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Author Topic: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition  (Read 21133 times)

Reiska

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Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« on: November 05, 2015, 07:12:42 PM »
TL;DR this is kind of like Meeple's topic, except that I'm going to focus entirely on games which have low playership in the DL and thus would never go in Meeple's topic.  Because of this, unlike Meeple's topic, I'll generally post my own ratings from the get-go since it's entirely possible a game I cover might not get any attention from anyone else.

Really this is more for discussion than generating rankings over time like in Meeple's topic since the sample sizes won't really be large enough anyway.

So, I will start with... a big cast, actually.

Super Robot Wars Judgment!  But since the cast is so big, I'm going to do something different: rather than rate each unit or pilot individually, I'm going to give a single collective rating for all the robots/pilots in a given series, in the context of "how good is this series as a favored pick."  Given that SRW J makes you pick three series as "favorites," this is perhaps actually a bit relevant.

However, for the sake of clarity: I am not rating the battleships with their series, because they're always forced.

Banpresto Originals: 6/10.  Not counting the secret, unlockable 4th playthrough and beyond only original mecha, but all of the initial three are still quite good.  It's difficult to say which of the three is best or worst, as all of them have unique advantages and disadvantages relative to each other.  In any case, the OC is a forced deployment on a fair number of stages, and I can't think of any reason you wouldn't want to deploy them when given the option.  All three of the subpilots are good, too, for different reasons; I generally think Melua is the best one due to the +1 movement and the fantastic pool of support seishins, but Katia is probably better than her overall if you're running Bellzelute, and Festenia is situationally useful for stages where you face FMP or Tekkaman bosses due to Strike.  So why the low score?  Because at the end of the day, you're using up one of your three favored series picks on a single mech that is really still very good without the extra upgrades and doesn't need the help.

Martian Successor Nadesico: 7/10.  The battleship is really amazing, of course, but it's not included in this rating.  Outside of the battleship, all you get from Nadesico is a whole bunch of Aestivalis units.  Aestivalis units basically owe all of their usability long-term to their combination attacks.  Akatsuki has no combination attacks, and a really poor seishin pool to boot, so he's generally just trash and never worth using when not forced.  Akito has a good endgame if you unlock Gai (especially if Gai benefits from the bug which benefits him if unlocked on a first playthrough), but if you don't, he's only barely better than Akatsuki.  For most of the game, the Ryoko/Izumi/Hikaru trio are the stars of the cast as such, and they're very usable - the Gravity Wave Antenna eliminates most of the drawbacks of heavy combination attack spamming due to the EN refill.  So overall, this is not a bad favored series pick.  In short, you get three consistently fairly good units (though they have to be used together), two inconsistently fairly good units (one of whom is secret-dependent), and one unambiguously bad unit.  And the battleship of course, which doesn't need the help and is not included in this rating (if I did, it would push it up a point, so hey).

Mobile Suit Gundam SEED: 5/10.  Kira and later Cagalli are really the only vaguely usable units from Gundam SEED for 3/4 of the game, honestly.  And both of them are generally among your poorer units overall for most of that 3/4.  In the last 3/4 you do get to pick up Athrun, Dearka, and the Eternal; Eternal is probably the best endgame supply/repair unit, due to its battleship stats (I don't count it as a battleship, though, given that it does consume a deployment slot).  Kira and Athrun are excellent units endgame with the Meteor packs, but they only get six stages with them and they don't really need the help of extra upgrades with mechs like that.  Overall I think this is probably one of the worse favored series picks as such; it'd be better if midgame Kira/the Strike Gundam weren't so relatively weak and the Skygraspers weren't worse than Blue Earth (although I guess Skygrasper with Sword pack is an interesting niche).  Ultimately, you have two great endgame combat units (one of whom is lackluster for most of the game before the end and one of whom doesn't exist for most of the game), one of the best endgame support units (who doesn't exist for most of the game), two mediocre combat units (who don't exist for most of the game), one fairly lackluster combat unit, and one more unit who plot-dies before endgame and is generally the worst unit in the cast when he's around.  Meh.

Mobile Fighter G Gundam: 7/10.  In a lot of ways, this pick is "Nadesico plus," as the units share Nadesico's trait of being all somewhat lackluster when taken alone but heavily improved by combination attacks.  The Gundam Fighters are, individually, probably slightly better than the Aestivalis pilots despite having some significant durability issues.  They suffer from having 5 move, though.  Like Aestivalises, they live and die by their combination attacks.  The G Gundam cast are overall improved notably more by their combinations than Nadesico's pilots are, but they also have to wait until 2/3 of the way through the game for them.  I feel this is really kind of a binary pick; more than likely, you're either going to be filling half your deployment slots with the entire G Gundam cast to abuse all the combination attacks, or you won't be using any of them at all save for maybe Domon.  If you ARE going to use the whole cast, then this is an excellent favored series pick.  If you're not, I probably wouldn't bother.

Brain Powered: 8/10.  See G Gundam/Nadesico, except that all the units are individually quite decent on their own.  You get a whopping ten units out of this pick and all of them are at least halfway decent (Yuu and Hime are probably worth using even without being a favored pick).  The units themselves are all basically identical to one another, they all have combination attacks with other Brain Powered pilots in pairs, they all have damage shields and afterimage, and they have relatively high damage for SRW J reals.  Probably one of the best favored series picks, objectively speaking, even if the units are all really samey.

Blue Comet SPT Layzner: 5/10.  As a favored series pick, Layzner has most of the same problems as Gundam SEED, but magnified.  It has fewer units in general, and only one is really a good combat unit individually.  Layzner does get a combination attack with Baybull and Buldy if you use all three, but Layzner is a good (not great) unit without the combination, and the two of them are lackluster without it and have a hard time keeping up with Layzner's movement rate.  This pick is basically giving you one decent combat unit and two or three mediocre support units.  There are worse picks, probably?

Full Metal Panic: 6/10.  Most of what I said about Layzner applies here, except that Kurz and Mao are better than Baybull and Buldy.  So you get one amazing combat unit (Sosuke) and two okay ones (Kurz and Mao).  This pick does go a long way in making Bonta-kun more usable...

Super Electromagnetic Machine Voltes V: 4/10.  Single-robot pick that isn't as good as Banpresto Original (and it still doesn't really need the help).

Mazinkaiser: 8/10.  A pick that's good despite the relatively small unit count.  Favored series takes Mazinkaiser and Great Mazinger from "really good" to "broken" (as their armor upgrades are normally capped at 5, not the usual 10), and Boss Borot (which is pretty good in this game if given a Flight Unit) also benefits greatly.  If you're going to favor a small unit count series, this one is a much better choice than Gundam SEED or Layzner or FMP.

Super Beast Machine God Dancougar: 3.5/10.  Single-robot pick that isn't as good as Banpresto Original (and it still doesn't really need the help).  Slightly worse than Voltes overall due to the high Will requirements for everything.

Space Knight Tekkaman Blade: 5/10.  Effectively a single-robot pick, since the only other worthwhile unit is deep lategame, the Sol Tekkamen are so bad, and Blue Earth is a support unit that probably won't see much combat.  Blue Earth is a really good support unit though, so you could do worse.

Super Electromagnetic Robot Combattler V: 4/10.  Single-robot pick that isn't as good as Banpresto Original (and it still doesn't really need the help.  Very slightly worse than Voltes.

Hades Project Zeorymer: 5/10.  Single-robot pick that isn't as good as Banpresto Original (and it still doesn't really need the help).  Although if you unlock Great Zeorymer, then it's better than Banpresto Original for the last 1/4 of the game, so....
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 08:09:42 PM by Reiska »

Reiska

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 08:36:54 PM »
I had some time to kill yesterday, so I went ahead and wrote up my thoughts on another obscure game.  Below, I discuss the original Labyrinth of Touhou.

A few notes should be made about how I'm evaluating in-game use here, given the variations in how LoT1 can be played.  The game has a cast of 40 playable PCs overall.  Of the 40 playable PCs, 14 are required recruits that cannot be missed in a normal playthrough of the game without glitches (glitches do allow you to skip one of them, not that you'd want to).  18 are optional PCs of varying recruitment difficulty.  The remaining 8 PCs join in the aftergame.

On an initial runthrough of the game, these characters are all unlocked over time.  However, on replays, you can choose to carry over some or all of the following from a clear file: your unlocked characters, your levels, your equipment, and your character upgrades.  In practice, many LoT1 players carry over only the unlocked characters and nothing else for replays, allowing full party customization from the word go.

For the 14 required PCs, I will simply be rating them on their in-game use in a regular New Game run.  This means that availability will be a factor in the rating.
For the 18 optional PCs, I will likewise simply rate them on their in-game use in a regular New Game run.  This means that particularly annoying to unlock characters may lose points from their in-game use rating because of the annoyingness of the unlock.
For the 8 aftergame PCs, I will rate them on their in-game use in a regular New Game run in the aftergame only.

Most PCs will have comments attached about things that differ in NG+ all-characters-unlocked runs.  Without further ado...

The Required PCs

Reimu Hakurei: 9.5/10.  She's available for the entire game from start to finish, and you would never want to remove her from the party; she's the only source of strong MT healing in the game, the only source of MT defensive buffing for 90% of the game, and she does decent (if not spectacular) damage for random clearing.  She'd be a 10/10 if her damage was better.  It's possible to beat the game without her, but she makes the game far easier by existing.  Even in NG+, she remains clearly in the top 12 PCs in the game and should probably stay in the party from start to finish.

Marisa Kirisame: 5/10.  Okay earlygame filler, but she should be one of the first characters to leave the party once you start getting extra PCs.  She's good at random clearing, but her boss damage gets worse and worse over time, thanks to the fact that she's mono-element and her element, Mystic, is the most resisted element in the game by bosses and randoms alike.  Master Spark also really does not do quite enough damage for its SP cost.  She does get one last hurrah though as probably being your best source of Mystic damage against Rinnosuke.  In NG+, you can probably just field one of her various replacements from the beginning rather than ever bothering with her.  She might still see use there against Rinnosuke, but you might well just handle the Mystic phase with a non-elemental nuke like Nitori's too.

Remilia Scarlet: 8/10.  She's your earlygame tank, and can hold her own in the role for the entire game if desired or if you miss the optional PCs.  Her defense is still "good enough" for the most part when she's built offensively, and she probably should be built offensively so that her usefulness holds up better once the optional tanks are in play.  Even if you build her defensively and ultimately replace her, though, she's one of the strongest earlygame PCs; lategame relative weakness doesn't severely detract from her use.  Her main drawback is that her powerful self-buff requires either loading her equipment slots with status protection or carrying a status healer PC alongside her, and the best status healer PC is the one that's also a better tank than her.  In NG+, she's not useful as a tank, and should always be built offensively if used; her overall offensive output isn't spectacular, but it is cheap, and thus she's still a great earlygame PC, so her use doesn't change a whole lot.

Sakuya Izayoi: 6/10.  Cheap MT damage is great earlygame, but that doesn't stay hugely useful for long and her offense falls off hard as the game goes on and starts running into defense.  She's good earlygame filler, and probably better than Marisa in the long run.  MT Speed buffing is great but can be difficult to strategize around because it can do weird things to turn order; plus, the SP cost is prohibitively high before deep lategame to get much use out of it.  Her NG+ use isn't too much different, since cheap MT is no less valuable there.

Patchouli Knowledge: 7/10.  Earlygame filler that is still usable lategame, although she does fall off due to the combination of gameworst HP, gameworst defense, and gameworst speed.  She's saved from complete irrelevance by having gamebest magic defense; even lategame she'll completely soak many magical attacks.  She would be a good random sweeper if she had speed, but she doesn't, so she's really just best at nuking bosses, and since her boss nuke is non-elemental, she does this well.  Probably best used with speed buffs from someone like Sakuya or Aya.  NG+ probably makes her a little better since Aya is in play slightly earlier, though on the flip side she has to compete with Suwako sooner than usual.

Chen: 7/10.  Cheap MT damage is great earlygame, and unlike Sakuya, her offense gets better and better as the game goes on and her speed growth starts running away from the pack.  She's very one-note overall: use Kimontonkou, spam Flight of Idaten, then switch herself out before the boss gets a turn, because she'll probably die as soon as anything hits her.  NG+ has no meaningful effect on her since she's fairly self-contained and was always an early recruit.

Cirno: 7/10.  Cheap MT damage, earlygame, etc.  Like Sakuya, her raw offense is okay at best and falls off over time, but she's decently fast and has a high success rate MT Paralyze (and powerful Speed debuffs) that keep her relevant long after her damage has gone down the toilet.  Her damage may as well be nonexistent by deep lategame, but she's almost worth the party slot on the basis of the MT paralysis alone, since it can inflict the status regardless of whether she breaks defense or not, and it's resisted much less often than you might expect.  She probably is not final boss material.  She suffers quite a bit in NG+; Mystia is better at paralyzing randoms than she is, leaving her only the speed debuffs and lower SP costs to stand out on.  As such, she could see earlygame use, but should probably give way to Mystia as soon as 80 SP attacks stop being prohibitively expensive and only come out when the Speed debuffs specifically are needed.

Youmu Konpaku: 6/10.  Her SP costs are pretty much prohibitive in the early/midgame for the most part, although she makes a decent offensive tank against randoms.  She gets better and better as the game progresses, and is probably the best source of Wind damage against Rinnosuke.  Ultimately, she's a pretty good endgame PC but she blooms very, very late.  Luckily, LoT1 is a game where you can let her sit on the bench until then and she'll still do reasonably okay.  In NG+, she now has to compete with Kanako and Maribel for anti-Rinnosuke Wind damage, but is probably still the best of the three to field in that fight.  She doesn't benefit from earlier availability by any means.

Alice Margatroid: 8/10.  Modest attacker that can hit both defenses fairly well (she's better at hitting defense), has surprisingly decent durability for a damage-dealer (comparable to Reimu), and piles debuffs on her enemies.  Her best boss-killing attack is fire element, which is a fairly good element to have, and she can fall back on Little Legion if needed for non-elemental offense.  All-around solid PC that is pretty consistently useful throughout.  Her SP costs are a little high for the part of the game before her normal join time, but overall NG+ doesn't change much for her.

Ran Yakumo: 9.5/10.  Great random sweeping, great boss offense, and great endgame MT buffing that even buffs your back line (an ability completely unique to her).  And she has decent durability on top of this package, at least on par with the likes of Wriggle.  One of the best all-around PCs in the game and she's handed to you on a silver platter.  Her SP costs are fairly high for the part of the game before her normal join time, but not enough to seriously hold her back more than most PCs; she performs reasonably okay in earlygame in NG+ as such.

Reisen Udongein Inaba: 5.5/10.  A definite late-bloomer like Youmu, but she doesn't bloom as strongly as Youmu, either.  Until you reach the endgame levels where she can spam Grand Patriot's Elixir several times and still have SP left to nuke with, she's basically only useful for the all-stat debuff on Discarder.  Discarder is a pretty good trick against things vulnerable to debuffs though, so even before Elixir spam is viable, she's never truly bad.  In NG+, you might think she has to compete with Maribel much earlier, but Maribel's SP costs are prohibitive for quite a while, so she can still see some use in the midgame.

Eirin Yagokoro: 3/10.  She's a notably worse Alice that comes later.  She'd be better if Hourai Elixir's unique effect actually worked properly, but unfortunately for her, it does not.  Her biggest attack costs way too much SP for the damage it does.  The only time she's likely to see play is a run in which the optional PCs are all intentionally skipped, and even then, only as filler until Yukari comes along.  In NG+, she should sit on the bench the entire game unless you're doing some kind of bizarre draft run where you got badly screwed by the other participants, in which you could probably, with enough grinding, make her into a barely usable tank.

Yukari Yakumo: 10/10.  Reimu variant who trades MT healing for MT Quick.  It's as dumb as it sounds and I don't really need to say anything else.  It's only practical in endgame and her personal offense is poor (worse than Reimu's), so she's not quite as dominating in NG+ before this trick becomes practical.  In normal play, it's practical as soon as she's recruited.  She's a deep lategame PC, but is usable and good immediately.  The attack that depends on Ran and Chen in the front lines is strong, but too impractical to really ever use due to Chen's fragility.  In NG+, she's probably best left benched until midgame, when the SP costs of her spells stop being prohibitive.  Basically, she's pretty poor for the parts of the game before her usual join time due to lack of SP.

Rinnosuke Morichika: 7/10.  The final PC recruited in the main game.  He has overall very high stats, but his skillset is a bit subpar, and ultimately he's probably best played as a backup tank.  World-Shaking Military Rule makes for a pretty decent panic button in endgame boss fights, but it's once-per-dungeon-trip.  Like Yukari, he's mostly useless in NG+ before his usual join time due to lack of SP.

The Optional PCs

Hong Meiling: 9/10.  She's an optional PC, though very difficult to miss.  Probably the gamebest tank overall; she has extremely good HP and defense, and while her magic defense is subpar, her raw HP largely makes up for the deficiency, as does her ability to self-heal.  She also provides good party utility by being able to cure status ailments, and she can do passable ST damage in randoms in a pinch.  Like Reimu, the reason she doesn't get a 10 is because she doesn't do everything.  She's incredibly easy to pick up, so skipping her is either foolish or a self-imposed challenge.  In NG+, she can (and should) be in your party from start to finish.

Minoriko Aki: 8/10.  Easily recruited optional PC.  She's basically a worse Reimu - her offense is roughly similar (though of a different element), and her support and healing, while equally strong, are ST instead of MT.  However, her support and healing are also far more SP-efficient and faster-acting than Reimu's.  If you only NEED ST healing or buffing, it's much better to have Minoriko do it than Reimu, so using both of them is not redundant.  That said, she also has survivability issues Reimu does not, which keep her from being higher rated.  Worth noting that her offense is pretty close to ITD, although still not great even with that due to low bases.  NG+ changes her little, as she was already available very early.

Rumia: 5/10.  Easily recruited optional PC.  She's basically Marisa that trades Master Spark and MT damage for some weak ITD and a very weak MT heal that removes debuffs.  The latter can be an important niche in a couple boss fights.  Her ST nuke is surprisingly powerful for its low SP cost.  She has all of the same problems as Marisa, being mono-element Mystic, and Marisa is better than her against Rinnosuke.  In aftergame, the MT heal starts to accelerate in power faster than your HP grows, and it ultimately becomes a pretty decent heal by the end of aftergame, possibly justifying using her over Reimu if you get the defensive buffing from Yukari instead.  She has a little extra value in NG+ as a cheap ST nuker for the earlygame before her usual join, but otherwise doesn't change much.

Wriggle Nightbug: 7/10.  Easily recruited optional PC.  She's one of the best slot 2 offtanks for boss fights.  Her raw offense is mostly bad, but her poison is very strong in the maingame and doesn't depend on her offensive stats, so pump her defenses.  Building her offenses DOES make her a better random sweeper, but makes her much less safe to keep in against bosses as a slot 2 offtank.  Sadly, in the aftergame, she very quickly falls off into complete uselessness. :(  NG+ doesn't change her much, either; she's viable from the start. 

Yuugi Hoshiguma: 7.5/10.  Optional PC, fairly hard to miss but somewhat tedious to recruit.  Ultimately, though, you can't miss the requirement (it's 400 battles won, and you will easily get that well before endgame), so I didn't penalize her for it..  Anyway, she's a sidegrade to Remilia in randoms, and a physical powerhouse against bosses, if a fire element one.  She's one of the better sources of Fire damage against Rinnosuke, possibly the best.  Her lack of strong MT holds her usefulness back somewhat, since she doesn't sweep randoms very well.  Obviously, NG+ benefits her by cutting out the recruitment, and she has low-cost options for earlygame.

Aya Shameimaru: 7/10.  Easily recruited optional PC.  She's basically a Sakuya variant who trades the MT speed buffing for much more efficient ST speed buffing (which tends to be just as useful) and notably better offense.  She makes a great random sweeper for most of the maingame, but against bosses is largely relegated to buffing as her damage is fairly subpar in raw power.  She's perfectly viable in earlygame in NG+.

Iku Nagae: 9.5/10.  Easily recruited optional PC.  She's a fairly decent random sweeper, but this isn't what gives her the high rating; the high rating comes from her having the single best offensive buff in the game while also having decent physical durability and gamebest magical durability.  Built offensively, she's nowhere near as good of a magic tank and does merely "okay" damage, so she should probably go with the defensive build.  The buff's one drawback (paralyze infliction) can be obviated with status resistance equips, and her attacks debuff enemy defense, so when combined with a party of strong physical attackers, she is an absurdly effective force multiplier.  Should pretty much always be glued to your party once you get her, if playing optimally.  She's perfectly viable in earlygame in NG+ for the most part, although the buff should probably be avoided before paralysis resistance is available unless you can use Meiling's turn to cure paralysis off.

Komachi Onozuka: 7/10.  Relatively easily recruited optional PC.  All of her attacks inflict ID at various success rates (the best being 75%) and she can also do MT debuffing and poison/paralyze as well.  Her paralysis isn't as good as Cirno's, her poison isn't as good as Wriggle's, and her debuffs aren't as good as the specialists, but she's a pretty good all-in-one "Make the enemies suck" PC.  Game-best HP, but game-worst defenses; she is probably best built as an attacker, not as an HP tank, as the latter role is only effective in a couple specific fights and Meiling can usually suffice.  One of the better sources of Spirit damage against Rinnosuke; though not necessarily the best, she is the easiest of the good ones to get.  In NG+, she can ID a fair number of earlygame bosses, since the developer didn't give any of the bosses recruited before she joins ID protection, and her ID isn't horribly expensive either, so even if you don't use her long-term, she trivializes basically every boss fight before 7F.

Suwako Moriya: 8/10.  Easily recruited optional PC.  She's basically Patchouli who trades away the magic durability to not have game-worst speed.  She should be specced for physical attack, not magic, as her boss nuke is physical.  Very fragile PC to everything, but so long as you switch her out before she can get smacked by anything, she does some of the highest damage ST nuking in the game.  Best source of both Cold and Nature damage against Rinnosuke.  Her MT is a little expensive for early game, but she can still ST earlygame fine, for NG+ usage.

Sanae Kochiya: 7/10.  Fairly easily recruited optional PC.  Overall, she's a Minoriko variant.  Her attacks hit harder than Minoriko's at base, but lack the ITD component.  Her heal is less powerful, slower and more expensive, but also removes status ailments and debuffs.  Her buff is less powerful, slower and more expensive, but buffs all stats instead of just defense and magic defense.  I consider it to be a losing trade on the whole, and she comes notably later than Minoriko, but she's still a good support PC.  Her deficiencies relative to Minoriko do shrink as the game goes on, particularly in aftergame.  She performs fairly well in earlygame in NG+, though SP economy on her healing can be a problem.

Nitori Kawashiro: 8/10.  Annoying to recruit optional PC; it depends on running into specific random formations on certain floors.  The recruit annoyance is worth about a full point loss to me.  Anyway, she's the game's best damage dealer; PDLC99MW is the strongest attack in the game and is a lot cheaper than most of the things which come close to it, and it's even non-elemental, which is usually a net positive in this game.  She backs it up with pretty good random sweeping, too.  She's the one PC affected by the game version; in versions prior to 2.06, she loses around three to four points or so, as her big nuke does a little over a third less damage (which brings it down to being pretty mediocre), and she's probably not really worth using there.  She performs perfectly well in NG+ from start to finish.

Tenshi Hinanawi: 7.5/10.  Optional PC; loses a point for a mildly annoying recruitment process that involves the switch puzzles on 10-12F.  Alongside Meiling, she's the other contender for gamebest tank; she sports notably higher defenses than Meiling but, oddly enough, combines them with a mildly below average HP pool.  The net effect of this is that while she tends to just completely soak damage an awful lot of the time, she gets quickly shredded by things she doesn't soak and ITD in particular completely murders her when Meiling might survive on her HP pool.  Instead of a self-heal, she can cap her defenses, and instead of curing ally status ailments, she can (attempt to) cancel enemy buffs.  She's better than Meiling in some fights and overall probably worth getting despite the hassle.  NG+ cuts out the recruitment, and her primary function doesn't depend on SP, so it obviously improves her use.

Fujiwara no Mokou: 3/10.  Optional PC, mildly easy to recruit.  That said... she's also a worse Alice that comes later.  Honestly, she's probably worse than Eirin; the only thing she has better than Eirin is speed, and only barely.  There's not much else to say about her.  She would be a fairly skippable benchwarmer, if not for the fact that recruiting her is required for Kaguya (in fact, that's pretty much the entirety of her real in-game use).  Which means that in NG+, she's a permanent benchwarmer.

Flandre Scarlet: 5/10.  Optional PC, loses two points for being extremely annoying to recruit - it involves the switch puzzles and having high battle counts on the initial party members, many of whom have probably been dropped from the party by the time you get close to her.  Also, you get no hints, so she's FAQ bait.  If you DO recruit her, she's still not especially great in the main game due to her self-damaging property.  Her primary utility is in the aftergame, where she drastically speeds up the process of grinding for the final superboss.  NG+ doesn't change anything but the recruitment being gone, obviously.

Suika Ibuki: 6.5/10.  Optional PC, fairly easy to recruit.  She's a Yuugi variant, trading physical durability for magical durability (she still has better PDur than Yuugi has MDur) and with a wind element nuke instead of fire element.  She's a good source of Wind damage against Rinnosuke, but may not be better than Youmu.  Her self-buff is fantastic if you give her debuff resistance equips, and she can cure status ailments and the debuffs (however, she cannot do so without also removing buffs, so it's a mild double-edged sword).  Like Yuugi, she's poor at random sweeping.  She loses half a point compared to Yuugi for having a slightly slower leveling rate (and thus worse stats).

Yuyuko Saigyouji: 4/10.  Optional PC, loses three points for her recruitment - it involves the switch puzzles and having high battle counts on a number of party members who are fairly unlikely to reach those counts, and you're given no hints so it's FAQ bait.  If you recruit her, she's the best Spirit element attacker in the game, if horribly SP-inefficient, is equally good at ST ID as Komachi, and has the best MT ID in the game.  She also delays enemy turns with some of her attacks, though this effect doesn't work as well against bosses, unfortunately.  She's a very good PC if recruited (and her worth goes up in NG+ for this reason), but even so, is likely not worth the grind necessary to get.  Obviously, NG+ removes the unlock requirement... but her SP costs are prohibitive until lategame anyway, so her worth only goes up so much.

Rin Kaenbyou: 3/10.  Optional PC, loses four points for her recruitment.  She's actually pretty good, with a very strong ST defense debuff, reasonably good MT damage and relatively high speed, plus Cat's Walk can be used for turn order manipulation.  However, recruiting her requires recruiting Yuyuko.  Thus, like Yuyuko, her worth goes up in NG+.  Her SP costs are fairly high for earlygame, but become viable by midgame; as such, she improves significantly in NG+.

Kaguya Houraisan: 4.5/10.  Optional PC, loses four points for her requirement - she requires Mokou, who sucks, and is also FAQ bait, requiring high battle counts on four PCs who are all fairly subpar.  If you do get her, she's a very good PC, in large part because almost all of her attacks are completely ITD (and high power for ITD to boot), plus she has ST targetable Quick.  She's held back by poor speed somewhat.  NG+ improves her strongly, but her SP costs are prohibitive until midgame.

The Aftergame PCs

Renko Usami: DNR.  Her usefulness is binary - if the enemies are vulnerable to debuffs or paralysis, she's amazing, and if they're not, she's utterly useless, because she does literally nothing else (including damage).  Her buff, while strong, has drawbacks that are largely worse than its benefits.  She's better in maingame via NG+ than she is in aftergame, for all that she's mostly only useful against bosses vulnerable to debuff.

Maribel Hearn: 6.5/10.  She's basically a better Reisen in all respects; if you fielded Reisen in your endgame party then Maribel makes a good replacement/upgrade for aftergame if you still want a similar PC.  In NG+, her SP costs make her prohibitive to use until near the normal endgame anyway.

Utsuho Reiuji: 0/10.  Probably gameworst PC, even if she weren't aftergame.  Kaguya does everything she does better and comes earlier.  Eternal benchwarmer.  Equally irrelevant in NG+.

Kanako Yasaka: 8/10.  She's basically a slightly better Alice, trading fire element for cold.  She's less SP efficient, but by this stage of the game, SP efficiency is largely irrelevant anymore.  If you're still using Alice, replacing her with Kanako is probably a good bet.  Considerably worse in NG+ due to severe SP economy issues until lategame, but she does become the best source of cold damage against Rinnosuke.

Yuuka Kazami: 6.5/10.  She's basically Marisa without most of Marisa's flaws.  Notably, she has very high durability for a damage dealer, and one of her nukes also weakly heals the party, giving her a little utility.  MT Master Spark is interesting but not that useful.  In NG+, she has major SP issues until the lategame.

Mystia Lorelei: 7/10.  Effectively replaces Cirno in the aftergame, doing basically all the same things but still having solid damage on the side.  She's not as much of a buzzsaw as Chen but she contributes more to the randoms before the big Flandre grind.  She shines in maingame from about the midgame on in NG+, and has some utility even in early game since her ST is cheap and strong.

Keine Kamishirasawa: 2.5/10.  She's an okay random sweeper, and you might have cared about this if she were recruited 50 hours earlier or so.  She would be a pretty great PC if she were an earlygame recruit, and the sequel - where she is - proves this.  Here, though, she's just not really worth using.  She's basically a notably worse Ran.  The fairly cheap MT gives her a little early midgame utility in NG+, but other characters can do that just fine too.

Eiki Shiki Yamaxanadu: 8/10.  She's basically a better Kaguya in general, but lacks the Quick.  She's also horribly SP inefficient for random sweeping, but again, this late in the aftergame you don't really care (by the point you get Eiki, Flandre is probably your only random sweeper).  SP issues make her essentially useless before endgame on NG+ (but she can function in pre-aftergame endgame).
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 08:38:51 PM by Reiska »

SnowFire

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2015, 07:10:54 AM »
Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky FC
Since I'm going through SC right now, which is nicely reminding me of various character's builds (they all start with the same abilities they ended FC with)...  my recollections of FC normal balance.  Note from messing around a bit with difficulty on SC, if it works a similar way in FC, upping the difficulty does -not- affect each character equally; most notably, physical builds get screwed over even harder.

Anyway, Trails is one of those games where magic > physicals usually, so by default the character balance is something like mages > balanced builds > fighters.  Crafts that aren't S-Crafts are more useful for utility than raw damage; healing, status attacks, MT damage, buffs, Impede/Cancel effects, etc.

Estelle: 7/10.  Balanced & flexible, can grab whatever spells you need thanks to no locked Orbment slots.  Also has the best single-target damage S-Break out there in the lategame in Barrage.  Hurricane has occasional use.  If for some mad reason you're making a heavy physical party, Morale (the group Str buff) would be pretty useful.

Joshua: 7/10.  Estelle but with slightly better stats but less flexibiilty.  Another balanced build.  Locked Time slots are fine, Action & Cast are both good.  Very late, gets Black Fang which is the 2nd best S-Break and really useful for clearing the entire screen full of trap monsters or whatever. 

Schera: 5/10.  Yet another balanced build, leaning toward mage, which is even better.  And has an Impede craft.  Still...  Sadist Whip is possibly the worst S-Break in the game, and she has locked Wind orbment slots.  Now, Aerial is quite good for random-clearing, but it's hard to get that many Wind slots in C1, and she's gone in C2, and it's not as impressive in the endgame.  And the actual stat bonuses from Wind are the worst: stuff like physical evasion.  I mean, she's fine, but she could be better.

Olivier: 6/10?  I'll freely admit this is a bit of a guess, his availability isn't great, the guys don't fight anyone interesting in the Grancel sewers, and I didn't take him to the Sealed Area.  Stat-wise off Dhyer's no-stat-boosts-from-orbments topic, he has the raw highest ATS in the game slightly edging Kloe, and both of them have the best Orbment shapes for learning lots of magic in a single, long line.  Unfortunately, his crafts aren't particularly inspiring, with Happy Trigger having some niche use for instant healing, and he has a locked Mirage Orbment.  Even a single slot is unfortunate because Mirage orbments suck.  Granted, this is not a *big* deal, and he's a powerful mage when magic is awesome, so I may be being unfair and he really does deserve the 7 here.

Kloe: 8/10.  Well she's basically tied with Olivier for best magic stat, except she has 3 locked Water Orbments, except that Water Orbments are actually *good*.  More importantly, her crafts are great; she's got Str/Def busting (if temporary), she's got Impede, and she has the most unique S-Break in Lichtkreis / Radiant Plash.  Everybody else has damage; only Kloe can save you from some kind of surprise disaster happening by healing the whole party up after some kind of MT doom attack -> whoa he's gonna get his turn again too soon.  The princess swordgirl schoolgirl being good, clearly CK was on the balancing team at Falcom.

Agate: 3/10.  Our first pure fighter.  Uh.  This is where I say that I did in fact use Agate in the Sealed Area: you kinda want 2 guys / 2 girls due to armor drops being gender-specific, and there *do* exist Arts-resistant enemies, notably one of the final boss parts.  And physicals are faster than magic!  Just ugh, the damage drop is too much, and it somehow gets worse vs. high-Def bosses.  If you really want a sometimes-fighter for the resistant, you're probably better off just throwing an Attack orbment at Estelle or Joshua.  Sigh.

Tita: 2/10.  The good: Smoke Canister.  This is probably the best normal Craft in the game.  MT Blind that always seems to hit completely screws over some randoms, and is still helpful against many other enemies, and it even has MT damage attached!   (Also Vital Cannon is useful in SC, but checking the notes, looks like it's comparatively nerfed in FC at 500 healing.  It's 1500 healing in SC.)  The bad: EVERYTHING ELSE.  She's a fighter who doesn't really deal damage, requires an accessory in the Long Barrel to get some range, and still isn't really "safe" at her comparatively short range considering her extreme frailty.  Obviously if she was much better or there was a good way to twink physical damage, the fact she has MT physical damage would completely obsolete Agate/Zane vs. random hordes, but there isn't.  Throw in locked Space orbments for fun and we have our cast-worst dueler.

Zane: 4/10.  The best pure fighter...  for whatever that's worth.  His self-buff Craft is weirdly good and he has cast-best HP.  On the downside, he's even worse than Agate if he's forced to do spell-spamming for some reason (positioning, it not being safe to move around?) with that cast-worst ATS.  And I certainly used Agate to sling the occasional spell (balance!).  His S-Craft is pretty cool too, like a chibi-Black Fang.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2015, 07:21:20 AM »
Oh hey something I've played.

I did use Olivier in the final dungeon (along with Kloe). I feel like you're underrating him a touch (I'd have kneejerked him slightly above Estelle/Joshua rather than slightly below, I don't remember locked Mirage hurting him that much), but it's not really a big deal, and I'm not confident enough in the game's balance to say he might not be worse.

Pretty much agree with everything else.

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2015, 07:37:38 AM »
So agree on how solid Olivier is (on normal).  Mirage slots are at worst able to be filled with utility stuff.  He is present early game which is probably where being a good mage vs balanced is biggest with lost EP reverb availability.  Also my memory of early game being a bit more where the game tries.  End game he is a pretty solid filler pick.
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Random Consonant

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2015, 03:54:27 AM »
Oh hey something I've played.

I did use Olivier in the final dungeon (along with Kloe). I feel like you're underrating him a touch (I'd have kneejerked him slightly above Estelle/Joshua rather than slightly below, I don't remember locked Mirage hurting him that much), but it's not really a big deal, and I'm not confident enough in the game's balance to say he might not be worse.

Pretty much agree with everything else.

Speaking as someone who just finished the game and did this yeah, it's just one slot locked to Mirage and at worst that just means hey free EP quartz which he comes back with by default or he holds Haze during the final dungeon or whatever.

SnowFire

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2015, 05:22:18 AM »
For whatever it's worth, had you asked me after I finished the game, I'd have kneejerked Olivier as like a 4/10 or something.  Dunno if I just didn't notice his good magic stat, but he didn't really impress.  After hearing the hype in chat & checking Dhyer's stat topic, he sounded more like a 7/10.  I figured I'd compromise and give 'em a 6 with a big question mark afterward.  But okay okay, he's good.

I do agree that Elf's final party sounds like the "best" one, since it's 1 male / 1 female with the 2 pure mages, and just throw a physical build Estelle's way.

Interestingly (to me), Olivier is somehow considerably better in SC, at least the early chapters.  Stat build at base is roughly the same, *except* you get Boots & Armor that are both male-only that pump Arte Strength by like +40 over base.  So you have Olivier having ~300 ATS while the rest of the party has ~230, and this is *quite* noticeable in the resulting magic damage to enemies.  We'll see if MVP Olivier keeps up or not.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 06:22:24 AM by SnowFire »

Reiska

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2015, 08:21:52 AM »
This Trails discussion will be most helpful when I get around to actually playing that game (good to know that magic rules the game, for instance!  I hadn't noticed in the little bit I'd played so much).

I've decided I'd like to look at Super Robot Wars J some more.  Now that I've almost completed two playthroughs, I've used most of the units at one point or another, so in this post rather than looking at the in-game usability of series as favorites picks, I'm now going to be rating the individual units.

I'll proceed in the same order, roughly, as I listed the series before.  When mechs have multiple potential pilots, I will comment on the differences and if any significantly alter ratings, but it's the mechs I'm rating overall, not the pilots.  Mid-season upgrades are generally rated with their initial mech unless one of the following applies: you have a choice of upgrades, or the original mech is retained after the upgrade.

Banpresto Originals

Bellzelute: 8/10.  It's more or less equivalent to the Freedom Gundam in both stats and overall power, though of course you have it 38 stages earlier.  The raw power is just slightly worse than Coustwell's, but it has a MAP attack.  It's dependent on Hit & Away, but both Toya and Calvina have the skill, so this isn't relevant.  Which of the two pilots is better for Bellzelute depends a lot on your play style; Calvina's defense deficit is not going to be relevant for Bellzelute most of the time, since it's a long-ranged mech, and the seishin difference (Toya has Assault, Calvina has Snipe) isn't too striking either; both are about equally useful.  Calvina's Leadership won't see much use, though, so I would lean towards Toya very slightly, since he can still get Snipe from Katia, and Bellzelute probably prefers Katia as the sub-pilot of choice for the extra evasion and range anyway, though Festenia is situationally useful because of her Strike seishin.  Melua doesn't really help the Bellzelute at all.

Coustwell: 8/10.  It's more or less a slightly better God Gundam, again much earlier.  It trades Bellzelute's range for slightly more raw power and a notably better armor stat, without sacrificing much in the way of mobility.  The finisher having a fixed 1 range is unfortunate, however.  Coustwell is probably best piloted by Calvina, in spite of her 15 point deficit in the Defense stat, because it can make excellent use of her Snipe seishin, wheras Toya's Assault seishin is completely useless in Coustwell as it does not have any attacks that aren't post-movement to begin with.  The rest of your team will like Calvina's Leadership bonuses, too.  All three sub-pilots have a niche in Coustwell, but I feel that Melua makes the best choice; the movement bonus is slightly better than Katia's range bonus (since the latter doesn't affect the finisher), and Melua's armor bonus gives it durability equivalent to Mazinger Z.  Festenia is useful for Strike, as always.

Granteed: 9/10.  It's more or less a slightly better Mazinger Z, though not earlier.  Granteed benefits a lot from Hit & Away also, and neither pilot will have it in this configuration, thus eating one of their module slots.  I lean towards Toya being slightly better for piloting Granteed in any event because of seishin and stat differences; his 15 defense advantage will matter here, and he has Accel rather than Calvina's Guard, and when he still wants Guard he can get it from Katia.  Outside of that, Melua is again probably the best sub-pilot to field in Granteed; both main pilots have Strike in this configuration, so Festenia's main use is instead providing self-healing.  A Melua sub-piloted Granteed is as tanky as Mazinkaiser (tankier, once Granteed Dracodeus enters play).

Vorlent: 9.5/10.  Having Orgone Cloud from the beginning of the game is just dumb.  Otherwise pretty much everything I said about Granteed still applies.  Granteed Dracodeus is probably better than Raftclans, but Vorlent is far and away the best of the four initials so whatever.  Raftclans might be the only one who prefers running Festenia, since its raw power is a bit low?  Might be better for Calvina than Toya, since Guard is abusable with an early damage shield and it doesn't need Accel as much.  Maybe.

Martian Successor Nadesico

Nadesico: 9.5/10.  It's force-deployed on every map in the game it's present, just about, and you won't ever really regret it; it's got five seishin pools full of good seishins, Distortion Field is one of the best barriers in the game, and its offense can even keep up with the regular mechs.  This isn't your grandpa's SRW battleship that you want to keep away from enemies out of fear of it being shot down; this thing should be right up in the enemies' faces with all your other units kicking ass with them.  Really the only bad thing I can say about the Nadesico is that if you somehow get it shot down, it's a gameover.  Ruri should always be used as the main pilot due to her IFS skill.

Aestivalises
I'm going to talk about these in general, before assigning a rating for each of the pilots of them, since they have some subtle differences.  The 0G frames should always be used on space stages.  Outside of that, the Ground frames are probably best if on a water-heavy stage; outside of that, Ground vs. Artillery is a toss-up.  I personally consider the Artillery Frame's lack of mobility and the pilots' lack of Hit & Away to be a severe liability, but Ground Frames have no meaningful offense against flying enemies and Air Frames have significantly worse offense against ground enemies, and this matters frequently.  The Lunar Frames alleviate some of these concerns, but I'm not sure they actually get the combination attacks, which is a significant drawback; even if they do, they would have severe EN management issues since they lack the Gravity Wave Antenna; however, they do improve the Aestivalis' individual performance somewhat.

With all that said, by pilot:
Akito Tenkawa: 5/10 individually, 8/10 with Gai.  Despite the pretty good seishin list, for most of the game, he's an Aestivalis without combos, and he may remain such if you don't take the routes to get Gai back.  He lacks Strike, so Real bosses will give him problems.
Nagare Akatsuki: 3/10.  A worse Akito in every way - worse availability, no combos at all, and he doesn't get Focus until level 33.  Flush.
Gai Daigoji: 7/10 individually, 9/10 with Akito.  Wall makes up for the lack of Focus and he has a better Prevail level, so he's basically Akito Plus, but he's missing for 3/4 of the game.  Honorable mention for the bug related to him on the first cycle: if you get him for the first time on the first cycle, he receives EXP credit for 8 route splits instead of the 4 he should, and the extra pilot points will persist through later cycles.
Ryoko Subaru: 5.5/10 individually, 7.5/10 with Izumi and Hikaru.  Slightly worse Akito by herself, though her Leadership skill will make other units happy, hence the higher score.  Strangely, although she has the highest melee stat of the three, she's the only one to not get level 3 Combo.  She lacks Strike too.
Izumi Maki: 6/10 individually, 8/10 with Ryoko and Hikaru.  She lacks Prevail, but she has Strike, which makes her the best at hitting Real bosses, and Guard + Distortion Field is still silly.
Hikaru Amano: 4.5/10 individually, 7.5/10 with Ryoko and Izumi.  Worst seishin pool of the trio.

X-Aestivalis: 5.5/10.  It's pretty bad, and its pilot will need a Hit & Away module.  It probably is technically an upgrade for a Gai-less Akito or for Akatsuki, though.

Mobile Suit Gundam SEED

Archangel: 6/10.  You can't not deploy it, and it's not a complete liability, but it might be the only unit in SRW history that I'm aware of to actually get steadily worse over the course of the game as the plot continues robbing it of its subpilots and giving nothing in return.  It has neither the raw power nor the durability of the Nadesico even before the Y-Unit comes into play; later in the game, as such, it's a little bit sad.  Murrue should remain the main pilot even when you have the choice.  The subpilot losses hit it pretty hard, taking with them Assault and Guard most notably.  (Tolle would get Enable at level 51, but the odds of him ever reaching that level are minuscule.)

Eternal: 8/10.  If you want a support unit for the endgame, it's hard to do better than the Eternal.  The important support seishins are there on Lacus, and it can both repair and resupply while having battleship stats.  Lacus is a better main pilot if you ever use the Eternal for attacking, but her 24 point deficit in Defense can't be ignored and is not made up for by SEED.

Skygraspers: 5/10.  Only really useful if you really, really like Mu La Flaga, and since you can't save him from his plot death in this game, there's little point.  If you're going to field a Skygrasper, the Sword pack is the most useful.  Don't bother with Aile or Launcher here, as you need the mobility of post-movement attacks if you're going to use a Skygrasper at all.  #1 resupplies and #2 repairs.  That's about it; I'm not going to rate the packs individually here since only one of them is really worth considering.

Moebius Zero: 2/10.  Might be marginally better than the Aile Strike.  You still don't want to ever use it, really, when you're not forced to.  Plot makes you lose it eventually IIRC.

Strike Gundam and Strike Rouge
These units are mostly identical, except that the Rouge has 50 more armor with the Aile pack, 100 more armor with the Sword pack and 150 more armor with the Launcher pack.  IWSP forms are identical.  I'm only giving ratings for the regular Strike; the Strike Rouge is probably half a point better with Sword or Launcher packs.  The base form of the Rouge has an extra attack which the Strike does not before stage 38, but it's still not worth using.

The Strike Rouge can be piloted by either Kira, Cagalli, or Mu.  The Strike is locked to Kira until after stage 38, after which it can likewise be used by any of the three.  After stage 38, Cagalli brings the Astray Formation attack to any mech she pilots; this attack itself may enhance some of the ratings, but I'm not going to consider it in the numerical ratings since the enhancement isn't uniform.  For packs other than Sword, it's a better post-movement attack, essentially.

Strike Gundam (no pack): 1/10.  Don't ever use this.  There's no good reason to.  The Strike Rouge is identical(ly bad).

Aile Strike Gundam: 2/10.  This is pretty much the second worst mech in the entire game.  Do yourself a favor and don't use it ever; if you need Kira to fly, stick a flight unit on the Sword Strike or Launcher Strike instead. 

Sword Strike Gundam: 4/10.  It's at least passable, though unable to hit flying enemies without a flight unit.  Melee is not Kira's good stat either. 

Launcher Strike Gundam: 5/10.  Probably the best pack to use on the Strike without the secret.  He'll need a Hit & Away module.

IWSP Strike Gundam: 7/10.  Actually a decent endgame unit, on par with the Freedom Gundam without the Meteor upgrade.

M1 Astray: 1/10.  This would be the worst mech.  It's Aile Strike with 100 less attack power.  *flush*

Freedom Gundam: 9/10.  This is where Kira starts getting good.  The Meteor upgrade in the late game makes it hilariously broken.  Combos with Athrun.

Justice Gundam: 8.5/10.  Just slightly worse than the Freedom at base; with the Meteor upgrade, it's identical(ly broken) to the Freedom.  Combos with Kira.

Buster Gundam: 6/10.  Basically a little bit better Launcher Strike, and Dearka has innate Hit & Away.

Duel Gundam: 3/10.  Basically a little bit better Sword Strike, but it also has two lifebars, which might come in handy if it had more than 2 stages of availability.  It comes so late that there's no reason to care if you don't really like Yzak for some reason.

Mobile Fighter G Gundam

Shining Gundam/God Gundam: 7/10.  Domon is pretty good even by himself, though he's fairly will-dependent - before 120 will, he's actually only barely better than Aile Strike >_>.  The midseason upgrade alleviates this, and all the Super Mode/Clarity attacks are very good, though.  He gets better still in the lategame when paired with Rain or Allenby or the entire Shuffle Alliance.  Only real weakness is his slow movement.

Gundam Maxter: 4.5/10.  The lack of movement is annoying.  Gets better when paired with Gundam Rose.

Gundam Rose: 6/10.  The Rose Bits MAP weapon is one of the best available in the early game, and can justify using him even if you ignore the rest of his cast.  Lack of movement is annoying and he wants a Hit & Away module.  Gets better when paired with Gundam Maxter.

Bolt Gundam: 4.5/10.  The lack of movement is annoying.  Gets better when paired with Dragon Gundam.

Dragon Gundam: 9/10.  Basically a flying Sword Strike Gundam, and decent enough on its own, if one-note.  Gets better when paired with Bolt Gundam.  EDIT: Holy crap, I did not realize until this playthrough how good his attack debuff is.  Score edited accordingly, it singlehandedly makes him one of the best units in the entire game since it is, as far as I know, entirely unique to him.  (It HALVES ENEMY BASE ATTACK.  As in, before subtractive defense.)

Rising Gundam: 5/10.  Basically Shining Gundam with a repair command.  Gets better when paired with Domon, of course.  Shouldn't bother without him.  Really late.

Nobel Gundam: 6.5/10.  Basically a better Dragon Gundam, and gets better when paired with Domon.  Really late though.

Brain Powerd

The Brain Powerd units are all substantially similar, with the chief differences being the pilots rather than the units themselves.  So they get rated as such.  All of them are, for example, better than any non-IWSP Strike Gundam

Yuu Isami: 8/10.  Cast-best; Nelly Brain is a strong unit even by itself, let alone in combination with Hime.  He gets Strike and Soul, too.  Combos with Hime, Jonathan, or Iiko.

Hime Utsumiya: 7/10.  Lags a little offensively by herself and the seishins aren't as good as Yuu's.  You'd be dumb to use Yuu and not use her, really.  Combos with Yuu.

Nanga Silverly: 7/10.  If you're specifically only going to use one Brain, this is probably the one to use; Eland Assault is good and Nanga has a great seishin list.  Combos with Lasse.

Lasse Lundberg: 7/10.  Basically a slightly worse Hime for part of the game, then he gets a stealth upgrade that makes him a slightly better Hime.  Combos with Nanga.

Nakki Guys: 7/10.  See Lasse, he's basically identical to Lasse post-stealth upgrade.  Combos with Kant.

Kant Kestner: 7/10.  Basically a slightly worse Yuu.  Combos with Nakki.

Higgins Saz: 7/10.  A marginally better Lasse.  Combos with Kanan.

Kanan Gimms: 6/10.  A moderately worse Nanga, and probably the worst of the cast by herself.  Combos with Higgins.

Jonathan Glenn: 5/10.  Endgame filler, but not terrible, at least. Combos with Yuu and Iiko.

Quincy Issa/Iiko Isami: 6/10.  Endgame filler with better seishins than Jonathan.  Combos with Yuu and Jonathan.

Blue Comet SPT Layzner

Layzner: 7.5/10.  The Layzner is fairly mediocre at first, roughly on par with a flight unit-equipped Launcher Strike Gundam.  It gets multiple mid-season upgrades, though, and the first comes as early as stage 22.  The first upgrade on its own already makes it on par with the base Freedom Gundam.  There is no reason to ever pick the Enhanced Layzner over the Layzner Mk2 if you take the route which allows you to pick the latter.  This rating does not include the Layzner Mk2, only the Enhanced Layzner; the Layzner Mk2 if earned is worth a full-point upgrade due to its higher power and transformation for additional movement.  With Eiji's Accel seishin, the Layzner Mk2 is the most mobile mech in the game.

Baybull: 5/10.  Basically an alternative to Skygrasper #1 that leaves the Sword pack available for Strike Rouge's use.  If you use both it and Buldy, you also get a very strong combination attack that becomes available with Eiji's first midseason upgrade, which is worth noting.  David is the superior pilot if you're using it to attack at all; if you're using it as a pure support unit, which one is better depends on what you want - David has Faith and Prevail while Simone has Enable and higher defense. 

Buldy: 5/10.  See Baybull.  Its pilot will want a Hit & Away module if they don't have the skill natively (the default pilot, Roanne, does).  Roanne is clearly the best pilot for it as such.

Greimkaiser: 2/10.  It's pretty much just a slightly stronger Baybull without the resupply function.  The only thing saving it from complete worthlessness is that if you get it on the first playthrough of the game, it comes with 5 upgrades in all stats and weapons for free (if achieved for the first time on later playthroughs, it doesn't get these because of a bug), and the fact that you get Gale with it, whom you could consider sticking in Baybull and using in the Layzner Formation combo attack.

Bloodykaiser: 4/10.  A slightly stronger Baybull that has  Repair instead of Resupply.  It has a worse score because of low availability, but Julia is basically a slightly better Simone.  It also does not have the bug Greimkaiser does re: free upgrades.

Full Metal Panic!

Tuatha de Danann: DNR, it's only usable in a few maps.

ARX-7 Arbalest: 8.5/10.  Lambda Driver is really, really good.  Probably wants a flight unit for maneuvering though.  He has a combo with Kurz and Mao, but he's also very good without utilizing it.

M9 Gernsback: 6/10.  There are some minor differences between Mao and Kurz, but none of them amount to a rating difference especially.

Bonta-kun: 2/10.  It's cute?  That's it though; the finisher clashes with Sosuke's stat profile.  It would be better if Mao could pilot it.

Super Electromagnetic Machine Voltes V

Voltes V: 7.5/10.  It's certainly not bad, what with 5 pilots of seishins (two of whom have Valor) and decent attacks, but it's a bit will-dependent and also a bit squishy for a super.  I'm not sure I'd bother using it if I wasn't using Combattler alongside it for the combination attack.

Mazinkaiser

Mazinger Z/Mazinkaiser/Mazinkaiser KS: 9.5/10.  The only drawback it has is lack of flight before the Kaiser Scrander upgrade.  In a run of the game where you don't get Great Zeorymer, this is the best mech you will get, period, and you have it from stage 15 on.  And it gets even better if you field Great Mazinger alongside it.  I *guess* it's a little weak when it's still Mazinger Z, but that period is so short that who cares?  The only reason not to use this at every opportunity is a challenge run.  Combos with Great Mazinger.

Great Mazinger: 9/10.  Mazinger Z with more power and flight, and it gets a midgame upgrade that makes it just slightly worse than Mazinkaiser KS.  Like Mazinkaiser, the only reason not to use this at every opportunity is a challenge run; it's that good.  HOWEVER, it may be worth considering using Boss as the pilot over Tetsuya, as his seishin selection isn't that great in comparison.  Combos with Mazinger and Mazinkaiser.

Aphrodite A/Venus A: 5/10.  I would generally say that Buldy or Skygrasper #2 or Blue Earth are all better repair units, but Sayaka has a better support seishin pool than the pilots of any of those units.  So if you're going for pure support, this is a credible option.  Sayaka is a better pure support pilot than Jun.

Million Alpha: 6.5/10.  Basically a better Blue Earth for the second half of the game until Eternal shows up.  Sayaka is probably still an overall better support pilot than Lori and Loru, if only because the really good support seishins are on Loru and you can't equip modules on her to lower their cost or boost her SP because she's a statless subpilot.

Boss Borot: 5.5/10.  A Blue Earth alternative.  It needs a flight unit and a mega booster to perform adequately, but the seishin pool is pretty good and it good offense relative to the other "support" mechs in the game.

Super Beast Machine God Dancougar

Dancougar/Final Dancougar: 7.5/10.  See Voltes.  It has three Valor pilots instead of two once it gets the midseason upgrade.  It can sometimes be worth decombining the Black Wing from Final Dancougar to give you an extra support unit which doesn't count against your deployment limits in the late game (and the Black Wing shares Dancougar's upgrades).

Black Wing: 6/10.  Pretty much a Boss Borot alternative with less gimmicky offense.  It has to switch forms to choose which of resupply or repair it has access to, and the land form (which has repair) needs a flight unit to hit flyers, but since it can just transform again, this is less of an issue.  Boss Borot's offense is stronger, but has more limitations.  Black Wing's biggest strength is that it doesn't count against your deployment unit limit, and Dancougar doesn't majorly suffer from being separated from it.

Space Knight Tekkaman Blade

Tekkaman Blade: 9/10.  He wants a Hit & Away module.  WIth that out of the way, he has an incredible seishin pool and incredible power for a real.  His only drawback really is how fragile he is if he DOES get hit, but he does have two health bars.  Bonus combination attack with Rapier if you unlock her.

Tekkaman Rapier: 7.5/10.  Basically Blade without most of his midseason upgrades.  But Blade is already good at base, and she has a great seishin pool too.  And she combos with him.  She's gotten extremely late, but if you're fielding Blade, bringing her alongside him isn't a bad choice.

Blue Earth: 7/10.  The best support unit in the game until at least Million Alpha, and arguably until Eternal.  If you want to deploy two supports, this should likely be one of them even at endgame.  The offense isn't awful in the early game but quickly falls off into irrelevance.

Sol Tekkamen: 3/10.  They're essentially similar, and share the same rating.  Both lack Strike, are extremely fragile, and the unit itself is crappy.  They at least have a combination attack, but Balzac is late and missable.

Super Electromagnetic Robot Combattler V

Combattler V: 7.5/10.  See Voltes; the two robots are nearly identical in overall function.  Combattler's seishins are slightly worse for offense though (its second Valor is placed poorly); Chizuru is a bit better support than Hiyoshi though, so it balances out.

Hades Project Zeorymer

Zeorymer: 8/10.  By itself, Zeorymer is merely good.  The seishin pool is good, though not excellent with only 2 pilots, and statistically it's quite similar to Combattler and Voltes, though it has a defensive edge over them thanks to a (conditional on Will) bunshin.

Great Zeorymer: DNR.  It's serious FAQ bait for one, as the most obscure secret in the game.  If you DO get it, it is the most powerful unit in the game, but getting it is onerous enough that if I did rank it the process would cost it several points. 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 09:10:09 PM by Reiska »

Reiska

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2015, 08:46:22 PM »
Here's in-game use for another Touhou RPG: The Genius of Sappheiros.  I'm basing this analysis on the final version of the game, the "Weekend" version, in "easy" mode (which is not actually easy, wholistically speaking).  I'm also mostly ignoring the final boss, because the final boss fight is all but a puzzle boss, fought with two parties, where nearly every PC's abilities are essential for victory.

Reimu Hakurei: 8/10.  In this game, she's a hybrid character, split between holy elemental magic damage and healing.  She can also do passable physical damage in randoms to conserve MP, although she should pretty much never be doing that against bosses.  Her healing is stronger than Sanae's on raw numbers, but also more expensive and less spammable due to cooldowns, and she tends to be less effective at MT healing in most formations.  She's essential for a number of boss fights throughout the game due to her various Circle abilities, which allow her to nullify her choice of status ailments, elemental damage (though it doesn't catch holy or dark elements), physical damage or magical damage.  Basically, the only parts of the game she lags noticeably in are the parts where holy resistance is out in force, and even then you might want her healing/defensive abilities.  As a bonus, many of her attack spells are ITE too.

Marisa Kirisame: 7/10.  She's actually good in this game!  She's always a magic nuker, but she can be built for either elemental or non-elemental damage.  Which one is more effective varies over the course of the game, but you can switch freely, but elemental tends to be better in most boss fights whereas nonelemental tends to be better in randoms.  She's fairly helpless against magic-resistant/immune enemies, of course, which is her main weakness.

Sanae Kochiya: 9/10.  Healer/buffer with a few mediocre damage skills she can throw around in randoms.  Her offense is decidedly inferior to Reimu's; most of the time she's better off buffing than attacking, even in randoms.  Buffs in this game are fantastic and Sanae is, for the most part, the only source of MT buffs (Byakuren has a single MT buff, but it isn't nearly as potent).  She's also the only source of reliable revival, the only source of reliable MT healing, and the best source of status removal (Reimu can do it, but has to deal with cooldowns while Sanae does not).  Basically, the only reason she's not a 10 is because her personal offense is legitimately bad.

Aya Shameimaru: 5/10.  She's a contender for game-worst PC.  Even so, she's essential to a few boss fights.  Aya's a hybrid between melee offense and defensive support, and her biggest problem is that almost all of the defensive support comes extremely late in the game; she doesn't get her most important buff until level 57, which she'll probably hit in the penultimate dungeon.  So she spends the majority of the game being just a pure melee damage dealer, and she's notably worse at it than Sakuya or Mokou or even Patchouli.  She tends to be better off being used as a party commander than an actual combatant, especially in mage-heavy teams.

Patchouli Knowledge: 7.5/10.  Pure offense PC; interestingly, she can be specced for either magical or physical offense.  Her magical offense is mostly MT, though her low speed hampers her somewhat at random sweeping.  She generally prefers the magical setup, but there are a few parts of the game where the physical setup can shine, and it means that magic-resistant enemies don't shut her down like they do Marisa.

Sakuya Izayoi: 9/10.  Bulky melee attacker that does ridiculous damage to everything.  Remember how good * Killer abilities were in FF9?  Yeah, that's Sakuya.  Learn the enemy types, equip the right weapon, and watch her do more damage than the rest of your party combined most of the time.  Her main weakness is her small MP pool.  Private Square can be used to really mess up enemy AI in some boss fights, too, although even at endgame it will burn off a huge chunk of her MP pool to use.

Nitori Kawashiro: 6/10.  Gimmicky offense PC.  She tends to have accuracy problems, and like Aya, often makes a better party commander than a combatant.  More than anyone else, Nitori really needs a party designed around her; she basically plays a lot like an Etrian Odyssey Landsknecht, in that her core offense is based around "chasing" attacks of a specific element.  If you can set your party up to spam that element, she can start putting out fairly impressive amounts of damage.  Most of the time, though, it's not worth the trouble unless you're fighting a boss weak to that element.

Alice Margatroid: 10/10.  The game's tank PC, in the literal sense.  Highest HP, highest defense, and generally plays like an Etrian Odyssey Protector.  Her skills in general vastly reduce the damage your entire party is taking, which is a big deal in a game where revival is nonexistent for over half the game and scarce for the rest.  She can do okay damage in a pinch if defense isn't necessary, too.  There really isn't a single point of the game I can think of where your party isn't made better by having her around unless you're grossly overleveled; you tend to feel this when the game forces you to use multiple parties, because there's only one of her. :V

Satori Komeiji: 4/10 if you don't FAQ blue magic.  Without her blue magic gimmick, she's basically a poor man's Etrian Odyssey Hexer; lots of MT debuffing and status with mediocre success rates, and not much else.  She needs the blue magic to output any real damage.  With the blue magic, she goes up to a 6 or a 7; it's great, but the really good spells tend to be obnoxious to get, which hurts her rating.  She's lousy as a commander PC too.

Youmu Konpaku: 8/10.  The second of the game's three melee offense PCs.  Youmu's skillset is obviously based on Etrian Odyssey's Ronin class, complete with the stances.  Because she has to take a turn to set up, she's somewhat lackluster against randoms compared to Sakuya, but her offense in boss fights is usually at least on par with, and often surpasses, Sakuya's.  She's not totally bad in randoms, since her basic physicals can carry a chance of ID in certain builds.

Byakuren Hijiri: 7/10.  Hybrid mage; she has both holy and dark element offense, with a side of ST buffing (stronger than Sanae's, but obviously not MT) and some gimmicky healing.  She also has some ST status.  She's overall a fairly good PC but doesn't really excel at anything; her offense, while passable for the most part, is generally worse than Patchy or Marisa, or even Reimu.  Largely, her niche is being the only source of cheap Dark element damage and the ST buffing, which is helpful when you're basically leaning on a single PC for offense (as is typical of many boss fights).

Fujiwara no Mokou: 7/10.  The third of the game's three melee offense PCs, and something of an Alice variant, in that she's the bulkiest of the three.  She lacks Alice's battlefield control and proactive tanking, instead bringing better offense to the table; in this game, that's generally a losing trade.  She definitely makes an acceptable substitute for Alice in multiple party situations, and her offense is pretty good when enemies are fire-weak.  She's also a great commander PC.  Her physicals tend to inflict disabling statuses, which is a nice niche; certainly, she can replace Alice when you're not actively in need of proactive defense, but this becomes less and less frequent the further you go in the game.

SnowFire

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2016, 06:53:29 PM »
This doesn't really count as obscura, but whatever.  Think enough people have finished it that it might be worth a go.

Fire Emblem Fates

I'm listing each character only once, but this isn't strictly accurate as some characters' relative worth fluctuates between routes due to competition / weapon availability, and Corrin & Gunter end up authentically different no matter what.  So feel free to give multiple scores, or average scores, or whatever strikes your fancy.  This is also stupidly long, so might be worth doing it in parts.

Corrin
Felicia
Jakob
Gunter
Azura
Silas
Kaze
Mozu
Shura
Izana


Rinkah
Sakura
Hana
Subaki
Orochi
Saizo
Hinoka
Azama
Setsuna
Hayato
Oboro
Hinata
Takumi
Kagero
Reina
Kaden
Ryoma
Scarlet
Yukimura


Elise
Arthur
Effie
Odin
Niles
Nyx
Camilla
Beruka
Selena
Laslow
Peri
Benny
Charlotte
Leo
Keaton
Xander
Flora


Fuga
Anna
Captured & recruited enemies (Niles / Orochi passive)


Kana
Shigure
Dwyer
Sophie
Midori


Shiro   
Kiragi
Asugi
Selkie
Hisame
Mitama
Caeldori
Rhajat


Siegbert
Forrest
Ignatius
Velouria
Percy
Ophelia
Soleil
Nina

SnowFire

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2016, 06:58:47 PM »
I'm assuming either Casual or a perfectionist Classic runthrough where deaths either don't happen or are rare.  So not much credit for "hey they're a backup if someone dies."


Corrin - 9/10.  Just awesome.  Hypothetically customizable, but keeping them in Nohr Prince(ess) & the upgrades is just *fine* too.  Mixed damage is always good; they're your best tank early thanks to Dragonstones being great, and transitions into being a great attacker - CQ + RV having access to the mighty Levin Sword, and BR having higher str for plain ol' physical beatdown and easier access to Dual Katanas.  Passive is really great, and several characters have passives that make Corrin pair-ups better anyway, so.  All this might still be an 8, but I'll lean towards a 9 due to Revelation, where Corrin gets to power-level on the first few maps due to tiny deploy counts and hard-carry the early game while also maxing out weapon levels for free.  If you care about fighting StreetPass / Internet people, then Corrin also has the easiest time farming weird skills from other people, too, saving the trouble of class-switching back and forth.  And while I don't *really* give credit for this, since Corrin is guaranteed to be in your party at all times, they're among the safest to give stat-boosters to - especially Boots, to help cover for H/N Noble's one weak stat.  Yeah, Corrin is the high 9 compared to some of the low 9s in this topic.

Felicia - 7/10.  Frailty is a problem, but is a solid Corrin support, a good staffbot, and a terror with a Flame Shuriken.  Gets a bit of a boost on RV for the same reason as Corrin, having like 3 maps to massively farm up levels & weapon ranks.  Having magic damage that is blue-typed and gets around Tomebreaker is also ocasionally helpful for WTA purposes, plus a lot of Fates actual-mages are slowpokes, and she's comparatively speedy resistance-hitting.  Can do a temporary switch to Strategist and get Inspiration way, way sooner than anyone else, which is also kinda handy.

Jakob - 6/10.  Passive is arguably a bit better than Felicia's, but…  the offense falls off harder in the 2nd half of the game, and he makes a slightly worse Strategist for the 2 levels he needs to spend there if you care.  He can take hits better, though, which is a non-trivial advantage.

Gunter - Uhhh DNR?  For required deploy maps, he's actually pretty solid, like 7/10 territory, good crutch and XP-leeching isn't a big deal in Fates.  For optional maps, which includes like all of Revelation, oh god no, 1/10.  Elf said he might be an okay Shelter bot with high move + promoted stats, but this implies you're in a really desperate situation.

Azura - 7/10.  Yon average FE dancer, except actually has passable offense & can pair-up.  Less dodgy than some other FE dancers, though.  I guess the passive can be helpful too.  Is probably 8/10 on Revelation thanks to early game grinding + Foreign Princess being useful vs. Vallite enemies.

Silas - 4/10.  A mobile tank, I guess?  Stats just aren't that amazing other than Def, though.  Using him does get Sophie though who is better, and he deserves some credit for setting that up.  Probably mildly better on BR where tanks are relatively rarer.

Kaze - 7/10.  Fast, damageless ninja who counters mages but has trash physical defense & luck.  Still pretty useful.  Somewhat more useful on CQ where both Locktouch is fairly rare (Kaze + Niles + maybe Shura, kids) and speedsters are rarer (more Niles!).

Mozu - 7/10.  Okay, Mozu does take some work to setup, but honestly not THAT much.  Reminds me of FE9/10 Nepheene if you keep her in Master of Arms, just good stats across the board, for all that she probably wants an Arms Scroll.  Caps are annoying low, especially the B-rank Spears cap, but so it goes.  Sniper Mozu is also apparently very handy in CQ, but haven't tried that myself yet. 

Shura - 4/10.  Filler staff-bot.  Basically no point in using him in BR where he's surely outclassed and joins late, but has some merit in CQ (e.g. useful for the cave ninjas in Mokushou) where his level edge is handier.
 
Izana - 3/10?  Filler staff-bot which has a counterproductive passive.  Maybe more useful in BR if you hate Hayato / Orochi / Saizo / Felicia and went for Priestess Sakura, in which case you're likely desperate for some sort of magic damage, which is not entirely crazy but still niche.

--

Rinkah - 5/10.  One of BR's rare physical tanks, with the downside of cripplingly horrible HP & Res, so she can't be used if there's any sort of mixed damage threat.  She'd probably still only be a 4/10, but she's also one of BR's only two natural Axe/Club wielders (w/ Scarlet), so you're mildly incentivized to use at least one of them (especially if you go shop for some Axes to go with your Dual Club) for WTA coverage.

Sakura - 7/10 (6/10 BR, 8/10 RV?).  BR characters are so squishy that I found Sakura's passive (along with Jakob/Felicia's Gentelhomme / Demoiselle) actually pretty helpful in staving off OHKOs from enemy phase action in the first half of the game.  She's a handy Onmyoji if you didn't build up a Hayato / Rhajat, or you just want two later.  Revelation sees a major upgrade as Shining Bow makes Priestess Sakura one of the best magical threats in the game, and regen + dodginess + speed makes her actually better than, say, Leo at surviving.

Hana - 5/10.  Cool build, but ludicrously squishy, especially on enemy phase when her evasion boost on attacking doesn't apply.  Risks OHKOs left & right.  Definitely has use, but not the safest pick out there; Kaze gives up killing power to be considerably safer & dodgier, for example.  Probably even more aggravating on Classic.

Subaki - 4/10.  Genuinely useful early, where he generally won't be doubled and has +5 Speed on attacks, and is also tanky, and also hits everything while Perfectionist is up, even with WTD.  Just…  does not scale into the 2nd half of the game, where he's hard out-offensed by Hinoka, and Scarlet makes a better mobile tank.

Orochi - 4/10.  All the magic, none of the speed, and kinda squishy even if she isn't doubled.  Yet another "use with extreme care" unit, but she is a solid nuke if you can keep her safe, and can be a staff-bot if it isn't safe.  Desperately needs a Horse Spirit, of course.

Saizo - 7/10.  The magic / skill / defense / luck ninja.  Mixed damage is cool, but doesn't double everything quite as reliably as Kaze does.  Another solid Flame Shuriken user too which is part of why you don't need Orochi/Hayato quite as desperately as you might think.

Hinoka - 8/10.  Her stats are just really good, barring some frailty.  She's definitely eaten surprise OHKOs from Berserkers with axes which is annoying, but great otherwise.

Azama - 7/10.  BR's resident surprise tank.  Even regens, too.  Send Azama forth into the enemies with a Bolt Naginata and watch as they mostly bounce off him while he deals okay damage back.  Not as amazing in RV, though, where he joins quite late and is competing with better tanks.

Setsuna - 3/10.  Outclassed by Takumi in nearly everything…  except Speed, which is the godstat.  Usable enough I guess, but definitely requires forging an Iron Yumi +2/3 or the like to get killing potential, and probably questionable compared to Sniper Mozu as well.  Is complete garbage in RV (2/10?) where she starts underlevel, and if you're willing to catch her up, faces much stiffer competition for slots.

Hayato - 5/10.  Takes a little work to catch up, but early BR is pretty nice about this, so not a big deal.  Pretty vanilla stat build, if frail, like half the BR cast. He works, although should probably be replaced by Rhajat when the time comes.

Oboro - 6/10.  Another BR character who can take a hit, especially if you throw a Guard Naginata at her.  Boring stat build but it works.  Seal Speed & Lancefaire are pretty cool at least.

Hinata - 3/10.  See Oboro if she can't take a hit.  Desperately needs a Practice Katana, but I guess they are available.  Mildly better at taking hits than Hana but not by enough, he gets 2HKO'd rather than 1HKO'd, oh boy.

Takumi - 7/10.  Sadly enough, jerkface is pretty good, sporting lots of damage and a high crit rate and a cool side-benefit in ignoring terrain movement cost.  Arguably gets even better in RV where he joins earlier and has access to 1-range bows.

Kagero - 6/10.  The strength ninja.  Like Kaze, a bit of a mage-killer, but with less speed.  Probably my least favorite of the 3, but really, she's fine. 

Reina - 4/10.  BR's Gunter?  If I must deploy a Corrinsexual, I'll take Scarlet, thx.  Objectively okay but doesn't really scale and is frailer than I'd like for such a character, and not really a fan of Kinshi Knight (despite the AWESOME ANIMATIONS).  I think I did deploy her in the occasional map on Rev at least, e.g. Camilla's ship attack map.  I may be biased due to NPC Reina getting herself killed and forcing a reset the first time I did that map, and that's when she has the huge level edge which doesn't last.

Kaden - 7/10.  Pretty solid!  More of a dodge-tank than a tank-tank, but dang if that dodging isn't really good.  Selkie's also pretty solid.

Ryoma - 9/10.  Famously Ryoma can solo a lot of BR maps if you really want him too.  He's a bit more mortal in RV which does things like throw high-level Generals with spears at him, but he's still pretty busted. 

Scarlet - 7/10 ?  Hard to rank, since Scarlet is a Corrinsexual and thus bad to deploy if you care about building up your support conversation library.  But…  can hard-carry early in BR, and is *just fine* even if you haven't built her up later.  Like Rinkah, a rare authentic BR tank, and also pretty handy on Leo's map (Nohrian + flys in a swamp).  And is actually pretty good for the one map she's force-deployed in on RV. 

Yukimura - 7/10??  Extremely hard to rank, because even if all his stats were 1, "give up a deploy slot for +5 Hit" is not a bad trade to make.  And it's not like he's bad or anything, another ninja variant with his own weird tricks, except he's a Corrinsexual so hence not really getting much use from me due to no supports.  Dunno.

--

Elise - 7/10.  Staffbot early, is actually pretty good at killing stuff late with the problem of also being very killable by physical damage.  Solid.  Joins annoyingly underlevel in RV but pays off if you catch her up at least.

Arthur - 2/10.  The good: not a complete liability when he's forced + summons Percy.  The bad: Every other axe-girl he's competing with in CQ is better at it.  Throw in "is underleveled in RV" for bonus fail.  Depressingly enough, building up Villager Mozu is arguably better than him *even if* you don't plan to use her long-term, at least if you don't care about Percy.

Effie - 6/10.  Tank!  Who kills stuff!  And gets rolled horribly by mages!  Enemy offense is legit enough that a really good tank definitely pays off, so solid.

Odin - 3/10.  He's, uh, usable enough, and having a bit of a tank build makes him okay with Nosferatu (if he isn't getting doubled).  Just…  pretty dire magic score for a mage means he's worse at killing stuff than every other mage.  You can make him a Levin Sword Samurai for Awakening flashback giggles, but that's a lot of cash.  Easier just to bench him when his boss Leo shows up, and give a Flame Shuriken to Felicia or Jakob if you need mixed damage.

Niles - 7/10.  See Kaze, you need some Locktouch speedsters in CQ, and your options are limited.  For that matter, your bow options are limited too.  He's a bit of a money grubber (really, really wants an Iron Bow +3 or the likes) due to his damage being pretty suspect, but he's kinda needed.  Dives to like 4/10 in RV, where he joins later, underlevel, and has to compete with ninjas & snipers.

Nyx - 2/10.  Oh Tharja, what have they done to your build.  Nyx's stats are just too trashy.  Poor skill and poor defense means that you're rolling the dice where a miss has unfortunate consequences, and her durability is so horrible that there's not much point in Nosferatu.  At least Orochi can hit stuff reliably & hard and staffbot.

Camilla - 9/10.  Camilla Emblem indeed.  Joins on one of the toughest maps in the game where she is crazy crucial, can hard-carry some of the midgame, and is perfectly respectable lategame with Hinoka-esque "these stats are just better" for a Malig Knight.  Makes a really solid Bolt Axe user for mixed damage, too.  Joins at a reasonable time in RV as well.

Beruka - 5/10.  Flat worse than her boss, Beruka is still usable enough as flyer #2.  She's a bit of a tank, and going Wyvern Knight gets Rally Defense which is actually pretty darn handy.  Strength & Speed are not the greatest weaknesses to pick, but forging a good axe helps here.

Selena - 6/10. Yon vanilla average infantry, with slightly suspect Str & Lck, but good Speed.  And hey speed is the godstat.  So pretty handy!  Gets Axes or Bows if you don't give her the Dual Katana for some coverage, although Merc skills are largely trashy until Axebreaker.

Laslow - 2/10. Yon vanilla average infantry, with slightly suspect Def & Res, but good Strength.  Oh, and wait…  bad Speed.  Bad speed?!  At least Beruka has good mobility to offset the bad speed.  Ends up a worse Hinata.  Similar to Hinata, if you use him anyway, he direly needs the Practice Katana.  I'll err 1 point worse than Hinata since he also joins hilariously late & underlevel in RV vs. Hinata.  I *guess* Laslow also makes one of the hypothetically best Rallybots thanks to Fancy Footwork, but setting this up comes insanely late and requires DLC and/or careful relationship management.  And isn't even THAT much better than someone else being a Rallybot.  No.

Peri - 5/10.  Silas with worse def & skill, but better Res & Speed.  This is mostly a winning trade.

Benny - 5/10.  Effie with less killing power, but somehow even more defense.  This can actually be relevant for the likes of C25 where poison strike effects reduce you to 1 HP and you need to entirely null attacks.  Bit of a slow start though, harder to feed him XP than Effie.

Charlotte - 6/10?  Super-offense, if it hits.  I hate the character so haven't really used her, but seems solid.

Leo - 7/10.  Probably the weakest combat royal!  His speed could be better as getting doubled can be horrible, but whatever, he's great.  Like the other bro royals, using him saves money, too, which makes all your non-royal units better.  His CQ mage competition being a bit suspect helps too; Felicia is probably the best competition, and sometimes you need her healing.

Keaton - 6/10.  Can be a tank with suspect speed or be merely durable infantry with okay speed.  Also another money-saving unit.  Solid, might even be underrating him a tad.

Xander - 9/10.  Okay, take Effie / Bennie, except give them great mobility and a 1-2 range sword and better speed (but no Wary Fighter).  Awesome.  Fears fast mages, but pretty invaluable for single-handedly holding chokes or leading all-physical enemy packs on a wild goose chase.

Flora - 2/10.   Hahaha no.  Worse than both Felicia & Jakob at everything relevant, Shura & Izana are both better staffbots.  Only vaguely useful if you're on Classic *and* accepting deaths.  Only has 2 supports for bonus fail.

--

Fuga - 3/10?  Didn't use.  His bases look *okay*, but his growths are Gunter-level atrocious, and he's only on the path with the best possible competition.  And limited support options.  I'll take "overlevel but doesn't scale" over "underlevel and doesn't impress even when caught up" though.

Anna - 6/10?  Maybe 5/10 on BR/RV, though.  Anna seems a legit alternative to Niles if you want magic bows and aren't interested in Nina (and don't mind dodging Ciato's wrath).  Unfortunately, she isn't as solid a speedster as Niles even if she does more damage, and Shining Bow nukes her evade, too.  Her passive is trash, it gives you money straight-up and not gold bars, and not very much money.  She's still usable with some class-changing on BR, where she can go use a Bolt Naginata, but then we're talking weapon rank catch-up and spending an Arms Scroll, which is a bit of effort.  RV, she can take the Shining Bow, but so can Sakura / (Mitama?), who is better at it while sporting supports & a useful passive. 

Captured & recruited enemies (Niles / Orochi passive) - 1/10.  Hahaha no.  Most of their skill loadouts suck + no supports.  Allegedly there's an excellent Rallybot in CQ Lunatic C23 with all the Rallies, but I haven't seen him.  Additionally cool enemy-only skills get removed on capture (e.g. Staff Savant) so.

--

Kana - 6?? / 10.  Depends entirely on Corrin's build.  If Corrin is +Str, -Mag, then Kana is pretty rockin'!  But lots of other combinations lead to suboptimal Kanas, e.g. -Skl Corrin means *skill twinked Kana*, aw yeah, give him/her a Killing Edge and let the passive go to waste.  Could be anywhere from a 5/10 to a 7/10.
Shigure - 6/10.  Perfectly respectable Sky Knight.  Slightly better on CQ because Rally Speed is hard to get there.
Dwyer - 5/10 with a magically-inclined mom, go be a strategist in the backlines, sure.  3/10 otherwise as then you have someone who doesn't really do damage ever.
Sophie - 7/10.  Weirdly awesome.  Basically better than Silas in every way except maybe defense, but most notably her speed is okay, so she can double stuff.
Midori - ?.  Seems good if you can twink her passive.  For me, she came out weirdly slow despite having two speedster parents and unimpressive and wasn't really compelling.


Shiro ?  Didn't look impressive.   
Kiragi ?  Looked even less impressive, no super-bow like dad.
Asugi - 6/10.  Passable, ended up even more magic-ninjay than his dad, although that was partially due to having Orochi as mom (higher Mag score than Str score!).
Selkie - 7/10.  See Kaden, with slightly better non-Str, but notably worse Str.  About an even trade.
Hisame - ?  Haven't got.
Mitama - 7/10.  Unlike Sakura, actually has the Strength score to hurt people with bows.  I had Setsuna as mom, so she could even go grab Bowfaire in Sniper before going back to Priestess.
Caeldori - 5/10.  A huge disappointment compared to Awakening.  Hinoka with worse stats across the board.  This is still usable, actually, but still.
Rhajat - 7/10.  Hayato+.  Possibly best straight-up mage in BR?  At least competes with Sakura for the title.


Siegbert ?  Haven't got.
Forrest 5/10.  Usable, but frailer than dad, and not as fast as his aunt, so worse at killing stuff.  Still, Strategist for the backlines is respectable anyway, like Dwyer.
Ignatius ?  Haven't got.
Velouria ?  Haven't got.
Percy ? His passive is pretty awesome given Fates loves having single-digit crit rates creeping everywhere, at least, but haven't used despite getting him.  Child labor laws & all.
Ophelia - 4/10? Desparately needs a mage mom (Elise/Nyx/Orochi), but okay if you do…?  Orochi with slightly worse magic but slightly better speed is a good trade.  Still has some Nyx-esque fraility problems.
Soleil ?  Haven't got.
Nina - 6/10.   See Ophelia, but has better utility and magic resistance?  I had Elise as mom so she was quite frail, but murdered the hell out of stuff with a Shining Bow.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2016, 09:19:28 PM »
I'm ignoring DLC, aftergame, grinding, path bonuses, etc. Also, all scores are for Conquest/Birthright, though I'll note units who do notably better on Revelation (Shura and Hayato, mainly). Several characters do notably worse on Revelation and I largely won't be mentioning them.

Fates balance is pretty good by FE standards, at least on the lower end; no units are truly terrible the way the likes of Sophia or Astrid10 were. Less so on the high end where yeah a few top-tier units do kinda run away with things. One on each route in particular...


Corrin: 8.5/10. Certainly very good. Extremely versatile both by the standards of conservative builds (can tank with dragonstones or go offensive with swords, gets 1-2 range magic on CQ or staves on BR) or aggressie ones (can get any class/skill combination you like). She'll be excellent in her boon stat though other stats will only be okay, so you'll notice that e.g. non-speed boon Corrin isn't as fast as you'd like, and non-str/mag boon Corrins won't have super-awesome raw offence. But the stats are still overall good and the versatility rules. The only thing which places other units above her is that they have stronger starts and/or unique perks (read: Raijinto).

Felicia: 7/10. Earlygame staff user who can take hits, and gets super-early access to L15 skills like Inspiration. Her long-term stats don't really impress me much (too fragile and kinda lacking in power for Flame Shuriken hype to really hold) but really good early to mid.

Jakob: 7.5/10. See Felicia, takes hits better and thus has slightly better combat during the point in their combat is meaningful. He also has better reclass options, for all that honestly I wouldn't reclass either to a non-staff user making it moot.

Gunter: 4/10. Gunter has a really good pairup bonus for Corrin (one of the few ways to boost Hit that much, useful if you go Skill-bane), and an excellent skill monkey with Shelter and access to several great classes along with nearly Jakob/Felicia-like access to L15 skills. He's either pairup or utility though, since his growths are so bad that his combat quickly drops from passable to terrible.

Azura: 8/10. Compared to some dancers that durability does hold her back, although Inspiring Song (+3 speed to a dance target) helps make up for it. A great unit though not the best.

Silas: 6/10. Nice bulk and solid power, especially if you can get some milage out of his passive (+3 str/def/res when Corrin is below half HP, wherever Corrin may be). I rarely find him anything invaluable but he's a solid earlygame contributor.

Kaze: 6/10. Amazing speed is nice although the low str/def do hurt his combat quite a bit. He has locktouch utility though less than Niles I find because the latter has Move+1. Reasonably solid.

Mozu: 3.5/10? I'm not sure how I feel about Mozu (currently using her on my Conquest replay so I'll get back to you). She's a growth character, less extreme than Donnel, but at base those aren't too great in my eyes. The villager line just underwhelms in terms of classes, archer is interesting but archers are also inherently not wonderful either and anyway she's pretty much just "Setsuna who needs a Heart Seal in exchange for slightly better overall stats" at that point which isn't too great?

Shura: 5/10. Filler utility character, like FE13 Anna without Levin Sword awesome and joining later... so much worse than Anna of course. He's fine though. Significantly better in Revelation where he's much more like FE13 Anna, being one of your very best combat units upon join.

Izana: 3.5/10. Filler staff user with a bad passive, doesn't have Shura's locktouch or combat. I've gotten something out of him, but he's not great.


Rinkah: 4/10. Axes don't really have a unique spot on the weapon triangle since bows exist, and you don't really get any good unique clubs/axes until Scarlet joins anyway. She's serviceable as an earlygame tank and gives good pairup bonuses (str/def are weirdly hard to come by in Birthright), so she's not terrible despite her memetically bad HP/Str. But not very good either.

Sakura: 5.5/10. Filler staff user/DV user with a nice passive. Combat's a bit better in Revelation at least.

Hana: 5.5/10. Weird PC. Essentially an archer since she's all about murdering things dead then being walled in. Still, very few murder things harder than her, and Duelist's Blow goes a long way to letting her avoid counters, along with the Dual Katana option. I'd like her better if her start were a bit stronger.

Subaki: 5/10. Great at base with solid player-phase AS, solid durability, and flight. Falls off hard since his offensive growths are just putrid, and you get better mobile tanks. But there's really only so bad an earlygame flier can be, especially since a few early BR maps really, really reward flight.

Orochi: 3/10. Oh look a unit who is fragile but has good player phase offence... except not that good because of her speed. BR is already awash with units who have her build only better (Hana, archers).

Saizo: 6.5/10. Solid overall stat build. Not the best at doubling but can do it often enough, can hit Res, Str/Def are adequate. And ninja's just a good class to go with that decent if unexceptional stat build. On reflection I do think I like him better than Kaze gameplay-wise, much as I like Kaze better otherwise.

Hinoka: 8.5/10. If you want, Hinoka is one quick reclass away from secretly being one of the very, very best tanks in Birthright, with skyhigh Res, Guard Naginata access, adequate HP/Def. Oh, and decent str/great speed, too! Or you can keep her as a flier who won't be quite as tanky or hit quite as hard, but still possessess great overall stats, a great passive, is one of the best users of the Bolt Naginata, etc. It's just hard to go wrong with her.

Azama: 6.5/10. Weird unit. Doesn't have Sakura's useful passive, but does tank very well... once you promote him. Probably one of the best candidates for early promotion in Fates, although this will limit his longterm potential some.

Setsuna: 5/10. Similar to Hana, power unit who starts a little weak and needs to be walled in a lot. I think Snowfire is underrating her power some; high yumi mt and Quick Draw make up for her on-paper so-so Strength; even on Rev (where she's worse) she could almost one-round enemies at base on her join map. I think Hana's somewhat better because she sometimes can counter one hit, though.

Hayato: 3.5/10. Project mage. Terrible at base but ends up okay. Obviously this isn't really worth it to me, but hey, he's a better investment than Orochi if you insist on using a mage. Much better in Revelation where his start is fine.

Oboro: 6/10. Oboro is pretty much Hinoka with a worse passive and no DV, locked into the Spear Fighter path, with generally slightly worse stats (mostly Res). This is still decent enough, she's an extremely effective low-investment tank with the Guard Naginata and if you use Sky Knight Hinoka, Oboro will likely be the clear best at this role until Scarlet joins, with only Silas really able to compete.

Hinata: 2.5/10. His overall stats aren't terrible but for the life of me I can't figure out what he's trying to do. As a samurai he has poor offence and I don't see average-to-above bulk making up for that. Or, you can reclass him to be tanky but really slow, but with E rank lances, so he's a long way from picking up a Guard Naginata and doing what the likes of Oboro can do at base.

Takumi: 6.5/10. Another "point him at things to make them die on the player phase, then wall him in" unit. He can take hits slightly better than Setsuna/Mozu but this is largely irrelevant. He can gain melee counters (along with mobility) with Kinshi Knight but they aren't very good. Still, the main thing which keeps him a bit above Hana/Setsuna to me is, despite the fact that his speed and hence offence is a bit weaker, he's better out of the gate, and also has pretty strong dual strikes.

Kagero: 6.5/10. Ninja with rather devastating offence; honestly it's pretty close to Setsuna's or Hana's, but 1-2 range. So better than them. Better overall than Kaze since Str over Res is a winning trade (Kagero's still fine at fighting mages), her vs. Saizo is a matter of a taste (offence vs. durability). I'd say her passive sucks, but... so do the other ninjas'.

Reina: 8/10. Yeah I dunno where Snowfire is coming from on this one, Reina is ridiculously good out of the gate and never gets bad; nothing like Gunter. Horribly outclasses the other archers until they promote, has high str/spd forever. Her long-term potential is that of a glass cannon, but for much of the earlygame her durability is decent to good and she flies so she's just all-around great. She also has the earliest access to Replicate due to her fast level gain, if you're willing to give up flight for four levels.

Kaden: 4/10. He's (dodge-)tanky but has a crappy class (5-6 move, lack of 1-2 range) and poor offence. I have... little to say about him.

Ryoma: 9/10. Ryoma is a killing machine. His durability is "only" about as good as Kaden's (worse against magic), which is to say tanky via avoid but you need to be a little careful. But his offence is so stupid. Fast enough to double most, good power, and best of all it's 1-2 range. Doubling and counering all the time makes him gain dual guard really fast so yeah he can usually take a decent-sized group of enemies down. Point him at trouble spots, he deals with them. Oh yeah and he's overlevelled to start. I guess he could be more mobile?

Scarlet: 8/10. Flies. Joins at a high level. Fills niches that Birthright enjoys being filled (axe user, concrete durability, str/def pairup bonuses). She has weaknesses like speed/res that could really be better but she's very solid.

Yukimura: 5/10. He's... a lot like Saizo honestly, with better Res and worse Speed (but not far apart in either case). Also a bow rank in case you need some fliers killed. And an actually GOOD passive, unlike all the ninjas! But he doesn't have locktouch utility and joins when you already have lots of good units (Ryoma, Scarlet, potentially some kids) so he's probably less useful than any of the ninjas overall.


Elise: 7/10. 7 move healer. Good passive. Can kill things after promotion, if fragile then. Jakob/Felicia are a lot better early, though, so it's hard for me to get super-hyped for her even if she's adorable.

Arthur: 4/10. There's worse. With bronze and/or Percy to fix up his luck problem, he's actually quite tanky... but not the best, and badly needing those is limiting. His offence is... okay, good power but not so good speed.

Effie: 6/10. Effie's not too different from Arthur offensively (a bit slower, but better power for most of the game) but way better on durability; doesn't have the luck problem and is significantly tankier at base. Very solid for a while early as she can often snag OHKOs, but this gets harder as the game goes along, and better tanks show up too.

Odin: 3.5/10. Odin's a bit better than I used to give him credit for. Forget about trying to use him for raw offence and run screaming from suggestions of turning him into a Samurai; Nosferatu is his trick. With a pairup support and his decent mixed durability and accuracy he can often tank his way through a few enemies somewhat, weakening them a little for other units to kill. Much less directly useful as a tank than Effie, though, and significantly worse offensively.

Niles: 7/10. Only natural bow-user on Conquest for a long time, fast + good source of more speed. He's mostly about gobs of utility: Locktouch, mobility, pairup bonuses, maybe even some staff use later. But his combat is adequate too.

Nyx: 3/10. Pretty good offensively, but the hit is low enough that there are limits to how much I can hype this. She's like Hana/Setsuna but not as good at their game.

Camilla: 9.5/10. She has so many things going for her. Stupidly high stats at join. Possibly the best growths in the game. Emphasises the most important stats (str, spd, def). Gains levels with a +5 advantage, giving her quick access to Trample, Axefaire, -breaker skills, etc. Lots of fast supports. Can do 1-2 range well against either defence. Great passive which makes her the single best dual striker in the game. Crazy good for her first five maps and then settles in to merely have game-best offence and good durability. The only knocks on her are her arrow weakness and poor speed cap which she rams, and if that really bothers you, she's a quick A+ support with her retainers away from Hero/Berserker instead.

Beruka: 6/10. Since I didn't get a chance to fit it in above, the Wyvern line is really good! Flight is good, literally all six skills are useful (special shout-out for the tactical possibilities of Lunge and how early you get it). So innate access to that + an axe rank ensures a decent unit. Beruka's also a good tank and has good base str, though the str/spd growths let her down.

Selena: 5/10. Speed's a nice stat, but she's in a weak class; there's just not much place for a mono sword-user in Conquest (only one Kodachi and she has to wait 3 maps to even get that). She's passable enough.

Laslow: 2.5/10. "Above average strength" as your best stat isn't cutting it in general, let alone in Conquest where you have a number of strength titans with better stats than Laslow in other areas. And again, merc not great.

Peri: 6/10. Selena with a bit less speed but significantly more Str/Res, and a much better class (horse, second weapon, elbow room/shelter). Neither her offence nor her durability is perfect, but both are solid enough; she's a good all-rounder in that cavalier way, and her personal skill is neat (especially with Azura handy).

Benny: 4/10? I'm really not sure, I'll get back to you. Project character with ultimately game-best durability, but the speed is really problematic until he gets Wary Fighter (mages wreck him) and he's just not too hot offensively.

Charlotte: 4.5/10? Project character with ultimately game-best offence? (Although she doesn't catch Camilla until 20/15.) It's funny how she's the mirror of Benny in that regard, the game did know what it was doing with these project PCs at least. She joins lower-levelled than Benny but has an easier time catching up anyway. Half-point bonus over Benny because she has really awesome pairup bonuses (especially for Xander) so you might want to use her even if you don't plan to make use of her combat.

Leo: 7/10. There are a lot of ways to play him and most of them are good. He can go Sorcerer for Nosferatu shenanigans, or stick in Dark Knight with its decent enough durability (often survives two hits!) or he can go Strategist for more speed, staves, and Inspiration access but at the cost of becoming more fragile. Certainly the best dedicated mage in Fates, but the speed/durability are low enough to keep him in check. Also he's just about the only royal with a shit personal skill, damage bonus against injured enemies oh man.

Keaton: 5/10. Mm. Better than Kaden since he can output more damage, but has some of the same problems. Tank but lack of 1-2 range allows him to be exploited by some enemies, and there's just not much he brings to the table utility-wise.

Xander: 8.5/10. I don't think he's as good as Camilla or Ryoma but he's certainly outstanding. A great tank who has 1-2 range, so he'll punish anything that tries to hurt him allowing other units to mop up easily. If you push his speed he can even snag some ORKOs which is obviously great, or you can push his res/durability in general to make him a better overall tank. Also he's mobile and joins strong out of the gate. Low res is enough of a hole in his gameplan to be noteworthy but he's still excellent.

Flora: 2/10. No thanks, second servant/Shura/Izana all join around the same time or slightly earlier and can play your role while not being as fragile. Possibly Dwyer/Forrest as well. She has a staff rank over most of them but I have a hard time hyping this since it really only matters if Elise and the first servant are both dead or weren't used.


Fuga: 6/10. Pretty capable combat unit with decent weapon ranks, in fact his combat will probably surpass all but a few people on your team. He reminds me of the physical version of Caill9 or something.

Anna: Abstain, not used.

Captured & recruited enemies (Niles / Orochi passive): Ehhh, Haitaka (Conquest 9 boss) is supposed to be useful if you stall until you are able to recruit him, but meh.


No rankings on the kids, I'd need to look at them more closely. Gut feelings instead!

Kana: Mine has always kinda underwhelmed, I dunno. Corrin without a lot of the things which make Corrin cool.
Shigure: Minus points for it being annoying to build supports for dancers as per Inigo. When I did get him his stat build seemed rather bland. Snowfire raises a good point that Rally Speed is nice on Conquest though, especially if you pass Rally Str via Arthur or something.
Dwyer: Filler staff user, zzz.
Sophie: Doesn't really stand out from Silas/Peri to me?
Midori: Yukumira with less durability and a worse passive. How did someone related to Kaze end up with such unimpressive speed?

Shiro: No clue. "Didn't look impressive" sounds right.
Kiragi: Never even looked at him.
Asugi: As above.
Selkie: Has potential to exceed her dad and thus make up for his flaws with the right mom I guess, but I dunno, mine had Kagero and still had some trouble dealing damage...
Hisame: See Kiragi/Asgui.
Mitama: Staff rank and had some passable combat.
Caeldori: Like Shigure, a sky knight with okay enough stats. At least she's easy to get because Subaki is so early.
Rhajat: Solid, a better version of Hayato who is already fine once caught up. Surprised she wasn't a Dark Mage, but I don't mind the staff use upon promotion.

Siegbert: Xander with slightly better stats and no Siegfried. So... another cavalier? That's fine, elbow room/shelter/whatever he got from mom is a good skill set.
Forrest: Filler staff user, can probably get some magical offence going if you need.
Ignatius: Tank, more balanced than his dad. If you use his dad as pure pairup fodder then Ignatius may be able to slide into the party in a tank role.
Velouria: She's fine, mine had Camilla as mom so she was a better version of her dad overall. Usual range-1 downsides but did have quite good offence anyway.
Percy: Best child character in the game IMO, owing entirely to that personal skill which freaking rules. Fates has several ways to reduce enemy crit, but most come at a cost to your offence (bronze, pairing up instead of using attack stance). Percy passively reduces it just by existing, giving you a greater array of options to safely tangle with crit-rate enemies. Oh yeah and he's a great rallybot (str from dad, def from his own class), any decent combat he does have is just gravy.
Ophelia: On paper with a magical mom she should be one of the best magic users in Fates, though the durability does need some work. A significantly improved Nyx, or a Leo with more offence and less durability. Haven't used her myself though.
Soleil: I dunno, merc line still not too impressive, might be able to set up some neat skill stuff with the right mom.
Nina: Utility and some great offence with the Shining Bow, but very fragile. A fun build though I'm not certain how good it is.

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Random Consonant

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2016, 11:53:01 PM »
Conquest-only ratings go

Corrin - So I hear having two weapon types when unpromoted is pretty good, more so when you can hit both defenses.  Since doubling is actually kind of hard if you didn't take +Spd the downside to using Dragonstones doesn't do that much to make itself felt.  She doesn't get to do that "can do everything while being the best" thing that Robin did so I guess she's only like a 8/10 or something, oh no.
Felicia - Hey it's a prepromote who isn't actually a prepromote, that's sort of cool, too bad she pretty much has no offense outside of reclassing or the C12 Flame Shuriken but hey at least she has that earlygame staff user who isn't made of damp tissue paper thing going on.  7/10
Jakob - Basically similar to Felicia except for the fact that he can kind of hurt things physically instead of being able to kind of hurt things magically.  7/10
Gunter - Well he helps for a few maps and Forceful Partner/Shelter are something at least, but he's still kind of a utility character without actual true utility.  3/10.
Azura - What score did I give Ninian way back when, 7?  Ninian -1 feels right so 6/10.
Silas - Solid durability attached to no real statistical failure, he's not impressive but you do want people who can take more than one hit comfortably.  6/10
Kaze - Really fast!  Lots of RES!  Wait what is that STR stat ew ew ew.  At least daggers have utility but man, he risks failing his main combat niche.  At least Locktouch is something.  5/10.
Mozu - Conquest doesn't really have good bow users and being one is at least a better niche than it used to be so you really could do a lot worse and as far as projects go she's one of the lower-investment ones.  If I were factoring Birthright into this she'd be lower but I'm not so 5.5 works.
Shura - Staff filler, is okay with a bow.  5/10.
Izana - Staff filler, bad personal skill.  3.5/10.

Elise - Mounted healer, offensive stats are kind of nuts so she can wreck things post-promotion.  Has the durability of wet tissue paper against physicals but no one gets everything.  7/10.
Arthur - Durable right up until the point where his passive bites him in the ass, fixing this hurts his offense or requires Percy (though in his defense you probably want Percy), and then you get faster axe users anyways.  I guess this is less harmful on Casual but even considering that rarely do I deploy people for their ability to get themselves killed.  3.5/10.
Effie - Tank, the speed is problematic at base but the growth is fine and she can at least hit fairly hard, but later on people come along who can do these things while not having the associated armor knight problems.  Still one of the best in the series though, for what little that says.  6/10.
Odin - Fates really doesn't want you to employ Nosferatu tanking strategies.  I guess Odin is the closest you get to making it work without the extra investment of reclassing someone but maaaaaaaaaan he's vaguely bad at everything.  3/10.
Niles - In his defense your options for bow user in Conquest are him, reclassing Mozu, or waiting until Shura (or getting Nina I GUESS).  Less in his defense his STR is about as bad as Kaze's and his magebusting has the added problem of having WTD unless you make a Bow Knight out of him.  At least his utility is better but some of that is tied up in Adventurer.  5.5/10.
Nyx - Not really fast enough or hard-hitting enough to make up for the fact that she's bad at pretty much everything else.  3/10.
Camilla - Glorious elder sister carries team.  9.5/10.
Beruka - I'm not really sure how I feel about this overall package but being able to fly and be at least semi-durable make you okay in this game.  5/10.
Selena - Mercenary isn't a particularly good class to be in, no, and she has the STR problems as seen with Kaze/Niles/Beruka without any of the utility that they bring.  55% DEF growth at least?!  I guess you can reclass her to pegknight so she can rallybot without having to get Shigure though but there's got to be better uses for that.  4/10.
Laslow - Bad at things that aren't STR, also rare footage of a character who manages to more or less be completely obsoleted by his offspring.  2/10.
Peri - Heeeeeeey it's someone with a STR/SPD combo.  Kind of glassy but actual offense is cool.  6/10.
Benny - Uh.  He's tanky!  Wait holy shit he's the slowest character ever and basically requires Wary Fighter and I dunno, even with early promotion that's asking a bit much for someone that inept at offense, particularly when you're not that far off from getting Xander anyways.  3/10.
Charlotte - Well she has HP, unlike Nyx.  However she's also kind of underleveled and has those accuracy issues.  Package is probably better than Nyx anyways though.  4/10?
Leo - Well he's certainly pretty good if he gains SPD, but exists in that zone where his base is low enough that he's going to be weeping lilies if he doesn't (hi) and his personal skill isn't very good so he may well rate as the worst Nohr royal, but at the same time as noted he has a lot of ways to develop and they're decent places to be.  6.5/10.
Keaton - He's kind of like Arthur except instead of being critbait he has no range 2 option, this isn't -as- damning in Fates as it is in some other FE games but he's pretty much not going to be much more than okay.  5/10.
Xander - Awww yeah, tank with a range 1-2 sword that makes him even more tanky.  SPD is rather suspect and the RES is somewhat trashy but he's pretty close to not dying from physical mooks, easily #3 unit at worst.  8/10.
Flora - Staff filler, basically bad at everything but at least she has staves which is more than you can say for Laslow.  [2.1..2.4]/10

I'm not really sure how to rate kids so this is mostly in comparison to what you already have by that time.

Kana - Resoundingly meh compared to Corrin, though at least having another source of Draconic Hex could be cool?  I dunno.  5/10.
Shigure - Acceptable filler who can Rallybot, not terribly impressive otherwise, but Rally Speed without reclassing is cool.  6/10.
Dwyer - Lazy staff filler, may as well not have a passive.  4/10.
Sophie - Filler cavalier, not really much point in using over Peri and doesn't really have the defense to sub for Silas.  4/10.
Midori - Uh.  I'm sure someone will bring up some Midori tweak build but that's probably going to involve too much work for me to care about.  2/10.

Siegbert - Oh look it's Silas 2.0 gained far later.  3/10.
Forrest - Well he's better at taking hits than Elise?  Slower though.  At least he's acceptable staff filler at worst.  4/10.
Ignatius - Oh goody, another knight who still kind of sucks at the things other tanks succeed at.  3/10.
Velouria - Probably workable enough to merit the same score as Keaton.  5/10.
Percy - Wonderful passive, good rallybot, good class options... kind of wants better offense but no one gets everything, still cleanly the best kid.  7/10.
Ophelia - Basically mandates Elise as a mom (but who else are you paring her with on Conquest), but is certainly good enough at her job to consider slotting in once you've overcome that hurdle, just don't try to Nosferatu tank with that durability, but a stray javelin isn't the end of the world.  5.5/10.
Soleil - Actually has STR without Laslow's SPD failure, but kind of glassy and as noted Mercenary not really a good class, though the passive does help with the former issue a bit, though she's probably going to always suffer a bit from the fact that her gameplan is basically Peri without a horse.  5/10.
Nina - Niles with better offense I guess though I'm not sure how much I actually care about having a third Outlaw.  5/10.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:00:01 AM by Random Consonant »

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2016, 06:00:21 AM »
Trails extravaganza ratings, because I'm a dumb crazy person who does things I probably shouldn't do, like play games like these in moonrunes.  Will probably play host to other games in the series if/when I play and finish them.

Sky FC: mostly going to be the same as Snowfire's ratings with some minor adjustments since his reasoning is p. much spot on, admissions of underrating Olivier aside.

Estelle: 6.5/10
Joshua: 7/10
Schera: 6/10
Olivier: 7/10
Kloe: 8/10
Agate: 3/10
Tita: 2/10
Zane: 4/10

---

Sky SC: As with FC, the order goes mages > balanced > fighters for the most part.

Estelle: Flexibility is still good since she can cover most of what you actually need, but "hard-hitting ST S-Craft" kind of not a great niche since late they won't hit -that- much harder compared to fighters since their STR will be that much higher (that and well, TitS SC believes in quantity over quality for the most part so having all your S-Crafts be ST sort of blows in its own way), so due to that and how female-only equips skew for most of the game she's more sort of magey than fightery, only instead of mage line length she doesn't have to put up with locks instead.  6.5/10.

Schera: Well unlike in FC, she has no availability issues! (if you picked her as your partner at the start of C1 anyways)  On the other hand, holy shit, they made wind quartz worse somehow as Shield reduces ATS in exchange for somewhat non-meaningful ADF gains, which is of course unacceptable, and Evade/Impede are still lol tier.  She at least has the most passable physical out of the mages IIRC and GT quick is something, but like FC's final dungeon SC sort of wants you to run a 2/2 male/female party for armor reasons and considering that Estelle is forced and how early Kloe joins up there's just not that much reason to be excited.  Still, only so bad a mage can be in this game.  6/10.

Agate: Well he's still more or less a pure fighter, and we all know how well that went over in FC and spoilers it ain't much better here.  On the other hand, like Schera he has no availability issues this time (again provided you picked him at the start of C1) and Wild Rage is kind of hilarious early since provided you can get around the fact that it eats 70% mHP, getting 150 CP on the spot is pretty good.  The other problem is that uh there are three kinds of fire quartz in the game, and one is for a status effect (which is, of course, not great) and the other is one-of-a-kind and better placed on a mage.  IDK, I think I like him better in the early game than Schera but past that magepremacy applies in full so he's ultimately worse.  4/10.

Kloe: Hello, yes, it's "gamebest ATS in practice for much of the game."  Also Lichtkreis still owns as a panic button and bird is still very powerful.  Has the most elemental locks out of anyone so she's less versatile than Olivier but she's around for almost the entire game, water still perfectly fine as a lock (oh no you have to put up with ADF reduction with Mind quartz now, how horrible) thanks to Yin-Yang being the new Haze and you have no real reason not to be using her.  9/10.

Olivier: Oh no, a single mirage slot, what shall we do.  Actually stronger than Kloe early thanks to that C1 male gear previously mentioned, but unlike her he misses C7 (as well as 8 but so does Kloe and C8 is pretty much inconsequential anyways) and comes back during the final chapter in need of some catching up but w/e, still #2 PC.  8/10.

Tita: Uh.  Has the dubious distinction of being the only PC to actually get OHKO'd by something at proper levels.  Three-line orbment still sucks, space locks still suck, and she still doesn't have the things the other pure fighters get to make up for these failings.  1.5/10.

Zane: Self-buff status: still kind of nuts.  Doesn't like that Defense quartz lowers STR now but can deal thanks to that.  Still very durable and being able to draw enemy fire is an okay boon when it works.  Likely still the best of the pure fighters but the gap between him and Agate is lower now.  4/10.

Kevin: His availability isn't great, but hey, mage with time locks and a craft that gives people CP, that's cool.  Grail Sphere is also cool in theory but not much really justifies it on normal.  Doesn't get a single line orbment and is of course using the inferior for ATS-boosting male specific gear but that's pretty much all he does wrong when he's around.  6/10.

Joshua: Hello, yes, it's "full MT S-Craft."  Offensive stats still good in both directions, orbment not as good since it's a 4-2 as opposed to Schera's/Kevin's 5-1 but again time locks are perfectly acceptable.  Availability blows since C7/final are the only places that really matter when he's around, but still beats the "but why" tier that's to follow.  7/10.

Josette: Oh hey it's an Estelle variant... with Kloe-level HP (i.e. not tragic but still kind of bad)... and earth locks... and bad damage... and is only around for the final chapter...  please go away.  1/10.

Julia: Oh hey it's the 4-2 orbment type Joshua has so she must be--SPACE LOCKS, also worse ATS than Estelle so why bother during the final chapter, a slightly longer first line isn't worth space locks, and nothing she brings to the table is worth using her over people not named Tita/Josette.  At least she's not incompetent for the C3 boss fight.  2.5/10.

Mueller: Shares the dubious distinction of being the only other character with a 4-line orbment, though at least his locks are water and his ATS isn't completely wretched, though still not great.  Probably the best of the three final chapter only goobers but doesn't have Julia's being a competent warm body for the C3 boss.  2.5/10.

---

Zero: to be perfectly honest I'm not exactly sure why I decided to play the Zero/Azure duology but it's been far from the worst impulse play decisions I've made.  Again mage > balanced > fighter applies as usual but at least the distance between mage and balanced is honestly closer early than it was in Sky FC.  Mild spoilers for a game not in English and probably won't be for some time if at all I guess?  IDK, I should probably throw up some actual obscura as opposed to things that simply haven't caught on.

Lloyd: Fairly similar setup to Estelle, but instead of that "hard-hitting ST S-Craft" thing he's somewhat above average at durability.  I don't think this is a winning trade since his other schtick (hard-hitting combo crafts) is endgame only and is gated behind vaguely FAQ bait things.  On the flipside, at least he gets an AoE S-Craft and being able to inflict paralysis is okay when it's actually an option.  6/10.

Elie: Gets a Lichtkreis clone in the form of Aura Rain so you can probably guess that she's good.  Marginally higher ATS than the other mage at base and wind locks are less pathetic than they were in Sky, but her claim to be the new Kloe is kind of marred by her 5-1 orbment and not having bird, but really not having a single line is the only thing she actually does wrong.  8/10.

Randy: And just as Lloyd is fairly similar to Estelle and Elie is fairly similar to Kloe, Randy is fairly similar to Agate, only better than how he was in Sky FC, though instead of getting impede he gets status options and an AoE S-Craft right off the bat.  And hey if you get his combo craft with Lloyd upgraded (I didn't) it should hit things really damn hard.  Still he's more or less a pure fighter and when the going gets tough those just aren't that good.  4/10.

Tio: The other mage and owner of the game's sole single line orbment, though since Mind got moved to Mirage and Shield got moved to Water, water locks aren't as good as they were in Sky.  However this is where I mention that EP is actually rather restrictive early compared to Sky (though about as plentiful late) and while hitting ADF with virtually everything is a neat quirk, it's not all that meaningful early on outside of certain enemies.  On the other hand, has a debuff (for both defenses even, for what that's worth) that also scans enemies, I hear some people overvalue scan.  Good hard-hitting S-Craft though, and later on picks up a Grail Sphere clone in the form of Zero Field, for all that like SC there's not a lot of call for it on normal.  Worse than Lloyd early (probably) but better late than she is worse early.  6.5/10.

Noel: Outside of the main CPD four, the other PCs more or less exist for the sake of being warm bodies or their support crafts.  Noel... is probably the worst of the bunch, pure fighter with a four-line orbment and earth locks, but unlike the last time we saw this, her durability is non-special but her physical is at least a mid-sized AoE.  Unfortunately there's not a -whole lot- that can be done with this as the randoms in the dungeons she's around for are largely status-immune so... she's Randy that is less durable and does less damage, but can at least spread pain without blowing CP.  Oh well, at least her support craft debuffs SPD heavily and she's not Tita-level inept.  3/10.

Wazy/Lazy with that Polish dark L/Mr. Hemisphere: Pretty good guest character all things considered, seeing as how he's both a mage (albeit one with space locks, but that's not as bad as it was in Sky) and his main guest stint is when you have only two other PCs and have to escort an NPC.  S-Craft is jank but no one gets everything.  6/10.

"Yin": Another fighter... with mirage locks (this is Mind/EP here, so uh) and bizarrely less EP than Noel despite a three-line orbment as opposed to four.  Good self buff at least but otherwise plainly worse than Randy as her other stuff isn't worth mentioning at the point she's around (90% ID!  Against vaguely worthless and undurable randoms.  Woopie.)  3/10.

Dudley: Another fighter, though one with a real orbment (time locks are still fine, 4-2 also still fine) and he provides things like debuffing (though only for defense) and healing/CP recovery (though only for a single target).  His support craft is pretty good when it kicks in too, a STR/SPD buff to all allies.  Not as useful as Mr. Hemisphere or the two people below, acceptable enought.  5/10.

Estelle: So this is why I didn't credit Lloyd's other schtick that much, Estelle and Joshua provide it for free during the rather lengthy final dungeon.  Oh and she has an AoE S-Craft now if you need to S-Break with her for some reason, not that she cares because her combo craft with Joshua is that dumb.  6/10.

Joshua: Has less HP than Estelle now.  Oh no?  Still good at providing whichever kind of beats you need and still has that full MT S-Craft thing if you need to S-Break with him for some reason.  6/10.

----

Azure: Well master quartz means stat spreads aren't terribly relevent outside of some exceptions and the non-Lloyd PCs only have one lock this time around so being balanced isn't inherently good.

Lloyd: Well, at least having a 3-3 orbment is something... but all the other fighters also have at least 3 on their primary line so the only thing he really has on them is a better EP pool, and having 2nd worst STR out of the game's five fighters and sketchy mults outside of upgraded combo crafts (of which you can get one) means he's pretty much going to be whatever on the damage front.  And, you know, has neither range nor move at base.  Normal crafts are occasionally useful, but you don't get the good version of the self-buff until the final dungeon and everything else is sort of take or leave.  4/10.

Noel: So this is something of an odd case.  Noel sports the worst base STR out of the fighters, sketchier mults than Lloyd, and worst ATS out of the cast (and again, 4-line orbment), but has that AoE physical and hey this time things can actually be done with it.  Also picked up a -50% STR debuff between games, that's cool when it works.  That... probably outweighs the not-good stats and again, hey, it's not like she's Tita-level inept, but she kind of does have an expiration date here.  4.5/10.

Elie: Aura Rain!  Still really great.  Doesn't have cast-best ATS due to some stat shuffling between games but whatever.  Apparently you can pull off some potentially infinite loop using her GT quick craft?  8/10.

Mr. Hemisphere: Has the most passable physical game of the mages, in part due to his weapon giving him a crit rate making up for his poor strength (though still better than Elie/Tio's... Tio doesn't care though), and is the most durable of the three, but for a lot of the game he's... just not terribly exciting unless you really like AoE Impede crafts, as everything else he brings to the table is either doable by others (SPD/MOV debuffing) or just sucks (Deadly Heaven is the worst S-Craft in the game)... until the final chapter where he gets the hardest-hitting S-Craft in the game, running off his good ATS, hitting a wide area, oh yeah it can crit too thanks to his weapons.  Still, that's a long time off.  6.5/10.

Randy: Hey he gets Agate's +150 CP for 70% mHP schtick... at Lv101 (i.e. the final dungeon).  Castbest STR and non-sketchy mults though!  And hey he can be kind of salvaged as a caster somewhat, though he'll never have much variety.  5.5/10.

Tio: Castbest ATS!  Good thing too because everything she does except for calling her wolf buddy runs off of it.  Zero Field also comes up more than once too, though some of that was for winning-is-optional fights against bosses with 2x PCHP overkill S-Crafts.  I guess she cries when arts reflection comes up but that's not very common.  HP sucks enough that she might get oneshotted by some endgame S-Crafts if you don't give her a HP quartz but why would you do that.  7/10.

Rixia: 2nd best STR of the cast and averagish ATS, also 4-1-1 orbment which... is gimped for EP for some arbitrary reason.  Seeing as how the EP cost inflation in this game is real, this is kind of bad!  Good self buff at least, but past that she's kiiind of all about the instant death and her S-Craft is no Phantom Raid.  Also, y'know, final chapter only.  4/10.

Dudley: And this guy can pull of the instant death too, as well as, y'know, buff the party.  Also having a real orbment outweighs his Randy-level ATS here.  Pretty good except for the fact that he uh joins at the second-to-last dungeon but at least he's actually competent unlike SC's "but why" tier.  4/10.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 10:13:17 PM by Random Consonant »

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2016, 04:14:10 AM »
FEF

Corrin: 7.5/10. She’s decent but her speed can often be a bit of a problem. She’s definitely not as versatile as Robin.

Felicia: 6.5/10.

Jakob: 7/10.  These two are pretty similar, but Jakob is better early on, which I feel like is more important for the Jeigan-ey characters.

Gunter: 2/10. nope

Azura: 8/10. +3 speed rules but holy shit the durability of doom

Silas: 6/10. Horse and multiple weapons makes a solid unit, but he’s a little too slow to be great.

Kaze: 6/10. Locktouch and speed are both good things.

Mozu: 3.5/10. I dunno

Shura: 7/10. A little surprised at the low rankings for this guy. He’s pretty much always slipped into a pretty good niche for me, and in Revelation he’s outright good.

Izana: 3.5/10. Not as much of a niche.

-

Rinkah: 4/10. Just not a very complete package, but she does give good pairup bonuses.

Sakura: 6/10. Great on Rev where she gets the Shining Bow and she has a great passive.

Hana: 5/10.  A glass cannon with a bit of a slow start.

Subaki: 6/10. He starts out pretty good and falls off, but I appreciate that early stuff.

Orochi: 2.5/10.  Ew that speed with that durability. Duel strikes are cool, at least.

Saizo: 7/10. Tanky and Flame Shuriken can shore up some magical prowess that might be lacking in a BR playthrough.

Hinoka: 9/10. Flies, is great, although a slightly slow start?

Azama: 7.5/10.  Wtf is up with his growths? So tanky

Setsuna: 5/10.  See Hana

Hayato: 4.5/10. Mostly points for Rev

Oboro: 6/10.  Seals are cool, her offense and defense are fine.

Hinata: 2.5/10. Nope

Takumi: 7/10. Kinda like Orochi, but doesn’t die as easily and is a bit more likely to double stuff, but those two things are a big deal.

Kagero: 7/10. See Hana and Setsuna without the slow start.

Reina: 8/10.  Very solid PC with few weaknesses, although she falls off  a bit later?

Kaden: 4/10. 1 range is too limiting

Ryoma: 9.5/10. He has low move!!!!!!!! And is amazing otherwise

Scarlet: 8/10.  Flying tanks are pretty cool.

Yukimura: 5/10.  Only really useful for filling holes in the roster late

-

Elise: 7/10. Ends up pretty solid at offense and is 7 move, but that defense is sad

Arthur: 2.5/10. Gets crit too often and his magical durability makes me cry.

Effie: 7.5/10. Really solid earlygame unit, but she falls off after a while.

Odin: 2.5/10.  ew

Niles: 8/10.  Locktouch and later game healing and great speed is pretty great

Nyx: 4/10.  Works well enough as a niles pairup but otherwise not so good

Camilla: 10/10. Makes the world die. Trample is great and she gets it pretty early, and her speed and durability are both great. And her str ain’t half bad either.

Beruka: 6/10.   Camilla-lite but that’s not the worst place to be

Selena: 4/10. Not enough power

Laslow: 4/10. Not enough durability

Peri: 6.5/10. Horse and offense and res are all benefits, but you have to be careful not to put her against too many enemies

Benny: 4/10. tank

Charlotte: 6/10. A slow starter, but she’s very worth it, ultimately. Even her bad res is partially mitigated by her insane HP, and her offense ends up being just dumb

Leo: 7/10. I find him a bit temperamental but he is on average pretty solid. You can turn him into a Strategist, a Sorc, or kepe him a Dark Knight and all three of those options are interesting. When he doubles things he can be scary.

Keaton: 5/10.  See kaden I guess

Xander: 8.5/10. Tank who hits hard at 1-2 range, although he has his problems with offense and some magical durability issues

Flora: 2/10. Too many other people fill this niche.

Kana: 4/10
Midori:  4/10

Asugi: 4/10
Caeldori: 5/10
Rhajat: 7/10

Siegbert: 6/10
Forrest: 5/10
Ignatius: 4/10
Percy: 7.5/10
Ophelia: 6.5/10
Soleil: 4/10
Nina: 5/10
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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2016, 04:39:12 PM »
Baldur's Gate: Expanded Edition NPCs

Because I've played BG too much, I may as well do a rating topic for them.

Imoen: 7/10.  Despite what a lot of guides say, she's not the only thief you can use.  She's still solid, and is readily dual-classable to mage if you would rather that than a thief.  More importantly, however, is that she joins with no requirements, has no loyalty conditions, and comes with a very useful Wand of Magic Missiles that makes Tarnesh a lot easier to fight.

Montaron: 6.5/10.  Speaking of thieves, Montaron's a lot better than I expected.  Reasonably durable, and a nice shot with a sling--which has been buffed as of EE to allow for STR to damage.  Strong early pick, and effective later as well.  Docking half a point, however, since he's tethered to...

Xzar: 5/10.  Not going to lie, Xzar's in the running the worst mage in the game.  Larloch's Minor Drain is nice early on, but he quickly loses his value as he gets squishier and squishier due to lack of access to Illusion spells, which denies the main mage defense in this game, Mirror Image.  He, however, is still a usable mage, and he still has full access to crowd control options.  Just that he's...going to need to be babied or else he will die.  Fast.  It is possible to increase his utility by dualclassing him to Cleric in theory, but you'd need to give him one of the two usable wisdom books first.  Not sure I'm going to give that much respect as a result.  (Yeah, there's three, but the Marek and Lothander quest is a thing).

Jaheira:6/10.  She's got a weird midgame lag.  Early, she benefits from being a jeigan of sorts as she is barely away from her second level.  Then she starts lagging behind between her proficiencies (her best weapons are clubs and staves.  While improved from original, still not the best options there) and her multiclassing levels.  ...then in lategame she becomes quite useful again between her fourth level spell options.  That is some nasty midgame lag, though.

Khalid: 7.5/10.  He's a straight-class Fighter available with straightforward proficiencies.  This means a LOT, and you can easily give him High Mastery in longswords by endgame.  Furthermore, he's the most well-rounded of a tank among the fighters you have available, so if you must you can use the Gloves of the Brawler on someone else.  His morale's an issue, but overall he's a very solid frontliner.

Ajantis: Ajantis is a jeigan, simply put.  Starts at level 2, and is easily recruited if you find him--however, considering it is easy enough to wander in the wrong area in the place you recruit him and get murdered by Ankhegs, it may not be that easy to find him for a new player.  this aside, aside from starting at level 2 he has...issues.  His stats aren't terrible, but his proficiencies could use work; Bastard Swords are not a good weapon class by any means in BG as a whole, and as a Paladin he's only able to reach specialization.  Worse, he's a Detect-and-Smite paladin at heart, and will drop the party to attack you if you let an evil character join while he's in.  But really, the level advantage is all you can actually get.  He's got proficiency in longbows at least, so he's not entirely useless?  I'd give him a 5/10.

Kagain: Twenty.  Constitution.  Kagain has HP like nobody's business, and has a trait that you can only get if you had the same score--only attainable with a natural 19 CON and a manual (so basically, dwarf or half-orc without exporting and re-importing): Regeneration.  Moreso, straight-class fighter with access to axes, easy recruitment and the loyalty is a bloody joke.  Axes are a worse weapon than longswords for magic weapons, but this is slightly balanced by the fact that you get throwing axes as a built-in ranged option.  His one main downside?  His Dexterity's nothing special, making him a competitor for the Gloves of the Brawler.  I'd put him somewhere between 7.5 and 8.

Garrick: Bard NPCs are bad in BG1, let's get that out of the way.  Garrick is the less bad of the two, though, I would like to say?  His recruitment is a bit of a pain in the ass, and when you get him he may not even be high enough level to use magic--oh, and unless you get a certain other NPC's questline complete, you won't get the one armor in BG1:EE that bards can cast in.  He's still not Eldoth, though. [EDIT] For all his failings, though, he is a good wandmonkey.  Give him wands of Fire and Fear (not hard, you start seeing them a lot once you hit midgame), and he'll be a useful party member.  Not necessarily on his own direct merits, but BG1 is a game that rewards use of wands.  4/10.

Neera: In her favor, Neera is the one full-fledged generalist mage you can get without making CHARNAME one or dualclassing someone into one.  Like specialists, she gets a bonus spell slot per level as well, and arguably the strongest spell in the game, Nahal's Reckless Dweomer.  At the cost of triggering a Wild Surge, this spell will replicate the effects of any spell in her spellbook.  Note that I did not say memorized--she can cast Fireball at level 2 with a first-level slot this way.  it is equally likely to murder the party with one of many, many results, however.  Want a demon summoned to eat your entire party?  Yeah, that'll be an amusing time.  Simply put, Wild Surges are a thing you're going to just have to live with.  Furthermore, her quest reward is...nothing special.  Pretty much third-best mage in the game by my count, and earns a solid 7.5/10

Kivan: 8/10.  Kivan is a very strong pick, all said and done.  18/12 strength, 17 dexterity, and the combination of specialization in longbows with elven accuracy bonuses.  Longbows are already a really good weapon class, and he has Halberds as a melee option.  Furthermore, he joins at level 2, which can be a fairly big advantage this early on.  Really, this is partly a testament to just how good bows are in BG1, but he's a powerful addition.  Just be sure to actually work towards his quest.

Shar-Teel: 6.5/10.  Shar-Teel is a bit out of the way and has the same sorts of dangers to her area that Ajantis does--just with Basilisks rather than Ankhegs.  Also, her recruitment is...annoying.  Is she worth it?  Well...it's hard to say.  Her gimmick is that she's got two dots in Dual-Wielding, and so you'd be tempted to put the third dot in it to minimize the off-hand bonus.  It's more effective overall to boost one of her weapons to Mastery.  More notably, she's...going to be squishy if you play her all-in on dual-wielding, so don't use her as a tank unless that is still the least squishy you have.  18/56 strength and dual-wielding make her an effective scrapper, though. [EDIT] Throwing Daggers exist, and they're custom-built for her statline, alongside having a base 2 APR and being damage-modified by strength.  Her ability to make the best use of them out of any available character here outside of CHARNAME gives her a solid ranged option and bumps her up half a point.  Longswords are a trap with her, simply put.

Viconia: 7/10.  I'm admittedly a bit lost on where to place her.  Viconia's a pure caster cleric with solid AC if you can get past her rather...anemic strength.  Give her the ankheg plate, please.  Aside from having the nice Cleric spellset, she's also in possession of 50% Magic Resistance, which can prove to be far more useful than expected.  Just don't rely on it too much.  She starts to fall off around BG2, but for now she's definitely earning a high rank.

Safana: 3/10.  Ughhhhh.  Safana's a pain in the ass to be honest.  Imoen-level thief, sure, but then she has a disproportionately hard recruitment quest that involves taking out six Sirines and then at least two Flesh Golems.  Not exactly easy fighting, and she's well out of the way anyway.  Lots of experience involved, but you're better off just heading off to go through the cave yourself with a party of six.  She's not terrible, but I am docking her a lot of points just for her quest for someone who's equivalent to a starting party member.

Rasaad: 4.5/10.  Rasaad's recruitment is easy enough, just talk to him.  As for his usefulness as a party member...that gets questionable.  Blame the fact that he's a Monk in BG1.  The worst of the new characters, though his quest gets you a really nice item in the Big-Fisted Belt, for when you feel a second party member needs 19 Strength.

Minsc: 6.5/10.  Minsc is pretty much the best scrapper you're getting as far as the Good-aligned types go.  Unfortunately, he's still classed Ranger, which hurts him to a notable degree in what he's good at insofar that it keeps him from mastery.  Fortunately, he's still got 18/97 strength, which is the best you can find (second-best as of EE), and meshes well with the greatswords he prefers to use.  Rage is probably more dangerous than Neera's Wild Surges, since he runs a risk of turning that sword on you.  The Dynaheir rescue quest isn't...really that hard either, truthfully speaking.

Edwin: 8/10.  Let's be straightforward here.  Edwin is the best mage NPC you can get in the original BG1.  This isn't up for debate.  Extra spells per level in exchange for his amulet slot?  Done.  That being said, he's not quite at his apex here, since BG2 lacks the myriad bullshit defense and augmentation spells that mages can get, so he's remaining quite squishy for the duration, and you'll want a separate source of Identify.  Still a good bit better than...

Dynaheir: Xzar's competitor for worst mage, to be honest.  She loses a few of the better crowd control spells of enchantment and doesn't gain much in return, and barring some manipulation, she's mutually exclusive with Edwin, who, well...see above. [EDIT] The sheer lethality of poison in BG bumps her up to a 6/10.

Branwen: Less squishy cleric than Viconia, and has the better wisdom of the two recruitable clerics.  Easy enough recruitment, too, either have 500 gold, a good enough Pick Pockets score, or another source of a Stone to Flesh scroll, and you'll have her in your party.  Hammer proficiency's also nice, which means Ashideena gets use if you get it before getting her.  At this point, though, I'm more willing to say that Viconia has the better package with her Magic Resistance, so she gets a 6/10.

Dorn: I really don't like Dorn.  He is useful as hell, however.  His illegal race/class combo (You can only make a human blackguard in BG:EE) gives him some notable advantages.  Probably the best frontline scrapper, as he has 19 STR naturally, Blackguard immunities (Level Drain's not a factor in BG1, but Fear will slaughter parties), Poison Weapon, and Aura of Despair work together well.  Just keep in mind he has no ranged option, since his proficiencies are solely focused into optimizing his ability with greatswords.  Adding the lack of need to actually find magic weapons for him, and I can't really give him less than a 8/10. [EDIT] Dorn's quests bring you some curious, albeit not too useful items, most notable of which are free scrolls, Elven Chainmail, and Albruin+1, a Bastard Sword that hits as hard as a +3 weapon and gives some nice benefits.  ...pity only one encounter in BG1 actually uses invis and the main sources of poison damage, which it grants immunity to, are past the point that you get this weapon.  Worth noting, may increase his score by a half-point if you use bastard swords (WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT) or a full point if you're playing a bard, thief-mage, or fighter-mage.

Xan: And here we have the last of the reasonably early-joiners.  He can't do too much damage, but he's got everything else, and his constitution is just short of active HP penalties.  And let's not kid ourselves, that moonblade is just for show.  I feel safe putting him at a 6.5/10.

Coran: Coran doesn't join until chapter 4, but he's legitimately good.  Illegal proficiency combos and impossible stats without manuals make him hands-down the best archer in the game.  He's a natural fit for the Dead Shot, which will, late into the game, put his THAC0 in the low single-digits.  Personal point of view may be skewed but I'll have to give him a 9/10.  Bows are king in BG1, and he's the best at them.

Faldorn: 7/10.  Faldorn's a late-joiner, and unlike Coran comes after one of the big hurdles in Chapter 4--the goddamned spider-infested portion of Cloakwood.  This is a pity because she does fill an actual role in-game despite what one'd think of her sharing a class with Jaheira, obtainable in Chapter 1.  Faldorn, as a straight-class druid, scales up to just below seventh level at the maximum possible.  Druids, as opposed to clerics, are a bit more caster-y and trade in some durability and crowd control spells for more summoning options and direct offense in the form of Call Lightning and the insect spells.  This is noticeable with the level 4 spell, Summon Woodland Beings, which summons a nymph who in turn...can cast a variety of cleric spells.  Also considering Faldorn can still use Ankheg Plate without issues, and she remains a strong option, if late-joining.  Just don't treat her as a frontliner ever.

Eldoth: ...2.5/10.  Imagine Garrick, but joining three chapters later, and a stat build focusing on STR and CON.  That is Eldoth, and he is bad.  At the very least, he starts out with Horror, but he can't cleanly switch between his jobs, and his special ability works well against his stat build.  I suppose you could make him okayish if you saved the Gloves of the Brawler for him /and/ got the Elven Chain from Dorn's questline, but good god, it's not worth it. [EDIT] Grudgingly, he makes a decent wand user still.  Bumped up half a point in part because of how late he joins, and because I still think he's otherwise less than useless.

Yeslick: Finally got to use him and...I'm mildly underwhelmed?  He's not necessarily /bad/ per se, but unless you rush the main plot (and god help you through Cloakwood 2 and the mine entrance encounter if you do), he's eating the experience scaling cap and will be well behind on EXP.  Nevertheless, his class combo is good, and hammer spec lets you give him Ashideena unless you sold it way back in chapter 1.  Or have someone else using it.  He's not terrible, just...probably the worst-placed of the good recruitables, and falls into the same sort of weird position Jaheira does on not being able to decide between frontlining and support.  Plus side, if you weren't carrying a spare suit of armor, the encounter at the mine entrance does give you a free Plate +1 to throw on him.  Overall I'd have to give him a 5/10; he's just not as distinctly good as Coran or Faldorn here.

Baeloth: Broken.  Baeloth's a sorcerer with way more spells, and spells per day, than his class should allow him, and it shows--and he has pretty much every spell you'd expect for him.  Barring some crowd control--and he can generally make that up in the next couple of levels.  I don't think I can give him anything less than a 10/10.

Quayle: Doesn't join until chapter 5, and Illusionist/Cleric is...a thing?  He doesn't get Horror, mainly.  4/10 on the basis that he's not really going to find a place in any party that's made it that far, barring a permadeath run that's exhausted that many characters.  also lol cleric with 10 wis.

Alora: Late-joining thief who is honestly really hard to find.  19 DEX and in EE, her fixed item boosts her a lot; +2 AC, saves, and +10% to all thief skills is...quite effective I'd like to say.  She joins at the point, though, that there's only two (three if you actually go through Durlag's Tower) places where she'd be useful.  3.5/10 due to how late she joins, and how in order to have gotten to the point you can get her, you probably needed a thief to get through the Cloakwood Mines to begin with.

Tiax: Tiax will never point and click.  The day will never come.  3/10 feels like a good place to put him considering his class division.

Skie: Late-joining thief who...requires and is chained to Eldoth.  I'm going to have to say that she has the same value as him.  2/10.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 05:22:08 PM by Namagomi »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2016, 07:16:43 PM »
Did Kivan get nerfed? I remember looking at his status page in OG Baldur's Gate and he had like 60% of all kills while Khalid had... 10? Bows were ridiculous

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2016, 07:29:18 PM »
Kivan's still good.  Truthfully, I was half-asleep when I pitched the numbers and can probably see half-point variations either way for a lot of them.

Except Eldoth.  He sucks.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2016, 11:33:56 PM »
Kivan didn't get nerfed but I would agree with an 8 or so.  Archers are killer in BG1, and yeah he is still going to put out like 25% of your damage in a party of 6, but kill count isn't really reflective of value.  That is killing lots of 4hp Kobolds that weren't going to do more than crit your tank for 1-6 damage.

Khalid is the best tank in the game, available right near the start of the game and his character quest is just the main quest.  The downside to him be he is packaged with an acceptable off tank/utility caster.  I can live with that. 

Kivan kills shit.  Khalid makes it so you don't have to kite everything while he does it.

Also the level advantage Ajantis has is just based around your XP when you recruit him (it does trend to go up for NPCs compared to your main).

Dynaheir I think is a bit better than you rate, though yeah mutually exclusive from Edwin bites.  Honestly the reason I don't use her is Minsc....  But that might just be because of the reasons above pointing out that my front line is full.  Her Slow Poison free skill is just kinda nice.   I think I have used it about as much as Yeslick's Dispel Magic (which is to say not much but hey it saves a spell slot).

Also you definitely were tired.  Swapping from scores at the end of analysis to the start and then ultimately giving up on formatting was kinda amusing.
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SnowFire

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2016, 03:18:29 AM »
Belated, but Random's Trails SC rankings look good to me.  I think the game designers wanted to do some kind of Melfice-esque THIS IS WHY YOU ARE NO GOOD with Josette by letting her join the party then be far outclassed by her anime rival Estelle.  Theoretically better status than Tita, except that Tita's is easier to apply from range and isn't immuned by EVERYTHING at endgame, just most things.  And worse damage than Tita.  And a joke of an S-Craft that isn't even available in the section you're most likely to use her in.  Sheesh.

The only asterisks might be...  and all pretty minor +1 point level deals...

* Tita: I might be generous enough to give her a 2/10 due to her not being a complete trainwreck in C2, where her MT healing & MT blind are handy during the brief periods where she is actually alive.  Maybe even 2.5 since I felt like I could get more offense out of her than FC, too!  Let's not get too crazy though.

* Agate: I dunno, Wild Rage stratz can backfire horribly and are sometimes more fun than effective, but they genuinely can do some things that nobody else can, like clear out hordes of magic-resistant enemies.  Most badass random-clearing if for some reason Aerial isn't hacking it, too.  Still has classic fighter problems otherwise of course, needs Str-buffing to have physicals worth caring about vs. bosses, etc.  And the fighters all get a boost in C8 of course where you'll want to run more fighting setups than usual by the end if you care about sidequests at all.  He might make it to 6/10?  Or at least 5/10.

* Joshua: Well, he's also ludicrously overlevel for C7 where he can hard-carry for a bit, I might be willing to throw him a point for that and call it 8/10?  Dunno.  7/10 by the end or if you penalize for taking awhile to show up though, sure.

And yeah, Julia is seriously in a "but why" tier with totally worthless crafts.  Mueller at least has an excellent HP score so I can see using him for that...  maybe...  if you don't want Zane & Agate's better offensive tricks and want a sub-part mage who's tanky or something.  So probably not, but it would be a nice thought. 

--
As a thought that has nothing to do with in-game rankings, WTF at the trails FC & SC Evo soundtracks.  I mean it isn't *bad* but it's usually worse than the original which was great.  There are only like 2-3 remixes I think are better, most are equal or worse.  Ugh.

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2016, 06:12:12 PM »
Quote
* Tita: I might be generous enough to give her a 2/10 due to her not being a complete trainwreck in C2, where her MT healing & MT blind are handy during the brief periods where she is actually alive.  Maybe even 2.5 since I felt like I could get more offense out of her than FC, too!  Let's not get too crazy though.

I may be a bit biased since she also randomly forces herself into the party a few times when literally any other party member would be a better choice but she manages the feat of having appalling durability in a game where, certain freaks aside, damage numbers are not particularly high.

Quote
* Agate: I dunno, Wild Rage stratz can backfire horribly and are sometimes more fun than effective, but they genuinely can do some things that nobody else can, like clear out hordes of magic-resistant enemies.  Most badass random-clearing if for some reason Aerial isn't hacking it, too.  Still has classic fighter problems otherwise of course, needs Str-buffing to have physicals worth caring about vs. bosses, etc.  And the fighters all get a boost in C8 of course where you'll want to run more fighting setups than usual by the end if you care about sidequests at all.  He might make it to 6/10?  Or at least 5/10.

Well magic-resistant enemies aren't terribly common, and of course later on you have Joshua who is forced and deals with them well enough, limited party space man.  Also idk, C8 even with the sidequests is pretty small pickings in the grand scheme of things and if I were bumping fighters for that I'd probably sooner bump Zane because lol True Distend.  This is the rating I'm least happy with and I can see maybe bumping him up to 5 but 6 is a huge stretch.

Quote
* Joshua: Well, he's also ludicrously overlevel for C7 where he can hard-carry for a bit, I might be willing to throw him a point for that and call it 8/10?  Dunno.  7/10 by the end or if you penalize for taking awhile to show up though, sure.

I dunno, Trails EXP scaling strikes here, his level edge at least exists throughout the chapter but the part where it's at its highest is also the point where C7 is at its least threatening, so I can't really put much stock in the hard-carrying.

SnowFire

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2017, 04:33:44 AM »
Since I just finished it, and saw Jo'ou's DL ranking thread...  Persona 5!  P5 has pretty good non-Joker balance.  And if you're gonna make it so MC death is game over, I suppose I won't complain too much about Joker being good.  (For all that for friendship being a one-way street where you die for me but I don't shield you rubs me the wrong way.)

Short version:
9.5 - Joker
8 - Makoto
7 - Ann
6 - Ryuji, Haru
4- Yusuke, Morgana, Crow

Longer thoughts:
In general, I don't see a need to go into decimal rankings, but 9.5 might be my one exception, for characters who have enough weaknesses and exploitable flaws to not qualify as a 10, but break the game too hard to be a 9.  Joker's elemental defenses won't always be perfect (not so many Persona that resist/null a ton), and his death is game over.  Unsure how much to hold this against him personally, but it does mean he sometimes needs to play a little more defensive with him than you'd like.  He doesn't get Endure for "free" either, and Guard doesn't seem to trigger against MT, so he's sometimes kinda killable.  He also tends to SP-slurp harder than any other cast member, which means sometimes having to again hold back a bit when his variety isn't needed.  (Oh no, his spells are so good you're tempted to use them all the time.)  Basically I'm saying there's enough flaws here to not be a 10, something I reserve for "changes a hard game into an easy one, is nearly unstoppable."  The merits are too many to point out, so I'll just hit the two most important ones: he is utterly, utterly invaluable vs. Kamoshida & Madarame, possibly the two hardest bosses in the game.  And he's fantastic vs. Okumura, where the ability to hit a lot of weaknesses in succession is extremely important - you can't afford to go defensive or be put on the back foot in that fight.  Always going to earn you a high score for that.

-
Ryuji & Yusuke are kind of a pair.  They both emit a ton of physical damage of both ST & MT varieties.  This is super-great against Madarame as well as Palace 3, where you only have 1 SP Adhesive III at most (if you hard-charged Death confidant), and want to preserve resources.  And it's still useful to have a solid phys beater the whole game, because "hit a single weakness or get a lucky crit, Baton Pass into physical death" is pretty solid when an AOA isn't possible or the like, as phys resistance / nulling is shockingly rare for an SMT.  Ryuji is a little tankier, Yusuke is a little more accurate.  Both their spells are actually respectable enough if you have some elemental weaknesses to hit (reminder, Amps & Boosts for the cast only come at like Palace 7, so their spells aren't quite as horrible as the stat topic would have you think for most of the game)  So…  why is Ryuji 2 points better?  (Alternatively, why is he only 2 points better Yusuke sux!?) 

It basically comes down to power spikes at the wrong part of the game.  Yusuke, on paper, might actually be a little better than Ryuji for Palaces 5 / 6 / most of 7 IMO, at least if you notice that you can itemize a +5 Strength sword for him which is kinda cool.  But…  that's the easy part of the game, and it's not really true in reality, because Confidant bonuses are so potent.  Specifically, Ryuji has an argument to be a 7/10 for one reason: he is the quickest Confidant you get access to, he builds quickly, and he's usually available (unlike Ann who is busy doing modelling or something).  You can have Endure on him for Madarame, which is a cool safety net, and he should be L10'd for Palace 3 and beyond (alas for cool Mr. Pirate).  In a game with randoms with as badass offense as P5, making sure that you always have *someone* in your party who has the Guard + Endure combo to save Joker is the equivalent of putting your pants on before walking outside.  (Also part of why Palace 1 & 2 can be so brutal.)  That person is likely Ryuji, for Palaces 3-4 at least.  And even for the later Palaces…  Yusuke Confindant L6 requires a Proficiency 4 stat check when Proficiency is actually one of the trickier stats to build.  If you really hard-charge it you might L10 him for Palace 6, although Palace 7 was when I max'd him.  With these characters so similar, what's the point in using the character who doesn't have some extra free resistances and an auto-life and also can help stop a reset due to unlucky ID on Joker or the like?  Anyway, when endgame rolls around, Matarukaja (for all that Ryuji gets this CRAZY LATE) is generally better than Masukukaja (but masuku at least is available earlier!), so Yusuke is back to being a little worse.  He's still fine, and has some nice synergy with Haru, just a bit suboptimal.

--
Ann, well.  She's your best damage mage, and Tarunda is a game-breaking spell.  That is one amazing damage debuff.  Dormina is situationally great too, and the only reason it didn't see more play for me was because MagicFanatic gave me the tip on which early Persona had Pulipna + Confuse Boost for Joker, and Confuse is kinda like Sleep if you had to use Psi for tech damage, but more importantly, it didn't wear off on getting thwacked.  (And also made you mad cash.)  While I generally prefer MT healing, strong ST healing certainly has a place too.  While Ann is basically always a solid addition to a team, she does have questionable durability, and Madarame makes her look foolish.  Joker is also a backup source of Tarunda.  She's good, but not invaluable, basically. 

--
Makoto…  yeah, non-Joker MVP.  There is almost no reason not to have her in your party the entire rest of the game upon join.  She's a fast, tanky healer with decent damage and lots of SP.  Why wouldn't you have her in your party at all times?  Morgana can spam MT healing too, but is way more likely to die.  Sign me up.  By Palace 6, gets Marakukaja as well for making boss's lives suck even more.  Even her status healing is decent; good ways to lose include "mass unlucky Brainwash" off a Mind Slice or the like, and hey, MT healing of the ailments you most don't want to have stick.  If she didn't have any damage, merely the tanky healing would earn her slot; the fact that she's just fine at going aggro makes her even better.  (Also, if you grind enough money, she gets to be totally stupid in the final dungeon with Sabzios & Judge of the Dead.  That's just a bonus, though.).

Slightly longer version: In general, I'm pretty suspicious of Agility hype.  It doesn't really matter vs. bosses.  And for randoms, per above, either you're ambushing the enemy and all going first (and want raw offense / element variety), or you're getting ambushed and all going last (and want raw HP / Endurance + Armor / Endure / an upgraded confidant Persona with more resistances & an Evade Weakness skill).  There is one exception, though: I want to have a fast *healer* who is also moderately tanky.  Ways you can lose include "a fast enemy you ambush but don't kill survives your round of attacks, deals MT 2HKO damage, then he goes again quickly in round 2 and MT 2HKOs again, or kills Joker somehow."  So you want someone who gets that turn in quickly on round 2 to undo the damage, and didn't die, say, because of Defense Master.  Hmm…  yeah that's Makoto innit.

She doesn't really have any weaknesses and has very notable strengths.

--
Haru is an oddball.  She's like a reverse Yusuke; she has some parts of the game where she's bad (Palace 6), but they're the parts that don't matter, and she blooms to be a very solid teammate for Palace 7 & the final dungeon.  Anyway, she has the same problem as Yusuke as being inherently slow to get her Confidant level off to the races with.  Palace 5 is rigged to be a bit friendly to her (lots of Psi-weak enemies), though, and you can max it by Palace 7, though, so it's actually not that big a deal.  Anyway, I'm not in general a fan of Haru's utility; Tetra/Makara-Karns, aside from not being very fun, can be replicated off the reasonably available Physical & Magic Ointments as items.  Amrita Shower is good, but less good than it "should" be because Haru goes last in boss fights regardless of her AGL.  Fast Heal is also amusing.

Anyway, Haru is, deceptively, actually an equal-or-better slugger than the bros. thanks to her Gun damage up passives.  Triple Down is a hell of a skill, some of the best DPS in the game, and she -starts- with it, and she likes working with Morgana or Yusuke to help deal with the accuracy issues.  Huge damage that's MT?  Yes please.  One-Shot Kill is also perfectly legit, and her magic game is more respectable than the bros lategame if you want to conserve HP.  Also, perversely enough because of her lack of utility - she's largely gonna be throwing damage the whole time - she's a great candidate for the mighty Roland Medal in the final 2 dungeons, since she can make use of all of its stats (she wants strength, magic, accuracy, AND durability) and won't be spending half her turns healing or buffing like, say, Makoto would.

Also, I dunno how much hype Confidant abilities should get, but Haru surely has the most potent one of the PCs in her strangely uber gardening.  Carrotpremacy, gooood luck doing the Palace 7 boss without some!

--
Morgana…  Morgana, Morgana.  What is that HP score.  In a vacuum, Morgana compares poorly with his competition.  Less durable than Makoto, less damaging & gets spell upgrades & Boosts later than Ann, and I don't care about the decent speed.  And healing is useful, great even!  Just having it on the frailest member means that when things go wrong, they go south fast.  So yeah.  Randoms LVP, doesn't bring the offense for you-ambush-them nor the defense for they-ambush-you.  Go sit in the backlines and be a heal battery from the menu.

But wait, it's worse than the vacuum.  Morgana's Confidant level is plot-tied, which means "slower than hard-charging it."  He's not getting Endure for awhile, and only gets Mercurius for the final dungeon.  And the person/cat who MOST needs Endure is the frailest member!  Ugh.

Somehow, Morgana recovers from a 2/10 or 3/10 with a few key uses.  He's very, very good against Madarame, where he'll spam Media every turn, and Makoto doesn't exist yet.  If you're having trouble with Kamoshida, you can potentially even get Morg to L11 for Media in that fight, which will make it much more winnable.  He is weirdly very good against the Palace 4 boss as well, which throws resisted-Wind, MT Dizzy infliction, and MT attacks, all of which Morgana is good against.  And finally, sometimes you might just want THREE sources of MT healing, and Morgana's there for that.  Solid luck means he's okay against certain status-slingers as well (e.g. the final dungeon 2x Kali formations that spam Tentarafoo at you off great durability).  So yeah.  The cat occasionally has his day, at least.

--
Crow, uh.  He's in Palace 6, which despite its totally awesome music, is indisputably the easiest dungeon in the game - the minibosses all die in 2-3 turns, and some of them even in a single turn, and the Palace boss only has a single action and single part.  That said, he's okay I guess?  Nothing WRONG with him, just no real tricks other than damage & more damage.  Attack Master is competing with the fact you likely just got Auto-Matarukaja on Joker if you were doing the Strength quests, and even without Auto-Mataru, Joker simply hitting randoms' elemental weaknesses and using an All-Out Attack generally works fine this dungeon.  So kinda difficult to care too much one way or the other.  Curse is a rarely hit weakness, I guess?!  It's something.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 04:41:45 AM by SnowFire »

Random Consonant

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2017, 04:33:07 AM »
Nihon Falcom Presents Persona 4Trails of Cold Steel 1:
Fighters > Mages!  In a Trails game!  What a time to be.  (Balanced uh is not very good for the most part.)

Rean: Well he's always around, has the right stats for this game (even has a useable ATS stat if he has to care), plays the delay game well enough (which chumps most bosses), and the orbment locks don't offend either.  He's not -that- heavy a hitter and S in one physical type is probably worse for unbalancing than two As (maybe an A and a B as well) but no one gets everything.  8/10.

Gaius: Tanky, but there's not really a lot of point in a char who specializes in non-proactive durability, especially in a Trails game, which is basically where he's at until he hits a Lv4 link with someone (and even then it's kind of limited).  The crafts don't offend and the speed is at least ok, but uh he has the worst field study availability of anyone not named Crow or Millium, which doesn't really help his case so he's probably the second-worst of the pure fighters. 5.5/10.

Elliot: Pure mage... in a game where crafts actually do respectable enough damage to random enemies and run off a friendlier resource to maintain (and power vs. versatility is actually a choice you have to make with mage orbment setups too).  This isn't really great, especially considering ATS-based crafts/s-crafts run (apparently) off similar mults to physical ones, yet check a notably lower stat.  Oops.  He can do an okay job of keeping the party on its feet with his crafts but he doesn't get the noted good and cool Lichtkries-esque bailout option Kloe/Elie did.  Still, there are times where pure mages do have their moments, and if nothing else he has scan.  5/10.

Machias: Uh.  Those aren't really good stats for anything, really, especially running off one of the lowest speed stats in the game.  Craft focus is a bit confused too, but at least he gets petrify eventually?!  Burst Drive is dumb like every other GT Quick Trails games keep handing to people but that's ganed at like Lv57 which is preeeetty close to the end of the game.  3/10.

ALISA R, AGENT OF MYSTERY: Tries to do that mage with a passable physical thing Schera tried to do... in what is probably the worst game to attempt it.  Offensive crafts are... to put it bluntly, shit (two bad physical crafts and an ATS-based S-Craft), but at least Heavenly Gift or whatever is kind of cool, and she at least has one offensive stat to use, unlike Machias.  4/10.

Laura: Probably the best non-Rean PC.  Slow but hits like a train, starts with an S-Craft at a point where no one else has one, still hits harder than Rean's once he gets his, oh and it actually upgrades before the final dungeon too (so does Alisa's but uh Alisa's is bad).  Has very little outside of hitting things but for a one-dimensional PC she occupies a fine dimension.  7/10.

Jusis: Well he plays the red mage well enough and Noble Command is cool once he gets it.  Not really an offensive powerhouse but making everyone hit harder (and faster) is worth a buck fifty.  6.5/10.

Fie: Speed!  Decent strength!  Kind of unfortunate durability and really unimpressive normal crafts before Scud Ripper comes along, and while she's not -quite- as one-dimensional as Laura she's pretty close, though at least like Laura she starts with her S-Craft.  6/10.

Emma: Pure mage #2.  Better EP/ATS than Elliot but worse crafts (and is the last person to get an S-Craft as well... for all that it kind of sucks) and slightly worse speed too.  As is I think I'd consider Elliot the better one in this game, though Emma probably has the superior orbment locks.  4.5/10.

Millium: Well that's a full MT S-Craft running off of Laura-level STR alright.  Past that uh high-defense character with game-worst HP doesn't really work and she's not really doing much that Laura hasn't been doing since C1.  3.5/10.

Crow: Has like all the stats, we should've seen it coming, basically a better Jusis except for the part where he lacks Noble Command and has the worst availability by far.  5.5/10.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 04:37:57 AM by Random Consonant »

Random Consonant

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2017, 07:39:29 PM »
Pro Social Commentary Simulator 2017 aka Persona 5:

Akira/Joker: Him vs. Yu is kind of hard to assess fairly, on the one hand he doesn't have the same growing pains as Yu does early and being able to hit elements you don't get access otherwise for basically forever (and even then you only have someone else who can hit Bless/Curse for one dungeon) is a big deal (as is being your sole source of Rakunda forever), but on the other hand he doesn't quite rise to the same level of bullshit Yu does (sup lolshitsune being last dungeon only, also the walling isn't nearly as comprehensive) even with the ability to screw the rules by having money and also doesn't really have any absurd midgame power spikes (hey remember Black Frost in P4 and how you could fuse it at like Lv32?  Good times.)  What score did I give Yu, 9/10?  *checks* Yeah 9/10 works for Joker.

Morgana/Mona: You'd think being a dedicated healing battery in a game like this would net you at least an average score, but man is Mona willing to prove you wrong.  The Yukari mold of sporting the worst durability in the game by a notable margin was suspect enough in P3 which didn't really punish that, and P5 has fewer qualms about throwing nasty shit at you.  Me Patra is cute but what it cures is either not common enough or not severe enough to bother keeping it around.  I pretty much replaced him with some emergency MT healing items from the clinic for the Palace 2 boss and didn't really care (don't kid yourself, the real danger there is eating focus fire and multiple knockdowns, Media doesn't help much with that, especially in a fight where everyone except Joker has a weakness for the boss to hit) and only really took him off the bench for a brief stint towards the end of infiltrating Palace 3 where you want wind damage.  Add Makoto doing his job better and a plot-tied social link confidant that doesn't get maxed until -the day before the last dungeon- and we have our clear LVP (not counting the temp).  3/10.

Ryuji/Skull: Rather similar to Chie except for the part where he takes Kanji's stat spread. P5 is a kinder game to this sort of character than P3/4 were, both in the sense of SP being more of an issue (lower SP pools in general, no sweet fox selling magic leefs for the price of all yo yens and having to make do with SP Adhesives in their stead which isn't nearly as good) so the in-a-vacuum cost efficiency of physical skills is an actual consideration (instead of a lie people tell themselves to make them feel better about the fact that they're using Junpei or Kanji) and the game not really punishing party switching like P3/4 did.  And hey, it actually does pay off somewhat in places like, y'know, the Palace 2 boss where MT physical damage is something you really want and he gets it before Yusuke does.  Then he kind of slumps for a while, partly due to being kind of a whiff machine, partly due to not really having much else -aside- from MT physical damage which Makoto and Yusuke -also- have while having fewer issues at that point.  Then he picks up Power Charge/Matarukaja and starts being worth using again, and while I never did get God's Hand, Megaton Raid is still pretty acceptable.  5.5/10.

Ann/Panther: Oh hey it's Mitsuru 2.0.  Fire here is sketchier than I recall Ice being in P3, but hey, Tarunda is never bad (and just because you can have Joker do something instead doesn't mean you necessarily -want to-, the flipside to him being versatile as fuck means his own turns are that much more valueable after all), reasonably accurate turn denial status in a game like this is welcome (although again, Joker can do this better if you want), and hey some spot healing doesn't go amiss either.  Getting better offensive spells faster than any other non-Joker PC is worth points too, and once Mind Charge Concentrate comes along the numbers are simply glorious (and unlike with Ryuji, I did manage to get Blazing Hell before the end).  Of course on the flipside as with Mitsuru going more or less all in on a single element as Ann does tends to leave her in a position of not doing much when she gets walled (and let's face it, while I ragged on Mona some for Goldmember, that fight is honestly Ann's worst performance in all likelyhood), but them's the breaks.  7/10.

Yusuke/Fox/Inari: The other dedicated physical dude, takes the lead from Ryuji once he hits Lv18 and gets MT physical damage (which might not happen for Goldmember, but if it does, ^_^) but he has a sketchier weakness and Sukukaja and Counter are not particularly great addons either.  Mind Slice is pretty cool for randombusting though, and he does have better strength than Ryuji.  Just... he never really improves and while this isn't particularly noticeable when Ryuji is in his slump, he does eventually pull out of it which leaves Inari with uh not much.  So yeah.  4.5/10.

Makoto/Queen: Obvious non-Joker MVP, gets pretty much everything you'd want.  Energy Shower is the status cure you want for much of the game since the statuses they remove are so bad, MT healing eventually, Marakukaja eventually, Nuclear is a decent element and Flash Bomb is at least relevent in the midgame, good stats all around save for luck (and even then she's still better than Inari there by like a point, good job there), Psychic isn't a terribly relevent weakness for the most part.  Even comes in overleveled, at least if you put off doing Mementos things until July like I did.  Just... does pretty much everything right.  8/10.

Haru/Noir: Oddly competent despite the vague statistical suck, at least so far as randombusting is concerned.  Psychic is a pretty good element to have and -competent gun damage- as backup means there's close to nothing that actually walls her (like... IIRC it's just Kaiwans in Palace 5 which get nuked by Makoto anyways, who cares) and One-Shot Kill in particular is brutal, since midbosses can be crit and even lategame randoms sometimes have enough HP (and no weaknesses) where gambling on its crit rate is meaningful.  Her other stuff is cute but you kind of don't really care about it -that much-, since it's either really expensive or someone else does it just as well (I mean, how often are you going to need to cure multiple kinds of status in this game, which of course begs the question of why I ditched Triple Down instead of Amrita Drop/Shower).  Weakness doesn't come up a lot either, which is nice especially on someone vaguely undurable.  On the flipside she's not really good against bosses and her confident is uh probably the last thing you'll max out on your own, although the former issue doesn't matter too much in this game.  6/10.

Crow: Well he's really versatile on offense, which is rare for a non-wildcard PC in these games... granted it's all ST except for Megidola, which kind of bites, and he has no boosts, which also bites.  Auto-Tarukaja Attack Master is a decent perk at least.  Looking at his skillset he wouldn't really be much good if he stayed, but he's not totally incompetent when he's around and if nothing else the game avoids the whole EXP thief in a game that punishes you for switching party members as is that Shinjiro had in P3.  3/10.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 02:25:15 AM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2017, 01:54:12 PM »
Since Random finished it up recently...  I made a post on Serenes around the time I first finished SoV, and I'm mostly finished my replay now, so FE Echoes: Shadows of Valentia rankings.

As a random comment, in most FEs, favoritism can largely be ignored in the rankings, since it effects characters mostly equally, barring problems like really low stat caps that can't be fixed with stat-boosters or levels.  That's a lot less true in Echoes.  There are some characters that you generally fast promote with it being really pointless to hard-grind them, and that additionally stat-boosters don't really help much due to having said stat boost erased by the next class-up anyway.  Then there are other characters with comparatively low stat caps for their promotions (compared to their growths, at least), and they absolutely love any favortism shown their way, and will benefit from it.  Boey is a classic example; Sage minimums are absolute garbage, which perversely means you can stat fountain him without fear.  To a lesser extent, this applies to the Lords as well.  (I certainly showered Celica & Alm with money for fancy weapons and stat boosts.)

Also, per Elf commentary, mages are really good in Echoes!  Even mages with "bad" builds (e.g. Luthier, Boey to some extent) are pretty awesome. 

Celica's team:

9/10: Genny, Celica

8/10: Mae

7/10: Boey, Sonya, Catria, Palla, Est

6/10: Saber, Deen, Leon

5/10: Kamui, Jesse, Sage/Bow Knight Atlas, Conrad

3/10: Valbar, Nomah, GK/DF Atlas (?)

2/10: Baron Atlas (?)

 
Alm's team:

9/10: Alm

8/10: Delthea

7/10: Saint Faye, Tatiana

6/10: Silque, Most Kliffs, Luthier, Clair

5/10: Lukas, Forsythe, Mathilda, Zeke, Most Grays, Most Tobins, Most Fayes

4/10: Python, Mycen

3/10: Clive

--

Genny gets Invoke sooner than Alm's Saints and hers is the best, and it can cheese the entire game if you want, up to and including the final boss & the aftergame labryinth.  (Her summons sucking is good, they draw the AI better and won't steal your kills.)  She does have a weakness in that she's killable by archers & gargoyles and the like so requires caution, but Invoke & Physic are amazing, and Expel is good.  Celica is a great mage, and if you want to invest a bunch of gold, can be a great fighter too, although she is more killable than Alm.  Definitely more of an 8.5, but most players will probably sanely throw some stat boosters at her anyway to make her more of a 9 anyway.

Mae is a great mage but is very frail and dies to surprise Gargoyle strike or mispositioning.

Boey & Sonya are worse mages than Mae (slower vs. joins later with a bad start) but "meh mage" is still pretty good when mages are amazing.  There's a speed fountain right at the start for Boey too if you really care.  The Pegasus trio are solid what with all the terrors they get to kill in C4.  Palla has occasional speed woes, Est is much better with a small bit of catch-up grind time, and Catria could use a little more Attack, but it's all good.

Saber & Deen have the best stats / build of the Mercs/DFs, I feel.  Kamui has a mere 2 Res and Jesse has some Est-esque catch-up issues without that much to show for it.  Leon is not very good on paper, but holy crap does Celica's route design favor archers - lots of mages & cantors you want to safely ping from a distance, lots of Gargoyles, and some very deadly enemy DFs in C4 you want to hit with ranged physicals.

Conrad is good if caught up (tanky, resistant GK!) but joins really late and is a bit behind in levels even on my Blitzkrieg LTC attempt that featured very little grinding (it'll be worse otherwise!).   He's fine, but it's a bit of a "but why" problem.  Archery Atlas deals with his low speed by steering far clear of the front line and using murderously powerful Curved Shots / Heavy Draws off his great Str.  Magic Atlas deals with his low skill by using spells which don't care about it and even getting +10 Hit for his Sagittae by the time he hits Sage, for all that you have a lot of mage options Celica route, especially if you recruited Sonya.

Valbar tanks Grieth and sometimes holds the line against random terrors, but is basically dead weight in C4.  Nomah is a backline healer, which is useful, but shouldn't really be in combat ever.  Maybe the occasional long-range Sagittae.  GK / DF Atlas needs to go to the front line without good speed (GK) or Def (DF), so seems a large chance of getting horribly stabbed.  Baron Atlas is another Valbar, why would you want that.

--

Alm is just a tanky all-arounder who can front-line reasonably safely.  Then you get the Royal Sword and learn Double Lion, and all hell breaks loose.

Delthea has a bit of a shaky start if you don't go grind her from L3; you'd have to play very carefully with her in the first three maps and kill-feed her a bit if not (but grinding her even a little is very, very fast - I did it to L5/6 even in my current Blitzkrieg run).  She also theoretically has a weakness of being very 2-range focused, missing out on the 3-range spells.  Then you get the Mage Ring from Nuibaba and it's all over.  Fixes her "problem" perfectly, and she's now a speedy, deadly artillery piece that blows up everything.

Saint Faye has Rescue which allows for some really cheaty strats, and has an actual Def stat if you want to do some Nos tanking stratz (unlike every other Saint).  Also has Physic.  Tatiana has Physic and has an actual Spd stat if you want to kill some stuff (unlike other Saints).  Also has Fortify which is totally a fair spell yes.

Silque's Warp is pretty conditional, but is occasionally super-useful at infiltrating the likes of Nuibaba's Palace or the Parapets in Rudolf's map.  Luthier is a bad mage but a mage, and hey, Support bonus for Delthea.  Clair is bad at killing stuff (so wouldn't want to run Javelin even if it was available on Alm path), but there's enough Terrors and weird distraction plays she can pull on summoned units that makes her still good.  Kliff is the fast villager so he usually turns out the best no matter where you stick him.

Lukas & Forsythe are helped by Alm's map design featuring a lot of "here come a bunch of cavalry / armors" with the sole mage off to the side.  Mathilda eventually gets very good, but she's a melee glass cannon while a Paladin - charges in and murders someone horribly then dies due to picking HP & Def as her weakness as an L1 Paladin.  GK promotion will eventually fix this if you tough it out though.  Zeke is a late-joiner but is basically ready to go.  The other villagers in random classes are all serviceable.  Notably, your villagers are your only source of Mercs in Alm route, and you get a Lightning Sword dropped in your lap early, so pick a volunteer to wield the darn thing.

Python's fine because sometimes you just need an archer dang it due to only being able to cram so many people in the chokepoint, but I'd probably rather have Archer Tobin or Archer Grey than him.  Mycen is uh there if you got Mathilda / Zeke killed?  Never used him, since he joins so late. 

Clive is sort of okay on join, and can run a Ridersbane to deal with all the enemy cavalry, but falls off hard.  Inaccurate with bad Spd & Res is asking for trouble; the okay Def only goes so far if you get doubled.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 01:58:12 PM by SnowFire »