Nerf League: Week 4

[SnowFire]

The Circle of Sages in Crescent Lake held an emergency meeting.  It was...  well, an emergency.  The team of 4 elite ninjas they sent to the Sky Castle had not returned.  Had all hope been lost?!

The youngest sage spoke first.  "You fools!  Did you not know of the Inverse Ninja Law?!  By concentrating our ninjas, we made them weak and powerless.  Where 4 ninjas fail, perhaps 1 ninja could succeed.  1 ninja with a canoe and a spaceship, at least."

The elder laughed.  "Impossible!  The Fiend of Wind is practically invincible.  There's no way you could find such a brave ninja."

The young sage-prince dramatically threw off his secret ninja disguise.  "Ah, but I think I already have."

--
Sorry 'bout the delay.  Skipped a week due to various issues, but the Nerfs have returned.

(Bright Knight beat Noa off MagicFanatic tiebreak, Tear beat Milon off Pyro.)

Godlike

Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2) vs. Bruiser Jade (BoF1)
Izanami-no-Okami (P4) vs. Pre-Rogue Blue (Saga Frontier)

Heavy

Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. PC Magus (CT)
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Decressed Lilka (WA2)
Pauper Orlandu (FFT) vs. White Mage Ryu (BoF3)

Middle

Healer Yuna (FFX) vs. Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier)
Agni'd Myria (BoF) vs. Bright Knight (BD)
Single Sword Hiro (Lunar 2) vs. Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4)

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)
Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT)
Busted Cloud (FF7) vs. ElfChallenge Arnaud (WA4)

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA)
SuperBlackAielWizard (FF1DoS) vs. Quiet Qriryt (DQ4)

[SnowFire]

Limitation list.

Godlike

Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2) - No non-holy moves.
Bruiser Jade (BoF1) - No BoltX.
Izanami-No-Okami (P4) - Starts on Form 2
Pre-Rogue Blue (Saga Frontier) - Pre-Rogue duel, no Rune.

Heavy

Vincible Elc (AtL2) - No Invincible.
Knightless Lulu (FFX) - No Onion Knight Celestial.
Decressed Lilka (WA2) - No crest modification.
Pauper Orlandu (FFT) - No Excalibur.
White Mage Ryu (BoF3) - No Bonebreak nor Accession.

Middle

Healer Yuna (FFX) - No Aeons, no Holy.
Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) - No OverDrive.
Agni'd Myria (BoF) - Scaled against Agni.  See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOttN32IMWI .
Bright Knight (BD) - Dark Knight, no dark-elemental attacks.
Single Sword Hiro (L2) - No Triple Sword.
Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4) - Equipped w/ staff.

Light

Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4) - No claws, no non-attack spells.
Diamond Mog (FF6) - No Snow Muffler (= Diamond Armor equipped).
Magicless Marle (CT) - No starred / Spekkio spells.
Busted Cloud (FF7) - Locked to Buster Sword.
ElfChallenge Arnaud (WA4) - Locked initial equipment, no Slow Down

Puny

Songstress Tear (TotA) - Skillset just: [Nightmare, Holy Song, Force Field, Revitalize].
SuperBlackAielWizard (FF1DoS) - No attack magic / enemy status
Quiet Qristo (DQ4) - Auto-Silenced.

[Pyro]

Godlike

Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2) vs. Bruiser Jade (BoF1)
Izanami-no-Okami (P4) vs. Pre-Rogue Blue (Saga Frontier)

Heavy

Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. PC Magus (CT): He can definitely play a range game, and the durability is more than enough.
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Decressed Lilka (WA2): Lilka has to guard against Instant Death. An Overdrive or something will nail her I'm sure.
Pauper Orlandu (FFT) vs. White Mage Ryu (BoF3): Destroys his armor and then him. Easy.

Middle

Healer Yuna (FFX) vs. Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier): I have to imagine Instant Death and so on is enough for this...
Agni'd Myria (BoF) vs. Bright Knight (BD): That's going to be an awful lot of minus strikes at lowish HP... Store turns at high HP, blow em at low... but Myria's raw HP is excellent even if he ignores her defense.
Single Sword Hiro (Lunar 2) vs. Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4): It's a coinflip after Hiro's ID... actually Rune's chances of winning via ID are lower than 50% because his ID isn't perfect. Yeah, 50% going first > Rune's non perfect ID going second.

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)
Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT)
Busted Cloud (FF7) vs. ElfChallenge Arnaud (WA4)

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA): Ted isn't even bad or anything I don't think...
SuperBlackAielWizard (FF1DoS) vs. Quiet Qriryt (DQ4)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike

Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2) vs. Bruiser Jade (BoF1): Unsure. Holy Warrior Reicher hits the wrong defence, but he has a lot more offence. Math later.

Heavy

Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Decressed Lilka (WA2): When Pyro is voting against Lilka...
Pauper Orlandu (FFT) vs. White Mage Ryu (BoF3): Break the armour, at that point any sort of drain game should win.

Middle

Healer Yuna (FFX) vs. Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier): Reflect walls off any ID... and indeed most of what Blue can do? The things I'd still hype as possibly hitting through Reflect are mostly either wallable by the Phantom Ring (MegaWindblast) or a losing trade due to the turnsplit (dispel). Blue meanwhile has no way to immune poison... although Grail does cure it. So this becomes a stalling match, the specifics of which depend on (a) exactly what Saga Frontier spells, if any, are seen as piercing reflect, and (b) whether you let Blue reflect stuff off himself onto Yuna (otherwise Yuna reflects them both and has an easy win). I'm not sure. Yuna's reflect doesn't stop MT spells, but MT is a fair bit more common in Saga and is just Ultima in FFX. One argument would be to let Saga's ITE spells go through Reflect... so DarkSphere (dispel + weak damage, not too useful due to speed), ReverseGravity (kinda decent damage), and TimeEclipse (haha no not hyping ST status as reflect-ignoring). I don't think that list is enough, Blue's ID isn't turn 1 so Yuna can set up Shell first if need be, and there was nothing on that list which necessitated a specific armour so SOS Regen armour + shell + PRAY if necessary should offset ReverseGravity. At that point Yuna is free to turtle until Blue's MP is gone, though obviously this takes forever. Good fight!
Agni'd Myria (BoF) vs. Bright Knight (BD): Strong kneejerk of BD being wretched against anyone with this much HP. Even full Minus Strikes are what, 1/3 PCHP? Just not scary past the bursting.
Single Sword Hiro (Lunar 2) vs. Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4): It's entirely possible that Hiro's magic is low enough that Rune's ID is in fact 100%... *checks* Oh, never mind, Ghaleon's Sword to the rescue, he's above average. Kind of annoying because Rune's ID is considerably more useful in-game, but so it goes. EDIT: Will think about this more later.

Light

Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT): One stop proc and this is over, with Mog's bad durability. Stop lands before Snare does, I believe.
Busted Cloud (FF7) vs. ElfChallenge Arnaud (WA4): Needs math, later. EDIT: Arnaud can 4HKO Cloud after applying Illusion, but if Cloud 4HKOs him back (or 3HKOs and loses one to magic blocker) Cloud wins anyway. Does he? Eh, maybe. I realise Arnaud has less HP than I thought, I forgot that ElfChallenge put the HP/MP slider all the way to MP. (Did I mention this in his description? I forget.) Puts his mdur at more like 0.78, which is a much higher risk of Cloud 3HKO from magic. ... probably still only 4HKOed, so I could be argued. But Cloud also has a chance to win by landing a limit through Illusion. And that, of course, is only if Illusion actually works on limits. If it doesn't, Arnaud is toast. Adds up to a Cloud vote.

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA): Ted for Light~
SuperBlackAielWizard (FF1DoS) vs. Quiet Qriryt (DQ4): This one is all yours, Super!

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike

Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2) vs. Bruiser Jade (BoF1)

Heavy

Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. PC Magus (CT)- So Black Hole is just about range? If so, yeah, Elc can deal with that.
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Decressed Lilka (WA2)
Pauper Orlandu (FFT) vs. White Mage Ryu (BoF3)

Middle

Agni'd Myria (BoF) vs. Bright Knight (BD)
Single Sword Hiro (Lunar 2) vs. Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4)- Hmmm

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)- Tiamat has 1 strongpoint.
Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT)
Busted Cloud (FF7) vs. ElfChallenge Arnaud (WA4)

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA)
SuperBlackAielWizard (FF1DoS) vs. Quiet Qriryt (DQ4)- He still has the buffs at least right? Uh...gut check.

[Random Consonant]

Godlike

Izanami-no-Okami (P4) vs. Pre-Rogue Blue (Saga Frontier) - well I hope OD -> MWB spam is good enough even with nerfed magic stats here because it kind of needs to be. e: yay!

Heavy

Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. PC Magus (CT)
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Decressed Lilka (WA2) - I guess?
Pauper Orlandu (FFT) vs. White Mage Ryu (BoF3)

Middle

Healer Yuna (FFX) vs. Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) - Trusting Elfboy.
Single Sword Hiro (Lunar 2) vs. Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4) - as usual coinflip ID deserves no rewarding ever

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4) - Edge still has Throw here which gets around Tiamat's defense.  Tiamat HP is nowhere near good enough to outslug in light of that.
Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT)
Busted Cloud (FF7) vs. ElfChallenge Arnaud (WA4)

Puny

SuperBlackAielWizard (FF1DoS) vs. Quiet Qriryt (DQ4) - Haste/Temper should still let him pull this off.  For Kiryl to pull this off he must both 6HKO BW (which involves BW being sub-0.6 pdur, which is possible) and avoid being 3HKO'd after Haste/one cast of Temper (and unless my math is wrong he's about half a percent shy from avoiding that.)

[Laggy]

Izanami-no-Okami (P4) vs. Pre-Rogue Blue (Saga Frontier) - Natural human mage stats probably put MegaWindblast at around 2000 damage in OD from my recollection. So uh ShadowServant + 7 of those = 14000 damage or so is around 2.2 PCHP. How durable do I see Izanami form 2 alone, uhhhhh 8000 HP? Yeah I think that kills (she's way more durable vs physical).

Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Decressed Lilka (WA2)
Pauper Orlandu (FFT) vs. White Mage Ryu (BoF3)

Healer Yuna (FFX) vs. Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) - Agree with NEB that ST doesn't work against Reflect. On the other hand I don't think I agree with it working on true MT stuff, Saga has AoE targeted effects that serve as a decent parallel to FFX's MT-able abilities, and I'd let Reflect bounce those but not stuff like MegaWindblast/ReverseGravity/VermillionSand/etc.

I hope we aren't hyping Implosion because it sucks and Blue basically never wants to use it: TimeEclipse is the status of choice (it's turn 1 to me). Are we assuming TimeEclipse is fatal on the second attempt? If Yuna is opening with Shell and then Reflect afterwards, Blue surely responds with TimeEclipse -> DarkSphere (removing 2 buffs with 1 action negates the turnsplit problem). Casting Shell again on a subsequent double leads to being petrified. She can't equip Stoneproof either because Tower OHKOs through Shell, which forces the Phantom Ring. So yeah Yuna doesn't get to use Shell in this fight.

Thus she has to open with Reflect and use Pray vs Blue's MT offense. Stripped of Shell's halving magical damage I'm not seeing how she survives unless Pray is way better than I remember.

Single Sword Hiro (Lunar 2) vs. Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4) - Going first with 50% does indeed beat non-100% going second.


Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT)

[Dark Holy Elf]

You're right, I forgot how much better Blue's Tower would be due to his JP pool being doubled. (She survives Nusakan's just fine in Shell.) But... hmm, I don't think it matters? Blue's doubled constantly after turn 1 to me (62% speed) so Yuna either turtles with a Stoneproof armour and Regen+Reflect, or a SOS Regen armour and Shell+Reflect. Nirvana obviously. This runs Blue out of JP at some point, his 1 JP options are all useless here and guns don't outpace regen.

Alternatively, if you don't see the turnsplit as so large, her best hope is probably to Auto-Life herself and reflect Blue (so that he can't heal), with Stoneproof so that she can't be petrified. 344 uses of Auto-Life/Reflect should outpace Blue's methods of getting rid of them, and regen wins the slugfest once Blue runs out of JP? Less sure about this.

[Dhyerwolf]

FFX didn't have any MT spells besides Ultima? (Not surprising, but just want to be sure I'm getting that right).

While Blue isn't as slow to me, I don't think it makes a difference. StoneProof+Anti-Lightning Spell. Auto-Life can then handle Implosion (assuming Null-Fire doesn't anyways).

[Laggy]

Oh if you see him being flat out doubled yeah he loses. I didn't think/don't know if I see the speed difference as that extreme.

[Dhyerwolf]

Well, even at my SD levels (-.15; which is to my knowledge, the lowest SD respect?), he's still 78% speed compared to Yuna's 125% Speed. She 3-2s him every time and occasionally 2-1s.

[Magic Fanatic]

Godlike

Izanami-no-Okami (P4) vs. Pre-Rogue Blue (Saga Frontier) - :Laggy:

Heavy

Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Decressed Lilka (WA2) - I want to say that Doublecast Death kills before Lilka can get off a Mystic: Life Orb or ID Immunity.

Middle

Healer Yuna (FFX) vs. Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) - I don't think Yuna's able to kill herself between Blue popping VitalityRune and Powergrab.  Sure the damage is going to suck, but it's not like Yuna can make anything stick herself anyway.  EnergyChain is another free spell that could give her problems due to the chance inflicting Palsy...  And of those three spells, only VitalityRune costs anything after Spell Mastery.  This Blue might be able to run her out of resources before she does him...  Yuna pretty much needs to open with Reflect or Auto-Life on herself or she just gets Death'd in the face.

Powergrab (in the home game) also ignores evade I believe, since it affects more than one target.  What this means is up in the air, but I could understand it getting around Reflect, myself.  Willing to lean Blue, since he deals more damage in this theoretical match of infinity.


Light

Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT) - Stop proccing means she can plink away forever.

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA) - By whatever math I've done, Ted 3HKOs and is an SD above average, Tear 6HKOs at best, 7-8HKOs on average with Nightmare.  Even with the guaranteed stun, the cast time is just way too long to make use of it, so Ted can get his potshots in.  Nevermind when Ted crits - if that doesn't outright kill Tear, it'll leave her having to cast Revitalize, which eats into her TP reserves like no tomorrow.  Her best best would be Nightmare -> Revitalize chains for as long as she can handle it, but she only has the TP to do that four times.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Ultima is the only MT spell in FFX, yes (out of the normal, magic skillsets. Enemy-only stuff which deals magic damage exists).

VitalityRune is a losing play because it gets met by dispel. PowerGrab is certainly not ITE... it's tough to say if it would go through reflect or not. (It goes through GlassShield, but is singletarget, evade-subject, and FFX reflect does catch Drain). I'd been assuming not since I chose to focus more on FFX reflect's properties than Saga Frontier's GlassShield-related things, but it's reasonable to go either way.

[SnowFire]

Heavy

Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Decressed Lilka (WA2)

Middle

Agni'd Myria (BoF) vs. Bright Knight (BD)
What a weird fight.  Myria's horrible damage allows Bright Knight to get off tons and tons of nearly max-power Minus Strikes, and it STILL ISN'T ENOUGH.  I'm not sure even a 5-turn average or a no-Braveing average would help!

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)
Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT)
Sure I'll buy the Stop hype.
Busted Cloud (FF7) vs. ElfChallenge Arnaud (WA4)
Well this comes down to an interp split: FF7 Limits can TECHNICALLY miss, but basically don't, while Illusion is one of the most badass hit-busters out there.  Although Cloud does have magic backup...  although Arnaud has Magic Blocker...  hrmm.  Cloud's magic is going to be half average damage or so...  and Arnaud needs to open with Shut Out for me lest Cloud just run around in circles, so Cloud gets 1 physical (if it'd even be better) in, maybe. 
How tough did you say Arnaud was with inital equipment, Elf?  Suspect Cloud might actually have this if it's frail enough...
EDIT: Gonna go Cloud since nobody math'd it.

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA)
SuperBlackAielWizard (FF1DoS) vs. Quiet Qriryt (DQ4)
Will super's bloody path of dagger stabbing lead him to the finals?!

[Dark Holy Elf]

0.62 pdur, 0.87 mdur, 62% evade. His magic damage will be somewhat lower than in the stat topic (his physical damage will be awful).

FF7 limits can't miss except against perfect evade... with the caveat that a few FF7 enemies have "before each attack, roll a d8, if it doesn't come up as a 1, set evade to perfect for this attack", i.e. yes they can evade limits with an evade which is not actually, in practice, perfect. Make of that what you will. I dunno, myself!

The fact that Cloud absolutely wins if his limits are seen as hitting (hell, even at a modest rate, since he's probably getting off Meteorrain at the very minimum here) any might still win even if not (Arnaud loses a turn on Illusion, and will... probably need to count on Magic Blocker to get that turn back, though I'm not certain, should run the numbers) does make me lean Cloud, but it's certainly a good fight.

[Nephrite]

Godlike

Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2) vs. Bruiser Jade (BoF1)
Izanami-no-Okami (P4) vs. Pre-Rogue Blue (Saga Frontier)

Heavy

Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. PC Magus (CT)
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Decressed Lilka (WA2)
Pauper Orlandu (FFT) vs. White Mage Ryu (BoF3) - zzzzz

Middle

Healer Yuna (FFX) vs. Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier)
Agni'd Myria (BoF) vs. Bright Knight (BD)
Single Sword Hiro (Lunar 2) vs. Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4)

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)
Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT) - How is this terrible character still winning
Busted Cloud (FF7) vs. ElfChallenge Arnaud (WA4)

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA)

[Reiska]

Heavy

Pauper Orlandu (FFT) vs. White Mage Ryu (BoF3)

Middle

Healer Yuna (FFX) vs. Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier) - Blue requires multiple favorable interpretations to win this one, I think, and I'm not comfortable giving him all of them.  Yuna's speed and resources advantages and Reflect are enough to give her the win here in my view.  I'd believe that Yuna doesn't win this until Blue runs out of JP, but Blue runs out of JP long before Yuna runs out of MP and once he does, Yuna has the fight on lockdown.
Single Sword Hiro (Lunar 2) vs. Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4) - Probably

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4) - Fumas > Tiamat's DEF
Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT) - Stop

Puny

SuperBlackAielWizard (FF1DoS) vs. Quiet Qriryt (DQ4) - Gonna go with this.  Even without the Sword of Miracles (which I'm inclined to allow), I think the balance of interps leans enough in his favor here.

EDIT: Gave BW/Cristo some more consideration.  I suspect the fight hinges quite heavily on how generous you are with equipment legality in both games.  If you allow Cristo the Sword of Miracles, he wins this handily.  I tend to lean towards allowing it, because while you only get two and there are four potential wielders, one of them has a better option (Solofia's Zenithian Sword), and no sane player is ever going to run all three other wielders in the party together for any length of time.  This is similar to FF4TAY legality arguments, so there's precedent.  Flip side, if you don't allow BW to use Dawn of Souls bonus dungeon equips, he definitely gives Cristo at least six turns and it becomes a question of whether Cristo can win in those six turns.  (Possibly more turns, depending on TB speed interps; BW's speed is gameworst, and Cristo's is above average, but both are TB duelers.) 

[superaielman]

Godlike

Holy Warrior Reicher (MK2) vs. Bruiser Jade (BoF1)
Izanami-no-Okami (P4) vs. Pre-Rogue Blue (Saga Frontier)

Heavy

Vincible Elc (AtL2) vs. PC Magus (CT)- Divide is hot garbage against that MDef but it still doesn't matter. I think Elc can just straight up run Magus out of MP here.
Knightless Lulu (FFX) vs. Decressed Lilka (WA2)
Pauper Orlandu (FFT) vs. White Mage Ryu (BoF3)

Middle

Healer Yuna (FFX) vs. Lazy Blue (Saga Frontier)- NOPE
Single Sword Hiro (Lunar 2) vs. Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4)

Light

Tiamat (FF1DoS) vs. Prince (of the) Light Edge (FF4)- Edge just has to take a single Tiamat attack, he can do that easily.
Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT)

Puny

Ted (Suiko1) vs. Songstress Tear (TotA)
SuperBlackAielWizard (FF1DoS) vs. Quiet Qriryt (DQ4)- I am uninclined to allow any of the bonus dungeon stuff for FF1 PCs nowadays, which makes Racially Insensitive Wizard's Pdur truly appalling.

[DragonKnight Zero]

Single Sword Hiro (Lunar 2) vs. Rune Walsh, proper magician (PS4)  Coinflip.  Since Hiro's ID is a physical tech, one could argue that Rune's Agility would be the stat to resist it in which case, he probably loses loses.


Diamond Mog (FF6) vs. Magicless Marle (CT)  Stop lock  Mog might get a turn or two which won't be enough.  He's going to look like a porcupine when it's over.  It also amuses me that 255 Defense Mog would eventually land Snare.