Godlike, not Heavy.

Middle

Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) vs. Dark Flier Sumia (FEA)
Insomniac Ness (EB) vs. Lightweight Hilda (SH3) - Peach Bat EB Physicals 2HKO Ness and she only has four shots of it.  Ness has...  What, 18 shots of Lifeup Gamma like this?  And Slim can't do anything unless you allow Great Question of Slim.
Sharon the Astraphobe (LoL2) vs. Pro-Life Nina (BoF2) - Most of her dueling worth doesn't even involve Arrode anyway.
Hoarder Shadow (FF6) vs. Agni'd Myria (BoF) - Ness-like durability and damage.  Maybe even more of each.

Light

Anti-Egyptian Reno 1 (FF7) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Classic Hrist (VP)
Pacifist Riki (Saga Frontier) vs. Staff Girl Laura (FE10) - It just keeps on going and going and going and going and going and going- going for a damage caused over infinity tiebreak.

[SnowFire]

FWIW, changed my vote on Feena / Amelia.  Doesn't require crit hype either I don't think.  Either Zap Whip is close range and eats counters, or it's huge range and is MT enough to not double, letting Amelia get 2 attacks in.

MF, Myria's damage is actually extremely horrible, like 70 damage to 999 HP.  Shadow's damage can't possibly be that bad.  (It's just she lasts a zillion really fast turns anyway.) 

Speaking of which the existence of Agni, even if weighted at like 10% or something, does make me inclined to antihype rather than hype Jade physicals, for why I suspect I see Jade damage as weaker than Elecman's!  (Alternatively, maybe DW HP antihype, both are plausible enough.)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Zap Whip is ST unless I'm going crazy. And it's long range... kinda? Certainly it ignores position in Grandia (whereas basic physicals don't, and this matters because sometimes you won't be able to reach an enemy to hit them with normal physicals). Not sure how inclined I am to hype melee counters getting it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Edited in all my votes, except Yuna vs. MOMO. (Feel like analysing the match accounting for Regen, Snowfire?).

As I said in my votes, I do think that both T260G and Ted are too good for their respective divisions, for what it's worth.

[SnowFire]

For Zap Whip, my recollection is that you target one enemy, but it would hit other enemies nearby as well.  It's been a long time, I could be wrong!

I'll math out MOMO vs. Yuna more later, sure.  FFX Regen was on *your* turn, right?  e.g. it's better on Rikku than Auron?

[Dark Holy Elf]

The Zap Whip thing turned out not to matter, at least for me, anyway. Dat Feena pdur letting Amelia 2HKO her, rendering her healing useless.

FFX regen is based on the number of clockticks that pass. Specifically it heals 1/256 max HP every clocktick, with a raw 100 HP bonus every time anyone gets a turn. A "round" using FFX average speed is 22-23 clockticks, while Yuna's own turns come every 18 clockticks. So every round (assuming MOMO is roughly average speed longterm), Yuna regains about 8.8% HP from raw time and 3.25% every time anyone gets a turn, for a total of a bit over 15%. (Huh, higher than I figured, which is probably because the 100 HP bonuses actually matter on PC HP, and my regen notes deal with its behaviour on bosses.)

[SnowFire]

Yuna equips a Silenceward armor.  She casts Regen, Protect, Shell, Auto-Life on herself.  She deals ~133 damage with her physical, which is 0.007 PCHP to the vanilla damage average (usual 'Tidus/Kimahri arguably underrated' proviso), or .010 PCHP to the damage average including this new damage (a 40% leap in damage!), all ITD (which is bad, MOMO's defense is bad).  MOMO has .74 PCHP, so she's 74HKOed.

HOWEVER, now that Elf pointed out that Regen is a thing...  Reflect is no longer suicidal.  Let's say that MOMO goes for a stally "build up 3 boost bars then try to kill" strat.  Yuna drops Reflect on herself after she's fully buffed, which forces MOMO to fall back to slightly weaker physical attacks.  Swordfish deals .27 PCHP...  which is halved to .13 PCHP...  Yuna has .86 PCHP, so she regens ~.13 PCHP herself every round.  (This is assuming physical techs ignore evasion in XS3, which I forget if it's true or not.)  A buffing strat also doesn't really work as Yuna will just spam Dispel in response.  MOMO does have Frost Shock which will break the regen, but that's more a finisher.

Yuna isn't totally out of the woods.  She opens with...  Shell, I guess?  MOMO immediately spams Misty and hopes to break past Silenceward.  Let's say it misses turn 1 but will hit turn 2.  Yuna can now cast...  Regen?  Then get silenced for 5 turns.  MOMO starts unloading physical damage into this, but she gets .13 PCHP of "progress" a turn, and Yuna is faster than her...  MOMO needs 6-7 turns to kill here, so Silence will wear off.  She can of course attempt to reapply Silence, but this gives up some "progress" she made due to the regen.  And...  actually it's kinda moot, Misty is 26 EP and Swordfish is 18 EP and she only has 120, so she really needs the EP-less Freeze Shock to set up a killing combo post-Silence hitting, which means stalling for a long time, which means Yuna can set up Protect/Regen/Reflect which hoses MOMO.

So Yuna may have this after all.  Open to arguments.

[Dhyerwolf]

Amelia 2HKOs Feena? For that Amelia needs

1. AS not to scaled against enemy AS (obviously, as this makes Amelia much worse...just like this class would be in game!)
2. Feena to be 2HKOed by 24 FE damage (assuming that you take enemy Defense at 10 and res at 8). Assuming that average at 20/12 average is 25 (slightly below that per Pyro's topic, but there are some PCs that are notably above 20/12 in equal EXP). Meaning that Feena has to have like 76.8% Pdur. NEB has her at 77%...although at worst her HP is like 94%. I'm surprised that her defense is bad enough to take an extra 22% damage because Grandia defense is traditionally a joke stat. Are you assuming that it's divided by 2 and division defense NEB?
2a. I would not consider the gap between enemy Def and Res to be 2. Definitely 3 for me, and 4 has more merit than 2. Since Amelia is IMO, under the best circumstances, falling just short of 2HKO, anything extra just moves her slightly more out of range.
3. Not count Mana Egg stat gains you get in game (this makes Feena's PDur higher than NEB's 77% since it moves both her HP and defense closer to average).
4. Not actually truly relevant except as a barometer of actual competency, but Amelia (between doubling and damage) can't...even OHKO monsters in the final maps without special weapons, I believe? This is very indicative of what I would consider in game offensive ineptitude.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1. Yes, yes, we know you scale AS differently. Although, far be it for me to remind you about things about your view, but if you scale AS into damage you should scale it into durability as well (Last Hope swordmasters will certainly double the Garcia-tier speed PCs, heroes/mage knights may as well), making Amelia tankier, and... this is actually very problematic for Feena, see below.

2. I was assuming 1 def = 1 point of damage taken, yes. If you have more insight into how G1 Def works feel free to say! But I definitely remember the stat mattering, the def differences were considerably more notable than the HP differences. Granted, it was usually modifying an average boss damage of like 25-30% PCHP much of the time, of course, because Grandia 1, but still...

2a. I'm much more likely to close the Def/Res gap to zero than I am to expand it. The final chapter has a higher average enemy Res than Def (as does chapter 18 and probably 16, i.e. half of the final six maps), and almost every boss after your army promotes has more Res than Def, with the singular exception of Morva.

3. I used your stat topic's default averages for Grandia to calculate Feena's pdur.


For what it's worth I think Amelia may win even if she misses the 2HKO. She will still 3HKO with Iron + Iron + Silver (this almost kills average), and she shouldn't be doubled that way. While only 3HKOing gives Feena the ability to heal, I don't think it matters because Feena's damage positively drops off a cliff after the End of the World + two Zap Whips, and Amelia is notably average average pdur, and Feena can't heal very many times, nor is she fast enough to doubleturn at any point (in the CTB sense).


EDIT: Also, while not terribly relevant to the actual debate, I was curious about (4). Amelia with only storebought weapons can one-round wights, archmogalls, gorgons, and anything unfortunate enough to be unpromoted. She misses deathgoyles, maelduins, elder baels (so do all physical fighters), gwyllgis, and cyclopes (so does everyone else except bishops). She misses deathgoyles and dogs due to her speed, the rest due to her power. Is this below average overall for an FE8 unit? Yeah, I'd say so, but my views reflect this by having her have averagish power if she isn't afraid of doubles, and considerably below average damage if she is (and remember, average speed doubles her with silver, to my views). Note also that I don't respect her crit, which actually gives her an okay chance to kill some of the enemies I listed.

[SnowFire]

Dhyer: Hmm?  Amelia, especially Super Trainee Amelia, has below average AS, but AS sufficient to double most of the enemies on the NM final map I'd assume (HM *maybe* not).  Those should be the types of characters that most benefit from Dhyerviews, right?  (Characters who don't double everyone see their damage plunge, and fast characters who usually double according to conventional views see their damage plummet as doubling isn't so special any more.)

Grandia defense antihype might sway my vote, sure, but as a reminder defense is a relatively more potent stat vs. FE multiattackers (at least if FE's subtractive nature is in any way ported).  My usual assumption was that it was Grandia *buffs* that were bad not the defense itself, but could be convinced otherwise.  I am willing to consider gains from magic, sure, but I also wouldn't consider L99 Water & Earth in a normal playthrough to be in any way reasonable, so I'd probably give everyone more like 30 of everything, which would probably balance out.

Ninja'd by Elf.  Well I'm totally not with Elf on Def = Res (I'm much more willing to count by enemy *type* which doesn't reward multiples being on the final map, and nearly every enemy type in the game has much higher Def than Res), and I'd definitely see Feena doubling Amelia with anything short of a Slim Lance (which is indeed what Amelia will equip going into the battle solely to bait out End of the World then), but Amelia also has the X-factor that even if she barely misses a Silver 2HKO, she can still YOLO go for 2x Killer Lance hits which each have >50% probability of hitting, and crit + non-crit should be fatal too.  A strong tiebreak in her favor, anyway.

[Dark Holy Elf]

(I'm much more willing to count by enemy *type* which doesn't reward multiples being on the final map, and nearly every enemy type in the game has much higher Def than Res)

Okay, sure thing. Even if we ignore bosses, grabbing each random enemy from its highest-level appearance and rounding down the difference if it's a half of a point in all cases...

Druid -8
General +9
Hero +7
Swordmaster 0
Warrior +6
Great Knight +9
Paladin +4
Ranger +4
Sage -10
Valkyrie -10
Mage Knight -7
Sniper 0

Y'know what, valkyries are rare enough, let's just toss 'em out. That leaves the gap as... +1.27 defence, when averaged out. (With valkyries included, the average drops to "a fraction of a point".) For monsters:

Wight (Melee) 0
Wight (Bow) +1
Entombed -1
Maelduin +4
Elder Bael +6
Gwyllgi 0
Deathgoyle +9
Archmogall -9
Gorgon -10
Cyclops +12

Again, an average of +1.2, and that's counting Cyclopes fully, which I think there's a pretty good case to not do (they exist only on one story map, and their durability is so high you usually just nuke them with sacred twins).

All that without even considering bosses, which, as mentioned, all but uniformly have more Res. I really don't know think the gap should even be 2 points, and there's no way in hell it should be higher.