RPGDL 2015 Season 2, Week 4

[Cmdr_King]

Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier)

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)
Gau (Final Fantasy VI) vs Iga (Arc the Lad II)

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series)

Light

Yushis (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Shu (Arc the Lad II)
Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)

[Nephrite]

Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier) - Not like it matters who wins this, really.

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3) - Uh, I guess?
Gau (Final Fantasy VI) vs Iga (Arc the Lad II) - Iga really has no way of breaking past Magic Urn I don't think.

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series) - Offhand, I don't see much of a way for Raynie to win this unless she somehow 2HKOs and is 3HKOed?

Light

Yushis (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Shu (Arc the Lad II) - Yushis has a speed advantage but Shu does the type of damage she doesn't deal well with... eh, I'll give it to Yushis based on her potential dodging of one or two attacks.
Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)

[SnowFire]

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)
On one hand, Fou is definitely vulnerable to the gravity dragon summon, so Absorb has a good argument to work.  On the other hand, having actually played the game, I'd be inclined to give Fou his formchain despite this not being the classic interp...  although it pushes him close to Izanami levels of obnoxiousness.  Prolly 'lesca, but eh, abstain for now.

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)
Well I guess this is all about if you see Kiryl's ID as turn 1 or not.  I guess I'll go with this for now despite mumble grumble immune monsters should make ID look *worse* not better.

Middle

Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series)
Raynie's in Kiryl's spot here, if she has turn 1 sleep (despite a fair amount of status resistance in the final dungeon IIRC?) she wins and loses if she doesn't.  (She shouldn't need switch shenanigans if you care, too, although I'd allow it so moot.)   Nearly same claimed rate in both stat topics (75% & 77%).

[Random Consonant]

Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier) - e: actually no, CDG is still a thing, Elc can't deal with that.

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)
Gau (Final Fantasy VI) vs Iga (Arc the Lad II) - FF6 doesn't even have a paralysis status to immune... and even if I was inclined to be charitable towards FF6 PCs in that regard I'd still have to check shit I'd actually allow because seriously fuck Rage.  Seems fairest for me to abstain here thinking on it.

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series) - Raynie is faster than S1 Valeria so sleep can be turn 2 here.

Light

Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)

[superaielman]

Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)- Fou-Lu can be hit by gravity type attacks in game? Sucks to be him then!
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier)- Ugly.

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)- Both silence and ID are functionally fatal here.
Gau (Final Fantasy VI) vs Iga (Arc the Lad II)- Agree with Neph here offhand? Gau's faster and can wall the status. E: Oooh, FF6 has no paralysis? That... is a problem. I could see stop defense hitting paralyze but Amador fist is a thing.  E: Gau immunes gravity? Never mind that!

Light

Yushis (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Shu (Arc the Lad II)- I think? Jihad's a 3HKO here (It's better damage than Halo here thanks to Shu HP and evasion, even with it ignoring the defense) and I don't think Shu can kill her before she gets three shots off. He'd have to go first and hit all three times, which isn't likely.
Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)- Kneejerk of Innes being bad.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier)

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)
Gau (Final Fantasy VI) vs Iga (Arc the Lad II)

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series)

Light

Yushis (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Shu (Arc the Lad II)
Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier)- Everybody is jumping in the typical TL vs PC vote, but Elc has like 3 PC Mdur and can block defense to block Stone. TL can't do that much damage, so what does he follow up with after OD?

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)- Abstaining
Gau (Final Fantasy VI) vs Iga (Arc the Lad II)- 100% Paralysis trolling leads to Amaidar Fist trolling leads back to 100% Paralysis trolling since Iga is above average speed to me (Slightly different levels/not counting Diek in averages since Diek raises people's levels at the very least meaning using him actually gets you higher and his stats don't look as good; not to mention the extreme spikes).

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series)- Abstaining here.

Light

Yushis (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Shu (Arc the Lad II)
Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)

[Random Consonant]

MysticSword exists, and Elc doesn't have any real recourse against TL spamming coup de grace attempts here under OD, and going Cure-All/Magic Canceller means Elc's pdur is now quite averagish so there really shouldn't be a problem getting Elc into reliable CDG range with that.  Unless we're somehow hyping Magic Canceller working against that, because if so I am not down with that.

[Dhyerwolf]

I'm assuming that would be because Saga doesn't have basic physical attacks? Is there an enemy in idea where using OD in order to try and trigger a CDG is even a good idea?

I'm assuming that Overdrive stops enemy counters while still allow CDG? And that it stops enemy evasion?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm assuming that would be because Saga doesn't have basic physical attacks? Is there an enemy in idea where using OD in order to try and trigger a CDG is even a good idea?

That's a premier strategy for grabbing high-end Mystic absorbs for TL, actually. I did that on Dullahans and Suzakus fairly often. Also, SaGa -so- does have basic physicals. It's what you use in the early game until you start learning techs, after all. <_<

[Random Consonant]

I'm assuming that Overdrive stops enemy counters while still allow CDG? And that it stops enemy evasion?

Good point, I'm not exactly sure but I'm not sure it matters, since one counter won't kill TL, Elc's evasion is unspecial and blocking is irrelevent.  So to me, 6 TimeEclipses puts Elc under CureAll/Magic Canceller at 66.1% HP, which gives TL roughly a 55% CDG chance with two OD turns remaining.  Though I guess 3 PCHP is based on that setup and excluding Dieck so that strategy would put him around 72% HP under that figure which gives TL a 45% CDG chance which... still has a better than 70% chance to trigger in those remaining two turns since even if the first attempt fails Elc will likely have lost some HP making the second attempt more likely, so this should still work out.

[Cmdr_King]

Doesn't the game only take CDG odds at the start of the round, thus TL's stuck at the base 9% rate during the full OD?

[Random Consonant]

It checks HP before the triggering attack.  If it was stuck at 9% in OD it'd be pretty awful and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't get hyped in the stat topic as an option for TL.

[Dhyerwolf]

3 PC HP is with Diek. Every offensive move in ATL 2 is either subject to counters or magic canceller. That said, opting for CureAll does lower it the PDur notably (The Mdur a little, but not enough for him to die to the TL rush).

At least there is a good reason the strat. It won't matter for me I believe since I'm changing over to a new status formulation that I strongly suspect will not be beneficial to TL's ID rates (Switching over to 50% accuracy, but status accuracy is now averaged over all enemies (aka includes immunities)). I also see the Saga damage average as higher (Granted...TL may end up being helped by this potentially since it was basic Mystic damage absorbs that I saw). Also remember to cut a %s off Coup De Grace due to Elc having an above average level.

I'm guessing Petrify is an instant win?

[Random Consonant]

Hmm?  Elc has to give up the Bravery Wings for Cure All/Magic Canceller which puts him at 2.56 effective mdur with Dieck in the averages (and so the -4.5% to status odds doesn't save Elc to me), and yeah if he goes for Bravery Wings/Magic Canceller (which would put him just shy of 3.0 effective mdur) one of those eight chances of petrify will likely land so he can't really afford that.

On an idle unrelated note since I don't think I ever got it, what -is- Elc's claim to the Magic Canceller anyways?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I think nobody else can equip it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV): Close. 'lesca should kill in six attacks or so to me, taking 19% per swing. Fou does 107% with the first Dark Wave, then 82%, then 68% with physicals from there. He needs three physicals to close the job (Yunalesca's Absorb healing doesn't buy her another hit). So he needs to get 5 turns, which means he needs to avoid a 6-5. That... he's below average, and Yunalesca does that to average. Very close though.
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier): Hyping immune enemies in the average for TimeLord while giving his opponent a statusblocker is a pretty serious case of double-counting.

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3): Kiryl isn't immune to petrify, so as soon as Angela starts charging she wins. The question is when that happens... and I don't know. I'm certainly not terribly comfortable with her having initiative petrify, but it certainly could be seen as reasonably speedy. On another note... holy shit, Stopspell is awful. 100% accurate... on the one enemy it hits, compared to eight enemies immune? Gah. Kinda tempted to toss Angela a vote here, but I'm not really sure. If anyone wants to argue me, feel free.

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission): Hippopressor not that great against someone with magic to destroy the shark missiles, and enough durability/damage/etc. to do fine otherwise.
Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series): Faster, so yeah turn 2 status is fine if that's what it is.

Light

Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones): I imagine?

[Nephrite]

Question: Does Magic Urn get everything except whatever status Nightshade does?

[Pyro]

Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV): Yunalesca gets 3 forms, Fou-Lu gets 2. But 2 is enough I think...
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier): Coup de Grace.

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)
Gau (Final Fantasy VI) vs Iga (Arc the Lad II): Immunes everything Iga does like a boss.

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series)

Light

Yushis (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Shu (Arc the Lad II): Shu can Time Bomb -> Charge -> Unleash ITE physical damage along with Time Bomb's 50% MHP damage... but it's wind/thunder  elemental which Yushis resists! She lives! And 3HKOS!
Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones): Just going with the (ice) flow here.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Magic Urn gets everything immunable in FF6, yes. (Including stop, poison, seizure, and gravity, so the Iga arguments don't make much sense to me. If those statuses went through boss immunity that would be one thing...)

[SnowFire]

Since nobody wants to talk about Innes vs. Lily...

Usual "no MK2" proviso but using my / Dhyer's topic, this is mostly down to allowing Nidhogg for Innes or not.    (He also probably loses with Dhyerviews / FE8 Killers.)  Lily definitely misses a 2HKO herself but definitely hits a 3-turn faster kill by a lot.  So it's all down to Innes managing a 2HKO.  Innes solidly misses the 2HKO on Lily with a Silver Bow and solidly 2HKOs with Nidhogg (unless you REALLY amp the damage average up in revenge, of course, rather than just giving the goods to Josh / Tana).

[Dhyerwolf]

Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier): Hyping immune enemies in the average for TimeLord while giving his opponent a statusblocker is a pretty serious case of double-counting.

I'm aware of this, but the reality is that even counting immune enemies, there is still a whole unpredictability factor inherent in status that often makes it worse than the actual listed hit rate (Sometimes. Depending on the game). So it comes down to a matter of balancing. Someone is going to be hurt no matter what because do just the way that DL works.

Part of my issue with the current balance is that it can say little about how good status actually truly is. I just played through BoD 7 and ATL 2. ATL 2's Status Wind spells are awesome, but suck in the DL (they are awesome because they will hit everything with nearly the same status rate). BoD 7 has Lita with turn 1 statuses that basically most enemies just laugh at. ATL 2 status is clearly "better" in game for use, but much worse in the DL. Once I get more specific notes on more games, I may change formulation. But if it comes down to making status worse or making it better, in game usage generally says "make it worse."

[Dark Holy Elf]

In general I applaud all attempts to reflect immune enemies in status, something we don't historically do. But the solution isn't to hit status' performance both by the status immunities present in the DL and stack that with the status immunities present in-game, I don't feel, because you will very often literally end up hitting someone twice for the same thing, especially for some of the statuses which get immuned a lot in the DL as is. I'm not sure what the best way to go about doing this is. Maybe assume a "baseline" for status immunity and punish things which are immuned extra often, i.e. significantly more often than the DL as a whole immunes them? I dunno.

I'm more than a little miffed that this view is being put forward while simultaneously trying to push Iga past someone with full status immunity, which is completely at odds with your stated goal to err on the side of making status worse.

[Pyro]

Dhyer throws out a particular PC from AtL2 which lowers the sped average enough to make Iga above average rather than below. But maybe Gau with the tiger mask or dark gear is faster? If Gau can use that and not be 2HKOd he can win with Nightshade.

[Random Consonant]

It actually makes Iga dead average, AtL2 speed differences are narrow and the cast is pretty large, so while Dieck is a huge outlier (+2.5 SD!) his removal only lowers the speed average from 24.1 to 23.8, so Gau is surely faster anyways.  Surely his exclusion is really only relevent for durability figures.

This said for my own part I am particularly inclined to be harsh towards what rages I'd actually allow Gau but that requires ~research~ that I don't feel up to doing so I'm abstaining now.