Author Topic: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!  (Read 48395 times)

Shale

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #175 on: March 28, 2008, 10:28:25 PM »
1: The day will indeed end without a lynch if no one reaches a majority vote.
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EvilTom

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #176 on: March 28, 2008, 10:35:47 PM »
You withdrew your vote and said you'd be back with a vote, probably on Excal and then...disappeared.  Your thoughts and comments are requested.
I'm really sorry about this, I felt so bad; I woke up extra early in order to place my vote well before deadline and... no connection. Net had died >.< I was so frustrated, especially as it came back up 20 minutes after the day ended. Though, my vote wouldn't have reached majority anyway, so it's not like it was my fault.

Anyway, as Shale says, let's continue.

##Vote: Excal - for all the reasons mentioned yesterday.
This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time.

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #177 on: March 28, 2008, 10:36:07 PM »
Okay... in general, I think we shouldn't rush into a vote because of how yesterday ended. We have our main suspects, yes, but going too fast might make us miss something. I think we're all starting to freak out a bit personally and due to that it's actually a bit tougher for me to read people than normal. Panic and !!!! doesn't help town, even accompanied by the best of arguments. (This obviously doesn't apply to everyone)

I'm leaning more towards Keeshi at the moment. The conversation regarding her yesterday just rings strangely considering the end result. We DO need to hear from Excal today though.

I'll agree with Otter in that the rules have always been pretty clear on this sort of thing. This isn't the first game where the same rules have applied. I wish I could have gotten on at work when the craziness happened, but I can't really say if I would have changed my vote from Excal at the time.

Ghen

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #178 on: March 28, 2008, 10:36:53 PM »
When town reach majority, more than half of the players have votes for a person.  If there are 12 players, then 7 players are majority.  That's why the number is listed on the bottom of the votecounts each time, to remind everyone the number of votes they must reach to lynch.

Your version of the word majority is just more votes than anyone else, which is not 'majority'.  It was my understanding, and if the mod could please correct me if I understood the rules incorrectly, we needed the majority (and I mean 7 votes by the word) to lynch.

El Cid's post said implicitly that if majority was not reached there would be no lynch as Shale just quoted.

Ranmilia

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #179 on: March 28, 2008, 10:53:47 PM »
Keeshi-san hey Keeshi-san!

You're posting an awful lot!

Who do you think is suspicious?  Yesterday, it was... no one!  Today it is.... no one?

Nyoro~n.

But uh seriously, that's an awful lot of posts, STILL with no suspicions, and your vote is now on Tom as just a "push to talk," which he just has.  This is also in contradiction of your talk earlier about how you believe in vote records and how you always want your vote laid on the person you want lynched.  Please stop arguing over the definition of 'majority' (exactly like the 'attack' sidetrack earlier) and post suspicions and vote for people and hunt scum. 

Otter

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #180 on: March 28, 2008, 11:04:30 PM »
Well.  Okay.  I was wrong about that, I referred to the OP and missed the note Shale caught.  In that case, you were paying more attention than I was, and since I left for seminar before Rat showed up, we didn't have a chance.  Sorry about that, I was confused and annoyed at the outcome.  My fault.

It's annoying but there's nothing we can do about it.  This is why we shouldn't be waiting till the very end to decide.  In that spirit, my vote's already on Excal.  Is there any reason it shouldn't be?

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #181 on: March 28, 2008, 11:06:17 PM »
But uh seriously, that's an awful lot of posts, STILL with no suspicions, and your vote is now on Tom as just a "push to talk," which he just has.  This is also in contradiction of your talk earlier about how you believe in vote records and how you always want your vote laid on the person you want lynched.  Please stop arguing over the definition of 'majority' (exactly like the 'attack' sidetrack earlier) and post suspicions and vote for people and hunt scum. 

Yeah, when you're down to arguing about the definition of words, you're really starting to grasp at straws.

Ghen

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #182 on: March 28, 2008, 11:24:22 PM »
Yes I am posting an awful lot.  I'm at work and I have the time to do so.  And you have been questioning the logic behind my motives at the end of day yesterday which requires explainations from me.  I'm certainly not going to apologize for providing content.  It's there for a reason.  And I have always believed in explaining a reasoning until it is understood by those who have asked or commented upon it.  As it seems I have managed to do that due to Otter's post, I believe I've said enough on why I voted the way I did.  If anyone else is still not certain of my logic, please let me know.

But before I drop it completely, I would like to state that it is hardly semantics if it means the difference between a lynch and a no lynch.  That is the point of the game, Hunter, to lynch the scum (or avoid being lynched if you are scum).  What number you need to get to to lynch is exactly relevant and important to define.

As for specifics on my suspicions today:

Tom: His removal of a vote and promise to come back with no substance I find worrisome.  He does have an answer, but I do not know that I believe him.  I said yesterday that I would be watching him today and I have found precious little content in this new day even though I prodded him for some.  I find no reason to remove my vote from him yet.

Excal: the arguments against him have merit.  I would not opose a lynch there at the moment, although I do not feel more strongly about him than I do about Tom.

---------------------

While I do not have access to the internet at my house I am mandated by my work to check my emails several times a day, even on weekends.  Luckily I am just across the street from a Starbucks (yay free wireless), so I'll be checking in a few times a day this weekend, although not the depth of time I have now at work).  So I don't think my availability will drop off overly much.

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #183 on: March 28, 2008, 11:25:59 PM »
1: The day will indeed end without a lynch if no one reaches a majority vote.

Mod's note: This is accurate. I apologize for any confusion on this issue. I felt the "no-lynch in the event of no majority" rule to be a useful prod to keep the player base from sitting around and waiting for the player with the most votes to get axed at the deadline; whether it's done so is a discussion that can 'til after the game. In the meantime, I hope the technical distinction is clear.

Current votecount:

EvilTom (1): Keeshi
Excal (4): Shale, OblivionKnight, Sir Alex, Otter, EvilTom
Keeshi (2): Ryogo, Sir Alex, Sir Alex
OblivionKnight (1): Corwin

With 11 eleven alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

There are 68.25 hours remaining.

Ghen

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #184 on: March 28, 2008, 11:36:43 PM »
I think that paragraph to Hunter was more terse than I intended.  I apologize.  It's just been frustrating trying to get my reasoning across when there seemed to be multiple interpretations of the rules before.

And thanks, El Cid.  I'm glad I wasn't totally off the mark there on my reading of the number needed.

I think I'm going to step away for the rest of the day and rest my irritation.  I'll be checking in tomorrow morning, though, so will catch up then.  I am looking forward most to hearing from Excal and seeing more content from Tom between now and then.

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #185 on: March 28, 2008, 11:44:14 PM »
No need to apologize about that one. It's a more than fair and a succinct rebuttal to my comment.

EvilTom

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #186 on: March 28, 2008, 11:56:27 PM »
To be honest, the more Keeshi says, the worse he sounds. At the end of yesterday I was planning to vote for either Keeshi or Excal (post here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13503#msg13503 ). Summary: those two looked the scummiest. I ended up deciding on Excal, but... Keeshi just keeps digging.

Keeshi - you want more content out of me? Ok. Fine. Town is in almost exactly the same position we were in at the end of yesterday, because we didn't get our lynch. So what has changed since then for me to provide content on? Well, basically you.

Well, you've been doing more sidetracking. Arguing over definitions?
You've also been posting a lot of short posts, a little frantically. Very edgy behaviour.
Also, back to me again? What new content exactly should I provide? I've stated my reasons for my vote for Excal, and placed it. I've put out a lot of actual content compared to your volume of nothing.

As far as I can tell, you're greating one damn big smokescreen.

Also, I know I didn't condone this logic yesterday, but I just had my own thought here. Consider the chance that  Excal and Keeshi are both scum. Keeshi just helped prevent Excal's lynch in a way. If one flips scum, could the other be too? I don't know, but it's just one of those suspicions I have. Lemmie know your thoughts.
First of all, I don't condone the 'if x flips y, vote z'. But, you do seem to be doing your best to create a smokescreen right now. I don't know if it's to remove suspicion from Excal or not, but it's bad news for town, because discussion is all being drawn towards you yet again.

And, then:
Quote
I think I'm going to step away for the rest of the day and rest my irritation.  I'll be checking in tomorrow morning, though, so will catch up then.  I am looking forward most to hearing from Excal and seeing more content from Tom between now and then.
Wait, so basically, let me see if I've got this right: you've caused a lot of suspicion for yourself, and now it's damage control time? You're just going to lurk for a while until people forget about you? Is that your plan?
Hypocrisy indeed. You call for more content than me - when I've been hunting scum all game and you've been hunting Andrew for not logging in as much - and after calling for content from me, you announce you're going to lurk until tensions cease?

At this point Keeshi, I would not be adverse to your lynch. In fact, if it came to it, I'd happily switch from voting for Excal to voting for you.
This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time.

Ghen

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #187 on: March 29, 2008, 12:12:39 AM »
As I haven't left yet (was reading back through an old mafia thread when this reply popped up), I feel compelled to respond.

I am leaving until the morning, yes.  We need comments from EVERYONE.  So far the day is new and there has not been time for everyone to log in and comment on yesterday's events.  Considering that there are still roughly sixty some odd hours until the end of day, I believe that taking the time to see what everone has to say and comment is not only a good idea, but vital.  I think waiting until my morning is sufficient enough time for everyone to reasonably have assumed the game to be back on and checked in.  Anyone not posting by that time would require me to consider them in a new light.

A push for a quick lynch is never good.

In a game that revolves around logic and reasoning, when your temper begins to fray, it is never a good idea to continue to try to put out content.  That content will almost always be phrased poorly because you let your emotions and irritation get the better of you.  I think in one of the threads I read the other day someone said that town should always be civil.  I believe that.  In my last post I began to see the seeds of my moving beyond civil and beginning to become overly irritated.  I've played enough to recognize it in myself.

Now, checking again in the morning is less than 24 hours after the start of a new day.  No lynch should be decided so quickly that we can not allow 24 hours in a day to get comments from all.  We all need to weigh in and contribute.  So while I wait for others to get a chance to log on, see the results and respond, I am going to step away and cool my temper.  I think that's advisable to anyone who begins to get frustrated by the game.

There is a vital difference between smokescreen and responding to direct questions and comments.  I am sorry if you or anyone else see my responses to Alex and the others' concerns about why I voted as I did as a smokescreen.  I was merely trying to make my logic understood.

AndrewRogue

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #188 on: March 29, 2008, 02:27:04 AM »
Checking in. Just got back home tonight, so I need to unpack and do some things and then I'll post. Consider me back to regular posting ability.

Excal

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #189 on: March 29, 2008, 02:42:48 AM »
##Vote: Otter

Alright, what happened yesterday was a farce.  We had a last second lynch, and we blew it.  However, the really ludicrous thing is, you're all looking the wrong way.  You think we didn't get anything from that?  I sure noticed what we got, I think Rat dropped a few hints to it before the day ended too.  Of course, he's not around any more to say anything, so how much does that matter?

So, what does this have to do with my Otter vote?  Simple.  We had OK at -1 to Hammer.  Look at those results, it was 5-5 with 7 to lynch, and that's with Rat's last second switch from OK to me for his vote.  And that switch was in extension time no less.  When the original deadline hit, Keeshi was desperatly trying to convince Otter to switch his vote and get a lynch, any lynch, rather than letting us time out and get nothing.

And Otter?  He's claims that the rules didn't go that way.  Here's the thing.  Why was he wrong on that?  He apparently had El Cid's ear as he was the one who brought up the extension first.  Heck, let's find that quote.

Or, no, direct word from Cid is that we have till eight!  Ten minutes!  If people are in fact alive (I know Keeshi is!) there's no reason that wouldn't be enough time.

That post came in before Rat switched his vote, so Otter had the chance to hammer, and he knew time was running out as seen in this post, directly preceeding that one.

Oh, my bad, I thought we had till eight.  Guess it really was too late.  Two hours from Cid's post is... already up.  Damn.

In fact, Cid says that he'd hate to see the day end without a lynch as his reason for the extension in the post directly before Rat makes it a tie.  So Otter's reasoning here...

Oh, and for the record, I wasn't there at the very end or I would have been screaming at you right then, like Rat was.

Look.  Okay.  I think I see the problem here.

Quote from: Keeshi
That puts us at, I believe,

Excal: 5
OK: 5

I can move my vote back to Excal, but we'd still be 1 under.  If someone else is around to put us at 7, though, I would change back.

Did it not occur to you that lynch happens as long as there isn't a tie?  The one with the most votes gets lynched!  When you said that, Rat had appeared, given Excal the vote which tied it up, you recognized that it was tied up... and you left your vote where it was.  Had you switched to Excal right then, he'd have 6 votes to OK's 4 and Excal would have been lynched.  Does this solve the confusion?

READ THE RULES.

Quote from: Rules
- If there is a deadlock at the deadline, the day will end without a lynch.

That suggests that his reasoning here is either a lie, or he hasn't bothered to read the end of the last day at all.  Honestly, I'm Otter is one of the people I'm more likely to assume malevolence from than incompetance.  Which certainly makes me wonder why, while he had the hammer, it never fell.

One other thing really worries me.  It's the backlash against Keeshi.  She gave lots of warning that deadline was coming.  She changed her vote specifically for the sake of trying to get a hammer to happen.  She argued frantically in order to try and convince the only other person showing himself at the time to drop the hammer.  And people are calling her scummy for that?!  She does everything in her power to avoid No Lynch, and that's supposed to be the sign of a scum?  Can we at least get some consistancy here, people?

OblivionKnight

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #190 on: March 29, 2008, 03:27:15 AM »
Let's aim for a decision within 48 hours today, shall we? Waiting until the last minutes hasn't exactly worked out for us here. And I still see OK as my prime candidate. On top of the previous reasons for voting OK, we now also have this:

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13571#msg13571

Quote
6) I will read through things and try to get something out before deadline as best I can.  If I get killed, good luck town, and I apologize for any issues I've provided you.

OK showed up and made two posts, which amount at their core to 'I'm vanilla, sorry dudes, can't help you find scum; no solution in sight'. His second post chose Excal, which is understandable since no one would vote for themselves, but I don't find it particularly useful. He calls Rat and I jumping on him for being an 'easy target'. That's strange. I can't speak for Rat, but I thought I went for him based on my 'eliminate lurkers, where lurkers = people with low or no content' policy. He says he doesn't have time to read the entire topic, but one should hope he'd read at least the cases brought up against him. In the previous post, OK also inflates the way people complained about his reference to post restriction mafia. "However, I didn't notice anyone outright say "This is offensive and I hate you". " -- this obviously never happened that way; no one was claiming it did. That OK would address some of the case against him (the parts regarding obfuscation and smokescreening) by obfuscating said case as well doesn't exactly clear him in my eyes.

##Vote: OK

Again, let's try to have all the debate done at the 48 hour mark and have a lynch candidate agreed on? We don't even have to take that long if people don't have any new arguments to bring to the table.

1) I never said you and Rat specifically jumping on me.  I said I had made a suspicious drop, though unintended:  
"Ok, going after me for inactivity is good.  However, Shale makes the good point that I haven't been anywhere.  While yes, it was a suspicious drop, unfortunately, the fact remains it looked like people were jumping on it to jump on something."
Please don't throw in a personal attack there when there isn't one.  I said there were good points to going after me.  I acknowledged this.  Read the first part of the quote.  I could have phrased that better, so that's my fault, but the principle is still there - there are good reasons for jumping on me, but I'm simply saying it can work as a convenient jump due to when it happened.  I should have been more specific with who I meant - you supported yourself, I would think that would have been fairly obvious.  Excal and later Keeshi are the big ones.  Andrew's a bit odd - he mention in the post before voting me that he was scared of my disappearance, concerned over my general nature of posting...ok...then a "gut feeling" response.  Which I can see from the way I had been posting.  Honestly, no issue there, but I thought I should bring that up incase someone questions that.  Excal...reiterated points made by others, then...went with the "winning ticket" for today.  Keeshi's been over already.

Keeshi, as an aside - I think we're both missing a bit on each other.  Thanks for clearing things up, Cid - I was confused as I pointed out.  Keeshi, it's a principle perspective - if you feel someone is scummier than another, vote them.  Even if it doesn't make it to the point of lynch?  There's a vote there to look at for people to gauge, and you're backing up your thoughts.  That's honestly the biggest sticking point from my end - it looked like you were skirting it with a, "It won't matter" thought when it DOES Matter.

2) I apologize for being vanilla, but how do you get the "can't help find scum, no solution in sight" thing from my post?  I'm posting from work, in a hospital to a gaming site - I shouldn't even be doing this, but I did it as soon as possible to try to help and make sure, hey, I'm contributing somehow, someway and letting people know where I am?  I said I hadn't had time to go through things - when did I say there was no solution?  The can't help find scum thing I'll concede, as I saw my votes drag up and my time was dwindling down.  However, I never said that - are you implying that from what I posted?  I did give an overview of where I saw everyone I could think of at that point, which was, I thought, the most helpful thing I could do if I was going to die.  Honestly, now I'm not certain where you're getting this, "I can't help town" vibe.

3) "...referring to the post restriction game to the point of annoyance (not only my own, as I gathered from the responses in the thread)"
That's where I got the vibe from.  My saying:
"I apologize if referencing past mafias and being a little light-hearted has offended anyone.  However, I didn't notice anyone outright say "This is offensive and I hate you".  The worst I remember was a, "this is confusing" vibe.  It honestly sounds like trying to drum up fire on me for something to jump on to.  Granted, since I am behind on reading, maybe there was more, but that's the feeling I get so far."
A little overdone?  Perhaps, but as I said, all I got was a confusing vibe (From Excal - Andrew noted that I should be less playful - where do you get the annoyingness?) before.  It struck me as a bit overblown from what it originally was, especially since, you know...I don't find the annoying vibe anyway being said by anyone.  Where is it, Corwin?  It almost seems like YOU inflated the point against me from what it originally was.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Ranmilia

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #191 on: March 29, 2008, 03:50:01 AM »
post about deadline shenanigans, invoking the Holy Word of Dead Townie Rat, plus:

One other thing really worries me.  It's the backlash against Keeshi.  She gave lots of warning that deadline was coming.  She changed her vote specifically for the sake of trying to get a hammer to happen.  She argued frantically in order to try and convince the only other person showing himself at the time to drop the hammer.  And people are calling her scummy for that?!  She does everything in her power to avoid No Lynch, and that's supposed to be the sign of a scum?  Can we at least get some consistancy here, people?

Trying to scrutinize the deadline shenanigans and guess who was online when and what the vote situation was and if they knew it does not strike me as an effective way to find scum.  What DOES strike me as a good thing to analyze is the large scale pattern, which in this case looks to me like people piling onto OK to tie or supercede the Excal lynch, in a movement co-founded by Excal. 

Keeshi's actions around the deadline are not what she's being called scummy for.  In fact, that's something she keeps bringing up to distract from the actual case against her.

I am also preternaturally suspicious of anyone trying to invoke the Holy Word of Dead Townies in the specific way Excal has. 

The above is all more reasons why I'm fine with an Excal lynch.

I realize I haven't spoken much about other folks; this is because I haven't seen anything standing out about them.  At a very rough glance, Soppy, Shale and Corwin are looking on the shady side to me.  Former two for seeming to stand back and the latter due to his connection to Rat (WIFOM, yes) and his questionable choices of interpretations and behavior towards Keeshi.

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #192 on: March 29, 2008, 04:54:37 AM »
Okay, Excal has talked now.

I'm not really liking the reaction vote on Otter. Excal is in the crosshairs, and he chooses to target a specific person rather than lend his thoughts on everyone. Nothing on anyone else (save a rather good defense of Keeshi). Why? Granted, you do have time to give your overall impressions, but why make this your first impression of the day with so much heat on you?

And OK... whoa, settle down. Again, I just want to reiterate that getting heated regarding things never helps town.

Shale

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #193 on: March 29, 2008, 05:49:28 AM »
I'm trying to look through the end of the day for something solid, but without a flip it all just degrades to second-, third- and fourth-guessing myself. There's a window when Otter could have switched his vote and hammered, but if he genuinely thought Excal was worse and that auto-hammer would happen at deadline with any plurality of votes, he's got a good reason not to want to knock off OK early. Which depends on him missing Cid's note, and that comes down to whether I trust his excuse or not. With deadline looming in a matter of minutes, it's not hard to see why someone could lose focus when reading through the recent posts.

As far as Keeshi goes, her logic was sound: nobody who had voted for OK was talking, so if anyone was going to switch votes it would have to be from Excal to OK. If I'd gotten home earlier I'd have switched off, no hesitation.

Excal's post against Otter...gah. He's basing the whole thing on his failure to hammer, which comes down to the question of if you believe the "the rules were unclear" excuse. I lean toward yes, personally, although I'm by no means certain; "deadlock" is not the clearest way to write "no majority," and as I said before the pressure was high at that point.

Speaking of Excal, though, you never did respond to this before the end of the day:

Quote
Where you seem to be tripping up is that you're taking my acceptance of one part, the agreeing with our not needing to always have a scum read on someone, and reading into that a blanket acceptance for Keeshi's reasoning, even as I vote for Keeshi because I disagree with that reasoning.

Quote
I can understand where Keeshi is coming from, given that I don't find anyone overly scummy at the moment either, and the decision to go with lynching the lurkers when nothing else concrete is at hand is a sensable and acceptable alternative.

...

However, Keeshi, Alex has raised an excellent point in his first post against you, and it is one which you haven't addressed to any length yet.  Why do you suggest letting Andy swing in the same post where you admit that you will indefinatly share the same flaw he has until Saturday?

So...uh, no, you agreed with her logic, but then called her on the hypocrisy angle. Which you seem to have dropped completely now, and are instead saying that you disagree with her logic. I'm inclined to agree with much of what Otter's said here (except the part about Mafia being on the decline, but like you said, that's best discussed outside the game topic). So, let's finally get a serious vote down:

##Vote Excal

Well?

On Keeshi. She's really not doing herself many favors today, although it's also hard to blame her for being defensive under the circumstances. Still, you have to find someone suspicious! We're at three and a half days of gameplay here, everybody's got a decent amount of talking done. Care to call out somebody for something less objective than not posting? Textual analysis is overdue at this point, and the longer you go without it, the more comfortable I am with the idea of your lynch.

Quote from: Sir Alex
Keeshi's actions around the deadline are not what she's being called scummy for.  In fact, that's something she keeps bringing up to distract from the actual case against her.

Oh? Since the day started I can't see anybody talking about anything she did but her actions around deadline.
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Otter

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #194 on: March 29, 2008, 06:44:58 AM »
I am compelled to respond to accusations backed up by a vote, so here goes.

Quote from: Excal
And Otter?  He's claims that the rules didn't go that way.  Here's the thing.  Why was he wrong on that?  He apparently had El Cid's ear as he was the one who brought up the extension first.

"Having his ear" consisted of me shouting in #rpgdl "Hey!  El Cid, you're here!  Can we have until eight?" at which he said "Eh, sure, why not."  It hadn't even occurred to me that there'd be no-lynch unless we were stuck with a tie ("deadlock").  I thought it was still possible to get a switch that would allow for Excal to get more votes than OK, even if just six, and since I thought that'd mean an Excal lynch I thought it was worth holding out for.

Quote from: Excal
One other thing really worries me.  It's the backlash against Keeshi.  She gave lots of warning that deadline was coming.  She changed her vote specifically for the sake of trying to get a hammer to happen.  She argued frantically in order to try and convince the only other person showing himself at the time to drop the hammer.  And people are calling her scummy for that?!  She does everything in her power to avoid No Lynch, and that's supposed to be the sign of a scum?  Can we at least get some consistancy here, people?

Now that El Cid's clarified the rules for us, Keeshi's actions obviously make way more sense to me, and I've acknowledged this and apologized for yelling at her.  As I said, it was my misunderstanding, there.  That, of course, doesn't make her a townie, as Alex observes:

Quote from: SirAlex
Keeshi's actions around the deadline are not what she's being called scummy for.  In fact, that's something she keeps bringing up to distract from the actual case against her.

Vote remains on Excal.

---

CALLOUT CORNER: I'd like a lot more substance from Sopko.

---

My impression of OK is only getting better, which is a good thing.  With no lynch flip, our information is pretty limited; arguments stemming purely from Rat=town devolve into WIFOM kind of rapidly.  I agree with whoever suggested we try to wrap up the day within 48 hours; there's no reason we really need to go longer.  A lot of games have 48 hour days to begin with, so I wouldn't mind viewing the extra 24 as sort of a grace period, there in case we need it but definitely preferable not to need.  Pushing it out to the last minute is just a recipe for "Oh man, oh man, nobody's around, we've gotta get [whoever] lynched or we won't get a lynch at all!" and that's bad for us.

AndrewRogue

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #195 on: March 29, 2008, 06:57:10 AM »
Why did Carth get NKed? I've been mulling over this question, and I'm only finding one answer that makes real sense to me. Join me on a quick journey of speculation first, though. I've thought a lot about this, and I keep coming back to this being the solution that makes the most sense to me.

Right now, there are about two options to me as to how last night could possibly have played out. Either everyone screwed up, or scum was actively trying to get a no lynch.

No lynch, generally, doesn't do a lot. It, essentially, cuts the kill count down by one. This, however, doesn't seem to be too useful unless it is actually being used to protect someone who the voters are reasonably sure shouldn't be killed. Which leaves us in a very interesting situation. Presuming that we have the more complex situation (the no lynch was the result of scum manipulating a close vote count), this leaves one real, logical reason for a no lynch to me: to protect a scum buddy who has a train on them.

Which brings us to the endgame. We had OK and Excal up for lynch, and between (presumably) Keeshi, Otter and Carth, we managed to avoid a lynch on either of them.

There were about two ways the day could end. Keeshi swings to Excal and someone else jumps in, or both Carth and Otter jump to OK. As it ended up playing out...

Otter has a window in which to hammer OK, but chooses not to. he then proceeds to disappear.

Keeshi switches to OK, expresses a preference towards lynching Excal, says she'll change her vote if someone else does and holds onto the OK vote despite Carth and Otter apparently not switching.

Carth swaps to Excal, missing Keeshi's switch, and proceeds to debate with Keeshi about the lynch.

While, on the surface, Keeshi's logic looks good, the main problem I have is still the numbers game. Keeshi was counting on two people to switch and hung onto that, despite it being apparent that this wasn't happening. Her advantage was that she WAS there, and had the ability to switch her vote repeatedly as long as there was time. Which does leave the question. Why did she not switch to Excal (allowing someone who showed up to hammer real quick) while trying to convince Carth and Otter to move? This would have left her room to control the situation. In essence, to me at least, she seemed largely in control of the situation.

Indeed, it is worth noting that she did, at the least, put up the facade of trying to do everything she could to stop a no lynch from happening... except put Excal at -1 to hammer and allow anyone to drop a quick vote on Excal and carry out the hammer. In fact, what I have a problem with in her defense is that it left enough room for her to fail to get her vote in on time; by waiting for the 6th vote and reserving the hammer for herself, she had the room to "accidentally" miss deadline. Of course, her defense is pretty solid. Like Carth, she was holding out to try and get a vote.

Which ultimately, brings me back to my original problem with today's flip. Why would scum kill Carth? I realize this crosses into WIFOM territory, but... well. He was a logical choice to, you know, leave alive, given that he was ALSO obviously there and ALSO not switching his vote to put someone at -1 to hammer. If he was alive, there was practically no doubt he'd be under the same scrutiny as Keeshi today. Scum had almost everything to gain by leaving him alive.

In fact, the only benefit I can see to killing him is that it simply shows that part of the whole mess at the end of the day was townie silliness. And who benefits from this sort of knowledge hanging around? Keeshi, whose position was definitively parallel to his.

So, right now, based on speculation, my major scum candidate is Keeshi, as her being scum... well... makes the rest of the day and the flip work in my head. She stuck on OK because (presumably) he was town, effectively protecting Excal. Even if she couldn't get the lynch, she COULD interfere with the lynch actually happening (which happened). Her stance today shifted completely away from Excal or OK (getting kind of a cursory handwave), instead calling Tom out. Her position yesterday was to lynch me because I had some posting restrictions.

##Vote: Keeshi

My secondary candidate, similarly, is Excal. Keeshi's actions, at least under this speculation, bear a strong resemblance to protecting him ("preventing" his lynch). Furthermore, his recent responses have been very protective. While this could well be someone protecting someone they feel is innocent, it feels off under my current theory.

My next post will focus more on textual analysis and such, but I can't get this theory out of my head and I needed to put it down for others to see. Please keep in mind that this is speculation, and that this is just me trying to reconcile what happened at the end of Day 1 and Night 1. It really does make sense to me, the more I think about it, but I don't have much to go on at this point.

AndrewRogue

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #196 on: March 29, 2008, 07:01:45 AM »
"Her position yesterday was to lynch me because I had some posting restrictions." Should be "Part of her position yesterday..." in reference to her earlier vote on me. Basically, I'm ticking off the things that make her look scummy to me.

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #197 on: March 29, 2008, 07:27:18 AM »
I'm not seeing the problem with Keeshi calling Tom out. Actually, it's one of the only really observant things she's said all day when you seperate out all of her defense work. Heck, you're leaving Tom out of this as well (granted, somewhat validated since he wasn't technically around).

But it's a good argument, and actually got the gears turning.

Your argument at the end of Keeshi sticking to OK knowing he was town could actually work both ways. Leveling them out wouldn't matter much if either of them (Excal and OK) are scum or not. Given she was online at the time, it actually gives her more power in the situation because hypothetically, if someone jumps on OK, she looks better by comparison. If someone jumps on Excal, then she gets the power to hammer. She wouldn't have come off as well doing this, but maybe that was the risk? Add to it possibilities for confusion on the night kill?

If either is a scumbuddy she is protecting, then... I guess it's protection, but going over it it is hard to tell which one is which if thats the case.

She has also been very defensive today for someone who doesn't have very many votes on her. Excal is the one who had the votes quickly pile up on him, and she's the one thats gone into complete defense mode. I'm not really one to excuse Excal's one post though. Too reactionary for my taste.

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #198 on: March 29, 2008, 09:17:13 AM »
A response to OK for this post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13743#msg13743):

Quote
1) I never said you and Rat specifically jumping on me.  I said I had made a suspicious drop, though unintended: 
"Ok, going after me for inactivity is good.  However, Shale makes the good point that I haven't been anywhere.  While yes, it was a suspicious drop, unfortunately, the fact remains it looked like people were jumping on it to jump on something."
Please don't throw in a personal attack there when there isn't one.

This is not a personal attack. Also, while anyone sane would agree with your interpretation of your quote... I was speaking of the other post you've made at that time.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13576#msg13576

Quote
Carth and Corwin...I don't know.  I haven't had time to look at them in more detail, and the only thing going through my head at the moment is amounting to them jumping on me as an easy target with what happened, so I'd like to look over that some more.

You only had the two posts made at the time. I referred to them both. If you can't remember what you've said and where, or can't be bothered to look through the specific arguments, that shows a lack of attention. That, in turn, is a scumtell.

Quote
2) I apologize for being vanilla, but how do you get the "can't help find scum, no solution in sight" thing from my post?

Well.

First post:
Quote
6) I will read through things and try to get something out before deadline as best I can.  If I get killed, good luck town, and I apologize for any issues I've provided you. 
Second post:
Quote
As I said, I haven't had a huge amount of time to look over everything.

You go for the other lynch candidate present at the time, though you may well actually find him suspicious. As for the 'no solution in sight' part, I was referring to your complaints about Comcast. If I misread and your net access is now fixed, allowing you a steady presence from home, do say so and I'll concede this point. However, your posts after that one, including the one I'm replying to, have all complained of your limited availability due to reading/posting from work. The vibe I talked about was your defeatist-seeming attitude. "Here, I'll lay a vote on the guy who isn't me, can't be too sure on people but some of them might be town (here are names) even though I haven't really read everything, good luck". If you were town, I'd expect you to fight more.

Quote
A little overdone?  Perhaps, but as I said, all I got was a confusing vibe (From Excal - Andrew noted that I should be less playful - where do you get the annoyingness?) before.  It struck me as a bit overblown from what it originally was, especially since, you know...I don't find the annoying vibe anyway being said by anyone.  Where is it, Corwin?  It almost seems like YOU inflated the point against me from what it originally was.

Okay, then!

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13312#msg13312

Excal:
Quote
Also, OK.  Can you please not refer to Rat by all kinds of wierd names?  I'm sure it's fun, but this isn't the place to add that kind of unnecessary confusion, and I hate having to stop my train of thought for a minute or so each time you do that so I can figure out who you're talking about?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13330#msg13330

Shale, in a generic way:
Quote
Let's see...as far as OK goes, the little dissertation on LYLO does seem pretty random, and many of his posts have gone on at length about either the obvious (No Lynch is bad, "accidental" lynching is a thing to be avoided) or nothing in particular (most of the metagaming talk, which could boil down to a few sentences).

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13342#msg13342

Andrew:
Quote
On OK: The whole obvious advice and what have you thing is a neutral tell to me. The most troubling thing to me, looking back, is that note that...

Quote
As for meta-gaming...well, I've only ever been town...ever.  I am the most awesome townie there is, afterall OKIATUHIIAHWPIWCHTIA.

I realize it is playful, but playful talk can often mean just as much as real talk. We've seen this happen before in games, and all this does is plant little seeds of doubt. Not sure I feel strongly enough to swing a vote his direction because of it, but it really does bother me.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=673.msg13522#msg13522

Finally, there's myself:
Quote
Quote
##Vote: OblivionKnight. Okay, who remembered OK was playing, bad pun unintended? He came, he placed a oneliner jokevote, he left. Content, please.

That's what I said when I voted OK originally. He showed up after I did so, voted Keeshi for 'lurking', kept on referring to the post restriction game to the point of annoyance (not only my own, as I gathered from the responses in the thread), unvoted Keeshi quickly and said he was 'waiting' on smodge without a lurker vote this time around. His next (and last) post are about lynching, essentially coming down to game mechanics.

Is this enough, or do you want me to comb the thread? Still get this strange feeling that I'm inflating things for mysteriously nefarious reasons? All I'm doing is going by your actions and others' (including my own) reactions to them. I've actually presented both links and quotes in context, so if I'm the one mischaraterising them I'd like to hear from people on this.

Anyway. I'll wait on a clarification of OK's availability. I'd also like him to present the content I've been prodding him for the other day. It's a good start to rate us all in order of towniness, but cases + evidence would be a lot better.

On other issues: Keeshi's looking worse to me, today. Really, the above line to OK is something that I hope she takes to heart as well. While I can see differences between mafia played in different places, it's hard to see a group that would put all emphasis on personal defense in lieu of making cases on those one considers scummy, and she'd better be considering some people here scummy by now. I need to see her do a decent effort convincing us that her targets are scum and should get lynched.

On Excal: Wouldn't oppose that lynch due to what happened last time, with the no lynch. Still hoping people actually go for the sensible LAL strategy as we gather more info. Remember, scum usually hide as lurkers, and once we've hit scum, we have a lot more information available to us!

OblivionKnight

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Re: Composer Battle Is Go! THE TREBLE CLEF IS YOUR DOOM!
« Reply #199 on: March 29, 2008, 02:37:13 PM »
Part 1

Okay then, let's work through all this.

1) I read the post, and in my mind, I had presented it differently - the way I interpreted it was that I didn't know about you two because all that was goinging through my head at the point with all those votes and things was you two jumping on me, since you were the two I remember with the strongest votes and pushes at the time.  Which is why I prefaced it with, "I don't know", and finished with "I'd need to look over it some more".  If it didn't come off that way, I apologize, but I still stand by the fact I didn't want it to come off that way.  I'll concede, after reading over it again in not-haste, that it's worded pretty badly. 

2) Fuck Comcast.  Honestly, what is suspicious about saying I had little time to go through things at that point?  I'm at work using a work-around against the policy of the health system in-between breaks I have.  How do I have a chance to read through things much?  I was rushed at the point, so I wanted to get in all I can - lead vote-getter and all.  Honestly, I think that was better not-defeatist - I didn't just cry about it - I gave a bit of info I had time to do, and roleclaimed, and didn't just wallow in defeat.  That would have involved me going, "Oh well, fuck it, I'm dead, goodbye!"  With a bit of sporadic content, I thought what I gave was fine and to the best of my capabilities, technology-wise and time-wise at that point - I went through people.  No, I didn't link to cases or the like.  But I gave thoughts I had before my possible death for people to work on looking at.  I was under the impression I said I had scanned the topic - if that's not what you were looking for (scanning with thoughts), then I'll concede I didn't provide enough information.  But providing something is better than nothing, and the fact I couldn't go through and provide 20 pages of analysis shouldn't be held against me.  I had no idea how the net access at work would go - so saying good luck with the thought I might not be around to fix things seems fine to me.  Yes, I did find Excal suspicious (more in part 3), and still do, or I wouldn't be voting for him.  Would voting for myself have looked less suspicious (I don't mean that offensively, so please don't take it that way)?  And to finally answer your question, yes, I have my net access back and am back in general, barring work-related activities and a trip home to central PA Tuesday night - Saturday afternoon.

3) I still maintain that you've inflated the annoyance part.  From my readings of those posts, I'm getting: from Excal "It's fun, but please don't do it to add unnecessary confusion", Shale...I don't even get where it's coming from there (generic way?  It looks more like he's analyzing my character at the moment, not noting anything about annoyance, so I don't know where it's coming from), and from Andrew, "Be careful, for your own safety".  I'm not picking up on annoyance, but there've been enough mentions and quotes of it that I get the hint (or got, I should say - have I done anything of the sort since?)  If the people who quoted them would like to note their thoughts on what they meant with regards to myself, please, please do tell.  I'd really like to hear your interpretations of what you said, since apparently, the two of us are looking at them differently.

More in Part 2.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory