Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!

[AndrewRogue]

And time is up.

##Unvote: Otter
##Vote: Excal

[Luther Lansfeld]

HAMMER stop talking.

Vanilla townie Excal was lynched!

[Sierra]

Final votecount:

Excal (5): Otter, Corwin, Ryogo, Hunter Sopko, AndrewRogue
Hunter Sopko (1): OblivionKnight
Otter (2): Sir Alex, AndrewRogue, Excal
Sir Alex (0): Ryogo

It was the Frenchman, Claude Debussy, who began the third day's discussion, initiating the topic that would dominate the day's arguments and eventually determine the nature of its end: "We may as well get right back to business, no? This fellow calling himself Excal. Everyone's been suspicious of him since day one, so why have we put off action for so long? I say we needn't waste any more time. Away with him!"

Murmurs of agreement rippled through the crowd, a few shouts of "Yeah!" and one of "Anyway, how much can he help us if he's drunk all the time?" being heard as well.

Excal--better known to the world as Modest Mussorgsky--was slow to respond to the accusations made against him, and unable to respond to his accusers' questions to their satisfaction (in part because of a raging hangover, which did not help his image in the slightest). Beset on all sides, the wild Russian raised a fist over his head and let out a mighty howl--and it was at this point that a house on chicken legs stormed through the crowd, stooped down just long enough for the composer to climb aboard, and then took off with great leaping strides towards the border. Conductors and pianists scattered in its wake as the house clambered towards the void at the edge of Composer's Heaven--only to topple into space towards the iniquitous den of chicken-pickin' banjo music the crowd had meant to exile him to anyway.

He may not have avoided the fate planned for him by his tormentors but, as in life, Mussorgsky just had to meet every challenge on his own terms.

Excal, AKA Modest Mussorgsky, 1839-1881 (Vanilla townie) was lynched!

Night actions, you must send them.

[Sierra]

Tossing this up right before I run off to work, so not time for flavor text:

AndrewRogue, AKA Johann Sebastian Bach, 1685-1750 (Vanilla townie) was killed overnight!

Hunter Sopko, AKA Arnold Schoenberg, 1874-1951 (Scum godfather) disappeared overnight.

Mod's note: Soppy pulled out due to declining interest in the game. Andy was the actual nightkill.

It is now day four. With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

There are 72 hours remaining.

[Shale]

Three days, three modkills. Yeesh. At least we get the benefit of this one.

Time to reread Soppy's posts, especially Days 1 and 2. Let's see what he and Tom were up to...

[OblivionKnight]

...the modkills are a bit disturbing.  It's honestly reminding me a bit of Random Mafia right now >_>

I think mafia is getting a bit worn down here, as an aside.  I think I'm definitely putting mine on hold for a bit.  People look like they need to break a bit.  But anyway...

Ok, was definitely right on Sopko.  LaL is the way to go.  Sad about being wrong on Excal, but...damn did he put out some bad tells.  Granted, I think he has done that thing where he called to nuke himself in the past on some games, come to think of it - and was town all those times.  Andy was town, so that leaves only a couple people left to analyze.  LaL time. 

As a note, I'm going to be in and out today and tomorrow, and gone until later on Saturday, but I will be around a bit.  Otter deserves a bit of a look at again, as well.  Probably only 1 scum left.  Let's win this.

I'll take a look at Otter in a bit more depth, as promised to Shale, though Ryogo still bears attention. 

[Corwin]

So I'm not alone in feeling like taking a break from mafia. Nice to hear, just as it's nice to see a validation of LAL, even though it wasn't through actually employing it. More later tonight, once I've crossreferenced the remaining lurkers with Sopko's posts.

[Ranmilia]

As we are not in LYLO, there is one scum left. 
Index of (what I feel are) important contentful Sopko posts, plus posts of other people that substantially mention and relate to him.

Day 1:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13326#msg13326 - +scum OK, questions Otter.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13337#msg13337 - Otter's reply
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13357#msg13357 - Otter's next post
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13372#msg13372 - Soppy's verdict.  Big +scum Otter here as Soppy removes pressure vote and immediately agrees with Otter's case.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13416#msg13416 - questions Ryogo, defends Otter.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13428#msg13428 - +scum OK - this is actually Sopko's last substantive post of the day.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13517#msg13517 - post from Ryogo, +scum

Day 2 starts with a lot of small posts supporting the case on Keeshi, then:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13756#msg13756 - defends Otter
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13828#msg13828 - brief spur with Ryogo

Day 3:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13973#msg13973 - Otter votes Excal, calls Soppy to talk.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13985#msg13985 - response
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13989#msg13989 - Otter continues, couple more posts like this one too.  All about Sopko's choice to vote Tom.
---- note that this point on is after I started gunning for Otter.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg14080#msg14080 - strongly defends Otter.  Also mentions Corwin for... first time all game since maybe early D1?
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg14219#msg14219 - speaks on Ryogo and Corwin
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg14270#msg14270 - Otter cites his earlier conversation with Sopko as proof that he isn't mono-focused.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg14286#msg14286 -  OK votes Sopko, an untenable lynch candidate for the day, out of nowhere and LAL.
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg14326#msg14326 - wants town to go after the people he called out (Ryogo and Corwin, presumably) after mislynching Excal.

Things of note:
- That's a whole lotta defending Otter, BEFORE attacking Otter was popular as well as after, plus two conversations (one on day 1, the other on day 3) that appear possibly staged as the two play off each other.  Out of everyone left alive, Sopko talks about Otter by far the most, and never in a negative light except for his day 1 pressurevote.
- Ryogo's the person he talks the next most about.  Some moderately scummy-looking interplay day 1, then Sopko cites him along with Corwin as a case to go to after Excal.  OK has a similar number of mentions and looks about equally bad, and bizzarely votes Sopko at day 3 end. 
- Corwin has basically no mentions at all till the day 3 callout.
- Shale has *no* substantial mentions, and I have none except in relation to the Keeshi case.  This makes Shale look better to me.

Sopko voluntarily leaving the game throws a bit of a WIFOM wrench into his lategame behavior, depending on when exactly he planned to bow out.
I'm meaning the Ryogo/Corwin push here mainly. 

For now, though?  Otter heavily stands out in Sopko post analysis.  Plus everything I said about him yesterday remains true.  I'm feelin pretty solid on him.
##Vote: Otter

[Corwin]

Hmm. Alex beat me to the links.

Sopko talks about Otter a lot, and about OK, as Alex says. Ryogo, however, appears to feature more prominently from a read of Sopko's posts. Sopko keeps on going about Ryogo's apparent 'flipping' and his lurking habits. It actually stuck in my head more than the Otter material, perhaps due to the way Sopko is pretty much saying the same things over and over by phrasing them differently, and presenting minimal to no evidence for his attacks on Ryogo. I have to question whether Alex saw the Otter case more prominently because he's been on Otter's case for a while, now, and has acquired a kind of tunnelvision there.

Ryogo's the person he talks the next most about. 

I suppose if you go by absolute text, this is true, but I am interested in hearing about the impression other people got from reading Sopko's posts from the start of the game.

On myself. At first, I figured Alex was right, since the attack on me the previous day came out of nowhere. However, actually perusing Sopko's posts reminded me that he did try to get on my case before, only to realize he couldn't pin anything on me and eventually backing off. He didn't mention me day 2, that is true, but day 2 was decided by Keeshi's cop claim and a fairly decisive Tom lynch early on. Since one of the things Sopko was guilty of was lurking, I'm not sure why it warranted a 'thing of note' to you. I especially wonder how you missed his focus on me day 1 when you say:

- Corwin has basically no mentions at all till the day 3 callout.

In fact, he doesn't mention you much either, Alex, but when he does it's often say he disagrees with you, either directly or indirectly. The links, in reserve chronological order:

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg14326#msg14326 ("I really can't say that Tom's flip inherantly clears Excal." in a clearly opposite position to you one you took)
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13714#msg13714 ("Yeah, when you're down to arguing about the definition of words, you're really starting to grasp at straws.")
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13428#msg13428 ("Al: I'm not really seeing your argument. Should have probably made your post a bit clearer.")
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13416#msg13416 ("Wait... what? Alex, while I agree with you in theory, if you don't believe anyone is scummy, you need to go with you who think is least town-like, who with whomever might put forth the best argument.")

It's hardly every post, and there is one where he agrees with people who include Alex to vote for Keeshi, but after reading Sopko's posts in sequence and not spread out as they are, it feels like he's trying to create a sense of distance from Alex by finding reasons to disagree with him publicly.

Just as Alex asked with Tom re: Excal previously, I would like to hear from people feel about the case on Otter now, given the Sopko flip. Myself, I'm wary of joining a case which is being advocated by someone who doesn't look all that great to me, especially with this latest post.

As we are not in LYLO, there is one scum left.

This is true (obviously), but I have to wonder: is Alex dropping this obvious mention of it not being LYLO to get us to be freer with our votes? If we go 'well, Excal was scummy-looking but town, we must vote the other prominent candidate from the previous day' and we actually do that without sufficient debate to allow for information from Sopko's flip and an analysis of his posts (which everyone should do for themselves!) then we could find outselves in LYLO if we're wrong. And if Otter is the remaining scum? Well, then we win today if we lynch him, so what's wrong with taking a bit more time to think things through rationally?

[Ryogo]

Alright, so we were on the right track with getting on the "Sopko's gotta post more stuff" trail. That's good. Looking through the posts that Alex has posted, I agree with a lot of his notes, and that I can see the logic used in thinking that Corwin and I look scummy. I've agreed with him on a number of things. That's just because, well, I do agree with him. Even I can see, looking back, that it kinda makes us look scum-ish though. But like you said, there's only one scum left. And I will defend to the death/CMT banishing that I am not scum. I'm straight up town.

Otter is mentioned an odd number of times by Sopko, which draws a fair bit of suspicion towards him from me as well. And yes, I'm next in that count. But most are also because I called him out for not posting/questioned him.

Also, just out of curiosity, what about my post on day one do you find scummy? That I unvoted Sopko? I talked about you? I'd just like to know, that's all.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Cor.

The only read I got from Sopko's posts was that they were short, almost to the point he was hiding something. Otter's mentioned a lot, I don't know if that means much, but I do find it suspicious. There's no way that I'm going to cast the vote less than 12 hours into the day though. Some more analysis is needed, and some more time to think.

I've been suspicious of Alex for a while, and I still don't want to fully trust him. Like I said, he seemed very lurker-ish for the longest time, and then after seeing something he could pounce on, went to town on it. I personally found it quite strange, and I still feel the same way about the stuff. Everyone else, I dont feel any suspicions about, now that both Andrew and Sopko are gone.

[Ranmilia]

Ryogo:  Unvoting Sopko, making a laundry list of people you found scummy, but not placing another vote for any of them.

It's not exactly a secret that I prefer getting things done to waiting around arbitrarily and unproductively under the label of "time to think."  Why?  See the end of day 1.  Action creates more action.  We've got more than enough to discuss. 

[Sierra]

Current votecount:

Otter (1): Sir Alex

With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

There are 61.25 hours remaining.

[Shale]

##Vote: Otter[/b]

You haven't been completely lurking Otter, but your content is lacking. What's your stand on things now?

First off...

##Unvote: Otter

More than satisfying effort. Put into words the strange feeling I was having about Excal's argument before. It's the start of a faulty argument and lead to a series of mis-steps on Excal's part. This usually isn't very good, and really makes me lean on Excal for a more adequate defense than "Well, you can't really suspect that of little ol' me" (in so many words). So...

##Vote: Excal

As for Ryogo, it was a standard prod vote, really. Otter did some decent stuff the first 24 hours, but for most of today until his post at 11PM he didn't post much. Just wanted to make sure he didn't fall off the radar. Rat even mentioned him in this:

post, and everyone focused on OK and Excal. Figured it was worth bringing Otter back up.

Otterwise, this is the exchange that jumps out the most at me. Some token-looking suspicion, followed by fawning over his case on Excal, which Soppy ended up sticking to for a good while (granted, he wasn't the only one). Definitely at least a possible link between the two.

What gives me pause is that he never acts like this with regards to Tom. He first mentions Tom at all on Day 2, and then he's calling Keeshi's pre-claim pressure on him "a good argument" and "one of the only really observant things she's said all day when you seperate out all of her defense work."

[Shale]

And speaking of which, on looking over Tom's posts, it's mutual. He addresses Sopko all of once, and it's very much in brief:

Hunter Sopko, I disagree with you. Carthrat has made his points against OK, and they're good ones (well, at least in my opinion). I'd like to see OK's response before I go any further on it though.

I do think we should be considering scum not talking to each other as a possible tell.

[Shale]

Okay, going through all his posts, of the surviving players the person Soppy discusses the least is, by far, OK.

On day 1, he defends him against the (really quite weird, I have to agree) charge of Helping a Newbie In The First Degree:

I'm not as sure on OK.

He seems to be just being a cautious and helpful townie. I think it's being a little paranoid to say offering advice is scummy. Plus, since when are second chances bad? One mistake from a person shouldn't be enough to doom him. It's the repeated and blatant slipups/scumtells that lead to scum. Focusing on one mistake is like playing Russian Roulette and is usually more a scum tactic than anything.

Then he talks about OK in reaction to a Carthrat post but doesn't actually address him (and, again, defends him). Drops out for the remainder of Day 1, avoiding entirely the part where OK becomes a major vote-getter. Then, on Day 2, his only post that actually deals with something OK said (there's a bit of what-if with votes for Excal and OK) is this:

Ninja'd by OK: She did breadcrumb a bit, but her notes on Tom got sidetracked by going over the madness of yesterday, it seems.

On Day 3, we get this:

For OK, going over Day 1, it looks like the first people Tom jumped on were Rat, Ryogo and Excal (in http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13208#msg13208).

and this:

Indifferent to OK's theories. I knew that bringing those two up would be calling the kettle black, but I felt it needed to be done anyway.

And that's it. In the entire game, there's exactly one comment about OK's style of play, and it's implied - "calling the kettle black."

Tom also has just one post with an OK focus, but, I admit, it's a doozy:

Argh, I've been typing this post for a while now, and I keep getting ninja'd/distracted/etc

Corwin: I already answered that. I never tried to take credit for Rat's theory; I was agreeing with the points against OK, which gave Rat town cred in my books. Andrew seems to think they're scum bussing each other. That's the gut part: that I don't believe they're bussing. Please read my posts properly instead of misrepresenting my intentions.

Ryogo, I could say the same of you. Please show me where I said that, because I never said x + y = scum. If you think I did, show me, but you'll only find that I said I didn't believe both Rat and OK were scum. But... where the hell did he go? It's been ages since he last posted, not since before all this. If this keeps up, I'll be willing to reconsider. Where'd you go OK?

Anyway, now that I've answered the questions asked of me, time to move onto the pressing issues at hand.

<->

You're missing my point.  Go back and read my posts carefully.  The only thing no lynch is preferable to is random lynch.

Sorry Alex, you're right. When I skimmed over it briefly the first time, it really did sound like you were advocating a no-lynch. Mainly because of:

If you honestly do not think anyone is scummy, vote no lynch.

But then I read:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13437#msg13437
And after carefully re-reading your arguments, I realise what you're driving at.
Keeshi's sidetracking is definately not a good town strategy and doesn't benefit town. And voting based on something other than scummyness? Definately bad.
I think there's a further problem with Keeshi's Andrew vote though; Voting for his posting restriction will give us nothing about Keeshi's motivations on flip. It's an easy way to slide on a vote without any backlash. It's the kind of thing Rat slammed Excal for because it lacks accountability. Also, Andrew has been putting out some very decent attempts at content even though his access is restricted, so... I'm not really seeing Keeshi's reasoning here.

<->

Ugh, now to try and make something of this Otter/Excal thing. From what I can see on a first read-through, Otter is jumping on Excal's flip-flopping, saying that he's contradicting himself (again) and Excal is saying Otter scares away new players (?) and is misrepresenting him, and then refusing to defend himself from Otter's accusations. I'm going to have to read through this some more first to make sense of it.


So far though, Excal and Keeshi are topping my list for day 1 vote options, and I'll probably be laying one down in my next post.

The "Carthrat and OK can't both be scum" thing was weird then and it's weird now; I'll take a stab at deconstructing it when it's not 1:30 in the morning anymore, but for now I wanted to get something out there. Other viewpoints welcome.

[Shale]

Actually, no, I lied there. The surviving player he talks to the least is me - looking over the notes I just made, he doesn't address me at all, ever (mentions I exist a few times, mainly to do with my dustup with Excal on Day 1). I didn't think to tally that one up because, well, I'm not suspicious of me. If people want to look at me more closely because of that, go for it. I also admit that it may poke a hole or two in my "look for the person the scum interact with least" idea.

[Ranmilia]

Thaaaaat would be why I haven't posted responding to that theory, Shale.  It kinda points to you.  And me.  I think Soppy talks about me less substantially than he does about OK, though of course that's subjective.  The posts Corwin linked are basically it - and furthermore none of those directly address me or my (actual) play.  He goes after Excal, mildly disagrees with me on Keeshi, agrees with me on Keeshi, and the last post quoted is Sopko soapboxing on the false "Alex supports No Lynch" tangent.   (All right, that last one addresses my play... but I wasn't actually supporting No Lynch.)

I don't think this shows a pattern of disagreeing with me.  I don't think it shows *anything*, or rather, I think it shows nothing and a lack of connection or conversation.  I do agree that Sopko and Tom didn't talk to each other at all, but I don't think the whole scum team would be totally disconnected from each other, so I'm not expecting the same to be true of their scumbuddy.  It also helps that there are two people he barely mentioned and I happen to know one is town.  Shale therefore also looks pretty good to me right now.

As for Otter, I think it's fairly clear on post history read that Sopko talks about him far more than anyone else alive.  Including Ryogo.  I'm not sure how Cor thinks otherwise but I definitely do not agree.  Mind you, I also can't say that Sopko talking about him the most makes him scummy by itself - but it stands out from the pack, and everything that I found scummy about Otter yesterday remains very true today.  If anything more so since we now have absolute proof that the guy he lasergunned the whole game was town.  I'm looking forward to reading his thoughts on today.  (Sneak Preview:  "Well, Excal was scummy and had it coming, Tom's posts didn't clear him!" =/= enough)

[Otter]

I don't think this shows a pattern of disagreeing with me.  I don't think it shows *anything*, or rather, I think it shows nothing and a lack of connection or conversation.  I do agree that Sopko and Tom didn't talk to each other at all, but I don't think the whole scum team would be totally disconnected from each other, so I'm not expecting the same to be true of their scumbuddy.  It also helps that there are two people he barely mentioned and I happen to know one is town.  Shale therefore also looks pretty good to me right now.

More fallacy.  Shale's clear to you because... Sopko and Tom were totally disconnected, therefore you assume that the final scumbuddy couldn't have been similarly disconnected, therefore Shale's town because he's disconnected from Sopko and Tom, just like you are, and you know you're clear so he must be clear too?  Your assumptions here are ridiculous and I don't buy your "I don't think the whole scum team could possibly be acting disconnected" assertion from the beginning.

As for Otter, I think it's fairly clear on post history read that Sopko talks about him far more than anyone else alive.  Including Ryogo.  I'm not sure how Cor thinks otherwise but I definitely do not agree.  Mind you, I also can't say that Sopko talking about him the most makes him scummy by itself - but it stands out from the pack, and everything that I found scummy about Otter yesterday remains very true today.  If anything more so since we now have absolute proof that the guy he lasergunned the whole game was town.  I'm looking forward to reading his thoughts on today.  (Sneak Preview:  "Well, Excal was scummy and had it coming, Tom's posts didn't clear him!" =/= enough)

Excal was blatantly scummy and had it coming.  Tom's posts didn't clear him and you're trying to railroad that issue through repetition.  No matter how many times you say it, your Excal-clearing "logic" was incredibly weak and relied on the fact that Tom seemed to go after him (in an extremely token way, with no commitment whatsoever) earlier in the game.  You're using the fact that Excal flipped town to justify your logic, but this doesn't work; the logic was bad regardless of the result.  In fact, let's apply that logic again: I dogged Sopko for clarification about his "We don't lose anything by lynching him" comment, which raised a small red flag for me, and when he was evasive I pressed him for details.  Does this clear me?  I don't think you'd say so.

That you acted so sure of Excal being town despite the weakness of your reasoning makes me think you were sure.  You were sure he was a townie, in the same way that you were sure Tom was scum when you bravely offered to hammer him quickly (despite the fact that your whole case was on Keeshi=scum, which made Tom=scum an extremely unlikely prospect at that point, from your perspective).  You knew Excal looked incredibly scummy and wasn't actually cleared by anything, and you knew he was very likely to eat a lynch for it, but you knew it'd wind up a mislynch so you came up with a bogus reason for opposing the lynch in order to look good today.  I think you're scum, Alex, because it explains all of your weak reasoning over the course of the game.

However.  We're at six players with one scum, and this means we've got two lynches remaining.  If we mislynch, we're at 4 players and it's LYLO, which means we're in trouble.  This means I really don't want to get mislynched, even if that means withdrawing from the game via modkill; if that happens, we're at 5 players, and we've still got two lynches remaining, and neither one has to be spent mislynching me.  If I'm really the top suspect today, and it looks like I am, then I'm worth more to town dead than alive, if only to narrow the field, because losing me doesn't mean losing a day.  Plus, heck; I think it's Alex, but I'd like town to have more than one shot at this (I was wrong about Excal, after all), and we're not gonna get that second chance if I get mislynched here.  We will get that second chance if I'm gone, and both lynch choices will be made easier by the smaller field.

I'll await comments on this; I'm nominating myself as the one to withdraw in order to narrow the field because 1) I've already got a vote on me and 2) I've been real busy for unrelated reasons all of a sudden, which is why this is my first post today.

[OblivionKnight]

oK, i APOLOGIZE FOR DROPPING THE BALL today a bit.  And yesterday.  I've been busier at home than I thought I would be.  Got multiple calls about things I have to do and fun crap like that.  I'll be back later tonight to mix things up a bit I swear - being home with my family has been busier than I expected. 

What I will say now is that LaL is still the way to go - Otter's saying we have 2 chances with 1 scum left.  I don't like the notes where he wants to modkill himself to give town another chance (that...strikes me as very much the same thing as Excal was saying), but...well, that doesn't necessarily mean he' scum?  I'm trying to follow that logic a bit.  I do agree that while Excal to me looked a bit better yesterday, he still looked scummy - his actions were craptacular, particularly the "kill myself thing".  Which is why it disturbs me a bit Otter said something similar. 

Ryogo is still at the tops of my list for the lurkerness - he's had some of the same issues Sopko had (weakish stances, lurking, etc.).  While being new is an issue, I don't think that clears him.  Granted, I want to look over him more - there's a lot of colouring him with his newness, day 1, etc. that I need to analyze.  And I need to look at Otter more, too - I don't have huge suspicions of him based on the past, but his recent post...is Excalish, but that doesn't mean he's scum.  Still...

I'll be back later to look at this some more.   

[Shale]

Otter: If you really want to...well, if you're telling the truth, it would give us someone new to look at. We've also managed to stop one nightkill somehow, and if that lightning strikes twice it would give us an extra lynch too...not really something to count on, though.

Ryogo has definitely been lurkish, and has a lot of interactions with the scum. They didn't seem all that friendly toward him, though. Of course, given their level of interaction with each other it's hard to say how they'd deal with a scumbuddy they actually talked to.

[Sierra]

Current votecount:

Otter (1): Sir Alex

With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

There are 37 hours remaining.

[Otter]

OK: Excal offered to hammer himself.  This was scummy and I'm not doing that.  I'm offering to withdraw from the game because we've got two lynches to spend right now, and if I withdraw, we've still got two lynches to spend; it wouldn't hurt town badly to lose me that way, since it doesn't change how many days we've got left.  It -would- hurt town very badly to lynch me, as that would put us in LYLO instantly (with 4 remaining players).  Plus, with the narrower field, you'd have better odds of hitting scum in those two lynches.  I'm offering to do what's best for town here.

[Otter]

And oh yeah, just to clarify who I think is scum at this point, although if I withdraw it won't matter where my vote was placed:

##VOTE: Alex

[Ranmilia]

Oi.  So I'm sick and have been sleeping all today.  Hopefully won't affect game, just a heads up anyhow.

More fallacy.  Shale's clear to you because... Sopko and Tom were totally disconnected, therefore you assume that the final scumbuddy couldn't have been similarly disconnected, therefore Shale's town because he's disconnected from Sopko and Tom, just like you are, and you know you're clear so he must be clear too?  Your assumptions here are ridiculous and I don't buy your "I don't think the whole scum team could possibly be acting disconnected" assertion from the beginning.

Pretty much, yes.  I'm assuming the final scumbuddy is not likely to be totally disconnected.  I know I'm clear, so Shale probably is, too.  I don't see how this is ridiculous.

Excal was blatantly scummy and had it coming.  Tom's posts didn't clear him and you're trying to railroad that issue through repetition.  No matter how many times you say it, your Excal-clearing "logic" was incredibly weak and relied on the fact that Tom seemed to go after him (in an extremely token way, with no commitment whatsoever) earlier in the game.  You're using the fact that Excal flipped town to justify your logic, but this doesn't work; the logic was bad regardless of the result.  In fact, let's apply that logic again: I dogged Sopko for clarification about his "We don't lose anything by lynching him" comment, which raised a small red flag for me, and when he was evasive I pressed him for details.  Does this clear me?  I don't think you'd say so.

Blatantly scummy?  Yes.  Had it coming?  Not after day 2.  Tom's posts did clear him and I've outlined exactly why many times now - Tom seriously supported lynching Excal early on, with commitment, not a token stance, and people scum support seriously lynching early on are most likely town.  This is good logic.  I don't see how your conversation with Sopko is anything alike.  You didn't seriously support lynching him. 

That you acted so sure of Excal being town despite the weakness of your reasoning makes me think you were sure.  You were sure he was a townie, in the same way that you were sure Tom was scum when you bravely offered to hammer him quickly (despite the fact that your whole case was on Keeshi=scum, which made Tom=scum an extremely unlikely prospect at that point, from your perspective).  You knew Excal looked incredibly scummy and wasn't actually cleared by anything, and you knew he was very likely to eat a lynch for it, but you knew it'd wind up a mislynch so you came up with a bogus reason for opposing the lynch in order to look good today.  I think you're scum, Alex, because it explains all of your weak reasoning over the course of the game.

Darn right I was sure Excal was town, a genuine-acting scum was trying to get him lynched.  You're skipping over the part where I pointed out that Tom was also quite possibly scum, since even if Keeshi was also scum there was a decent possibility of her selling out a buddy for credibility. 

Your entire case is still repeating "Excal was scummy, Tom's behavior didn't clear him and saying it did is stupid!"  Which is untrue and at this point we're just going back and forth. 

However.  We're at six players with one scum, and this means we've got two lynches remaining.  If we mislynch, we're at 4 players and it's LYLO, which means we're in trouble.  This means I really don't want to get mislynched, even if that means withdrawing from the game via modkill; if that happens, we're at 5 players, and we've still got two lynches remaining, and neither one has to be spent mislynching me.  If I'm really the top suspect today, and it looks like I am, then I'm worth more to town dead than alive, if only to narrow the field, because losing me doesn't mean losing a day.  Plus, heck; I think it's Alex, but I'd like town to have more than one shot at this (I was wrong about Excal, after all), and we're not gonna get that second chance if I get mislynched here.  We will get that second chance if I'm gone, and both lynch choices will be made easier by the smaller field.

I'll await comments on this; I'm nominating myself as the one to withdraw in order to narrow the field because 1) I've already got a vote on me and 2) I've been real busy for unrelated reasons all of a sudden, which is why this is my first post today.

From a pure win-the-game perspective I'd love for this to happen, since you're either the last scum or town playing terribly.  From a more realistic perspective, this tactic is cheating (albeit protown cheating) and I don't think it should be allowed.

From an analysis perspective?  I think you have no intention of actually doing it, and are mentioning it to make yourself sound more credible and 'willing to help the town' while still having no substance or taking any other stances.  You're still sticking to "Excal was scummy, lynch him!" and now throwing in "Lynch the people who objected to lynching him, because they couldn't possibly know otherwise without being scum!"  And accusing me of bad logic?  Yeah. 

[Otter]

From an analysis perspective?  I think you have no intention of actually doing it, and are mentioning it to make yourself sound more credible and 'willing to help the town' while still having no substance or taking any other stances.  You're still sticking to "Excal was scummy, lynch him!" and now throwing in "Lynch the people who objected to lynching him, because they couldn't possibly know otherwise without being scum!"  And accusing me of bad logic?  Yeah.

Excal was scummy (even you admit this) and Tom's vote very early in the day (when he had plenty of chance to change it later, knowing hammer wasn't gonna fall in the first few hours; oh, and immediately afterwards he was setting up to change to Keeshi) didn't override his scumtells at all.  You're still trying to repeat your argument ("Tom's posts did clear him and I've outlined exactly why many times now") until people start taking it as a given, which would work better if it weren't flawed.  Your ongoing certainty that he was town in spite of this is telling about your role here, I think.

From a more realistic perspective, this tactic is cheating (albeit protown cheating) and I don't think it should be allowed.

As is the fact that you don't want me doing what I'm doing here.

---

Okay, sounds like there aren't any serious objections.  Alex is continuing to press for my lynch, and we don't have so much time that we can afford to sit around thinking about this if we're going to get an actual, well-reasoned lynch in later.

Is it protown cheating?  Kinda, yeah, but other people have been dropping out via modkill all game.  Doing it deliberately in order to help my team can't be a worse thing than what Soppy did, which was to abandon his own team at significant expense to his remaining buddy.  And it's not a system that can really be abused further than what I'm doing; if anybody else wanted to drop out this way, it'd cost town a lynch and thrust us into immediate LYLO.  The remaining scum might complain (and in fact I think he already has), but he probably wasn't complaining too much when our newly-cleared cop, after legitimately surviving the night without getting nightkilled and undoubtedly holding a brand new result for us, ate a modkill due to IRL stuff.  It goes both ways.  If it can hurt us that badly, why not have it help us a little?

Therefore I am formally requesting modkill.  I'm busy with school right now and couldn't supply more than a token presence.  When Cid sees this, I ask that he remove me as a player.