Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!

[Otter]

Oh, my bad, I thought we had till eight.  Guess it really was too late.  Two hours from Cid's post is... already up.  Damn.

[Otter]

Or, no, direct word from Cid is that we have till eight!  Ten minutes!  If people are in fact alive (I know Keeshi is!) there's no reason that wouldn't be enough time.

[Ghen]

If we CAN lynch Excal, that would be my preference over OK.  I don't really feel either lynch, but I feel less sure about OK's than I do about Excal's.  Right now all I'm seeing are those of us who voted for Excal online in the Who's Online section of the website.

[Sierra]

Mod's note: Yeah, you've got another ten minutes or so before I wrap things up for the day. Giving a little extra because I hate to see a day end without a lynch, but things *will* come to a close by eight PM EST.

[Carthrat]

I just got up and seriously do not have time to read up and push my vote around properly (wtf, I thought I was voting for Keeshi, though. -_-)

Any decision I make with... 7 minutes to go? Is going to be uninformed on the latest developments at best. I guess at this point I'd rather lynch Excal than OK, owing to what I remember of Otter's case against him being rather strong. But frankly I'll lynch anyone. Who's around? (How did people fail so badly?)

#Unvote: OK
##Vote: Excal

[Carthrat]

Except I DID only just notice Keeshi's vote for OK. Ugh. I remember being in a position very much like this before...

Look, who else is around? I'm getting frantic.

[Ghen]

That puts us at, I believe,

Excal: 5
OK: 5

I can move my vote back to Excal, but we'd still be 1 under.  If someone else is around to put us at 7, though, I would change back.

[Carthrat]

Didn't you say just then that you'd prefer an Excal lynch over OK? should switch NOW and such.

[Ghen]

Yes, but if I switch, we'd still be at 6, no lynch.  if no one is around but those of us voting for Excal, our only hope to get ANY lynch would seem to be you and Otter moving here.  Unless I'm wrong and anyone out there would like to vote Excal.

[Ghen]

Guys, we're technically past even our extended deadline.  If you're holding out for someone to help us lynch Excal, how long do you intend to wait?  Or do we go no lynch and hope for the best tomorrow rather than attempt to get the lynch on OK?

[Carthrat]

Keeshi, we need *someone else* on either side of the lynch train to get involved and switch their vote. It's clear we're both willing to get a lynch out there regardless of if it's OK or Excal. Anyone around and not doing so (like, say, Otter) is, to my mind, tacitly supporting no lynch. That's not cool.

[Sierra]

Time's up. No decision seems forthcoming, so I'm not inclined to be more lenient.

Final votecount:

AndrewRogue (0): Otter, Excal, Keeshi
Carthrat (0): Ryogo, Shale, AndrewRogue
Corwin (0): Ryogo
EvilTom (0): Keeshi, AndrewRogue
Excal (5): Hunter Sopko, Sir Alex, Otter, Hunter Sopko, Keeshi, Shale, ObliviongKnight, Carthrat
Hunter Sopko (0): Ryogo, Corwin
Keeshi (1): Otter, OblivionKnight, Sir Alex, Excal
Otter (0): OblivionKnight, Hunter Sopko
OblivionKnight (5): Corwin, Carthrat, Corwin, Ryogo, AndrewRogue, Excal, Keeshi
Ryogo (0): AndrewRogue, Carthrat, Excal
Shale (0): EvilTom, Sir Alex
Smodge (0): Hunter Sopko, Ryogo, Excal, Corwin

Day ends in a stalemate. Those of you with night actions to send, please do so.

[Sierra]

The day wore on and on, and no one was able to convince the crowd of a suspect's guilt. Doubts were raised about the one called Chopin, what with his connection to that disturbingly modern medium, the "videogame," but in the end it came to naught. When night came (as even up in the aether there is day and night), the composers broke up and went their separate ways, mentally exhausted from the day's arguments.

When they gathered again in the morning, they were alarmed to discover that they numbered one less than they had the day before. And Heaven was a little less tuneful for it.

Carthrat, AKA Pyotr Ilyich Tchaichovsky, 1840-1893 (Vanilla townie) was killed overnight!

It is now day 2. With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

There are 72 hours remaining.

[Shale]

That fucking failed, people.

##Vote Excal

Carthrat flipping town surprises me on general principle, but it doesn't change my perspective on Excal, Keeshi or OK any, so I see no reason not to pick up where we left off.

[Ryogo]

I'm willing to go off what we did yesterday just to get the lynch and the flip. We need it. But Keeshi not willing switching votes until another decided to do so too rings as REALLY suspicious to me. Why would you NOT do it?? There's no good reasoning behind it, especially since you said you were willing to switch anyways. I can't see anything beneficial from not switching the vote. Had you switched, maybe someone else could've came on and supported the lynch, but since you didn't, it meant someone else had to cast a vote, and pray that you noticed it before the deadline hit.

I'm sorry I wasn't around to help last night before the deadline, our residence was preparing for the huge day long party we have going today. I would've switched my vote from OK if I had of seen the post by him earlier. Needless to say, I've already had a few drinks, and by the end of the night I wont be in any condition to use logic, let alone post anything useful. So this will probably be my only post today, unless there is anything posted in the next hour or so.

I'm all for using the information we got yesterday, but I'm casting my vote here, in case others feel the same way I do about what happened just before the deadline yesterday.

##Vote: Keeshi

If no one else truly feels this way, I'm willing to switch, but I feel that is just way too big to ignore.

Also, I know I didn't condone this logic yesterday, but I just had my own thought here. Consider the chance that  Excal and Keeshi are both scum. Keeshi just helped prevent Excal's lynch in a way. If one flips scum, could the other be too? I don't know, but it's just one of those suspicions I have. Lemmie know your thoughts.

[Ghen]

Well, fabulous, all.  That was productive.

Onto stuff, since we didn't come to a decision, I am still where I was yesterday. I think the arguments for OK and Excal seemed moderately fine (Excal's far more so than OK's after he began to post again).  But they didn't really feel especially scummy to me.

Instead, I'd like to place a vote for a push to talk.

##Vote Tom

You withdrew your vote and said you'd be back with a vote, probably on Excal and then...disappeared.  Your thoughts and comments are requested. 

[Ghen]

Also, I know I didn't condone this logic yesterday, but I just had my own thought here. Consider the chance that  Excal and Keeshi are both scum. Keeshi just helped prevent Excal's lynch in a way. If one flips scum, could the other be too? I don't know, but it's just one of those suspicions I have. Lemmie know your thoughts.

Ryogo, incorrect.  If I had switched back to Excal, we would have been at 6 (needing 7 to lynch), needing one more soul, ANY soul, to come in and vote for him to lynch him.  Whereas the other two souls that WERE around (Carthrat and Otter) could have changed their vote to OK and thus given us a lynch (which is always better than no lynch).  I kept my vote where we had a chance to lynch rather than move it to where the only chance to lynch was the grace of someone magically showing up to vote...which, in fact, did not happen.

[Corwin]

What Shale said. How the hell did this happen with the deadline falling at the time pretty much everyone in US should be awake and around? Wasn't Alex said to be around? Why didn't he move his vote from Keeshi to make it count?

And why the hell didn't Keeshi move to Excal?

If we CAN lynch Excal, that would be my preference over OK.  I don't really feel either lynch, but I feel less sure about OK's than I do about Excal's.

We have this. And then, we have the following:

Yes, but if I switch, we'd still be at 6, no lynch.  if no one is around but those of us voting for Excal, our only hope to get ANY lynch would seem to be you and Otter moving here.

Yeah, except that if you'd moved your vote and stuck around, Otter appearing to comment and move his would allow you to switch your vote back. Or, alternately, Cid might've given us an extention in that case. Now we don't get a flip. (EDIT for Keeshi's last post: I see she addressed this in her response to Ryogo, but I'm not convinced. Keeshi, since you stayed around till deadline, what would have prevented you from moving back had Otter showed up?)

Let's aim for a decision within 48 hours today, shall we? Waiting until the last minutes hasn't exactly worked out for us here. And I still see OK as my prime candidate. On top of the previous reasons for voting OK, we now also have this:

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13571#msg13571

6) I will read through things and try to get something out before deadline as best I can.  If I get killed, good luck town, and I apologize for any issues I've provided you.

OK showed up and made two posts, which amount at their core to 'I'm vanilla, sorry dudes, can't help you find scum; no solution in sight'. His second post chose Excal, which is understandable since no one would vote for themselves, but I don't find it particularly useful. He calls Rat and I jumping on him for being an 'easy target'. That's strange. I can't speak for Rat, but I thought I went for him based on my 'eliminate lurkers, where lurkers = people with low or no content' policy. He says he doesn't have time to read the entire topic, but one should hope he'd read at least the cases brought up against him. In the previous post, OK also inflates the way people complained about his reference to post restriction mafia. "However, I didn't notice anyone outright say "This is offensive and I hate you". " -- this obviously never happened that way; no one was claiming it did. That OK would address some of the case against him (the parts regarding obfuscation and smokescreening) by obfuscating said case as well doesn't exactly clear him in my eyes.

##Vote: OK

Again, let's try to have all the debate done at the 48 hour mark and have a lynch candidate agreed on? We don't even have to take that long if people don't have any new arguments to bring to the table.

[OblivionKnight]

Ok, headache from work, but to post something here...

Keeshi.  Ok.  I've been in a bad mood as this week has been hell, and this headache is killing me, so this might come off a liiiiiiiiiitle harsh, but...

OK, IF YOU THOUGHT EXCAL WAS WORSE THAN ME, WHY DIDN'T YOU VOTE FOR HIM?  I UNDERSTAND YOUR REASONING, BUT HONESTLY, PUTTING A VOTE WHERE YOU THINK IT SHOULD GO IS IMPORTANT.  

From the rules, post #1:
"- If there is a deadlock at the deadline, the day will end without a lynch."

And from post #137:
"1: The day will indeed end without a lynch if no one reaches a majority vote."

Ok, perhaps I am misunderstanding this, but...it's not specifically stated that the person with the most votes won't get lynched.  Except that...post#153 has Cid say, once I am at the majority, he'd wait because the day would end without a lynch.  Perhaps I misunderstood something here, but...can we assume that we must reach the par for lynching, and not just the highest number?  I assumed it was the former, but...perhaps I'm reading this wrong.  Or just overanalyzing it.  I was generally assuming that if we don't hit par, we don't lynch.

Nonetheless, keeping that vote on me when you specifically stated that Excal was preferred...what?  I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but saying it does, "no good" is wrong.  If you had moved it, that would have put weight behind what you said, and made it seem as if you're actually backing up what you were saying.  Now it almost looks like a cop-out - again, I understand your reasoning in not switching it, but saying that it won't matter is not true - if someone else decided to change their vote because they saw 1 more vote was needed, then we'd get a lynch.  No matter who was lynched, Excal or myself, some information would come from it.  In particular, if you switched to Excal and someone else jumped on it, we could have his alignment, the night-kill, and the shifting votes and logic to go through.  The same goes for me.  While I'm somewhat reaching a bit here, a vote switch to the person you would prefer lynched is where the vote should go, whether people jumped on to lynch or not.  Putting an opinion with strength (i.e., a vote) out there and supporting it is good play.  Keeping back for the sake of, "oh, it wouldn't matter" isn't good.  And yes, this goes for other people looking at it the same way - do it if you feel it's right, stand up, be a good townie.  

Ok, I hope that wasn't too inflammatory.  Just a wee bit in a bad mood at the moment.  I understand your reasoning, but I...don't like it.  It looks baaaaaaaad.

Carth as town...well, he's been town so much recently, I'm not as surprised, but...huh.  His pushes are something I need to look at when my head isn't ready to explode.  

As for picking up where we left off yesterday...I want to look through stuff again, especially after Carth's flip.  Honestly, Keeshi is questionable to me, but I'm not going to push that until I have more, and right now, the only thing I have to go on is yesterday's logic oddity, which, while bad, I feel isn't as major as the other prime suspect.  As such, I still feel Excal is the best choice to go after at the moment.  So...

##Vote:Excal

And now, for an assload of Tylenol.

[Ghen]

As you both seemd to have missed my explaination above, let me break it down simply:

LAST OFFICAL VOTECOUNT BEFORE DEADLINE:

1: The day will indeed end without a lynch if no one reaches a majority vote.
2: I'm going to prod OK via PM. I'm not eager to modkill two people in one game-day. Add this to the fact that I'm used to seeing OK have weird spurts of inactivity like this and I'd like to give him a chance to respond. You can still vote on him, however.

Current votecount:

AndrewRogue (0): Otter, Excal, Keeshi
Carthrat (0): Ryogo, Shale, AndrewRogue
Corwin (0): Ryogo
EvilTom (1): Keeshi, AndrewRogue
Excal (4): Hunter Sopko, Sir Alex, Otter, Hunter Sopko, Keeshi, Shale
Hunter Sopko (1): Ryogo, Corwin
Keeshi (1): Otter, OblivionKnight, Sir Alex, Excal
Otter (0): OblivionKnight, Hunter Sopko
OblivionKnight (5): Corwin, Carthrat, Corwin, Ryogo, AndrewRogue, Excal
Ryogo (0): AndrewRogue, Carthrat, Excal
Shale (0): EvilTom, Sir Alex
Smodge (0): Hunter Sopko, Ryogo, Excal, Corwin

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. There are 2 hours remaining.

That makes us 5 for OK, 4 for Excal.

THEN:

OK votes Excal.  This makes them both even.

THEN:

We almost hit deadline.  I only see 3 people online at the time (all 3 of us those voting for Excal).  I move my vote to OK because unless someone came in in the next 20 minutes (which is roughly all we had left before deadline) we were deadlocked.  If Otter and Carthrat (both around at the time) had moved their vote, we would have gotten a lynch.

Tell me what good it would have done to LEAVE my vote on Excal and thus LEAVE us at a deadlock when by the three of us moving at least we'd have gotten SOME lynch for the day?

THEN:
Mod says he's giving us extra time.  FABulous!  Wonderful!

*sound of crickets chirping*

No one does anything.  I said I would move my vote back if ANYONE WHO IN THEORY WAS PLAYING THE GAME would come along and VOTE.  Notice what no one did.  SO we ended at a deadlock of 5 to 5 instead of 6 to 4.  How is this scummy of me to attempt to get a lynch in?

[Ranmilia]

Ow.  Ow ow ow ow ow.  With regards to the deadline, Otter is not really right about my being around - after my last post I went and got sucked into gaming for several hours with only occasional glances at IRC.  I didn't think the deadline was till later (entirely my fault) and I also, from where the votes were when I left, didn't anticipate deadline screwery with tied Excal and OK trains (not my fault at all, thanks, what the heck happened there and why was there no Keeshi train?)

Rat, oddly, was one of the people I was growing more suspicious of and I was starting to build a case on him over nighttime.  Not sure what to make of his flip, and want to see more people talking before I comment there.

As for right now, though?

##Vote: Keeshi
##Unvote: Keeshi
##Vote: Excal
##Unvote: Excal
##Vote: Keeshi

That about sums up my feelings right now.  As pretty much every post above me states, their behavior at the end of the day was conflicting and horribly scummy and I'm fine with lynching either of them. 

[Ghen]

And just for clarification, assuming that a last minute reprieve is coming, that someone will magickally appear and vote is never a good strategy.  I said several times I would move my vote back to Excal is anyone was around in the hopes that someone would see it, but when the chips were down, I put my vote where it could do some good at least.  I hardly consider that flip-flopping.  It was merely trying desperately to save a day from a no lynch situation.

[Otter]

What the HECK?

We almost hit deadline.  I only see 3 people online at the time (all 3 of us those voting for Excal).  I move my vote to OK because unless someone came in in the next 20 minutes (which is roughly all we had left before deadline) we were deadlocked.  If Otter and Carthrat (both around at the time) had moved their vote, we would have gotten a lynch.

If -I- had moved my vote?  What?  My vote was already on Excal!  And so was Carth's soon afterwards, and you KNEW that his vote on Excal made it even after you'd voted for OK!

You voted for OK for the express stated purpose of preventing no-lynch, then left your vote on OK to allow no-lynch to happen.

If you seriously think you have a defense for doing this then try again.

[Otter]

And just for clarification, assuming that a last minute reprieve is coming, that someone will magickally appear and vote is never a good strategy.  I said several times I would move my vote back to Excal is anyone was around in the hopes that someone would see it, but when the chips were down, I put my vote where it could do some good at least.  I hardly consider that flip-flopping.  It was merely trying desperately to save a day from a no lynch situation.

You were there!  After Rat appeared magically at the last minute!  You were posting!  What "good" was your vote doing after that?  Does it even make sense to you?  I can't really imagine how.

I still think Excal looks terribly scummy but this is just ridiculous.

##VOTE: Excal

[Otter]

Oh, and for the record, I wasn't there at the very end or I would have been screaming at you right then, like Rat was.

Look.  Okay.  I think I see the problem here.

That puts us at, I believe,

Excal: 5
OK: 5

I can move my vote back to Excal, but we'd still be 1 under.  If someone else is around to put us at 7, though, I would change back.

Did it not occur to you that lynch happens as long as there isn't a tie?  The one with the most votes gets lynched!  When you said that, Rat had appeared, given Excal the vote which tied it up, you recognized that it was tied up... and you left your vote where it was.  Had you switched to Excal right then, he'd have 6 votes to OK's 4 and Excal would have been lynched.  Does this solve the confusion?

READ THE RULES.

- If there is a deadlock at the deadline, the day will end without a lynch.