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Author Topic: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition  (Read 21136 times)

Random Consonant

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2020, 07:43:55 PM »
Hustle Dance is something you have the skill points for at Lv22-23 at earliest, that's definitely more than one extra boss fight considering Rab doesn't pick up Multiheal until Lv30!  This was spider, squid, and Dora-in-Gray for me (which are some of the hardest Act 1 bosses and the latter of the three is easily the hardest Act 1 boss in my experience thanks to tripleacting and having a plethora of stuff you really don't want to be hit by), and it's a bit better than "roughly as good" at that point since it's easier to buff Sylvando's Charm than Rab's MMe (later on it does become that though).  And you generally want to be using both Sap and Oomph in boss fights anyways and bosses do at least tend resist the former a somewhat unfortunate bit in my experience (and as Snowfire notes, multiacting causes it to wear off faster anyways).  Sobering Slap also gets a bunch of more annoying statuses (although Rab does at least get confusion curing) and while I'm generally not going to hype non-proactive durability too much, the extra HP does mean he's less likely to be critted out of existance by things, which comes up annoyingly frequently.  And DQ11's randoms can be quite nasty even with good sweeping so having all that is a pretty good security measure regardless despite the lack of revival.  (Sylvando also makes Erik's knife plan a bit easier due to being able to help set it up himself if you insist on that but I'm not giving this much credit myself, as I tended to find him too busy for that.)

Also disagree on Luminary having the best Act 1 offense on bosses, greatswords look that way on paper due to beating out pretty much everything else by a not-especially close margin but Multithrust worked out a bit better for me in practice (the attack gap doesn't really make up for Multithrust's superior multiplier even before potential crit hype until Unbridled Blade/Sword Dance, the former being a bit of an ask that early considering it demands laser focus that doesn't leave you with room for much else (and also costs 16 MP which is definitely a non-trivial expenditure whereas Multithrust only ends up eating 6-9 in practice unless you don't have that ribbon equipped for whatever reason) and the latter is strictly Act 2) and Act 1 is when he's most prone to spending quality time on the floor relative to Jade.  Once he can afford the skill points for Sword Dance he takes the lead and never lets go outside of Erik setups, but that's still a non-trivial investment.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 09:44:18 PM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2020, 11:16:47 PM »
Re Hustle Dance vs Multiheal: I definitely don't think Multiheal really costs much more in practice. Yeah, it's 2.67x the MP cost on paper, but Rab has somewhere around 2-2.5x the MP, so it almost balances, and entirely balances when you consider that Oomphle is costing just as much as Hustle Dance while everything else Rab does costs a fraction of Multiheal. When I used both throughout boss fights (definitely a thing I did, so to emphasize I'm not really attacking Sylv's boss performance here!), Rab was consistently the last person I needed to worry about the MP of. In the interest of full disclosure I definitely used Hustle Dance more than Multiheal, but that's less about the relative merits of each, and more that Rab has more things he can do if I'm choosing one of them to heal and the other to do something else.

As far as availability, well, I definitely had Multiheal for Dora, who I also found quite easy... though based on Snowfire's comments, she was nerfed for the Switch version? I dunno. All I know is she had serious trouble doing damage to me, even her desperate only managed like 140. Though I definitely agree with squid hype and that is one place where Sylvando is better.

Re Sap: Yeah, I think Sap vs. Oomphle have their tradeoffs as you note, and you'll note I didn't call it strictly better than Oomphle. Oomph, though? Yeah it's more or less strictly better than that. Oomph just doesn't add nearly as much damage.

Re Act 1 boss-killer damage: I'm not sure how quickly you can get Multithrust (especially assuming you also want Vacuum Smash for randoms), but there was a decent chunk of Act 1 before Jade got Multithrust for me, so Luminary's way ahead when he's only competing with Hip Drop / Thunder Thrust. Agreed that Multithrust does tend to do more once you get it. Of course she then promptly decides to leave for a while so Luminary gets another set of early Act 2 bosses where he's the boss-killer again.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 11:19:55 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Random Consonant

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2020, 01:39:49 AM »
Re: Hustle Dance vs. Multiheal, it's not just cost (which I agree is roughly relatively equal when one considers their MP pools before the Supplicant accessory shows up, and you might want to stick that on someone else anyways for all that I think Sylv wants it the most, it's a fair point that his biggest concern is MP), it's that there's a window where it's actually the stronger healing move due to scaling.  Also Oomphle is 8 MP to Hustle Dance's 12 so I'd probably dispute that it entirely balances anyways?  Although I don't know why I'm going off on this, you use both anyways because having them frees up the other person do to what (Oomphle/Sap/Zing Stick/Sobering Slap) is needed more anyways and in this scenario I do tend to favor the one who's less likely to be dead when things go wrong.

Dora's desperate attack was doing a bit over 180 to me!  Maybe it's version differences or maybe it's difficulty settings or both, I didn't play the Switch version.  In any event being able to survive that particular bit of attention + followup is a big deal.

Oomph doesn't add nearly as much damage, but it also doesn't miss or wear off as quickly, which is kind of a big deal considering that Sap only seems to stick on some bosses about 50-60% of the time early on, so I'm pretty unconvinced that Sap is strictly better since at least Oomph is doing something before it gets up to two stacks and actually has some application in randoms anyways.

Getting Multithrust is a 47 skill point investment which I think Jade even has on join?  It's pretty low-hanging, cheaper to get than Unbridled Blade, and she does start with slightly more SP than other PCs.  It's not like Jade's ever a great PC for randosmashing so it does make more sense to prioritize that over grabbing Vacuum Smash.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2021, 07:59:12 PM »
Time to go old-school.

Fire Emblem 4: gen 1

Not considering anyone's value as a potential parent in these scores. Also not giving too much value for starting inventory since it's not THAT hard to move around, sorry Ayra/Finn. I am assuming a knowledgeable player (even though FE4 has some rather bullshit secrets if you're not using a guide, hello brave axe / Followup Ring).

Sigurd: 10/10. Top five character in the series, probably, and the best protagonist without much question IMO. Joins super strong: best mobility, best speed, great power and durability. Gets a Silver Sword in the Prologue! Can use javelins. Eventually other people start almost catching up and then he gets a legendary weapon, making him one of the only people can tangle well with certain threats of the final chapter.

Noish: 3/10. With as broken as horses are in this game, it's surprising that it has possibly the weakest Christmas Cavs in the series (it's them or Kyle/Forde). Noish can't double and none of his stats are great so he has bad offence and struggles to find a niche. Being stuck at B means there's a good chance he gets nothing better than a steel sword. He's pretty solid if you give him the Followup Ring but that's a hard sell.

Alec: 5/10. Noish with slightly worse stats, but he can double. Doubling matters! That said his attack is a bit of a problem. Cav utility is nice. Again the B rank is unfortunate, and the Brave Sword (best B rank weapon by far) is a far too contested item to be worth much hype here.

Arden: 1/10. 5 move in this game is brutal. He's not even especially impressive even ignoring that because B in swords as your only weapon when you can't double means crappy power and no speed, great.

Quan: 7.5/10. The closest thing gen 1 has to a jeigan. He's still way worse than Sigurd (can't double!), but compared to everyone else, he has 9 move and great stats. Doesn't double but he hits so hard that he'll leave people easily killed by others, and hey sometimes he procs Adept and kills anyway. Also the tankiest PC (along with Sigurd) until Lex gets rolling.

Ethlyn: 8/10. By far the best healer until you get Physic (so half of part 1) since she can actually reach people to heal them promptly. That alone merits a good score. Offensively she doesn't kill people but she can take a hit or two, not that she needs to often with Canto.

Finn: 6/10. Cavalier with better stats than Alec generally, though the speed is a bit shaky due to lance weight. Getting him the Slim Lance (or keeping Brave on him) helps.

Lex: 7.5/10. Compared to Quan, he's a bit worse out of the gate, but then he gets the Brave Axe (which nobody else can use until Lachesis promotes), so he has better offence, and then Paragon rushes him to promotion and he just becomes your cool mobile tank dude. No doubling does limit his offence some even though high str brave goes a long way.

Azelle: 3.5/10. If you can stick with him he should become pretty good, since he gets a horse on promotion. But that's kinda tough to do: he's so fragile and so slow-moving, and lacks Canto, so it's hard to position him safely and get him the levels he needs. Fire's also very heavy, sadly, cutting into his doubling niche.

Midir: 5.5/10. Really wants to steal Jamke's Killer Bow. Like Alec and Finn he's a doubling cavalier with iffy stats. Compared to them, bow lock is bad, but does have better range and there's less competition for bows than swords or lances.

Aideen: 6/10. Mediocre but having a second healer is okay... then she gets Physic and Warp (due to being the only B rank staff user) and Sylvia exists to speed her up and she's pretty cool thereafter.

Dew: Thief/10. He serves a valuable niche but it feels closer to FE7 Merlinus than a normal Fire Emblem unit: he exists to get money and give it to people who need it, and since he doesn't cost a deployment slot you might as well use him. I'd sooner entirely go without anyone I rated 6 or below than him, so I guess you could use that as a score, but it feels weird.

Ayra: 6/10. Between good offensive stats and Astra and at least a brief stint with the Brave Sword she's gonna erase most things, and she dodges well, but she's infantry.

Jamke: 5.5/10. Clearly better stats than Midir and Adept help him delete things, but doesn't have the move. This is about how you need to balance horse vs. not.

Deirdre: 1.5/10. Uhhhh she can silence the Chapter 1 boss who is a jerk with his high-power siege tome and otherwise she is Azelle who can't double for one map. Great.

Holyn: 5/10. Ayra with a bit more bulk but worse offensive stats + Luna is worse than Astra + no brave sword for what that's worth. Midir vs. Jamke feels balanced, so does Alec vs. Holyn.

Lachesis: 8/10. In Chapter 2 she is Aideen with +1 move and Charm (+10 hit/avo within 3 tiles), but then she can't get the better staves. Then she promotes and holy hell she's Sigurd trading a divine weapon for staves. Benefits a fair bit from Paragon. Anyway, averaging Aideen and Sigurd's scores works.

Beowulf: 7/10. Wish I'd used him more. On paper his stats are better than those of Alec/Finn (he's basically Alec with +3 str and +1 def). But what distinguishes him further is that unlike the other cavs he actually gets an A in swords on promotion, and there are a lot of good A-rank swords (silver, the blades), so he should do significantly better on offence than them. That makes him pretty clearly the best cav after Lex.

Lewyn: 7/10. Oddball. On join he's the best mage but a bit shaky: good evade and pretty good offence with his stats / Adept / Critical but no Followup makes him unreliable. That said, he's a great candidate for the Followup Ring and that just makes his offence good, period, though still shaky durability and low move. But for 1.3 chapters he has Forseti, which lets him be an invincible murder machine, and Sylvia makes sure he'll reach things to do said murder.

Sylvia: 9/10. Dancing for four people is ridiculous action economy, and Canto ensures she'll be able to do so. Makes crazy good use of the Leg Ring, yes 9 move dancer please thanks. Enables so much flexibility and makes low-move characters much more usable. She's only very useful at the start, but an MVP candidate once she gets the Leg Ring.

Erinys: 7.5/10. Tough character to rate. Not super-awesome at base due to no A ranks until promotion (but at least she gets them then) and iffy str/def, but because she flies she benefits uniquely well from a lot of resources (stat boosts, brave weapons) since she'll make much more flexible use of them. But even if you don't favour her she's got pretty comparable stats to someone like Alec soooo...

Brigid: 6.5/10. As good as an infantry archer can be (assuming games without Close Counter). Deletes anything, reasonably durable, starts promoted so doesn't need much investment.

Tailtiu: 3/10. OHKO most things once she's taken a hit, at which point she's OHKO-bait to everything herself. But she only has 5 move and she's tough to protect and honestly this just isn't that special a niche.

Claude: 5/10. Once per game (maybe more if you get him a bunch of money) he can revive someone from the dead, that's cool. Otherwise he is Aideen but you already gave Aideen Warp/Physic and you're probably not going to move them over to him. Fortify's neat though.

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Reiska

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2021, 06:33:01 PM »
So while I never did get around to finishing DQ11 postgame and my time is being occupied by other stuff (like Octopath Traveller) I might as well throw this up since I don't think there's anything left to see that would change my assessment of the cast significantly.

This is all assessed with Super Strong Enemies enabled, since that's what I played.

Luminary - Honestly mediocre during Act 1, since none of his stats are particularly great (and there's a non-trivial stretch where he's less durable than Erik) and the greatsword plan and being the sole source of lightning damage (outside of specific weapons), while ensuring that he'll never be actually bad, only goes so far to make up with that.  Picks up a fair bit of steam in the second half, at which point he picks up Quadra Slash, which is fantastic (if expensive), along with actually having an actual amount of skill points to play with.  Still, pretty rough Act 1 performance counts for a fair amount and I have a hard time justifying higher than a 6/10 because of it.

Erik - OF COURSE considering that he's stuck with this shameful idiot for entirely too long I could be blaming the wrong thing here.  About the only thing Erik brings to the table early are an assortment of Pep Powers and a knife plan that relies on being able to status things since boomerangs are too low on attack to be good for much against randoms (and the accuracy and damage falloff are just injury to insult).  Gains a lot in Act 2 but he's the second-to-last PC to rejoin so loud shrug.  2/10.

Veronica - Pretty great against randoms and noted important spells Sap and Oomphle make her pretty great to bring bosses (although the latter doesn't exist much for her in Act 1 and she spends Act 2 kind of dead) despite the tragic durability.  7/10.

Serena - Probably has more shelf life in the active party than I'd ever respect Erik for during Act 1 since she at least has some shaky GT status to use but not much more since her competition for healer duty has much more reason to be used than her.  Pretty much fantastic once she rejoins in Act 2 but she's the last person to do so and the main game doesn't go on much longer than that.  It evens out to a roughly below-average score, I think.  4/10.

Sylvando - Contributes basically nothing on offense, but Hustle Dance/Sobering Slap/Oomph are great enough perks that you'd autoslot him in until Serena rejoins in Act 2 at minimum, and are probably enough to vault him into the MVP spot.  8/10.

Jade - Hello, one-dimensional beatstick.  Honestly not really that amazing at it, outside of Multithrust being a better boss tool and being somewhat less prone to being critted out of existance than the Luminary during Act 1.  The self-buffing in Act 2 is cute but that's pretty much all she gains and even then there's the bosses that pack dispel so I can't really care that much.  5.5/10.

Rab - Far more upside to having him along than Serena in Act 1 due to him having Sap/Zing Stick/non-fail offense in randoms (though dark spells are a bad meme) and being the first to rejoin in Act 2 matters quite a bit.  Pretty much benched once Serena rejoins, but by then he's done his job.  6.5/10.

Hendrick - Does the Sylvando thing of being a durable support except he offers more offense/durability than he does support.  This is uh not a winning trade in the slightest and he'd be a fair bit better if he actually had his postgame tools but he's at not hopeless on the latter since he does at least bring his (less-reliable) version of defense debuffing along with his try-to-keep-the-party-from-dying-to-noncrit-damage spells.  5.5/10.

Just throwing my hat in to say that I agree with most of this but wanted to debate a couple scores from my own experience on both PS4 (full) and Switch (partial).

First off, I disagree pretty strongly with Erik at 2/10 - it takes some beelining but it's absolutely possible to deploy Erik's damage-king combo for the last stretch of act 1 and have him completely trash a couple bosses there with it - 57 skill points is enough to pick up Half-Inch, Dodge Chance +2%, Agility +10, Agility +30, Deftness +10, Divide, Flame Slash, Attack Power While Wielding Swords +10, and Falcon Slash, and this can be achieved at level 25.  (This technically takes 67 skill points, which would be level 28, but Agility +30 is a lucky panel and permanently gives you 10 free skill points.)  Divide-Falcon Slash does absolutely gross damage and isn't nearly as RNG-dependent as trying to stick statuses and then land Victimiser or Persecutter, although I suspect the knife build can peak higher with the combination of good RNG and Sylvando applying the status.

All that said, he doesn't really do anything but damage, and the nature of his combo is still a bit unreliable - he's kind of like a DQ8 tension-nuke PC in that regard - so with that in mind plus his poor act 2 availability, I wouldn't give him more than around a 5.5/10 either.

My second personal point of contention is Serena/Rab - for me I always found Serena to be the more useful of the two healers, although they aren't really that far apart.  Serena only has fail offense if you build her with wands, and IMO the wand build is a trap for act 1/2 because MMe scales so weakly - I feel like she's better off in the spear tree for act 1, and the inherited whip tree for act 2, as both solve what I feel is her biggest weakness (damage output in randoms).

FWIW Rab was my LVP for acts 1 and 3 - in act 1 I was already very comfortable with using Serena and Sylvando for healing and didn't switch, and in act 3 I feel Serena's gains are just better than his, plus her MMe advantage starts to actually matter.  Can't dispute Rab's utility in act 2 just on the basis of availability though + Pearly Gates being pretty respectable offense.  And I say he was LVP but every PC in the cast saw use in the A3 final boss for me, so on the whole over the course of the whole game I think DQ11's PC balance is quite sublime.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2021, 05:06:37 AM »
Fire Emblem 4: gen 2

Mostly rating all the child characters assuming a optimum parenting (with some leeway because I'm not sure exactly what that is). The main exceptions being Lester/Lana who want different parents and I'm not sure how to score them as such. Tinni has some problems on this front too.

Seliph: 6.5/10. Definitely someone who gets better as the game goes on. At join he's a worse Ulster/Larcei. But once he promotes he gets a horse and is a cavalry dude with competent all-around stats. And then he gets Tyrfing which vaults him into having good damage and being a great magic tank. At all points he has an aura which grants him and nearby allies hit and avoid (Sigurd had this too, I forgot to mention it, god Sigurd is dumb) which is pretty neat.

Larcei: 6/10. Sword infantry with all its limitations but tends to have a great start anyway, since she can inherit any non-legendary sword and since she doesn't need Followup from dad she can get Paragon instead (the twins probably make the best use of Lex), or at worst something like Adept/Accost. Nice stats.

Ulster: 5.5/10. Larcei version "probably needs to buy a good sword" with a worse promotion (less speed/no Adept) but otherwise basically the same.

Lana: 7/10 with Claude as a father, 5/10 otherwise. Hello, 5 move staffbot. Getting Rescue/Fortify from day 1 would certainly help her, but otherwise she's Aideen, except facing a lot more competition from staff users with 6+ move.

Lester: Anywhere from 2.5/10 to 6.5/10? Can't really optimize him and his sister at the same time. Claude!Lester is awful, but Midir!Lester shows up rocking decent speed growth and a Brave Bow. (I personally got one somewhere in the middle for worth.)

Diarmud: 6/10. Assuming a Followup dad of course. Has a horse, Charm, and good strength. Certainly no shortage of people who can use A-rank swords in early gen 2, unlike gen 1! Speaking of which...

Oifey: 7.5/10. Basically established a subtrope synonymous with "good PC", for all that he's certainly less good than a few other people sometimes compared to him. Still, 9 move, A rank swords out of the bat, great stats for the time. Obvious MVP out of the gate. By the end of the game he's probably marginally below average, but who cares.

Julia: 5.5/10. So Nosferatu's actually pretty bangin', she can chew through swathes of enemies. Y'know if her 5 move ass can get there. She can also staffbot, basically as well as non-Claude Lana. Then she tears the final boss in half, that's pretty funny not gonna lie.

Fee: 7.5/10. See Erinys, she benefits a lot from flight. Unlike Erinys she'll likely have some extra natural advantages from dad (Paragon from Lex, or A swords from Chulainn, or skillz from Jamke/Lewyn, or super staff use from Claude). But of course gen 2 standards are also higher.

Arthur: 9.5/10. He's a lot worse with any dad besides Lewyn but good lord it's hard to argue that he makes the best use of that parentage. Joining in the first chapter with a 30-might +20 speed +40 evade tome is bonkers. Faces almost no competition for the Followup Ring too (outside unpromoted Leif maybe, blech). And then he gets a horse, probably around the time the second potential Forseti user joins the team period, so please enjoy your 9-move murdermachine dodgetank clowning everything until the last section of endgame. Being stuck at 5 move early is the only thing holding him back from 10/10 mateiral.

Johalvier: 3/10. What if Lex kinda sucked due to not having a horse, not having Paragon, and facing the much stiffer gen 2 competition? Oh yeah he'd be this guy. At least he almost no competition for a brave weapon and kinda has some bulk early.

Johan: Pass. I'm sure he's technically better than his brother due to horse but he also deprives you of Nosferatu unless you do some silly shenanigans so fuck that.

Shannan: 6/10. Prepromo Larcei with less good stats for his level (still solid enough), no cool inheritance possibilities... but has Balmung with its evade nonsense. It balances.

Patty: Thief/10. See Dew, no reason anything has changed. She can inherit some skills you won't care about.

Leif: 4/10. Uhhhh he turns out pretty good when he finally promotes, though due to no holy weapon he's still gonna be outclassed by the likes of Ares even then. Can also pick up decent staves too at that point, only reason I'm not convinced to just rate him super-low. Trash early, albeit usable trash (compared to someone like FE6 Sophia), but still trash.

Nanna: 7.5/10. Horse healer good. It's funny, her stats aren't much worse than Leif's after he promotes, and way better before. And y'know she also has a horse, Followup, and staves before she promotes, too. Oh and Charm. Yeah she's pretty solid.

Finn: 3/10. He's got a horse but otherwise is just... kinda bad now? Single digit speed with anything except a Slim Lance is no bueno, not like his other stats are great.

Ares: 8/10. Ares has solid all-around stats (speed is slightly shaky, but he can usually find a weapon that doubles), a horse, and Mystletainn, which makes him a great damage-dealer and even better magic tank. Unlike Seliph he has all these things from the moment he joins. And Adept/Critical with his best damage.

Lene: 9.5/10. FE4 dancer, now with possible access to the Leg Ring for her entire existence. Crazy useful.

Tinni: 3/10. "What if Tailtiu didn't have Thoron until promotion?" You'd have this mediocre unit. She can gain extra skills from her dad but bleh, think that only balances at best.

Faval: 4.5/10. I dunno, as far as infantry goes he's clearly worse than the swordies? Still a pretty good delete button but only player phase, and he's quite fragile until he promotes unlike the gen 1 archers, and obviously he competes with more holy weapons than them.

Ced: 6.5/10. Nice, competent staff user. 6 move, B rank, good stats generally. Can also combat somewhat but not stellar at it unless he has Lewyn as a dad which I'm not inclined to consider.

Coirpre: 3/10. uhhh did someone call for an extra staff user with 5 move and bad stats late in the game? I mean you might as well deploy him I guess...

Hannibal: 1.5/10. Unlike this guy. Better than Arden since at least he can use good weapons at base if you end up doing anything with him.

Altena: 6/10. Oh yay another flier. Gae Bolg hurts, as does a brave weapon off her stats. Mediocre speed (and needing promotion to get Followup, granted that's just 3 levels) is a negative, though.

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2021, 09:42:04 PM »
Bravely Default 2 Jobs

Not much rhyme or reason here, just going off memory here.

Freelancer: 6.5/10. The statline ain't too hot and the weapon ranks are um not great either (C across the board isn't as bad as it'd be in BD1, but still kinda bad). THIS SAID, you can actually bypass this during the earlygame with one of Monk's low-leve passives (more about this on their entry) and the utility on the skillset, both on passives and actual skills, has niche uses (mainly related to farming, so not sure how much it really weighs on me, since I hardly did any farming, though it also plays into status builds pre-Phantom, and THAT is actually big, since status hard-breaks BD2). Body Slam as a first capstone skill is also a good carry, but I'm not sure if it's running  a subjob just for it good. Post C4, the class gets a kick in the nuts, where Late Bloomer actually ramps up its stats something fierce and Freelancer becomes the first class to have its level caps lifted (also the only one given to you for free) and Mimic easily works its way into a billionfold of broken setups (it's a lot more wieldy than BD1 Mimic, which was made very awkward due to classic turn-based mechanics). The weapon affinities remain a problem forever, though, and rule of thumb you're not getting the skills to fix this without delving into asterisk portal fights. Does this mess work out to above average? I suppose, and I frankly may be underselling this job anyway. This is going to be a recurring theme, by the way: there are MANY ways to snap BD2  in half and many of them require similar amounts of effort while achieving satisfying, impressive-looking results in a wide variety of ways.

Black Mage: 3/10. Magic has issues in BD2, and Black Mage honestly has the absolute least to offer for magical setups. S in Staves is nice early and black magic is decent damage in the prologue, but even mid-C1 it starts showing its issues (very expensive and multitargetting it dampens its power -real- hard, so brave-bombing gets PROBLEMATIC). The MP regen passives in the early game do help with this a lot, but the biggest problem is that they're still not really that great at damage -anyway-, and the class is otherwise a dead zone for mage builds. You'll probably master this before other mage classes show up (mainly because BD2 really BLITZES your job growth in practice), but man, this class really has nothing to offer outside its low-end jagen mage stopgap. Not quite the worst class in the game, but it certainly makes a case.

White Mage: 8/10. The class got hit with a nerf bat from BD1 and it's still really, really good. Having a healer, while not as borderline mandatory as it was in BD1, is still obscenely good and Angelic Ward is a great class passive as usual. The defensive buffs are less potent and it has no offense at all (they yanked Aero and Holy from it), but it honestly doesn't hurt the class in practice much. Healing items being more accessible and more affordable lowers its value a bit, but it's still the best class for action economy in healing and, as a subjob, it now gets much more flexible synergies with tanking classes and whatnot. Simple, but very effective.

Vanguard: 7/10. The first dedicated physical class, it tries to dabble in a bunch of things between damage, utility and tanking, doing all of them competently enough but not being standout in any of them. Neo Cross Slash is very functional and actually pretty impressive for a while, though it being a capstone skill means you're spending most of your time in the class using its weaker counterpart. Debuffs being nerfed from BD1 also hurts it a bit, but it's still fine. Reaching job level 12 is a big benchmark, though, since its second specialty is -really- powerful, especially later in the game, and it can work as a substitute for setups like dualwielding or two-hands to save slots. Specializing in Axes is kind of a bummer, though the job's okay enough at spears and swords to work with anyway.

Monk: 4.5/10. It's very much a Jagen job: pretty good physical stats and early damage skills at a glance, Bare-handed Brawler is a great passive in the earlygame (since it lets you ignore the weapon slot and still deal competent damage, at times even better than armed fighters, while not having to worry nearly as much about equipment weight on the armor slots. It's a nice setup for flexibility until early C2!), there's some extra damage synergy and utility running in those skills... but they don't last nearly as long as a carry. Unarmed combat starts having pretty serious issues in the midgame (with both weapon power and accuracy becoming more of a factor) and the skills themselves don't keep up with their mults either. Monk's weapon affinities also have some problems (Only A being STAVES kinda hurts, since most rods have poor physical stats, emphasizing, obviously, magic or restoration). Good enough to carry into mastery when you get it, but unlikely to see any use later outside some very specific setups (most of which are frankly pretty whatever, I feel the magic threshold for offensive stats in the lategame hovers around the 490s-500s and there are many, MANY ways to achieve this with less caveats than Monk needs).

Bard: 8/10. Statline and affinities ain't too hot (sketchy offensive, best weapon being bows at a B, somewhat fragile... at least they're fast), but Singing is a great skillset whose utility changes considerably as the game goes on. Early on, singing has a mostly defensive bent, since the damage buffs take a while to show up and raw damage reduction matters more at the earlier parts of the game. Late, when those offensive buffs stack multiplicatively with stat buffs and can be piled up up to over triple damage from base, um yeah, they become staples of many blitzing setups, even working well with lower-level/speedrunning strats. Some status and even crowd control damage utility complete the package, and the turn parcelling skill is also a nice capstone. There's some worth in running the job as a main even though it's not a great carrier too, since its specialty passives are quite solid for its buffs and the class' special move is pretty good.

Beastmaster: 9/10. Frankly has a very legit argument for best class in the game. Until C5, Beastmaster just does everything you want before any class you get before it and often even better than classes you get after as long as you don't neglect capturing monsters (you don't even need to care much about WHICH monster as long as they're at roughly your power level because the monster abilities are scaled off higher than PC abilities as a rule of thumb). Oh, and the class has a passive that gives you a chance of automatically capturing enemies you kill. And it has one of the best passives in the game (Spearhead, which gives you initiative as long as you have a spear equipped and aren't ambushed by enemies. Oh, this also works on bosses and you have pretty much absolute control over whether you get ambushed or not). And it also has great passives for bursting power. And it has a decent statline. As for weaponry... A in Spears and Bows is not quite the dream, but an A on the best weapon type in the game (partly because of Spearhead!) and one of the best weapon types in the early-midgame certainly doesn't hurt. Its specialty 2 is also bananas, giving you stat bonuses based on how many monsters you have captured. Even if you stop capturing monsters period by the end of C4, if you were running the auto-capture skill, your Beastmaster will have bonkers stats. And when you think the class starts falling off (monsters don't get to cap break damage and their side utility falls off), you get the L13-15 skills, which have a fantastic DPS skill in Muzzling Maelstrom and Nature's Blessing - oh, and they still have all the stats. The only problem I can say the class has is that it initially looks a bit unfriendly and it doesn't start off game-breaking. Still, really damned good class that leads you into many possible ways to power for your physical builds to boot.

Thief: Godspeed Strike/10 7/10. Thief's in a weirdass place: the class isn't super enticing to stay in outside of speed (best weapon affinity is an A in Daggers, which is pretty whatever, durability is shoddy, attack isn't all that great) and its skillset isn't very good besides one skill. HOWEVER, that ONE skill just happens to be pretty much the strongest single-target physical move for about 80% of the game. Godspeed Strike is bananas, having a super high mult that scales ridiculously off speed (it may be affected by ATK as well, certainly seems to not scale off too poorly off bad speed) and repeating itself after a short delay. And Thief, along with Phantom, also happens to be the game's fastest job. Godspeed Strike is so good it actually merits running Thievery just for that - or even running the class just for that. It has some use for farming setups as well, but I frankly don't care much about that (and hell, stealing sucks -ass- without dedicated twinking)? This is just mainly a check of how good you see Godspeed Strike being, and I think this is fair enough as a balance.

Berserker: 7/10. On the one hand, Savagery is the best randomslaying skillset in the game (Crescent Moon and Level Slash control crowds like nothing else can in terms of resource economy for your physical fighters) with a few decent tools for bosses as well (defense debuffs, both Double Damage and Amped Strike). On the other hand, the class is not super fun to stay in (very slow, specializing in axes kinda sucks because the weapon is both very heavy and kinda inaccurate) and its passives, outside of Bloody-Minded (which I do -not- like because boosting Aim feels more effective and less costly than having all of your physical damage cost you 25% mHP a pop), do not work well without Savagery itself. This said, I kept both my fighters running Savagery all the way to the very endgame when dealing with grunts, that efficiency is just unparalled. Guess somewhere around the area of Godspeed Strike works.

Gambler: 2/10. eeeeeeew spending money to do stuff go away. While BD2's in-game economy is kinda wild, it's not so wild as to warrant a class that can make you drop money down the drain like Gambler does. To make matters worse, its first passive is complete bullshit, randomly yanking out money, XP or JP from the person in the job. The skillset itself has potential on paper, but everything being tied to either money spending or prohibitive BP costs just makes me toss the class away. It even has shoddy stats and affinities to boot! Raise it solely for its money-boosting and drop-boosting passives and run away otherwise. I actually thought as whether this was worse than Black Mage and listing all the ways I don't like it just made me go "... yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaah, fuck off".

Red Mage: 6.5/10. Offensive magic has issues in BD, but honestly Red Mage goes a loooooooooooong way to make it viable, though it's not the only venue to power mages have. The main problem with Red Mage is having awkward weapon affinities (A in Swords for your best is kinda awkward for a mage, though the game does have quite a few high-magic attack swords... at least B in staves means they're not actually TANKING magic stats by running them) and not actually very good at that magic stat itself, but they have considerably better weight allowance than most mages (it actually lets them run bows somewhat well, and bows have really high offensive stats in general to compensate being two-handed and super heavy) and decent speed, which helps make up for it. The skillset mixing up status options attached to damage (which can be emphasized further by mix-matching other elements from different mage classes and leans naturally into status builds - Red Mage even has no-strings attached access to some of the most powerful status procs in Sleep and Stop) and single-target healing isn't bad either and both its equippable passives are really good - in fact, Magic Critical is pretty key for your magic damage builds, since crit rate can be tweaked in so many ways. Revenge, on the other hand, just makes a great filler slot at worst and can create inane deathtanking bravebuilders at best. Then, it also hands you the first L4 spell you'll likely get in the game two full chapters you'll even dream of getting the second one and its second specialty doubles all the damage and magic-based buffing or healing your mage does for free. Pretty neat class and works well as the starting point for any advanced mage build. I'd rate Red Mage higher if I actually thought BD2 magic was better than it is (though it can actually be where the ultimate damage comes from, but it's pretty shenanigansy).

Ranger: 6.5/10. Iunno, this class feels like it should be so much worse to stay in than it is. Outside speed (which is good) and accuracy (which is -insane-), its statline is pure trash. Shoddy STR, bad durability, those really don't make for a compelling base carrier. THIS SAID, Ranger has some really powerful equippable passives (Counter-Savvy is nearly indispensable to have at least on your fighters, hard-neuters so many enemy counters so hard it ain't even funny. It's actually worth delving into the class with your MAGE CLASSES to pick it up if you're so inclined), good specialties and having an S in bows is hilarious in the early to midgame, since bows have such stacked base stats on both ends to the point you could actually make a RANGER a credible mage for a while. Thanks to all these piling up, along with good base crit, suddenly Ranger actually deals way more damage than you'd think it should and really clocks things up before the endgame. The accuracy also helps a lot, because enemies in BD2 have actual evade and missing moves in a brave-chain HURTS. Once you reach lategame, though, I feel like you just get a lot more options to do huge damage and Ranger stops standing out. I may be mistaken, though, bows still have insane bases by endgame and Ranger is the only class that gets S rank to put them to max potential... but the skillset being very one-dimensional and scaling kinda poorly into the endgame/aftergame hurts that... though they're one of the only classes to have straight access to paralysis, so they can have uses for status builds (albeit kinda edge case in practice, their stats do not lend well to status procs at base). On the other hand, dominating chapters 2 to 4 is really worth an accolade, that feels like the time where the game has the most bite to it (and some of the hardest maingame bosses are there!). Also, half a point for possibly underselling its lategame potential.

Shieldmaster: 5/10? This one's difficult to rate. On the one hand, Shieldmaster is obscenely, -obscenely- tanky and has quite a few proactive tanking tools at their disposal. On the other hand, it has absolutely miserable offense and also has problems turning enemy offense into straight damage as well. The speed is also a huge problem until late, especially when a huge part of the durability comes from equipping crazy heavy armor. Once Shieldmaster reaches mastery and can dedicate some of its passives to fix those speed problems to a degree, it actually comes together and can pair with other classes for some hilarious anti-damage and anti-BP combos, but the offense and non-tanking utility will always be a problem (also, offense is usually easier to twink for and really goes completely ballistic by the time you'd feel comfortable using mastered classes without worrying about some degree of JP spillover). Can pair somewhat with White Magic for a near-immortal healer, but I feel another class does the carrier tank job better.

Pictomancer: 7/10? I like this class. Decent magic stats, acceptable physical stats, fast, more potent debuffs than its Vanguard/Berserker counterparts and has them all stacked together, alongside having Daub and a special that applies it at perfect accuracy to all enemies along with an omnidebuff. Not very good for randoms, but it's quite a neat package for bosses and Pictomancer also pairs well with a bunch of other mixed setups. Sub-Job BP Saver is also a great ability that should be learned by anyone running Savagery or other BP-hungry setups (and those are pretty common!) in the midgame. The game-worst durability and shoddy weapon ranks are rather problematic, but their BIS being spears and rods works as a silver lining. Also pairs really well with Bard and their passives.

Salve-Maker: 8.5/10? I wanted to give it a 9/10 at first for Compounding being easily the easiest carrier for BD2's status hard-breaking builds, but that probably overrates the class. This said... well, the class statline doesn't have much offensive punch and its stats overall are pretty middling. Compounding is the very first skill on the skillset and it's probably the best thing by far in its set, so, outside of running Phantom/Salve-Maker, you actually don't get much out of it in terms of varied builds. THIS SAID, however, Compounding is just bonkers good, giving you really insane sustainability options for dirt cheap. Everything you'd actually want from the class in terms of healing and status is storebought and the fundamentals are very cheap to maintain as well. And, of course, the synergy between this and Phantom is just degenerate in more ways than one (like infinite MT Elixir spamming for the cost of 40 MP a pop. Like, seriously, what the freaking hell). On the other hand, Compounding isn't as potentially versatile as it was in BD1: you use it for resource control, healing and status. Granted, this is... probably enough.

Dragoon: 7/10? Iunno, the skillset itself kinda unimpressive, though somewhat versatile (has crowd control, Jump for its dedicated DPS, some element damage, MP draining... it just they don't have much -punch- off a cursory glance), but the class got stats (fast, high strength, decent durability - though that mdef base is oof, the HP and defense aren't bad). Good passives for crowd control as well, stuff like Full Force pairs well with both mages and skillsets like Savagery. Upon mastery, getting a free Dual Wield as long as you're equipping spears/swords (AKA the best physical weapon types in the game) and having respective S and A on those proficiencies also kinda slaps - and that is likely to be your earliest access to Dual Wield-like passives ever, along with always, always being an option if you're looking to save passive slots running off a capable statline. I also may be underselling Draconics to boot, you can do some SHENANIGANS with Jump parties from what I've seen on Youtube. Granted, there are just so, so many ways to power in BD2...

Spiritmaster: 8/10. The classic Spiritmaster/White Magic combo from BD1 doesn't function quite the same here, though it's still very good. Spiritmaster, though, just functions very unlike BD1's counterpart to begin with. Mainly, its idea is passively keeping your party up with wisps that can heal or revive or heal status or restore MP or, post-mastery, actually all of those at once just hovering around passively. The healing itself isn't SUPER potent, which means you probably want White Magic paired with it before mastery. This said, post-mastery and particularly post-JL cap breaks, the class becomes hilariously broken with wisps that passively restore BP and cast reraise. Oh, and Spiritmaster's passive also has a partial status immunity+guts-like effect that keeps you alive as long as your HP is 20% or above while wisps are around. So, you can play with many, many party-wide immortality setups with this class, though the dispel wisps can be a problem with a lot of offense-geared setups. Not one of my preferred anchors, but people like Snowfire will certainly sing praises to heaven regarding this class, since it enables low-offense, high-sustainability builds in a hilarious manner.

Swordmaster: 7/10? Comparing this and Dragoon, there are some pretty striking similarities: the skillset bases aren't great - Swordmaster in particular has bad options for the first six levels or so and, until getting built up, the basic physical builds are just not any good. On the other hand, Fluid Stance pairs very well with Shieldmaster's tanking game, allowing for ridiculous BP-draining combos, and Swordmaster gains some pretty good single-targetting builds. And there are always the stats: Swordmaster has very high attack and good speed, along with that S in Swords and Two Hands is one of the big equipment passives you will look for when weighing lategame offense builds. Mastery, though, really brings the class together - in particular, it's the only class that can access sub-jobs' specialty passives for no skill slot cost, and the only way to get the SECOND specialties without Bravebearer, which makes it quite a potent carrier, especially with Phantom's Dual Wield. It does feel less flexible than Dragoon until mastery, though, but then Two Hands is a really good passive to pass around. Same overall score works.

Oracle: 6.5/10. So, Oracle. This class is -painful- to stay in before mastery: awful stats, crap weapon affinities, the full monty. However, Divination is a great skillset that synergizes amazingly with its excellent first specialty passive (especially once you land Triple and Triplara) and can outright delete a surprising amount of fights with its elemental manipulation gimmick. Said gimmick also factors into a lot of offensive setups you can do and obviously gels amazingly with other mage setups. Once you master the class, its second passive turns Oracle into quite an interesting carrier, since it gives the stats and weapon affinities of your subclass to the main job, effectively erasing Oracle's big downfall and actually making it possibly an omnicarrier as well while lugging around Divination's kickass skillset, viable for both physical and magical builds. This said, the pre-mastery drudge is just too hard to ignore, so I figure it can't really go above the 6.5 mark, especially considering you're dealing with a bad mage class in C3 - AKA the worst time in the game to be a mage.

Phantom: 9/10. Oh boy, remember how Dark Knight in BD1 completely warped game balance by itself because it was just so BUSTED? Yeah, Phantom does something similar to BD2, but in a more layered manner. The class itself is kind of a double-edged sword - great offensive stats (Thief-level speed, has an S rank in daggers at a point where daggers start actually having power, actually good ATK), junky durability, trashy skillset outside the self-buff (which, in fairness, is actually good and works well for all kinds of offensive builds, but gets outshone soon after you get it!)... but then, you look at Phantom's passives. For starters, all three of Phantom's equippable passives are excellent: Critical Amp is amazing in a game where crit rate can be tweaked as high as BD2's, and it can be worked in both physical and magical setups (also working well with Phantom's kickass specialty 1, which raises crit rate of any attack hitting weakness by 50%). Rewarding Results is kinda niche in the sense it needs a status build to work, but in a game where status SMASHES its battles to hell, it's certainly kickass to get another turn every time you land a status! Then, there's Dual Wield: this or Two Hands is how you bust open BD2's ATK/MAG scores to play into the insanity that is its lategame/aftergame, and Dual Wield offers you a lot more flexibility in equipment tweaking than Two Hands does. Any offensive build worth its salt in BD2 should have a way to access Dual Wield or Two Hands, and obviously this is super big. However, it doesn't stop there: Oracle's mastery specialty, Results Guaranteed, completely breaks the game open, making any chance-based passive or attack have a guaranteed chance to work at an extra cost of 40 MP per proc. Landing debilitating status on the final boss? Sure, fam. Always proccing Revenge for ten billion BP surplus? Why not. Having Salve-Maker's passive where sometimes it doesn't spend the item ALWAYS WORK so you can spam items forever and ever? Of course! All you need to worry about is the MP upkeep, and in a game where MP flows in as freely as BD2 past the C2 mark, that's quite frankly trivial. Oracle makes pretty much one of the most dominating carrier jobs in the game for that alone and also gives incredible passives that work their way in most of the game's advanced builds. Only real problem with the class is having such a trashy base skillset and not doing much in-job for non-status mage builds (though those still want Critical Amp and Dual Wield anyway), but that hardly keeps it from being obscenely broken. It's obviously not as exciting before mastery, but frankly the stats and buffing do keep the bases afloat very well until its overwhelming power sets in.

Arcanist: 4.5/10. Oof. So, Arcanist has cast-best MAG, S in staves and high-powered elemental spells of many varieties, along with an equippable passive that regens MP and another one that raises magic damage by 20% (at the caveat of higher MP cost). Sounds good, right? Weeeeeeell... it has some PROBLEMS. First, its first passive makes multitarget damage not suffer unfocusing penalties, but also makes the user a target of the spells. Second, its multitarget spells also target the party. Third, its mastery passive improves magical damage once again, but gives all spells a chance to target your party in addition to enemies. Oof. I get the design with this class' high risk-high reward tenets, but it's frankly quite annoying to set up for. You need to either have party members dedicated to mitigating the self-damage (like an elementally immune Shieldmaster or an Oracle to manipulate elements) or to equip your entire party, including your Arcanist, to immune/absorb the damage you're going to use. This is -workable-, but it's a lot of work and you have much, much easier ways to deal huge damage even with magic to make the class worth it. The statline outside its magic is also shit, that durability speed/combo is uguu. The passives are valuable, at least, and if you find the drawbacks worth the trouble, you can actually make some surprisingly fun things with this, like a party that gets healed by Arcanist's AoE damage. In spite of how awkward the class is, I'm actually willing to experiment further with its stuff in another playthrough, which does say something about BD2's overall job design.

Bastion: 5.5/10? The skillset doesn't impress me, tbh: Rampart/Vallation (immunes the next physical or magical attack for the entire party) and, depending on builds, Sanctuary feel like the only actually potent abilities in that set. This said, the passives aren't bad at all and, most importantly, I -really- like Bastion as a carrier: good durability stats across the board, high weight allowance and excellent weapon affinities (S in Spears! A in Swords and Staves!) and even acceptable offensive stats on that statline make for a really good base to house a supporter or healer who can build BP pretty well. Only problem is Bastion speed is pretty dang bad, but can't win 'em all. Not a whole lot besides that, but that's frankly good enough sometimes.

Hellblade: 7/10. They nerfed the Dark Knight equivalent to hell and back from BD1 and it was actually warranted, of course... but I think that, skillset-wise, they went a bit too far? The attack skills on Hellblade have elemental variety, but are otherwise not worth using (the base mults are just too low even after factoring in the delayed add-ons (though there are actual upsides to using those moves with their second specialty passive, it's interesting). The speed being bad is also a problem. The class has it real good on passives and carrier perks, though: Deal With The Devil's downside is pretty hefty, but the HP -and- MP regen are actually pretty good, especially on caster classes. To boot, Hellblade has great ATK AND MAG bases and runs off S in Swords, A in Staves and -also- A in shields, so they can equip well for offensive builds no matter what (I frankly was shocked at how good staff-wielding Hellblade was at casting magic, even). And, to that respect, Death Throes is actually a great skill for offensive builds across the board and is worth putting up with the rest of the skillset as a main carrier, since it gives you an easily accessible, easy to use omni-stat boost for setting up huge damage burst. Finally, Surpassing Power is one of the most important passives for post-C4 damage builds for pretty self-explanatory reasons: you WANT to break the damage cap on most offensive builds worth their salt (not all, though: Swordmaster damage builds, for instance, rely a lot more on huge amount of hits that struggle to break cap). So, yeah, there's a lot to work with here, even though the bases need some work. It's actually a nice class to stay in if you run it as a build carrier, regardless - heck, there's a non-negligible argument for Hellblade to be the best carrier class for straight offensive mage builds, even, that MAG and A in Staves+Death Throes off actual weight allowance cap and defensive stats are quite a sell.

Bravebearer: 8/10. So, this job is absolutely bonkers. Has all the stats (and I mean ALL the stats), a good, interesting skillset based on advanced BP manipulation, absolutely incredible passives (only job to get a S Rank passive pre-cap unlocks! Allows picking subjob second specialties!) and even the B rank on all weapons across the board isn't much of a big deal. There's only one problem, though: eeew, super late game class. This said, this thing unlocks so much power while being so desirable to stay in that I have to grade it very highly. Ultimately the best carrier in the game, Bravebearer is everything BD1 Conjurer wishes it was.


« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 06:07:34 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

SnowFire

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2021, 01:11:57 AM »
Random thoughts on Jo'ou's BD2 comments...

* Black Mage feels like the undisputed worst class long-term, but the "Poisoning bosses" gimmick puts in some real solid work, especially if you're underlevel or in some sort of challenge run.  It's especially worth hype vs. Bernard, who's tough and has parasitic healing, but Poison will keep the pressure on.  The better your offensive setups get, the less relevant Poison hype is, but hell, even in Chapter 2 Poisoning some of those tanky bosses is good, and mastered BM can break all of those annoying immunities the support demons have.  Halving / immunity is definitely frequent enough that the BM Passive2 is not just for show.  The fact I can write all this about a class that is Mostly Bad just goes to show how good the balance is.

* For Monk, my recollection is that if you go in unarmed, you get a huge natural Aim boost, so they're pretty good at the "actually hit enemies" part?  But I didn't use 'em much.

* I'm a bit skeptical of hyping up Beastmaster TOO much, as it is a "greedy" class slightly in that it wants you to leave the Pokemon collector passive equipped the entire game, and ideally requires some trial & error to learn what the good summons are.  That said, if you do so, you get some amazing raw stats on demand, and if you don't then you just collect Spearhead and move on with your life.

* As one of those "did you read a FAQ" bits of obscura, while Thief utility is pretty awful casually what with the terrible steal rate, if you know what you're doing it can be solid.  Notably, you can charge up an ultimate, equip +HP accessories on everyone, go challenge an OP miniboss monster way before you're supposed to take one on, use the Thief ultimate for a guaranteed steal (reset if you don't get the rare steal), and get OP late-game weapons stupidly early (granted, at a weight cost that means you might be running around naked).  Then run away screaming before the boss wipes the party (you keep the steal).  You can also apparently steal Aim booster buns from Vesps in the C2 overworld map if you want to boost your Aim the hard way.

* For Red Mage I'm convinced that Swords is just a trap for them, just go for staves, especially if you have access to the Earth or Wind boosting stave (or some other elemental boost staff and the right passive).  Their problem is that their base M Atk is weirdly trashy (WORSE than Freelancer?  Equal to Vanguard?  WTF?) so they need to stack that as much as they can, or else they're chainspelling two spells that each do lol damage, but it's usually fixable, and the healing is workable.  Agree it makes a solid package overall.

* I'm a bit harsher on Ranger than you?  I think it may require a replay, but I'm just down on Bows early because they're both heavy and they mean no Shields, and Shields can be pretty darn helpful for stuff like elemental resists or just a pile of HP.  Counter-Savvy is obviously aces though.

* In the same way, I didn't seriously use Salve-Maker, but I'd question ranking them that high, their status mixes didn't seem to have THAT high a hit rate from my occasional use of them.  Obviously bonkers in combination with Phantom 12 but I feel that's Phantom being broken less Salve-Maker.  That said, Thrust & Parry is great, even if you're wielding just one weapon, and I respect that Widen Area + Healing Amp X-Potions is a very solid alternative to White Magic if you want a healer that doesn't need to care about magic (which can become Widen Area Elixirs very very late).

* I think I'm a bit more down on Hellblade than you.  BD2 fights can go long, and it's not uncommon to have "Whoops, boss wiped 3 party members but whatever, time to Brave out 3x Phoenix Downs then recover."  You can't unequip the aptly named Deal with the Devil, so... meh.  It's not a big deal if you run just 1 Hellblade I suppose or set up for overwhelming offense that ends the fight fast, but if your fights are so fast then what's the point of a sustain passive like Deal?  Surpassing Power isn't THAT necessary either, but Jo'ou already notes that as far as using classes that have multi-hit combos for their big damage - Vanguard's Neo Cross Slash for one easy example.

* Agree that Bravebearer is hard to rank, very Fire Emblem Athos-esque.  It is absolutely busted in stats that almost devalues some other classes from a strict efficiency perspective (Oracle stealing stats of the sub-job = Oracle / BB is solid, BB / Freelancer with Sub-Job Passive 2 = INSANE STATS if you master a bunch of classes on the unit that does this, like totally immortal stats, or pick just Any Other Class + BB secondary + Sub-Job 2 Passive for whoops, all the BP off True Grit), but it is around for just the final challenges pretty much.  Very much a "use this if you're having trouble with the final boss" class I guess since the final boss isn't that scary, but will ruin your BP, and hey this class provides free BP like candy.

Good times, though.  I suspect will require a replay some day to say more, there's definitely classes I just mastered and immediately moved on from, but sticking with 'em could have uncovered new possibilities.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 01:19:20 AM by SnowFire »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2021, 04:15:29 AM »
* Black Mage feels like the undisputed worst class long-term, but the "Poisoning bosses" gimmick puts in some real solid work, especially if you're underlevel or in some sort of challenge run.  It's especially worth hype vs. Bernard, who's tough and has parasitic healing, but Poison will keep the pressure on.  The better your offensive setups get, the less relevant Poison hype is, but hell, even in Chapter 2 Poisoning some of those tanky bosses is good, and mastered BM can break all of those annoying immunities the support demons have.  Halving / immunity is definitely frequent enough that the BM Passive2 is not just for show.  The fact I can write all this about a class that is Mostly Bad just goes to show how good the balance is.

Poison being solid is good, but I feel its main use dwindles right around the time you get... Red Mage, who actually gets more status options if you're going that route. I wouldn't have beaten Anihal without poizn, of course, but Prologue and C1 are the only points where Black Mage really makes its mark.

Quote from: SnowFire
* For Monk, my recollection is that if you go in unarmed, you get a huge natural Aim boost, so they're pretty good at the "actually hit enemies" part?  But I didn't use 'em much.

I'm not sure if that's the case, I felt Monk needed to run Bare-knuckled Brawler for their Aim to keep up.

Quote from: SnowFire
* I'm a bit skeptical of hyping up Beastmaster TOO much, as it is a "greedy" class slightly in that it wants you to leave the Pokemon collector passive equipped the entire game, and ideally requires some trial & error to learn what the good summons are.  That said, if you do so, you get some amazing raw stats on demand, and if you don't then you just collect Spearhead and move on with your life.

I know you're always super harsh on Gau archetypes, but just messing with the job randomly shows that... you really don't need knowledge at all to realize Beastmaster is -that- busted. The game's scaling on the monsters is completely, completely bonkers: from the dungeon you first get to use Beastmaster in, all the offensive monsters you get at worst match what is likely your best damage off capstone skills like Pressure Point (which you might not even have by that dungeon if you're running a bit underlevelled!), and at best beating it by a magnitude of anywhere from 2x to 4x. This pattern repeats itself all over - I paid very little attention to the specific monsters I captured, just looked at the name of the skill, the element and tossed shit at the wall to see what stuck - and this had Beastmaster being consistently my best boss slayer by a significant margin. When Off The Chain kicks in, this just becomes utterly -gross-, you're nearly ramming the damage cap at late C2 at worst because almost every monster that deals damage just chunks off things. The finesse you describe becomes a factor mostly on challenge runs, but in a casual run, you mostly just press butans and one-round asterisks with whatever junk you just randomly got from that passive (which is the easiest slot in ever for the entirety of C2-4, why yes I want to equip this passive that fuels the unit that kills C2-3 bosses in a single chain). To give you an idea, I was ramming the four-digit damage cap on a portal asterisk fight with a random C2-C3 border monster casting Banishra with Off The Chain. The scaling is -THAT- batty.

(Small caveat: in C3 and C4, you will probably prefer to use magic attacks on your monsters than physicals, since their AIM actually scales kinda poorly, but monster magic damage scaling is just as bananas as monster physical damage, so it's not a big deal)

To make things even dumber, the monster pool is shared by -all- people running Taming (not even Beastmasters per se!) and multiple people equipping the beast capture passive also multiplies your monster roster (and the stat boosts given to your Beastmasters) even further. The job's personal perks just snowball the package into complete insanity. I think the theoretical effort in capturing monsters is the only thing keeping Beastmaster from a straight 10/10.

Quote from: SnowFire
* For Red Mage I'm convinced that Swords is just a trap for them, just go for staves, especially if you have access to the Earth or Wind boosting stave (or some other elemental boost staff and the right passive).  Their problem is that their base M Atk is weirdly trashy (WORSE than Freelancer?  Equal to Vanguard?  WTF?) so they need to stack that as much as they can, or else they're chainspelling two spells that each do lol damage, but it's usually fixable, and the healing is workable.  Agree it makes a solid package overall.

Swords are -mostly- a trap, but there are a couple weapons (Flametongue in C2, Icebrand in the C2-C3 transition if you find the Mudkip lookalike parked near Halcyonia) that give Red Mage more magic than any of the rods you can get at that point - C2-C3 kinda starves you for good staves! The ones that boost their favored elements are also consigned to later points in the game. But by C4, once your staff roster starts getting real robust, yeah, you transition back to rods, both for the elemental boosting and better magic. Which, of course, is important for the reason you pointed: Red Mages have the worst base MAG of all mage classes.

Quote from: SnowFire
* I'm a bit harsher on Ranger than you?  I think it may require a replay, but I'm just down on Bows early because they're both heavy and they mean no Shields, and Shields can be pretty darn helpful for stuff like elemental resists or just a pile of HP.  Counter-Savvy is obviously aces though.

I mean, Rangers can't equip shields with bows, yeah, which is a point in theory... but the reality is they shouldn't be touching shields ANYWAY, that E means shields give very diminishing returns. They lose so very little from ditching shields and dual-wielding without the Phantom passive is complete junk. It's a valid comparison to other classes, in that Rangers are obviously frailer than other fighter builds, but they compensate by just having higher offense (I was dealing damage that wouldn't be out of place in a Berserker build with them in C2-C3, running bows at S rank is just that stacked at that point). Not to mention... not a whole lot of classes at that point can even make good use of shields, I ran a lot of C1 and C2 shieldless because any shield other than stuff found in the -prologue- often encumbered non-Vanguard/Berserker classes way too much until I gained a few levels! And, at that point, the sacrifice offered by bows just becomes more enticing, especially with A/S ranks on that weapon. They benefit somewhat disproportionately from a good rank on them because of their bases.

Quote from: SnowFire
* In the same way, I didn't seriously use Salve-Maker, but I'd question ranking them that high, their status mixes didn't seem to have THAT high a hit rate from my occasional use of them.  Obviously bonkers in combination with Phantom 12 but I feel that's Phantom being broken less Salve-Maker.  That said, Thrust & Parry is great, even if you're wielding just one weapon, and I respect that Widen Area + Healing Amp X-Potions is a very solid alternative to White Magic if you want a healer that doesn't need to care about magic (which can become Widen Area Elixirs very very late).

I never hyped their status rates, though - I pointed way up in Freelancer that you need luck manipulation with Miscellany to make status builds viable before Phantom. This said, I just think the combo is -that- broken, and you can't access that level of status manipulation without Compounding. It's the only skillset that has all of the boss fight-breaking statuses crammed together -at all- - and in full AoE manner to boot! Sure, Phantom being broken is the bigger deal, but no job enables that hard-as-nails game breaking the way Salve-Maker does. And there are of course the perks of being the other big-name healer class.

Quote from: SnowFire
* I think I'm a bit more down on Hellblade than you.  BD2 fights can go long, and it's not uncommon to have "Whoops, boss wiped 3 party members but whatever, time to Brave out 3x Phoenix Downs then recover."  You can't unequip the aptly named Deal with the Devil, so... meh.  It's not a big deal if you run just 1 Hellblade I suppose or set up for overwhelming offense that ends the fight fast, but if your fights are so fast then what's the point of a sustain passive like Deal?  Surpassing Power isn't THAT necessary either, but Jo'ou already notes that as far as using classes that have multi-hit combos for their big damage - Vanguard's Neo Cross Slash for one easy example.

Deal With The Devil mainly felt like it made me go a lot less times on the menu to recover MP for my mage, it's just a neat convenience that doesn't cost slots (unlike MP Regen or Solar/Lunar-Powered, which all cost slots while being less powerful MP regens). As for the downside... I dunno, it didn't feel as bad as it does sound even when it DID kick in? If your strategy does rely on reviving a lot, I agree it's a bitch, but by then, you also have a lot of ways to keep people from just dying anyway? I wouldn't run more than a single Hellblade in a party, though (they may be the best carrier for pure mage damage builds - mainly they don't die to a sneeze and can actually have some weight flexibility -, but pure damage also isn't the only way to go for mages either. The thing is they also have the stats for being quite capable physical carriers, and that flexibility has some value too).
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 04:01:32 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2021, 06:24:31 AM »
Weighing in on some things as of early Chapter 2:

I generally second Snowfire where Black Mage is concerned. It's... not a bad earlygame class at all, regardless of what it does from here. Poison is aces against bosses, and magic damage is sometimes just nice to have, since some enemies specifically have terrifying physical counters. I don't really think their MP costs are a major issue; the beautiful thing about spending MP in Bravely Default 2 is you only do it as much as you need. Easy formation? Yeah, take it apart using almost no MP at all. Tough one? Break out the MP. Ethers are super cheap anyway, even the second-tier ones cost less than one attack item (though attack items are also pretty good in a pinch incidentally!).

On the other hand I definitely second Jo'ou that Beastmaster is really good! Like, seriously, everything about them is good so far:
-Mow Down rules. See earlier comments about MP not being a big deal, 4x Mow Down carves formations in half if they don't have a physical counter. (And it only costs about as much as two -aras, anyway.)
-Good passives everywhere! Spearhead has been noted (held back a bit by bows outclassing spears pretty badly at my point, but you can equip-change cheese it at worst). Raw Power is a big damage boost to brave blitzes. MP Saver is cool.
-And yeah, finally, the releases themselves just deal great damage (even the regular version, I don't have the upgraded one yet). I've done exactly what Snow did, just throw the right element and/or "big beefy physical" and the damage potential is clearly better than anything else I can do right now. No random formation survives a good MT release followed by Mow Down spam. And they have the best damage against bosses. The brave system makes capturing so much easier than in FF5: Mercy Strike/Smash x2, Capture x2 is gonna net you two enemies per encounter unless it's so dangerous that you're using your Beastmaster for offensive blitzing as per above.

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SnowFire

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2021, 10:03:35 PM »
Yeah, just to be clear, I was assuming that if you were going bare-handed on Monk, you would run Bare-Knuckle Brawler passive as well, the 30% AIM boost is pretty huge with how sensitive the AIM stat seems to be to minor changes.

I'll have to do another playthrough that hard-commits to the Beastmaster strat some day, I do know that the stats from the second passive get insane if you do so. I was just skeptical it gets all the way to 9.5, which is pretty damn high!  If the releases are good enough though, sure, that'll help.

I do agree with Jo'ou that a single Hellblade as a damage carrier is pretty interesting and solid, since their stats & weapon proficiencies are certainly legit.  It's just that given multiple good options, if I'm going for the option that adds in an additional Horrible Failure condition, it better damn well be *great* to make up for the risk considering all the safer options you have.  I'll take the supermarket cookies over fancy bakery cookies that also have a 10% chance of containing dead cockroaches.

Tide

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2021, 03:56:30 AM »
Yakuza: Like a Dragon -

For the most part, PC balance is fair, although there is some odd stuff. 7 PCs, 1 of them is optional, but you're likely to get her because she's part of the business management mini-game which you'll definitely want to do anyway because money is the primary resource constraint in this game. Finishing the business management mini-game gets you 3 million yen in like 3-4 minutes and is the most efficient way of racking up fast cash. So for all intents and purposes, I consider her part of the normal cast. If you don't, then Saeko gets significantly better because all the female jobs become exclusive to her. Primarily ranking based on main game performance - I know an optional super dungeon exists but not really planning on doing it myself.

Kasuga: 8/10. I waffle between a 7.5 or an 8, but I figure Kasuga's utility means he can rock it with Han more often than not. Kasuga has a lot of good stuff going for him - access to some powerful unique skills, the only person who can call summons, has access to MT Healing and buffing along with some solid damage and good durability. He also gains a lot of status immunities overtime as his social parameters improve. His main drawback is that he lacks attack type variety - he's largely locked to Blunt attack types and his magic isn't great so if the enemies block his main damage, he's not going to do so great as an attacker. Thankfully, he can always fallback to defensive support. Ironically, going Musician isn't a terrible idea here.

Adachi: 6/10. On paper, Adachi isn't that great. He's slow and he's a tank in a game where he can't actively draw enemies attention towards him. Sure, he does have Rage status and can get Transfer Shield as an Enforcer, but those things don't necessary force enemies to hit him and Rage is mostly ST. In practice however, he usually ends up better than Nanba and Zhao. For one, he joins super early, which gives you a lot of time to work on what jobs you want through faster Drink Link progress. Second, his high durability and quick access to Enforcer means that Transfer Shield comes into play quick and its very good at giving an extra layer of defense to either your healer or Nanba, both of which appreciate it. His own damage isn't terrible either thanks to Paralysis Prongs - another Enforcer skill that he will end up getting. However, many of his skills are grapples, which don't work on certain enemies, so that kind of sucks.

Nanba: 4/10. Probably cast worse PC though Zhao comes close. Nanba's primary strength is in magic which means all those mage classes are almost made for him. Problem: His Drink Link is capped at 2 until a little past mid-game, which means that his job progression speed is also slowed and that creates big problems for a mage as you need to spend quite a bit of time in each job to pick up the proper elemental skill. To make matters worse, he's sluggish and not very durable. Still, there are some fights where he clearly excels in hitting much harder than the others since he can hit a defense they can't. But the lack of durability then rears its ugly head - usually meaning he almost always needs some one to cover him.

Saeko: 6.5/10. Having access to the only healing class in the game due to being female is huge since otherwise, using ST healing items is incredibly inefficient and costly. Past that though, Saeko doesn't do much else that can be done by Eri. She has a different series of buffs but those tend to get overshadowed by Kasuga's MT version - and the ST debuffs aren't great here. She also has a better magic score, but getting to develop those skills takes a while so she tends to be the worse of the two women who join the team.

Eri: 7.5/10. See Saeko. Getting access to the primary healing class is wonderful. However, Eri also has good attack skills in her native Clerk class and can pick up some supporting physical skills rather quickly in Night Queen. She's also faster too, which is good for healers! Less durable than Saeko, but running both women at the same time is not that unusual given their strengths.

Han: 8/10. Is probably the best PC in the game, although Kasuga gives him a run for his money. Han has a lot going for him: Access to all 3 Physical types in his default class, the best damage to MP ratio move in the game, game best speed, has one of the best defensive buffs that jack up his evade. All this means he is the best physical damage dealer, while being a good evade tank and is fast enough to fill in utility gaps as needed. Unlike other PCs who typically would want to dip into one or two other classes to pick up some quick skills, Han literally needs nothing else other than his base class. His weaknesses are rather minor - joining mid-game means his job progression is slower than the others and his skills are lacking outside of damage and self-buffs. Damn good at what he does though. 

Zhao: 5/10. I like Zhao's but it's hard to recommend him for main game use. He joins the latest, which means his job progression is the worse of the cast. Then, he doesn't do anything that Han can't. Oh sure, his skills have more debuffs and status attached to them but they don't tend to make up for Han's better raw damage and notably better speed. About the one thing Zhao does have going for him is a decent enough magic score, which means he can dip into the magic classes and get some magic attacks to round out his offensive. His better defenses matter too in some cases since he can usually take 1 more hit than Nanba, which lets him survive some of the hardier attacks.
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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2021, 01:41:44 AM »
Trails of Cold Steel 4: We Really Didn't Think This Chrono Burst Thing All The Way Through Did We

The usual tl;dr is that I kind of agree with Tide but at the same time I kind of don't.  The slightly longer version is that I'll try to judge between infinite turn cheese loops and a theorhetical world where Chrono Burst doesn't exist and things actually get turns.

Juna: Well on the one hand Junie still has some pretty junk offensive stats (which really don't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things.)  On the same hand, breaking isn't quite as effective as noted and Sledgehammer ate a net nerf besides.  On the other hand 30 CP self buff that provides 1 BP for using it with no downsides whatsoever hello yes there's absolutely no way this could be exploited oh wait hi Chrono Burst.  Being able get literally infinite turns thanks to the combination of those two things in addition to Musse's Brave Order is some ridiculously stupid bullshit and it's a testament to what a broken mess of a game and I'm not even sure this is even the dumbest thing you can do.  Oh even better, having two Space locks means she gives up basically nothing to run EP Cut and Hit quartz which in turn mitigates whatever harm having mediocre stats could do lol.  Without cheesing it out like this... eh she still has GT Accelerate (though hers is more expensive than Machias's) and Brave Orders are still the new broken so no-questions-asked BP generation is nice to have anyways so she comes out looking pretty good regardless.  7.5/10.

Kurt: Kurt on the other hand... yeah no, having to compete with the Old Class 7 pretty much all the time does him no favors and his Brave Order having its cost upped to 4 BP pretty much kills it regardless of what you're doing.  Range 1 is again suboptimal for evade strats and Evade quartz are even weaker than they were in CS3 to boot, and while he does have a cheap delay craft, those got nerfed AGAIN and he has to give up free slots for Impede quartz anyways so loud shrug.  There's just no reason to use apart from being forced to.  3/10.

Altina: Okay, the bad out of the way first; Ebon Crest got nerfed to 5 BP and counterplay to it seems to exist now.  Also bad, her craft list is still all over the place, she still has a terrible HP/speed combo, and she's a primary caster who doesn't get ATS from her weapon.  Now for the good, Time/Space/Mirage are active for pretty much the entire game so having Mirage/Space locks is considerably less of an issue, plus having a potential mountain of EP is a good way to Make Stuff Happen.  Her healing/CP recovery craft self-targets now so there's that.  She's one of four people to get Auto-Charge 2 which makes infinite Chrono Burst (and other things besides) even easier to pull off.  Finally, casters are just pretty much better for longer than they were in CS3, so even the one with the lowest (non-cheese) cieling comes off looking pretty fine here.  6/10.

Randy: He's an acceptable standin for a physical bruiser in the first part of Chapter 1 at least, having a 4S+ S-Craft and a solid filler Brave Order will do that.  2 Fire/1 Time doesn't offend as far as orbment locks are concerned either.  You just... can't really do MORE with him since his main MQ is fixed and Regulus isn't really great outside of randobusting.  Still, he's at least good at something.  5/10.

Ash: Once again I can't bring myself to be as impressed by Ash as Tide, but he's hardly bad.  His strength isn't -that- amazing overall and while he does get a 4S+ S-Craft... it's single target only and while that's not quite as embarrasing as it sounds in this particular Trails game, we've long since passed the days of TitS and so I can't think that highly of it, especially since Gaius and Crow also get S-Crafts that strong.  Meanwhile the base version of Reaper Whirlwind (y'know, the thing that made up a lot of his randobusting worth) had its status odds slashed to 30% and it costs 80 CP now, which is a pretty big oof early.  Plus I can't really say I'm a fan of Crit+% Brave Orders when they have such a paltry buff effect attached to them.  On the plus side it's at least easier for him to pull off his game now for a variety of reasons.  5.5/10.

Fie: Once again, Fie doesn't do much except for the thing she's really good at doing.  I guess Concealing Wind is a cute way to ensure BP gain but it has similar problems as Unbound Rage while being less Chrono Burst friendly.  Plus the thing she's really good at doing involves letting enemies get turns and doesn't help against enemy S-Crafts anyways.  At least the early game is good though.  5/10.

Elliot: Someone who looks a lot better if you're not cheesing the fuck out of the game for pretty much the same reasons why Elliot was always solid.  About the only complaints I have about him are that he can't unbalance with anything but his basic physical and that like most primary casters he's a bit on the slow side.  6/10.

Sara: Always a solid choice, but never the best, plus having her Brave Order nerfed to 5 BP plus the nerfing of break strats with regards to human bosses pretty much means her own brand of cheap isn't coming into play much in a field as crowded as this, although it still does exist.  Is that enough to justify a 7?  Yeah probably.  7/10.

Musse: Okay.  It's pretty much impossible to talk about Musse in CS4 without talking about her Brave Order.  In CS3, there wasn't a whole lot of point to it since even if you cared enough about casters to build a party that way, Titania MQ meant you basically had infinite EP to work with anyways and Divine Song had the same BP cost as Arts Celebration so who cared if the former didn't come with an ATS buff or restore EP?  In CS4?  Not only is Rean not around until Chapter 2 while Musse joins about two thirds of the way through Chapter 1, Divine Song had its BP cost upped to 3 whereas Arts Celebration basically wasn't touched at all, plus fast cast spamming with Divine Song isn't quite as strong against bosses this time around.  And sure, you can sub Titania for anyone you want now, but that doesn't help if you use something that does no damage, like Chrono Burst.  And while Chrono Burst went from 240 EP to 280, that's pretty much irrelevent in the face of CS4 EP pools.  In other words, somebody didn't think their cunning plan all the way through and Arts Celebration is the best tool at taking advantage of that.  If that's not enough, in terms of raw power she's probably the strongest offensive caster despite losing to Emma on ATS by virtue of actually having an offensive S-Craft and just has a bunch of neat stuff in theory that doesn't come up normally because the game ain't hard and she also has this One Weird Trick that overshadows everything.  8.5/10 is probably right since I'm not sure that even with all that she has the sheer level of statistical/skillset dominance for a 9 but damned if she doesn't try.

Alisa: Pretty much unchanged from CS3, about the only strike against her is not being able to infinite with Chrono Burst quite as well as some but whatever.  Sightly better than Sara IMO but not enough so that she gets higher than a 7/10.

Jusis: Jusis pretty much only got buffs, but they're slight incidental buffs like his S-Craft being 3S+/4S now and Treasure Sword now impedes.  More crucially, however, his Brave Order didn't get touched at all, which means it's now solid filler.  Having 2 Space/1 Wind is probably better for the infinite Chrono Burst loop than Tide credits him for (and he's got more EP than Juna at base to boot) but no Burning Heart means he's worse at it than Junie regardless, and he doesn't offer all that much to non-cheese setups other than maybe Arts Support 2.  5.5/10.

Machias: While Machias may not have Burning Heart, he does have a bunch of other nonsense going for him that applies to almost any team, cheese or non-cheese you could think of except maybe, MAYBE fast cast spamming (and even then he gets Auto-Charge 2).  His own offense isn't anything to write home about as usual, but someone's gotta keep the engines of broken running and Machias does that job nicely.  6/10.

Laura: Oof, big f here.  So when you're occupying one dimension as Laura does you want to be the best at it, and unfortunately for Laura in CS4 she now has Actual Competition when it comes to her role and said competition just have more to offer in general.  This, much like how it is with Kurt, does not lend itself well to the idea of Laura actually having gameplay prescence, and while a part of me says that since she at least is good at something relevent she should get a higher score than him she uh doesn't even have the decency to have an impede craft and Kurt's deals magic damage which is better anyways so uh I don't think I actually can.  3/10.

Emma: Castbest ATS as per usual but again her S-Craft might as well not exist.  And the castbest ATS isn't even that significant (though the Mirage locks help I guess).  She does get Auto-Charge 2 at least but she doesn't get it until Link Lv6 so she's losing to Altina/Machias/Crow at that too.  At least she doesn't have it nearly as bad as Laura though.  5/10.

Gaius: Okay here's where I most strongly disagree with Tide because everything you need to make Gaius busted is basically handed to you and getting around the initial downsides to pulling off loop nonsense with him is pretty much trivial in terms of expenditure, and even that expenditure basically goes away completely once your options expand.  So to start things off, Gaius has the best S-Craft in the game at 4S/All that upgrades to 4S+, however that's not what makes it stupid.  No, what makes it completely stupid is that it also applies completely irresistable AT Delay and that it's attached to someone who can trade HP for CP.  "But Random!" you say "It only adds 8 clockticks and S-Crafts have huge delay, it can't be that good!"  Sure, pulling off a loop with it in the beginning isn't the most elegant thing in the world since you do need to maintain Gaius's HP and don't have stupid amounts of passive CP gain, but the fact that you *just got access* to a Chrono Burst quartz to go along with Musse's Brave Order solves a whole lot of problems there, doesn't it?  The dirty secret, of course, is that you don't need this loop to go on infinitely (and indeed, S-Crafts can't generate BP on their own so this can't), just long enough to build back the BP needed to start the loop again, plus it's stronger than Juna's basic physicals so you probably don't need to early anyways.  And of course once your options expand, the less work you need to do to make it work.  Now sure, since this involves piggybacking off of others and he's merely solid outside of this I'm definitely not gonna give him a better score than Juna, let alone Musse, but this does work with literally zero sepith investment, and that does deserve some Jeigan points.  7/10.

Rean: Rean, by comparison, offers little outside of his good selection of Brave Orders and his speed, and while I like self buffs I also uh like having control of my PCs.  He does get a solid powerspike on the last day thanks to those bonding accessories and an upgrade to his S-Craft but that's mostly a conventional play sort of thing.  6.5/10.

Crow: Like Sara, Crow is just a pile of good stats without anything that makes him cheap, Azure Destiny is one heck of a self buff but at 100 CP it had better be and while Chaos Raven is probably better than Rean's two cheap filler Brave Orders it's not better than those AND Divine Song.  On the plus side, he also gets Auto-Charge 2 so that counts for something at least.  5.5/10.

Duvalie: Uh.  Yeah unless you're cheaping out with infinite Chrono Burst I really don't have much good to say here.  Locked Dunamis MQ is only really good for randobusting and her craft list/ATS combo isn't amazing for it anyways, and range 1+no Wind locks is pretty much the worst combo for an evade build and that's not great anyways.  I'm not sure how much I like only one Space lock for infinite Chrono Burst anyways but this is at least something she has on the worst of the cast, so.  4/10.

Angelica: Well she has two Space locks, and locked Emblem MQ is pretty far from the worst thing.  Of course, if you're cheesing the game it's pretty much long since died before you can exploit how stupid having multiple top-end quartz is but a more conventional approach would appreciate the extra power.  That said, I do wish she had better AoE that wasn't tied to her S-Craft, or better ATS failing that.  5.5/10.

Tita: Pretty much unkillable by straight HP damage and that is hilarious considering that it's freakin' *Tita*.  Her only downsides are having kind of bad ATS and garbage speed but she hits hard.  Pretty easily a 7 if she stuck around for the final dungeon as Tide said but as it stands a 6.5/10 will have to do.

Sharon: Yeah can't say I'm a fan of locked Gloom MQ, it's not even that great for randobusting because high status resistance abounds when she's around and "when she's around" is basically just the pre-final dungeon part of the last day so uh loud shrug.  This is still probably more presence than Kurt and Laura have though.  3.5/10.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 08:23:58 AM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2021, 02:38:50 AM »
Bravely Default 2.

With just one playthrough I don't feel remotely authoritative about this game, the job system is incredibly deep in terms of the ways you can fit stuff together even compared to other Bravely games, and I definitely didn't have time to truly dive into each job.

So I'm just gonna take Jo'ou's ratings and propose how, if at all, I would be inclined to change them. Few jobs are gonna move by more than 2 points, Jo'ou's ratings and justifications are fundamentally solid.

I don't care about anything past JL12 (except Freelancer I suppose, and only barely for them) - by both my observations and Snowfire's, they're gated behind fights that are comparable to the final boss, so any merits they unlock at the last second would be weighted at virtually nothing if the fight guarding them is judged as easier than the final boss, and absolutely nothing if judged as harder.

Anyway, Jo'ou's ratings for reference!

Quote
Freelancer: 6.5/10
Black Mage: 3/10
White Mage: 8/10
Vanguard: 7/10
Monk: 4.5/10
Bard: 8/10
Beastmaster: 9/10
Thief: 7/10
Berserker: 7/10
Gambler: 2/10
Red Mage: 6.5/10
Ranger: 6.5/10
Shieldmaster: 5/10
Pictomancer: 7/10
Salve-Maker: 8.5/10
Dragoon: 7/10
Spiritmaster: 8/10
Swordmaster: 7/10
Oracle: 6.5/10
Phantom: 9/10
Arcanist: 4.5/10
Bastion: 5.5/10
Hellblade: 7/10
Bravebearer: 8/10

Freelancer: Lower? I think this ranking only makes sense if Body Slam is very good. I didn't get it, so I'm not sure how good it is, though it looks solid on paper... but not Godspeed Strike good (for starters, it needs Sub-Job BP Saver to really compete). The class itself is extremely unpleasant to be in with its C ranks everywhere which makes me eye it much more harshly; my own inclination was to get out especially since BD1 starts showing teeth pretty quickly.

Black Mage: Higher. I think you underrate its utility in Prologue-C1 mostly; before you get Beastmaster it's your best random sweeper and boss fighter both (Poison!). Obviously bad later, but having a clear niche before everything else starts getting rolling is a lot better in my eyes than a lategame job which has some on-paper niche but is competing with 20 other broken things.

White Mage: Probably about right. It's less good than BD1 because Salve-Maker offers better competition, but still really goddamned great in Chapter 1-2; good luck keeping up with boss offence with just items. I will say that if you're not going for hyper optimum Spearhead ORKO strats in randoms, that its ability to efficiently heal you with one button is pretty darn convenient (the game won't use items for this), but I'm not inclined to boost its score for that.

Vanguard: About right. A bit of everything, mostly competent. The Cross Slash series is just good damage for what it is, and Gift of Courage, while no One More For You, is still a nice tool, and attack debuffing has some use in early boss fights.

Monk: About right? Maybe a bit lower? As I said earlier I am strongly inclined to rate it below Black Mage, but that might be just a "rate Black Mage higher" vote. It doesn't really stand out and then you get better physical jobs and forget about it.

Bard: About right, basically agree with everything you said. It might be sliiightly lower in my books because at a certain point some bosses do start having some pretty nasty anti-buff counters, but very good for a long time; the survival it enables in tough boss fights early is great.

Beastmaster: This job is ridiculous. I think if anything I'm even higher on it than you. First off: the accuracy! In a game where enemy evade is significant, Beastmaster being game-best at this (tied with Ranger but then you get their stupid mastery) is a major boon which had me going back to the job any time the going got tough. And the skillset; Mercy Smash is a cost-effective damage option, and Mow Down is one of the premier MT moves, a slightly weaker Crescent Moon that doesn't need Sub-Job BP Saver (though goodness knows the skillset benefits from SJBPS in other ways...). And obviously releases are just ridiculous in Chapter 2-3. You say its utility falls off, I say its utility won me the game. MVP without much question to me.

Thief: Godspeed Strike/10 is a perfect summary. I basically agree.

Berserker: Lower? Maybe. I like different things about this job than you! I definitely think you overrate Savagery; its MT options are just Mow Down variants but requiring more support, Amped Strike is very expensive compared to Neo Cross Slash and Godspeed Strike (both of which do more damage), and its debuffs are garbage. That said, I like its passives: Indiscriminate Rage has a neat synergy for randommashing later, though, Bloody-Minded has some use because enemy evade gets kinda bananas at point, and Unshakeable Will is very neat especially if you run a tank. Pierce Default is cool for randomsweeping too, but how Spearhead's better.

Gambler: Pass, I got it right before the final boss. Looks bad though.

Red Mage: Lower definitely. A deeply unpleasant job to actually be in before mastery, being a mage with garbage offence (both the stat and the proficiecies play a role here) and a straight-up worse primary than black mage until Level 12 (one less element, and Poison > ST healing). Gets one good passive, and another good one if you actually run magical offence (plus its mastery skill for the latter), but meh.

Ranger: About right. Counter-Savvy's great, and they've got a bunch of nice perks as you note: the speed, the accuracy, the S in bows. I was having good results running my MT physical offence off of them, two of my fighters did this for a while.

Shieldmaster: Higher! I liked this job. Most bosses from Chapter 3 on rely on powerful ST attacks off high speed to be scary, guess what Shieldmaster spoils? Even better, their passive can intercept MT attacks. And then the second passive means they start gaining crazy amout of BP just from spamming Defender of the People, which can power lots of utiltiy for free. Dual Shields, Fast Hands, their high weight tolerance/durability all add up to a deathtank who isn't nearly as slow as they "should" be who can keep you alive in most fights. Not quite as good against the final final boss whose basic physicals are comparatively rare but even then, Protect Ally absorbing MT attacks saved my bacon at points. And in the meantime they can be a tanky carrier of another support skillset of your choice.

Pictomancer: A bit lower? I dunno. Sub-Job BP Saver/10, that obviously benefits a whole bunch of other skillsets, but nothing else about them really wowed me. Their debuffs are an upgrade on Vanguard's but it felt like debuff countering started getting more common shortly after and I ended up using them less than I was expecting to.

Salve-Maker: About right. This job's good! A better healer than White Mage except for the part where it does bleed the bank some; Widen X-Potion's 3750 MT is more than I ever got MT Curaga doing, for less MP, and the skillset has superior MP and status healing options too. I didn't even use its status much but that only makes it better! At least if Results Guaranteed can do something about the awful base hit rate of the status bombs, and not just their status infliction rate.

Dragoon: About right. Not too standout but a good statstick with a bit of everything; its skillset is kinda like Beastmaster's without the most broken part but Angon > Mercy Smash against a defaulting target (though similar to Neo Cross Slash).

Spiritmaster: About right to slightly lower, as far as defensive carry classes it's not as impressive as the healers, and certainly not as impressive as BD1 Spiritmaster with its anti-element nonsense. The MP healing spirit is definitely nice late though, as is Reraise.

Swordmaster: About right. I'll add that Solid Stance + Indiscriminate Rage is basically the ultimate randommunching, especially due to BD2 basic physicals having better accuracy than skills in practice.

Oracle: Lower just because of how unpleasant it is at first, and the later we get into the game the higher % of the class's existence that represents. I wasn't as high on the skillset as you either, though yeah it'd be better as support to an offensive mage I guess.

Phantom: Probably right, although somewhat based on the effectiveness of Results Guaranteed status cheese which I didn't toy with myself. That said, plenty of other good stuff as you note. I don't think it's as good as Beastmaster but it's very good, easily the best of the lategame jobs. I'm a bit less high on dual weilding than you since double the weapons means double the weight, which can be difficult to work around - obviously has potential, but it's not a free lunch.

Arcanist: Lower. Late, awkward. You can probably build a funny team around them but there are surely simpler, more flexible ways to get more effective results this late.

Bastion: Lower? I feel like this job compares poorly to Shieldmaster in a variety of ways: later, worse stats for its role (better offence, but worse speed/durability), and without the kickin' proactive tanking passives. I'm sure you can make it work though.

Hellblade: Lower. I dunno, I tried to use this and decided I was just messing with a good thing and went back to ignoring it. I basically agree with Snowfire that, while Deal with the Devil's downside isn't the end of the world, that it's still more bad than good, and could bite you in a tough fight. I'd have a higher opinion of it if Reraise could save you from the downside, but it doesn't.

Bravebearer: I have no clue, but I think you're probably right? The job barely exists; by the time you get it, you're about 30 minutes of gameplay from the final boss tops... but it's still good enough that you'll very possibly make use of it despite this, and the more you're willing to spend a little more time doing optional stuff, the more potential it has.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 02:44:19 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Monkeyfinger

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2021, 06:54:56 AM »
The Last Spell:

Characters themselves are randomly generated toons with a punch command. All the skillsets are tied to weapons, so effectively weapons are the characters.
All characters can carry 2 weapons.

Melee:

1H sword: 2/10. Tiny AoEs, weak damage. Momentum is its only trick and other melee weapons do it better.

1H hammer: 7/10. Hit 8 medium damage for 2 AP 1 mana, good the entire game. Any kind of slow spam from traps or other heroes makes the 1 AP opportunistic attack good.

1H axe: 3/10. Much worse accuracy than any other weapon, so bad it misses earlygame enemies regularly. Dreadful starter. Your melee needs to roll +acc on levelup a bunch of times to salvage it mid/late, but if you get those levelups then it brings decent AoE spam.

Dagger: 9/10. Backstab is amazing ST when you can proc it, which is pretty often. Poison daggers is a medium range skill that damages like a good melee one. Stupid high ceiling if you get good levelups/gear drops (multihit, skill range)

2H sword: 6/10. Strong small AoE, can make enormous ST hits with momentum, and a good mobility skill. Crushes the final boss. Can't clear big waves, -1 for no shield.

2H hammer: 4/10. Thoroughly meh. Decent damage, high mana and AP costs, -1 for no shield.

2H axe: 4/10. Above average at chunking big tightly packed balls, doesn't bring much else. -1 for no shield.

Spear: 5/10. Lategame weapon. Its niche is 1per turn big damage hit 7-9, nice for when monsters with actual durability show up in numbers which is last quarter of game. Okay ST momentum hit, high mana and AP costs, -1 for no shield. Bad starter.

Ranged:

Shortbow: 8/10. Rain of arrows is clunky but really hard hitting AoE, hit 4 or 5 usually. Good 1 AP ST attacks, plenty of range.

Longbow: 8/10. Massive range and a 1 AP attack with isolate, for crushing runners and flyers as they try to make a run for your wall gaps. For standard ball killing duties it brings average ST and AoE damage and great range.

1H crossbow: 7/10. In an average playthrough this gives you one decent hit on a ball with blaze then a bunch of mediocre ST ping. Short range. This weapon has the highest ceiling for characters that get lucky with levels and drops, as blaze and the basic attack both scale like crazy with multihit bonuses, blaze with propagation bonuses as well. You get this kind of character maybe 20% of runs.

2H crossbow: 3/10. High tier starter, strong reliable damage when it's just 1 wave and nothing has dodge. Below average accuracy. As attacks start splitting up and enemies get dodge, this thing becomes trash, not below average but unplayable dog shit. All the good attacks are straight line only targeting and medium range so positioning to attack gets very awkward even with high move, and the few attacks you do get off can be a miss on 75 miss on 80 kind of experience.

Pistol: 5/10. Decent 1pt AoE and very strong 1pt ST momentum hit with a movement skill to help out. If you're not proccing that momentum then its damage per AP is really bad. Better late than early.

Rifle: 4/10. Isolate weapon. Goodish late because it can annihilate the strongest monster in a group after other attacks have isolated it. Awful starter and rather slow to find its legs though, because its AoE option is 1pt and pretty weak.

Magic:

Wand: 5/10. Magic missile's pretty good, spam your AoEs first then surgically pick off stragglers. 1AP attack below average but serviceable.

Tome: 7/10. Great range. Chain lightning is a very strong 1pt AoE attack, mana intensive though. 1AP attack average damage. I almost never use fireball.

Scepter: 2/10. Weak damage, horribly short ranges, mediocre sized AoEs. Doesn't bring any kind of niche or time specific power spike.

Staff of power: 3/10. Shortish ranges but not as bad as scepter, mediocre damage and a decent AoE stun. Needs high move to be decent. Bad starter.

Druidic staff: 9/10. AoE slow hit 9 is crushing against early waves of weak slow dudes, they can't push forward at all. Chain poison damage starts decent and scales great into lategame simply because it ignores all 4 forms of defense (block, armor, dodge, res) and those stats scale up a lot on the enemy end. Good range, cheap mana costs but high AP costs.

Orb: 8/10. AoE poison a bit weaker than druidic staff, good for the same reasons. Ranged isolate with average range, you get lots of opportunities to land it.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 06:58:18 AM by Monkeyfinger »

Random Consonant

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2021, 09:17:37 PM »
Banner of the Maid: ok but what if napoleon's sister fought the duke of wellington's sister(?) nearly two decades before waterloo

The nice thing about the game is that class balance is, while pretty far from perfect, a fair bit tighter than it typically is in FE and FE-adjacent games.  Like, there's one or two classes that I'd straight up call bad but even then they're probably still better than shit like armor knights or archers (one class certainly tries but at least it actually has mobility.)  Cast balance, on the other hand does leave a bit to be desired, especially considering how small it is.  But anyways.

Pauline: Fairly good lord-type character although not all that amazing compared to some.  The stats are only generally nice (until C25 where they become generally good, especially with the more offensive promotion option) and Grenadier leaves a bit to be desired as a class line (FFM that's only alleviated through situational move boosts that you have to pay to grab, if there's a player-accessable range 2 musket other than the one she starts with I missed it completely, gets countered by light infantry which the game uses quite heavily, like I don't think they're actually the worst class but they're definitely bottom half.)  On the other hand, she's generally durable (and being able to restore 20% of her HP on defeating enemies is nice, potentially 70% if it happens with a Heroic Attack), good at producing morale, her personal ability lets her give everyone +3 attack for a turn for the cost of 50 morale (and doesn't even fully use up her turn lol) which is pretty great, the buff to adjacent infantry is occasionally useful (especially the +2 speed version you get from the unlockable promotion), and her stats are actually good enough to one-round line infantry with some finessing, which helps considerably.  7/10.

Lannes: On the other hand you have Lannes who certainly tries to make a case for Grenadier being the worst class since he fails at the things Pauline succeeds at and all he's got to show for it is better HP (although at least in his case it's gamebest) and Armor, and that doesn't make up for how much worse he is against infantry.  At least his personal is kind of okay I suppose?  And if you want to actually use another Fusilier with Pauline (you probably do at times) he's your only option until C20.  3/10.

Murat: So Murat is probably the most hyperspecialized PC in the game.  Hussars use the weakest weapon type (although sabres do at least buff evasion, which helps his dodgetanking game) and Murat himself has one of the lowest base Attack stats but on the other hand his speed is nuts (ties for cast-best post promotion) and his class counters light infantry (which as mentioned are quite common) incredibly hard so he'll succeed at his main combat role unless you let him get underleveled (mostly a problem early as his speed isn't actually wonderful to start off with).  And then his personal skill is basically a free +20 hit as well as +10 evade provided the enemy doesn't have range 3+ oh it also buffs other cavalry too, it's pretty great.  Mobility is great as well of course.  Granted his offense against things that aren't light infantry is quite pathetic (like, struggles to take out enemy artillery pathetic) and his durability when his evade fails him is pretty meh, but I have to think the pros outweigh the cons in his case.  6/10.

D'Eon: Crutch character without being an actual crutch, and one of the few such characters who actually deserves to be called an EXP thief.  Well okay I guess the crutch part is being in one of the two candidates for best class in the game (spoilers the other one is also light infantry) but even then D'Eon manages to fuck it up completely.  Literally Fire Emblem memes circa 2004, but being light infantry is probably good enough to dodge a zero.  1/10.

Paulette: Artillery!  Awful movement but range 4 and the ability to double move (which she gets for free) make up for a lot of lost goodwill.  Speed's castworst though so she'll never be that amazing at offense (and tends to weep against line infantry that specifically spoil artillery), but on the other hand she is great at producing morale and artillery gets probably the second best Heroic Attack booster in an AoE stun.  Granted, the stun's only 50% so it's no Ashes and Dust but still handy (alternatively she could just oneshot light infantry/cavalry with them, that's fine too I guess).  Helps that her base Attack is really high.  6/10.

Aimee: First of the game's two healers, and since you really don't want to be relying on consumeables or campfires if you can help it you're definitely going to be using at least one.  Granted, "healer" here also extends to things like turn refreshing and morale generation so.  Still, suffers from inventory space problems and is stuck at FFM (although you can at least get Movement +1 for her, which makes the difference between her and the other healer somewhat less stark) but can't have everything I guess.  6.5/10.

Oscar: Elf summed heavy cavalry in this game up pretty well, they're basically armor knights on a horse.  Of course, this being game being set during the French Revolution, the defensive stat heavy cavalry are good at is the lesser used of the two and the class they directly counter isn't exactly common or especially threatening (unless you happen to be a Carabiner I guess).  Granted, Oscar does pretty well for herself anyways despite the class tree fighting with Grenadier for third-worst.  Helps that she's actually good at tanking things that check Armor and that her single hit offense is just nuts, tied for castbest at base if you take the unlockable promotion and that branch gets a skill that lets her randomly perform speed-independent doubles at Lv20 which helps with her worst problem in that regard.  6/10.

Desaix: Well uh.  I'd say that they're more useful than Lannes if they weren't absent for a decent chunk of the midgame.  And using two heavy cavs is a very map dependent kind of thing to begin with so yeah.  X but with less everything doesn't tend to work unless you're in a great class to start with and even then there are limits.  At least they get Replace for free?  2.5/10.

Cosette: So, Carabiniers are basically what FE archers want to be.  Carabiniers do this thing where instead of dodge tanking they add +1 range to their attacks (although at a Fates-style attack speed penalty before they promote) and have high accuracy, and while they're not the fastest their speed is typically good enough for the things you'd actually use them against (i.e. not light cavalry) and instead of meh Attack like the other light infantry class they get pretty good Attack, and in Cosette's case she tacks on an additional 3 damage to targets on open terrain (so, most things) plus her Speed is best among people in her class so she can actually deal with some other light infantry types pretty well.  But wait, it gets better, because the class also gets a skill that basically gives them Galeforce on Heroic Attacks (2BP, but you can buy a better version if you wanted I guess) and one that basically negates the speed penalties that the higher tier rifles come with in return for their increased range lol.  On the downside the class is stuck at FFM (but at least they can potentially ignore terrain) and she's quite squishy against cavalry/artillery but probably gamebest PC?  I guess the morale generation also leaves a bit to be desired but in Cosette's case the sheer level of offense goes a fair way towards helping me forgive that.  Having both a great offensive spread and range takes you a long way.  8/10.

Adelaide: Hello castbest dodgetank.  It's not completely foolproof since some enemy types are specifically set up to spoil that kind of strategy but having so many ways to not get hit while having acceptable offense (the base Attack isn't great though the personal and class abilities help with that, but the speed's tied with Murat) while also having range 2 post promotion is good enough for at least second best PC, I think.  Helps that the mobility is also good, 6 move/terrain ignoring/canto is about the best you can ask for when having a ranged option (also the class can also buy Heroic Reload+ too lol.)  7.5/10.

Charlotte: Murat with a bit less speed and a worse personal (though not quite as useless as it first appears) but generally better offense.  Significantly so on occasion, even, like she can actually one-round enemy artillery sometimes (and for all that it's not relevent in this assessment at all, I certainly wouldn't want to try to win the optional C26 duel with Murat if the game forced it on me.)  About as balanced as a female PC in this game gets when compared to their male counterpart and while I think Charlotte probably loses the comparison I don't think it's enough for a different score.  6/10.

Eugenie: Mounted healer.  Only has +1 move on Aimee for the most part (technically 2 but let's be realistic, you're paying for Movement +1 on Aimee if you're using her at all) and an occasionally useful command skill (pity it's only for a single attack), but that's still some power creep.  7.5/10.

Ernestine: Adelaide with a bad personal skill instead of a great one, comes in slightly underleveled, and has a slightly worse stat spread.  Still doesn't fail enough at her class nearly to be bad though.  6.5/10.

Dutheil: Sappers are weird and mostly bad, they're line infantry but more of a support class than anything, except making use of their support is annoying and hampered by their having gameworst mobility (and they need an extra four levels to promote, just to rub salt in the wound) and their other gimmick of being able to partially ignore Defense doesn't really make up for how utterly garbage their offense is.  Like, being able to get more uses of Triumph Music (the game's dance equivalent) is great and all?  But you probably have enough as is even without using one.  And of course he also wastes his good defensive stats by having heavy cavalry-level speed.  Still, what support there is is probably good enough to save his class from being the -actual- worst one, but still.  And I think on reflection I'd rather have him around than Lannes if I had to choose so.  3.5/10.

Lafite: Paulette who trades some Attack for a better splash damage skill and has to pay for being able to double move.  Not a winning trade in the slightest but hey, artillery is artillery.  5/10.

Laure: Carabinier, this time with castbest Attack and a personal that buffs range for a turn.  Gives up speed for it (still above average, good lord Carabiniers are dumb) and joining at Lv14 on C18 isn't the best but hey, Carabinier is Carabinier.  6.5/10.

Therese: Same problems as Laure, but with the worst statspread (still above average at Attack/Speed) of her class and her personal sucks.  Still, she's a Carabinier and doesn't fuck it up completely so she's not the -actual- worst female PC (spoilers it's the one Elf missed) but still some Robespierre-approved anti-royal propaganda here.  5.5/10.

Philipp: So.  Philipp's light cavalry class uses rifles instead of sabres, great, everyone loves rifles right?!  Unfortunately Horse Chasseurs just suck completely, having the same base Attack problems as Hussars while having significantly less speed, and instead of a passive that helps them not fail at their most fundamental combat niche, especially since they use rifles and have to run into Defense, which light infantry are good at they get added range on counters and the ability to not be doubled on enemy phase.  In fact I'm not sure what it is they're actually supposed to do other than take away the enemy's ability to perform Heroic Attacks and maybe counter enemy artillery after promotion, and those aren't really things that are good enough to justify a deployment slot.  Oh they also promote at Lv19 so they have to wait later to use the good shit.  Yeah, no amount of mobility can save it from being the worst class in the game IMO, even scrubs like Lannes and Dutheil can do something remotely worthile with their classes.  Fuck, even D'Eon can at least pretend to dodgetank, for all that I think he's still probably worse.  1.5/10.

Nicolette: Joins at Lv13 on C20 and promotes at Lv19 and starts off in a line infantry class OH BOY.  +4 Attack/Speed against higher level targets is the sort of passive the likes of Donnel and Mozu seethe with envy at however and that and being able to learn Replace (in fact I think she's the only non-cavalry who can?) makes up for some of that lost goodwill.  Plus, like Pauline, her stats are just generally solid across the board  Also, somewhat excitingly, she has the option to promote to Carabinier if you don't want more Grenadiers.  I think I do agree with her being better than Therese but not enough for a higher score, so.  5.5/10.

Julie: The other Sapper and, as you can probably guess from that, the actual worst female PC.  I guess her personal ability makes her better than Dutheil despite joining unpromoted at C23 but good luck actually using it outside of C28 seeing as how it requires 100 morale to use (this is a little unfair, it's a great effect, but it also either requires musician time you could use for other things or throwing someone who gets doubled by everything and has mediocre offense into combat.)  On the other hand you could have concieveably promoted Dutheil by that point and I struggle to think of a compelling reason to use two Sappers so it's not like I can consider her to be all that meaninfully better.  4/10.

Leclerc: Joins unpromoted at C24 are you kidding me also he's another Horse Chasseur because of course he is.  1/10.

Rose: Only around for the last two maps, but hey, artillery with a free +1 movement and she hands out +2 speed to everyone on open terrain just for existing and she actually joins properly leveled.  6/10.

Napoleon: Last map only, but the personal ability rules and the stats are Pauline-level so I don't really have any complains other than him being in the worse Grenadier class.  5.5/10.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 06:49:28 PM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2021, 03:44:34 PM »
Yep I braodly agree with all of that.

I have a slightly higher opinion of Phillip than you, just because BotM frequently uses "enemies that don't move until they can rush you together" and Phillipp's ability to strike at range 3 then get 3 more squares away to wake them up is something I found useful a few times. But it's fair to note that Actually Good PCs only have 1 less range at this and your criticisms are all correct so.

I missed Move+1 for Aimee, sad times. Not sure how. I didn't get Feuillants to the highest tier if that's what it's tied to.

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Random Consonant

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2021, 06:29:53 PM »
Movement +1 for Aimee is at Feuillant 2 which I'm pretty sure is completely unmissable, so you missing that is extremely strange indeed.

The main issue I have with Philipp's poke and run strat is, while what you say about enemy formations is correct and I did fail to mention that fact, is that I can't think of very many situations where it's meaningfully better than either setting up in a better flanking position or taking the effort to fire off Julie's ability and charge in anyways (granted the latter isn't exactly an option if you missed recruiting her and I can see having a better opinion of him being able to do that in that case, plus she does come four chapters later at earliest).  I think C22 (the second snow map) is the only one where I might have cared, but that map gives you all the time in the world to go treasure hunting so, eh.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2021, 04:03:29 AM »
Yep I'm apparently just an idiot for missing it.

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Maybe.

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2022, 09:31:33 AM »
Bravely Default 2 (Hard Mode)

At the point where I'm pretty sure my feelings on the game's jobs are more or less set for the playthrough.  Probably could use some more adjustment in the event I take the game for a replay (which in fairness does seem to be at least somewhat likely) and get a better feel for how stuff fits together a bit more.  Also scores because I definitely disagree with some of the rationales here.

I'll mention stuff above JL12 but I won't really be factoring them in, there's some stuff you can do with them but they do feel kind of superbossy (why do you do this game) if you're not cheaping out with Phantom/Salve Maker and if you're doing -that- you've basically won the game as-is.

Freelancer: See Elf's comments, replace "if Body Slam is good" with "if Luck actually does impact status accuracy" because I'm mashing X to doubt hard from what I've seen.  I guess there's a case for staying in for the JP passives since JP gains... don't really scale much but it's not a job you want to be in any longer than you have to.  3/10.

Black Mage: The job itself is junk (staves suck for too long for the S there to be that notable, the M. Atk is merely good in return for basically being a statistical wasteland) but the skillset isn't -that- bad, three elements to work with and poison for the early game bosses (and is even kind of relevent in C2, thanks Galahad), plus -aras are pretty okay for randombusting actually?  Costlier than Mow Down sure but w/e, ethers are peanuts in this game and not being able to miss is nice.  Sure you get better skillsets for singletarget magic damage eventually if that's what you're after and the fact that you can't uncap the job until you've unlocked Bravebringer is mildly insulting but I'm pretty much with Elf on this one, it's not good by any stretch of the imagination but it's not even in the running for worst job.  4.5/10.

White Mage: Healing!  You want it because god damn do potions not cut it until you get Salve Maker.  Obviously worse than BD1's WM (nerfed Angelic Ward that you can't pass around like candy, bad M. Def, harsher on MT healing) but still great.  Like the fact that you don't need to uncap or even master the job for Arise too.  8/10.

Vanguard: Heroics is a pretty cool skillset and the stats do lend themselves to having a solid prescence... until enemies start spiking evasion and the job's bad accuracy bites them (and being spec'd for axes doesn't really help much) which kind of wastes the potentially absurd second speciality a bit, but really, you could do a lot worse that skillset.  High weight tolerance is pretty welcome in the world before Wind Talismans become storebought as well.  7/10.

Monk: okay but why.  I guess you can run BKB early but given how wild the durability curve is I'm rather skeptical of that being worth it,  Besides the job doesn't... really... offer anything else unless you really want to help the BM spam fire.  Also BM-level speed and those weapon ranks are more than a bit of a turnoff.  3.5/10.

Bard: Eh... I'd like the job better if the first two boss outings you had with it didn't counter Singing in extremely annoying ways and if it had synergy with any support skillset outside of Artistry.  And honestly it's higher maintenance than BD1 Performer with an overall worse skillset (although in fairness you'd probably want those defense buffs bad if you're LLGing the game which IN FAIRNESS is entirely possible to do by accident) so yeah.  I guess it's better in the Switch version where Singing buffs apparently didn't cap properly but that's not the version I played.  6/10.

Beastmaster: Oh look it's the degenerate broken class for degenerates and you get it in C1 lol.  I didn't even set it as a main after mastering it but jfc the only way the job doesn't break itself is if you make a point to ignore what it offers you.  9.5/10.

Thief: Godspeed Strike/10 is indeed a perfect summary and I do think pretty highly of it... just outside of the speed the class is pretty unpleasant to be in thanks to the frankly awful durability (bottom-tier in both defensive stats, mediocre AND E in shields?!) and mediocre offense so hope you got some orbs handy.  6/10.

Gambler: lolno.  This isn't even a level because More Money like BD1 Merchant was because money isn't even that much of an issue until you hit Mag Mell and want to splurge on Elf Capes or something and the passive doesn't even really give you that much anyways.  1/10.

Berserker: So on the one hand I basically agree with Elf here in that Savagery is kind of a junk skillset and the passives are the real draw here.  Just uh... terrible speed, terrible aim, more durable than Thief by virtue of HP but same terrible defenses... idk I found it to be more unpleasant to be in than RM and Thief and my inclination was to say fuck it and live with chugging Ethers.  Still deserves better than Monk of course (spoilers it's also going to be rated higher than the other two speed failures).  Probably Black Mage as well but I struggle to justify higher.  5/10.

Red Mage: So this job is about Thief-level unpleasant to be in (slower but more durable and with something resembling an actual skillset) and Revenge is pretty cool, plus hey both Chainspell and Disaster are some solid mastery perks.  Just, y'know.  GETTING THERE.  Also Nuisance has some fantastically junk odds on its own so it's not like it even has much of a niche until you do.  Also, you know.  Having to stay in RM for Chainspell until Bravebearer comes along and gives you SJS2.  I want to rate it above Berserker but I can't actually justify that beyond "I cared enough to be bothered to get Revenge for everyone, which is more than I cared about Berserker" but honestly that's probably difference enough.  5.5/10.

Ranger: So bows are pretty cool before you get actual dual-wielding and of course this is far more pleasant to be in when you get it than Berserker OR RM and you only need to care until JL6 for Counter-Savvy, isn't that wonderful?  Of course you drop it like a hot potato once you get dual-wielding setups worth a damn but honestly those facts alone put it above Godspeed Strike/10 in my opinion.  6.5/10.

Shieldmaster: Something of a slow burner since the job doesn't really come together until mastery but yeah I'm with Elf here, don't sleep on having a tanky healer/support to pull out of your back pocket when the going gets tough, there's nothing really dominating about it but generating BP via proactive durability is still worth a lot and it's not like the job is even that slow to begin with.  If Defender of the People didn't have an activation limit I might even be half-inclined to rate it at WM but it's still pretty good as is.  7/10.

Pictomancer: Well it's a speedy mage carrier but the weapon ranks and the bad weight tolerance kind of speaks against it, as does the atrocious durability.  It does at least have better debuffs than Vanguard as noted but that's still not exactly wonderful.  You want to be in it anyways because SJBPS is cool but otherwise it exists.  6/10.

Dragoon: The skillset is only okay (Sonic Thrust is a better Mow Down that still doesn't need SJBPS, Angon is Mercy Smash that can kill things and pierce default, Full Force is cool for randosweeping at least) but oh boy what a carrier!  Above average P.Atk and Aim!  S in spears at a point where spears start getting really good (and A in swords if you're not into that for some reason)!  Thief-level speed!  Free dual-wielding upon mastery haha are you -kidding me- sure you marry yourself to the fact that Wind Talismans are basically mandatory but you were doing that anyways so who cares, if anything I'm slightly higher on this one.  7.5/10.

Swordmaster: And this one I'm somewhat less impressed by, although maybe if twohanding buffed Aim like dual wielding did I'd be higher on it.  The counter gimmick has the same issue as Defender of the People does in that MT spoils it and apart from the higher P. Atk I like it less as a carrier than Dragoon since it needs mastery to really come together (and even then it's competing with Dragoon's lol I actually have 6 SP).  There is something to be said for Solid Stance/Indiscriminate Rage/Multitask for randosweeping but eh that's a lot of effort even if BD2's randoms are overall more relevent than 1's.  6.5/10.

Spiritmaster: Clearly worse than BD1 Spiritmaster but still pretty cool, even if the weight tolerance is utterly dismal and Purebringer makes it kind of annoying as a carrier once you master the job.  And then SJS1 helps break the game.  8/10.

Oracle: So on the one hand In One's Element is actually a kind of cool specialty and you can get up to some shenanigans with Elemental Supplement.  That's... about all the nice things I have to say about the job though.  Appallingly bad to be in until mastery (sub-Berserker!  this should not be said lightly!) and I do not at all think highly of a skillset that revolves around low-duration single target buffing when the buffs aren't even that strong to begin with, and unless you're planning on shenanigans there's just so little reason to care.  3/10.

Salve Maker: On its own it's basically a better WM that has more overhead, which is fair.  If you cared to use one as a mage carrier (you probably don't, but if) it's not shameful at it once daggers start getting legit.  Then you master Phantom and suddenly LOOK AT ALL THIS STATUS IMMUNITY THE GAME DOESN'T HAVE holy shit, like it's obviously not effortless but jeez they didn't think this one all the way through and then SJS1 erases the skillset's overhead as long as you have the 40 MP to pop Results Guaranteed what in the actual goddamned fuck were they thinking.  8.5/10.

Arcanist: It's a job designed around randomsweeping with terrible speed and punishes you for using it to sweep randoms unless you embrace the Mandatory Double Wind Talisman lifestyle, at which point you just cry when wind gets spoiled instead.  Maybe if Magic Amp was available before uncapping the job I'd put it above Freelancer but as is this job can fuck the hell off.  2/10.

Bastion: It's like you fused Vanguard and Shieldmaster together and ended up with something less than either of them.  It's far from shameful but there's not much reason to actually care unless you love the prevention skills.  4/10.

Phantom: Hell yes I would like to have unpenalized dual wielding in this game please accept my blood sacrifice Mandatory Double Wind Talisman God.  Worse carrier than Dragoon until you master the class but holy shit who thought up Results Guaranteed, it's not at the same level of Beastmaster because C1 vs. C4 but god this is disgusting enough for a 9/10 anyways.

Hellblade: Mage carrier because you have more attractive physical ones.  Deal with the Devil is pretty clearly a losing trade even if it isn't catastrophic and the only reason to care about staying in the class is Surpassing Power but in all honesty if you're not doing portal asterisk fights you're probably okay with living with the normal damage cap.  More attractive to use than Bastion I guess but you're still probably just messing up a good thing by the time you get it so eh.  5.5/10.

Bravebearer: Hell if I know how to rate it, that's a lot of power the game's handing to you but it's Athos clause stuff as Snowfire said.

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2022, 05:16:12 PM »
EO:Nexus ranking.  Just a quick off-the-cuff rating, for something more in-depth I'd have to do a dungeon-by-dungeon/boss-by-boss analysis of each class ala the FF5 breakdown.


Hero: The sole new class to Nexus, Hero definitely makes a strong showing.  Durable, not too slow, bonus passive healing per action, and lots and lots of damage potential.  Hero's skillset covers five out of six elements, and most of them find use in some capacity.  Afterimages, however, are what make this class really shine.  Double damage for free (more than double with Force Boost), plus doubling the regen.  They only have two big drabacks; crap LUC making them statusbait, and that they don't play well with anyone competing for that sixth slot.  8/10.

Protector: Exists for the sole purpose to make your party hard to kill, and they do their job admirably at that.  They're a bit slow to start (Novice only gives them the basic guards and taunt), but once they get past L20, their utility shoots way up.  Walls are one of the two ways to reliably deal with postgame bosses, for better or worse, and the combination of party-wide coverage and Shield Flare can lead to utter absurdity.  8/10.

Survivalist: The game is really not clear in what Survivalist is good for, but I've been able to gleam a good idea from a playthrough.  Survivalist is best described as a combination exploration support and evasion-tanking facilitator.  Their damage is good enough for randoms, but in a bossfight, they're going to be making sure the other guy *isn't* hitting you, reinforced by their Force Boost and Force Break.  Perhaps their best use, though, is simply in helping with exploration; Risk Perception can throw a wrench in anything relying on a surprise attack, and Resuscitate is the single best heal in the game as long as you can use it (which is out-of-combat).  All of these add up to a far better package than you would expect from the numbers and abilities, though still honestly a 6/10 overall.

Medic: Medic, I feel, is at its strongest in the earlygame, for one particular reason: they are the only class with native novice-tier combat revival (and one of a few with actually *reliable* revival).  The heals are also remarkably strong and fast, and they can debuff defenses as well.  Once Master tier unlocks, however, they get perhaps their greatest survivability additions: Overheal and Deja Vu, enabling their healing to change from reactive damage-fixing to proactive semi-passive survival that doesn't even need much attention paid while they then tend to staffwhacks.  Fairly strong option overall, I'd give them a 7/10.

Ronin: Ronin damage is absolute bullshit.  Highest STR in the game, using the highest ATK weapon class in the game, and they even have multiple viable builds-go all-in on damage via Upper Stance for utterly *absurd* degrees of pain, or add infliction and a deceptive amount of tankiness via Clear Stance.  Whichever way it goes, they are absolute monsters, and Issen is perhaps the best of the encounter deletion Force Breaks.  Katanas even benefit them just by giving some crowd control options with their many powerful itemcasts.  8.5/10, and that's about as high a rating as I'd be able to give.

War Magus: Oof.  Much as it was my favorite of the healers in EO2 Untold, these guys got hit with the nerf bat pretty hard.  Their stats are nothing special, they struggle to beat an Imperial in a footrace, and their damage and healing alike ultimately average out to unimpressive.  The main saving grace they have is that their bindcuts have the highest base rates in the game (85% is no joke, even off of averageish stats), and the debuff slashes carry the single strongest ATK and DEF debuffs.  Fairy Robe's a solid emergency button and all of its offense ignores cut resist.  6/10 feels about right.

Highlander: Highlanders are largely a one-trick pony.  Thankfully, that trick is a really good one; huge amounts of stab damage, in both multitarget and single-target flavors.  Legion Thrust is one of those abilities that will carry a party through the entire game, and their damage takes a massive spike once they hit level 40.  Hero Battle and Turning Tide let them heal the party, often for full or near full, and mean you do not need to directly heal while they are going ham.  Add to that the strongest multitarget ATK buff in the game in Bloody Offense, and boom.  8/10, easy.

Gunner: Gunner gets the best general backrow damage in the game.  Double Action bindshots give them some strong disable utility as well, plus elemental coverage if they desire to go in on charge shots over Ricochet...and they can and will at times get three attacks in a turn under the right conditions (possibly four with the right subclass!).  The problem, however, is that they're slow, frail, and inaccurate; they die to a strong sneeze in the backrow, and that's when they're not prepping a charge shot.  6.5/10.

Sovereign: Arguably the best class in the game.  Sovereigns are *extremely* hard to do badly in general.  Arms buffs stack multiplicatively with attack buffs alongside providing elemental coverage to the party, and they have a myriad of defensive and healing options for your party.  Durability's not even a big issue for them, since they can sit in the back row with heavy armor and a shield.  Almost the quintessential support unit, the big drawbacks for Sovereigns are that they don't have much in the way of crisis management, and they really, really want to have full reign of your party's buff slots.  9/10.

Zodiac: Zodiac, for an extremely large portion of the game, exists to do one thing: blow things up with elemental damage.  And to its credit, that does work quite well starting out.  Its options don't really diversify much throughout the game, though, with one exception: Prophecies are the other big way to nullify elemental attacks, and the only way if you don't wish to use a Protector main.  They are, however, a lot like many of the backline damage-dealers, frail and slow.  The Prophecies edge it out for me to bump them up to a 6/10, for what it's worth.

Ninja: Ninja are a very, very bizarre class, possessing a variety of utility skills and a brutal status kit, having the earliest and least restrictive means of applying Petrify in the game.  Most notable is that while ostensibly a melee class, their special Proficiency skill allows them to treat *any* weapon as long range, and they can clone themselves.  This last one brings them in conflict with Hero, since both want the sixth slot.  Even without that, though, they get access to two of the strongest ailments in the game; Petrify and Panic.  The former needs to be built around, while the latter is an instant lose to anything that gets hit with it.  7/10.

Farmer: Only ranking these guys with regards to what they can do for a proper exploration team, not a gathering party.  Frankly, while I dislike them, they do have a few options.  Strange Seeds is a reasonably strong bind chance off of their gamebest LUC, and Lullaby is reasonably strong random encounter control.  For the most part, though, Farmers suffer from a lack of options.  Their best options in bossfights are both tied to their Force gauge; Item Echo status gases and Final Secret to refresh everyone else's Force Gauge, either giving three more turns of Boost or refreshing it after a Break.  Wide picks for their weapon options do mean they enjoy a variety of itemcasts, but the efficacy of these depends on where you are in the game (and they miss out on the strong Katana options).  5/10; the Force shenanigans make them pretty effective in the right team, but I really think Item Echo should've been rolled into Survivalist somewhere and these guys be given up for a different class anyway.

Shogun: Great Warrior, Front Command, Unified Effort.  These three together compose two of the scariest things in Shogun's skillset, and those are available from the word go.  From there on out, their katana skills also are all imbuable, a rarity among weaponskills.  They're deadly additions to any team either as support or as attackers, even with being really squishy.  Decoy Party is a good emergency Force Break in a bossfight to boot.  7/10, I'd say.

Landsknecht: Landsknecht is, to its detriment, a late-bloomer.  Get it past the slog of the first few labyrinths, however, and they open up to be an absolute monster of an attacker.  Extra points going to the Shield skill line of their tree, where Full Break off of Full Charge (their Force Break) will do utterly *absurd* quantities of damage.  Links are usable but not great, the real money's in the sword and shield lines.  They've got debuffs as well, but frankly, the big deal is the damage.  7/10.

Nightseeker: In competition with Ninja for the best status-slinger.  Nightseeker trades the gimmicks and evasion for extra speed and power, and whereas Ninja takes less to focus in on randoms, Nightseeker can do far more damage to bosses.  Unlike their ninja brethren, however, they cannot sit in the back lines if they want to use their weapon skills.  The real edge they get over Ninja is in Proficiency and Follow Trace, a pair of damage boosters that amount to a 2.25x damage boost to any target that is inflicted with an ailment.  Feels like an 8/10 to me.

Arcanist: Arcanist wants to be many things.  It wants to be a status-slinger, a debuffer, a healer, and a damage-dealer.  It is good at the first, passable at the next two, and laughable at the last - though this is admittedly less due to any fault of its own and more due to the fact that Almighty abilities have very few things that can buff them, due to classifying as neither physical nor elemental damage.  Its ability to inflict status is better than it would appear on the surface, considering Circles run off of its very solid LUC and will apply over multiple turns, and they have several solid picks for status (most notably, Poison Circle and Sleep Circle).  They are, however, *very* slow in a way no speed alteration can fix and need to be babysat.  6/10.

Imperial: My usual disclaimer here, I love Imperial.  It's why I feel that as a class, it's...lacking something.  Drives are impressive-looking from a damage standpoint (the average drive at max level will hit on par with some Force Breaks) but have long cooldowns without force boost, eat TP like no tomorrow, and put them at risk of getting oneshot before it goes off without some serious speed manipulation or protection.  Additionally, while Accel Drive does max out at 1200% non-elemental damage, well, see Arcanist for the difficulty with Almighty attacks.  6/10, and I feel like I'm still overrating them a bit.

Pugilist: Pugilist in Nexus is...uniquely flawed.  As a class, it is generally strong in the very earlygame and viable in the lategame- fast earlygame bind access for the former, and then actually having the SP to fill out its set in the lategame.  The problem with them is that in essence, for most of what they do, Nightseeker, Gunner, and War Magus can do as well or better with less buy-in.(outside of perhaps Final Blow, and that's a Force Break).  5/10 feels right.

Harbinger:Harbinger is, in some ways, the offensive counterpart to Sovereign.  Debuffs rather than buffs, attacks with status attached instead of healing...Harbinger's honest claim to fame here lies in the debuffs, particularly Wilting Miasma and Binding Miasma, which can make it easier for status to land, and harder for it to drop off.  The reaps exist, but are always going to be incidental or supplemental damage and status at best.  They're also comparably SP-hungry (guess it's a thing with EO5 classes), but have some utility, as much as that largely shows up in lategame or postgame.  6.5/10.  [EDIT]: If paired with a Sovereign or similar, Harby jumps up to 7.5 at least.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2022, 08:10:39 PM by 074 »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2022, 08:35:46 PM »
X-Com Chimera Squad:
So a note about this game: you only get 8/11 PCs on a single playthrough. I've only played this game once so far, so I'm missing 3 characters right now. I plan on correcting this once I do get that 2nd playthrough and play with the remaining 3 agents.


Godmother: Basically plays like a X-Com Assault Soldier. Run in, do lots of damage, then retreat somewhere safe when you need to reload. Godmother packs a heavy punch and she scales well into the end game due to her effectiveness being tied mostly to your research into weaponry. Some of her abilities are kind of eh but Ventilate is just so good. It has a guaranteed 100% accuracy with the damage range being the max of the weapon +4. Since shotguns were already the most powerful of weaponry, this ability just lets her vaporize like anything anywhere. Her durability is okay too, since she can get 15 base dodge, allowing you to get just below coinflip evade with the Mach Weave. This is good since she'll be front lining most of the time. She loses primarily in long range accuracy (because shotguns) and action economy compared to other offense cannons. Further compounding that problem are that her abilities chew through ammo really fast. So she almost always needs a magazine expansion as a weapon mod. 7/10

Terminal: Possibly game best PC? It's tough to say. Being the game's only medic is kind of a big deal since Terminal brings a spammable 4 HP a turn heal that only costs 1 Action Point. This lets you keep everyone topped off early, which like other X-Com titles, is the hardest part of the game. Later on, she gets some great support options such as Cooperate - allowing her to pass 1 AP to another ally of choice. The heal does weaken later since late game, enemies do about 6-8 damage so her 4HP a turn heal doesn't quite keep up. But early on, she's invaluable. And it's not like she's terrible late since her support options are still good. Just not as amazing as she is when starting out. 8.5/10

Cherub: Cherub is pretty representative of the game's difficulty curve. The early game and later on, when enemies can deal 2HKO damage, he is immensely valuable since his Kinetic Shield helps to give your guys an extra hit, which mitigates any healing you might need. He also builds charges when those shields break, which translates to a max 6 damage ITD AoE melee strike. This is enough to knock out most enemies and severely damage tankier ones. Later on, he also gains powerful support options with Supercharge and epic pistols that help bolster his action economy. In the middle though, he sucks. His main issue is his low damage and using Kinetic shield drains him of action points so he often can't actually attack - especially if he has to move. Overall, an above average unit with some faults but performs quite well when he's called. 7/10

Verge: Verge relies on longer engagements where he can mind link to many enemies to give him huge Hit and Crit bonuses. The problem is that those mind-link abilities aren't very good because they tend to wear off on the same round that they are inflicted. This makes him a weak crowd controller for the playstyle and without a lot of people linked together, he just ends up being an attacker with weak status effects. There are some gimmick set ups you can do here where you link Verge to 3 enemies+ then use the epic AR abilities to one round boss/tank enemies but in the amount of time and set up for that, you can just get one of the other attackers to bring it down in like a turn. Better early before everyone starts getting better but worse late once their skillsets all flourish. 6/10

Patchwork: If Terminal was the defensive support, then Patchwork is her offensive equivalent. There are a couple of different ways to build her but she brings a lot to the table. Mainly, she is absolutely critical if you decide to do the campaign with all the machines early because she is very effective them. Between hitting weakness and being able to hack them to bring them into your control (and she can do this at a distance), Patchwork does amazing crowd control. Her special is also a guaranteed 4 HP damage from range, meaning she is useful at picking off weakened enemies, or those under high cover. She also gains Stasis, which effectively knocks out a target for a turn or two before they return play. Just very very good. And unlike the risk with Terminal where the heals can get obsolete, Patchwork's control never does. She loses something in other campaigns, where there are less mechs, but yeah. 7/10

Torque: A utility player, bringing adequate offense, defense and miscellaneous options to the table. Torque has innate poison immunity, innate mesh weaving giving you the extra breach options and lots of base evade - 50% when she finishes her training. This can be stacked with her level ups and equipment to reach 100% evade, effectively making her an incredibly durable ranged tank. Sadly, melee attacks still have 100% to hit, so she isn't invulnerable. But unless she is stunned, she will either dodge or turned all ranged shots into grazing shots, doing minimal damage. On offense, Torque's training also gives her +20 Hit, making her accurate and SMGs are decent on damage. Poison is also incredibly nasty and she has a couple of abilities to land it. It does 2 points of damage at the start of the turn and it lowers mobility and Hit, which is great. Her other tools include her tongue pull and Binding an opponent. Both are useful for positioning/crowd control. Does everything decently but not the best at it - 8/10.

Blueblood: A somewhat late bloomer, but Blueblood is absolutely ridiculous. His personal passive lets him attack without consuming his turn if it is the first action he makes, meaning every round if you remain stationary, you can attack twice. He also has a personal command called Deadeye that increases the damage he deal by 50% with -15% Hit penalty. Early on, this hit reduction is balanced by the fact that there isn't a lot of good equipment to boost hit and Blueblood's base hit is still low since he is at base level. However, at end game, you can neutralize the penalty and with his high growth to Hit, he will basically be able to pump out a ridiculous amount of damage on his own. His other abilities, notably Cascade Lance, lets him shoot through a straight line without regard to obstructions ala Sharpshooters in Tactics Ogre. He is capable of taking out like 3+ dudes on his own turn and burns down bosses and tough targets in one action. An absolute offensive monster who's main hindrance is his slow start. 8/10

Axiom: The obvious tank/bruiser of the group. Like Blueblood, he starts off weaker but once he manages to get going, Axiom is pretty solid. He's less good on the human campaign as their damage seems to ignore defense. However, in the other 2 campaigns and against weaponry, Muton-man is a punching bag. Game highest HP, backed by high armor (defense), a chance to reduce any damage to 1 (tied to his Rage) and can regenerate health. His Rage mechanic is a bit of a gimmick, but it can be useful for positioning and the occasional bonus action. Once he's decked, you can effectively set him up in the middle of the map and let enemies wail on him since their guns will barely make a dent. Really benefits from having the Prodginy campaign completed so you can slot him with a Mindshield to prevent him from every losing Rage. I feel he's a better pick than Verge since Axiom has ways of getting his rage up quickly, but both are probably weaker than others on the roster. 7/10

Zephyr: I have a really hard time seeing what makes Zephyr even worthwhile to use. Having used her for only a few missions, I can already see some huge glaring problems. For starters, since she doesn't have a gun, she can't perform Overwatch meaning she can't cover you when you're retreating. Sure, her Parry skill nulls an attack, but its for only one attack, it is self-target and since you have to be in melee range to even do any damage, you'll often be left out in the open. Contrast this to Cherub's Kinetic Shield who can protect whoever you want, has way more range and buffs him when it gets broken. Pure melee has other issues such as no weapon upgrades, meaning as the game goes on, she'll get weaker because she can't get any bonus damage. In practice, this problem is way more of an issue because all gun users can equip ammo for added status and at least +1 base damage. Zephyr doesn't get this. Her skill tree does give her a +1 damage boost and can make her attacks ITD, but that bumps it up merely from 3-4 damage to 4-5 damage. It's a 100% but if that's the draw, just use Patchwork's GREMLIN Shock. It does Status, but since its from a pool of 4 and you can't choose it, its incredibly random. I was under the impression she'd at least be good in beginning like a Jeigan, but no. Even her start is awful because her base stats aren't anything special. She basically needed Torque's evade and Axiom's HP - then MAYBE. Otherwise, she definitely feels cast LVP - like I literally cannot think of a reason where she would actually be useful. 4/10

Claymore: Claymore has 2 main issues: His extremely low move of 9, which makes getting to new spots a challenge for him since he often can't move and attack without being out of cover. The second is that his AoE abilities cannot be made to ignore friendly fire. This becomes an issue since sometimes, there is just that one Civilian nearby and you have to weight whether its worth it or not to nuke them as well. Each civilian killed raises the chance of increasing unrest by 20%, so while killing one or two isn't detrimental perse, you can't complete ignore it. City unrest is what causes Anarchy to rise and how you lose the game, so this becomes a bit of an irritating bone of contention to Claymore. However, outside of those 2 things, he's basically unmatched in killing power except outside of Blueblood. They key to this is that Grenades in this game are a free action and Claymore has passives that a) grant him 2 of them b) let him regenerate 1 at the end of every skirmish. So every battle, he will have a free ability to toss a grenade out for AoE damage, which he can use alongside his normal bombs to create massive collateral/splash damage. The Shrapnel bomb only costs 1 action and when he is at max level, can be used more than once a round. This effectively lets him toss a Shrapnel, detonate it with a regular grenade, then throw a second nade or shoot with his gun. This combo will often down 2, sometimes 3 enemies. On occasion, he might even clear a room on his own. Shrapnel bomb can also be upgraded to cause Rupture (take more damage from every hit), which combos very nicely with Patch, Shelter and Verge's unevadable attacks. He's similar to Blueblood in that he's amazing late, but needs to get there. Worse than Blueblood though since you always have to consider potential friendly fire. 8/10

Shelter: Shelter gets a lot of flak for being the worst agent. I personally think this is unwarranted and that honor goes to Zephyr instead. Shelter's main issue is that his damage isn't very good and his promotions are pretty meh outside of his 2nd one. He's not easy to use mind, but he does create interesting gimmicks and set ups, which when done have a whole lot more impact than Zephyr. Relocating an enemy into one of Claymore's bombs, Blueblood / Godmother's overwatch or Patch's close range Voltaic Shock is pretty amusing. However, this Relocation effect can also turn delay an opponent, so with proper management, you can outkite certain enemies really effectively. He's also amazing for this reason on Escort or Escape type missions because he can easily shuffle allies closer to the EVAC point. Soulfire is a bit disappointing since it doesn't work on mechanical enemies and its damage isn't guaranteed at 4. This is on top of its 2 turn recharge, which means that you can't spam it like Patchwork's. However, it is unevadable, doesn't need any build up like Verge's and can still delay targets if you took that upgrade from his earlier promotion. Then there's Fracture, effectively granting you +1 PC when you use it. Sure, it's for one skirmish only. But of all the max level promotions, it's probably the most powerful one. He really needs a team built around him, which is his main weakness. Unlike the other top tier PCs who can be used regardless of the composition. 6/10

A more clear version of the ranking...
S - Good on any squad, any time, any campaign
A - Good overall, but have moments where they feel weaker
B - Good but shine mostly on one campaign or need some specific equipment to reach full potential. Average without those otherwise
C - Average. Decent or shine at certain points but other squad mates tend to be better choices, most of the time.
D - Okay, but clearly has issues and outshone in multiple areas.

S: Terminal
A: Blueblood, Torque, Claymore
B: Patchwork, Godmother, Cherub, Axiom
C: Verge, Shelter
D: Zephyr
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 03:40:50 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2023, 07:43:16 PM »
Fell Seal: Arbiter's Mark.

Okay, so to be fair I'm only going to be rating the Story PCs here, no generics.  I'll go into generics in the future but for now I'm only feeling good about them, so...take this with a grain of salt.

Kyrie: As the main character, and a fixed presence in every plot battle, you would hope she's good.  And...she is, honestly.  She's present throughout and thus has a long, long time to build up whatever classes she has - she personally could work with anything but her unique class is keyed to work on a hybrid ATK/MND build (you do not want to beeline for this class, it's very AP intensive).  Which incidentally includes some of the better classes in the game for sheer damage potential (Fellblade, War Mage).  The fact that she can't suffer Injuries (though you lose a 20% AP bonus if she falls in plot fights) is probably the biggest help here, though.  Honestly, she'd be a solid 7/10 but I think the "No Injuries" bumps her up to 8/10.

Reiner: Reiner...I'm a bit split on.  He was solid early on, but I can attribute that in part to him getting a quick start in Scoundrel, and high-level Scoundrel (and Trickster) is really good in the early parts of Fell Seal.  He's also an initial-joiner, and thus will benefit heavily just from being there a lot.  However, Spymaster is frankly built for someone who has in-depth knowledge of the game, and can take advantage of the toolkit it offers.  It is not a bad class per se; the first ability is unreliable, but self-target haste, skillset duplication (even of unique ally classes!) and the ability to repeat the last move used at a discount are all really good.  As is the teleport and Equip All (though I think the teleport animation is a bit long).  They also require you to build your party and playstyle around it, and thus is more designed for a second run of the game; without that, he's basically a generic with better equip options and no access to Badge Classes.  I'm going to give him a 6/10.

Anadine: If Kyrie's the ATK/MND powerhouse, Anadine's the Pure ATK monster.  She does leave for half a chapter but frankly her unique class is monstrous enough that I'm not going to fault her.  Demon Knight is capable of some of the heaviest hits in the game, alongside Templar and Ranger, and she can give herself ATK Up+Haste+Regen as well.  Seriously, no joke.  The backlash damage isn't even that bad.  What is bad is a couple of things here that seem minor at first.  First off, she's stuck at heavy armor for her unique class.  Following FFT's grand tradition, heavy armor honestly blows, and you want anything else.  Secondly, her unique class' best damage is locked to Dark, which is bad when that is the most frequently and heavily resisted element in the back third of the game.  Something something demons, this is more justification to get her diversification.  Still, I gave her Duelist and it led to absolutely hideous results once she got all the flourishes, and the insane ATK growth she gets access to is very nice.  Solid 7/10.

Yates: See my above point on Darkness?  Yates already starts in a bit of an uphill battle because, frankly, generics make better mages.  This is because Princess is by far the single best caster class in the game (Dualcast II, among other things), and that's a Badge class.  Yates' unique class is...bizarre, starting with Darkness and some insane healing boosts.  Oh, and Reanimate.  Probably the best thing he has access to is Reanimate, doubly so if there's enemies with revival (or you have items turned on for enemies).  The zombie it creates is nothing more than a giant sack of HP, but animating the dead target makes it unsuitable for revival, and I have zero problems with being able to sabotage enemy sandbagging.  Beyond that, though, he's only a good healer and an okayish mage.  I'll give him a 5.5/10, 6.5 if enemies have access to items or you're on a healer-heavy map.
[EDIT]: learned the DLC gives him Penumbral Mastery for some ungodly reason.  This is so good he jumps straight to 6.5/7 on conditionals respectively.

Bzaro: Hoooo boy.  So, let's dissect this a bit.  Bzaro is a very unique PC here, and probably either the most unique Blue Mage or the most transparent version of Gau I've seen.  His classes are basically varied monsters, and he unlocks them from being deployed when fighting them (or other Bzil who use those same classes).  More notably, he has no real growths, simply the stats of the monster "class" he uses, plus any mastery bonuses.  This sounds like it would be a lot, but considering that each monster class has roughly half the depth of a humanoid class, it means he'll get a solid set of options by the end, and together with the "no growths" bit means he is perfect to fill in gaps in your party.  He does join mid-C3 at the earliest, but due to how he worked, I had no real issues with integrating him whenever there were monsters to be fought.  Hell, due to the arrangement of some of these classes, it's possible to get skill combinations that you would need to take the entire game to build towards on a regular character.   Only issue you may have with him is that he needs to do some patrols for some unlocks (Zotzit aside, there's also Ercinee and Rakkerjak in particular.  Possibly also Blardger and maybe Bulldrake).  Honest 8/10, could even hit 8.5/10, but either way I nominate him for best character.

Katja: People making job system games?  Take notes, this is what a late-joiner is supposed to look like.  Katja doesn't join until mid-C4, but she makes it worth her while with high starting ranks in several classes, most notably Assassin - and I am pretty sure she starts with enough AP to immediately get Dual Wield.  Bounty Hunter synergizes perfectly with it as well, and it's not too hard to make her into an absolute crit monster.  Keep her skills for utility, double lances/heavy lances will do a lot for sheer damage on attacks.  Solid 7/10

Kairu: This, on the other hand, is how you don't make a late-joiner.  He joins later than Katja, has very little to offer outside of passive Slow on their unique skills (to be fair, Slow is one of the better statuses to have a 75% chance to just tack on), his unique class barely has any AP in it, and the only other classes I saw him start with any notable marks in were Fellblade and Mender, and I'm pretty sure that could have been off of retroactive leaked AP.  Frankly, he's not really worth fielding, especially considering the effort involved in trying to get his skills up to speed.  Oh and he's another sort who wants an ATK/MND build, but without the whole-ass game to build for it.  3/10, worst story PC.  Really, he's just straight up FFT Cloud except that you need him to get the Good Ending at all.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 07:25:15 PM by 074 »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2023, 04:11:22 PM »
Marvel Midnight Suns -
PC join times matter a lot in this game because some characters just join super late. This will be reflected in my post. Does consider DLC to help them some, but don't expect massive swing scores.

Hunter: The best character in the game, no question. Hunter has a ton of strengths, being the game's best healer, damage dealer, AoE damage dealer and so on. He/She is basically like SH Yuri. Does everything well although there are some builds that are much more favored than others. I found Hunter to be best played with a balance of Light and Dark cards so he can do both heavy damage and healing roles if need be. The balanced cards on the other hand are all a little too niche or cumbersome to be of much use. Good thing too, cause he's largely forced into every level aside from side missions. Very easily either a 9.5 or 10/10.

Iron Man: Ironing Man is a card hog. That is to say, all his abilities are very much focused around himself. This would be a bad thing if his abilities sucked. The good news for Tony is that they don't. Ironing Man has some of best damage dealing or cards that set up damage dealing in the game. This means, you WANT Iron Man cards most of the time. An excellent DPS PC that is only outmatched by Hunter. 8.5/10

Doctor Strange: Fittingly on the opposite side of the Spectrum is Dr. Strange. While Tony was all about damage dealing and getting his cards, Dr. Strange is a battery or support character and an excellent one at that. Most of his cards influence other cards in your hand or deck and Strange really doesn't use any Heroism points to do what he needs to. This means that he works in a lot of parties just to simply enhance their combat abilities to the next level. He wants to be working alongside some other good damage dealers to be at his best and hey, guess who the first two characters on this list I already covered can do? To make things EVEN better, all 3 of them join from the start so you can start working on their abilities and decks from the get-go. 8.5/10

Captain Marvel: On the other hand, of your starting characters, Captain Marvel ends up pretty mediocre. Like her whole thing is she powers up and gains a big offensive boost once you play 3 of her cards...but when she hasn't powered up yet, her cards kind of suck. This means that to use her effectively, you have to sacrifice 3 actions to do it and that's just not something you really want. Also, once she is powered up, she needs someone to tank and draw attention away because she loses this status if she runs out of Block. So yeah - not super impressed. If she can hit binary in some other fashion, she probably be more notable. About the one thing that Carol does have though is she's available from the beginning. 5/10

Blade: Game worst PC by a notable margin and I don't think this is up for debate. Blade suffers from similar issues as Captain Marvel in that you have to sacrifice actions but he's actually even worse than that. Because at least Carol will power up and then be able to do something. Blade on the other hand, focuses too much on the Bleed mechanic. Basically, in order for him to do anything resembling damage or anything at all really, he needs to first inflict Bleed on an opponent...and he can't even do that naturally without relying on risky low proc chances or sacrificing an action to do it. And once you do hit enemies with Bleed, your reward is...slightly better damage but not even up to the levels of Hunter and Ironing Man...when either of those characters could have just killed the enemy in the first place? Yeah, hard pass. His 2 Saving graces are: Early join time and DLC chars at least synergize somewhat with him, but god, what a mess. 2/10

Ghost Rider: Robbie is pretty decent but he is pretty much a late bloomer. You need to wait for him to get the good stuff before he starts carrying his own weight. Once he does, he still doesn't quite reach the levels of Hunter or Iron Man, but he makes up for this compared to them by having basically more AoE until SWitch shows up. This happens quite late as well, so there is a stretch where Robbie has a fairly unique niche. Unfortunately, a key part of his play style is sacrificing HP for benefits meaning he really needs a healer in the team to function. 6/10.

Nico Minoru: Nico is like the opposite of Robbie. Early on before everyone has developed abilities, Nico's much better because her randomized card rolls can do much better than your undeveloped cards...especially on damage. Later on, she shifts more to a support role versus damage because then people start getting better at it while hers still fluctuate, meaning she's a little less reliable. She is one of the game's only effective healers for a while, so that + good start gives her early game presence. And it's not like she's terrible late - just definitely doesn't keep up as well. Probably a solid 7/10 PC.

Magik: Speaking of 7/10 PCs, hi Magik. Magik follows the same path as Robbie in that her early game is very unimpressive. She's largely about positioning until you start getting Epic abilities...then she gets Limbo's Grasp and uh...lol. What a game changer. This single ability STACKS damage every time she uses it meaning that her damage basically grows as a level progresses. And since most story missions have at least 2 phases, this means Magik basically snowballs to start OHKOing everything after 2 to 3 uses. To add insult to injury, you can modify this ability to be FREE so it doesn't even cost an action. Absolutely dominant late game performance at the cost of early game slog.

Spiderman: Spidey's focus is largely on his environment, meaning a lot of skills and abilities in his deck deal with environmental damage. The good news is that this means Spidey gets more mileage out of each one and these actions don't use up your Card Play actions but rather your Heroism. So if you build a lot of Heroism, you can make Spidey multiple times in a round. The bad news is, environmental damage is largely fixed, meaning that late in the game, their damage is much less impressive and on higher difficulties, probably not even worth consider. Feels like a pretty average PC all things considered. 5/10.

Captain America: Oh boy. I think they took too much inspiration from the comics because Cap is all about inspiring his allies. He focuses on Taunting, drawing enemies away to him and grabbing other people's cards, which on the surface, you'd think would be decent. Unfortunately, because of this focus, a lot of his abilities have low damage and since the card draws are still random, you never know if just end up drawing more Captain America cards, which of course, don't do much on their own. The worst part is, the game's engine makes it such that cards that draw other cards cannot become a free action. So once you factor in card modding into it, Cap ends up significantly worse than Strange. He ends up basically a tank but isn't even great at that because his durability isn't that impressive and he lacks some key abilities that other tanks have. 4/10.

Wolverine: If you want a tank for the main game, Wolverine is it. Unlike Cap who doesn't stand out on durability, Wolverine is all about staying alive. His passive focuses on healing, he has a free self-healing card and he even has a "Revive once per mission" card that you can play at any time that doesn't use a Card play and doesn't count towards your Revival Count per mission. What this means is that Logan is really good at absorbing punishment compared to everyone else. The downsides are that, as a tank, Wolverine doesn't have much damage and it's not like enemies cannot be threatening in other ways. Notably, Wolverine is still open to status so you really want to buff his secondary Willpower Stat if you can. Tanks also lose their value late because then it becomes a game of who can kill things more efficiently and Logan sadly doesn't do well there. 5/10.

Scarlet Witch: SWitch joins in like the last Act without only 2 levels to go. This means unless you do side missions or saved the DLC for late, Wanda has very little development time. She's the best AoE damage dealer, which is probably why they saved her joining so late. But as a result, Wanda just feels largely underpowered compared to the rest of the team by then. Once you do power her up, she does do better and is fairly decent, but why bother with the investment unless you like her or she is a forced deploy? 4/10.

Hulk: And you thought SWitch was bad. Hulk has even more availability issues because he's only available before the final mission. If you are going pure efficiency, he basically has no improved abilities and is not very good. Still better than Blade but also doesn't cover his role well, which is being a bruiser tank. However, like Wanda, if you are willing to put time into developing him, Hulk is actually good. He basically takes over Wolverine's spot as a tank because Hulk actually has a good HP score and more importantly, HE ALSO HAS DAMAGE. Gonna go with the same score as SWitch here because their join times are pretty much identical. 4/10.

Deadpool: I have real trouble trying to figure out what Deadpool is supposed to be good at. On paper, En Fuego can be pretty devastating because it turns Deadpool into a growing snowball as he racks up more and more kills. In practice, it is basically a "win more" mechanic that doesn't do much. If you are just starting a level, where things are usually their toughest, En Fuego is  zero and ergo, Deadpool's abilities are bad. If you are late in the level where Deadpool has racked up a solid number of kills, then you are just winning and there is very little point. Most of the time he's going to sit at 2 En Fuego and that's just not good enough for much. He does have a flexible join time - that helps. But yeah, just not very good overall. 4/10.

Venom: Probably the best DLC character. Venim has the advantage like SWitch of having good AoEs without her problem of super late join time since his join time is flexible. His mechanic is that he gets weaker the more you use his abilities in a turn, but that strength is restored at the start of every round. In practice, you're likely not using more than 1 or 2 of Venim's abilities a round, so the downside is barely a downside. And his abilities are pretty good. 7/10.

THE MORB: Unfortunately, Morbius doesn't have a meter where he goes, "IT'S MORBIN TIME" and then Morbs all over the dudes. Instead he has a hunger meter and when it fills up, he gains enhanced abilities. Sound familiar? Oh but because he's a vampire, he also gets a lot of Bleed benefits too. So he's a mixture of Captain Marvel and Blade - 2 pretty bad characters. THE MORB unfortunately doesn't fair much better than them in my experience. 4/10.

Storm: No character is worse than Blade, but Storm comes pretty close. The big issue for Storm is that her abilities need you to wait for a round before they power up. When the best strategies in the game are often to make sure enemies don't get turns to start, that's a pretty big failing. To Storm's credit, she does have a card that overrides this restriction and once upgraded, many of her abilities either remove it altogether or give you significantly more payoff from waiting. Still, that means she has a rough start compared to the other DLC chars and even once she improves, isn't THAT much better than everyone else. 3.5/10.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2023, 10:10:42 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

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Re: Ranking characters by in-game use: obscura edition
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2023, 05:10:25 PM »
Trails to Reverie Rankings - Standard Difficulty as always. If they wanted to make things harder, should have done that and slapped Normal / Standard on that instead. Anyway, some notes here as well because this game is massive (also surprised no one else has made a post about it).

First, there are a total of 51 playable characters. No, that is not a typo. The playable cast basically is the size of Chrono Cross. As such, you can expect some overlap between characters, their strengths, weaknesses, etc. However, where Reverie separates itself is that there is a main game portion, where characters are usable usually only for 1 Chapter in a route and the Dungeon/Gacha/RNG exploration portion where everyone is usable. Being restricted to the latter (or RC portion as I will hereby dub it) makes you worse because you can't use that character for the main story. Another thing - the RC characters have somewhat "fixed" locks in that their availability at being unlocked and playable is randomized based on how far along the game you are. For example - Angelica and Alfin are available as early as Act 1. On the other hand, Toval and George are only available from Act 4. Why does this matter? Because the random join times of the RC characters also means that their MQs maybe unavailable for longer. This means if you really need a particular MQ to function and you are locked away from it for a good portion of the main game, that's going to hurt quite a bit.

Second, because we have overlap and the cast size is so big, this ranking will be slightly different in that characters will be sorted by tiers. I'm not writing 51 short paragraphs to cover the entire cast. In general though, no character is bad enough that using them actively hurts you. However, some characters are just heads and shoulders better either in stats, crafts, Brave Orders (BO), have unique builds and roles or are just otherwise more flexible to fit a party composition. I'll basically make note of the PCs that do stand out if they are notably good or notably bad. So a definition of the tiers and the traits that make up each one:

S: Can do something uniquely powerful that no other PC can replicate. Very Flexible, Always availability.
A: Does a particular role very well or has a niche that makes them very good under specific circumstances. Flexible. Good availability.
B: A good all around PC. Doesn't have particular notable strengths but also no notable weaknesses. Above average for flexibility. Solid availability.
C: Can do a particular role, but is generally outclassed. However, they typically have a saving grace or too that makes them better on occasion. Average availability.
D: Can either do a role where they are outclassed thoroughly or have a unique role but that unique role is generally not very strong. Low availability.
F: Outclassed in all manners with no saving graces. To top it off, is inflexible. Limited availability + RC Only.

If you want numerical values, think of it as a scale between 8 to 3. The few standouts probably have a .5 or -.5 added as in the other Cold Steel Rankings that I've done.

Finally, early game performance is more important than late game performance on the simple account of late game has a lot of options available and hence you have more tools to solve problems. Early game is more restrictive so being able to get you out of bind early means more when the number of solutions you might have are more limited.

With all that said, here's the Ranking Tier List. Other than the tier itself, ranks inside each tier is not ordered (I may do so at some point) SPOILERS AHEAD. Should go without saying:

EDIT - Now with some Random approved CHANGES

S Tier: Crow, Machias, C, Alisa, Rixia
A Tier: Rean, Lloyd, Wazy, Juna, Arios, Sara, Renne, Gaius
B Tier: Elie, Elliot, Nadia, Tita, Laura, Fie, Agate, Randy, Noel, Towa, Altina, Joshua
C Tier:  Tio, Ash, Emma, Estelle, Musse, Jusis, Sharon, Aurelia, Angelica, Lapis, Duvalie
D Tier: Alfin, Millium, Elise, Lechter, Claire, Roselia, Toval, Olivert, Vita, McBurn
F Tier: Kurt, Celine, Swin, George, Victor

Notables -

Crow - Crow combines a few things together that makes him probably the game's best PC. The two key things are that a) he's flexible in a variety of builds. You can either make him use crafts or cast spells and he's actually really good at both. This is owing a key part to his Self Buff. Azure Destiny has a big price tag on it, but it lasts for a whopping 7 Turns. This is particular powerful if Crow is a mage because he can equip one of those "Spells generate CP" quartz that a lot of PCs have trouble using and have no issue paying the 100 CP to keep it going. Even better, it's instant and has 0 delay. You throw this in with a Speed Casting Brave Order, and Crow can basically spam power tier 3 spells on his own in like 1 Clocktick and recover super quick. B) He's basically available from the get-go. He guests at the end of Chapter 1, and has a longer relevant Chapter 4 portion, but in between that time, he's wholly available in RC. This means Crow pretty much joins super early in the game and is basically always a relevant choice. By far and away his best appearance in the Cold Steel/Erebonian arc games.

Machias - Machias hasn't changed much...if any at all. The main thing now is - he doesn't have his early game suck because he only joins late into the game. That might seem like an issue at first once you consider availability. The issue is that once Machias joins, he brings with him his uber cheesy time infinite turn loop. It still exists in Reverie, but requires more effort to keep going. However, the existence of this thing means that you win when you get a turn. And that's crazy powerful no matter how you spin it. Even better, since you get him later, you will most likely have all the tools you need to play with the loop if you need an absolute bail out. LIke sure, Juna joins earlier, but the +20 CP cost on her GT Turn Shift is extremely notable and she lacks his Silver nodes for added EP boosting, so Machias is still better at it. And given it's more difficult to use, this is notable. Juna has her own strengths though, so you'd note she's still like a A tier PC.

C - Cheap Brave Orders are great because they are more flexible and more spammable. Of the different resource pools in the game, BP is probably the hardest one to maintain until late. What makes C so good is that he has one of the few Speed Casting BOs and it's only 2BP. That is extremely notable because spells are how you get the big damage out as combined with bells, you can cut their actual Clockticks down to like just 1 or 2 ticks. That alone would be pretty great, but the he has a 2nd BO that adds +30% Crit. Late game physical set ups are largely about Crit because S-Crafts just have way too much delay and their 100 CP Price tag means it's not super easy to always have one up. As a result, boosting crit and using lower CP crafts is what keeps physical attackers in the game and C has an extremely cheap one that works super well with the big crit monsters (Rean, Arios, et al). Oh, and his stats are well balanced so like Crow, he can fit into a wide variety of parties and he joins pretty early (like Act 2 or something). So yeah he's good.

Alisa - Heavenly Gift is really stupid. It's a huge AoE move that adds: CP Regen, HP Regen and Insight. So it's great on offense and defense and since it's a craft - instant. This is great for any party and makes Alisa like the best battery for virtually any team, but especially those that are physical heavy. You'd think after 4 games, they'd reign this thing in, but when you have so many infinite loops in CS4, I guess fixing that was their focus first. Funnily enough, physical attack Alisa might also be a thing if you want her to be a BP Battery as well. Alisa's 2 Fire, 1 Space locked notes means she has extra slots for Crit, so she can get a pretty high crit rate going, Cast Chrono Burst and generate 2 BP a turn if needs be. Not her best build IMO and she's primarily caster focused, but damn is Heavenly Gift ridiculous.

Rixia - Both Llyod and Rixia got upgrades once I considered more about late game performance. Rixia got the bigger boost though because she's truly a terror in terms of what she can do. As Random noted, True DragonCraws is a 2-hit craft that also adds Delay on it. This coupled with the fact that it only costs 40 CP means it's an extremely effective way of neutralizing randoms early on. Late game, it falls off a bit due to damage and set ups, but because of Rixia's self-buff, it still manages to sort of keep up, which is a testament to how good it is. Her self buff is also real silly. Stealth is something I didn't explore much for the main game, but if post-game is any indication, it does stupid things. Aside from granting you one turn immunity, the Auto-crit means that Rixia can pump out damage like no other...hers even gives +Strength on use. The real stupid thing is that if you equp a +CP Quartz and a +CP Accessory, it is possible for Rixia to stay in Perma-stealth. And sure, Fie can do this too - but she can't pump out the same level of damage when compared to Rixia given her self buff doesn't boost strength and lacks the CP efficiency that Rixia has on crafts.

Rean - Rean's gone through a lot of changes across the Erebonia arc but he's been solid to game best PC range in every game. Reverie is a similar story. Rean's main selling point here are his cheap and efficient BO's. They work for both mobs and bosses and just give you a nice straight damage boost or damage reduction for anything you end up eating. The low BP costs of gives your party a lot of ways to switch gears mid-fight if need be without needing to hard commit. His craft selection is also very strong in general - with the ability to slowly ease into his heavy costing ones as the game progresses. Enlightened Spirit Unification is the physical equivalent of Crow's Azure Destiny. The downsides are that because Rean is mostly a fighter, he can't really maintain it without a battery (HINT: Use Alisa) and it only lasts for 4 turns max. Like all fighters, he wants to go in on Crit late in the game. This isn't too much trouble since Rean is tied for the 2nd best Crit in the game so you may gravitate to it naturally. It's only a few minor percentage points, but that + his one fixed fire node make a difference in how effective he is at this role. Helix have an extra Crit boost helps too.

Llyod - Two things I forgot about Llyod initially. One was his Burning Heart Craft, which maxes out a bunch of buffs on use, grants +1 CP and is instant. This would already make him pretty good as a B tier sub, but the other thing I forgot was that his upgraded S-craft has an A in Break rating. All of a sudden, he can random sweep really effectively too. In fact, if you can spare the CP, Burning Heart into S-craft melts pretty much everything. So while his primary and best role is to do some tanking, Lloyd's secondary roles are pretty strong too and he can do them well enough that even if Tita takes his main role, he still comes out okay (whereas Tita is kinda of hardlocked into being a tank due to her sluggish nature).

Arios - Uh yeah, so take Rean's Arcane Gale, give it *even more* range, then cut the CP cost by 1/2. That's Arios' bread and butter move in a nutshell. That would already make him pretty good, but then he backs that up with some innate evade and the highest crit rate in the game. And while crit differences are most minor, the little extra bit does help. When coupled with his multi-hitting, cheap as heck Twin Arcane Gale craft, Arios deals solid damage and can be a BP generator against mooks. His other 2 crafts aid for boss fighting so he's got that angle covered too if need be. Like Rean, pretty much physical focused but he's really good at it.

Estelle - Estelle has a lot of issues on the surface. 2 crafts only on a physical attacker means she's limited on options and she doesn't have good caster stats to turn into a straight up mage. This would be quite bad but then she's also very ST focused - in fact, her S-craft is also ST. In a world where most people have MT S-Crafts, this is a pretty big additional strike. HOWEVER, one really cool thing is that Reverie has a series of quartz that give really good stat and damage boosts at the cost of turning the range of all your crafts to pretty much ST only. These quartz are hard to use for most characters because no one wants to sacrifice that much range like Arios. HOWEVER, Estelle doesn't really care about the drawbacks because her key crafts are both single target. They have a ton of power and break potential but the real kicker is it only costs 40 CP. So you can leverage her weakness and give those trade-off quartzes to her, meaning she actually has way better power and speed then what you would expect. She's still stuck with those major downsides of being very ST focused and one-dimensional but now she packs a significant punch. You would expect her to be much worse being that hamstrung but a combo of Barrage -> Barrage -> S-craft pretty much breaks anything in-game. So, she still manages to be C tier at worst IMO, despite 2 crafts only. What a world.

Randy - All the best physical attackers all have something unique going about them, whether it's Rean cheap but effective BOs, Arios' crazy bread and butter craft or Estelle's focused single target punishment. Randy is no exception and he has a couple of real strong points that propel him above the other physical attackers. The first is his AoE attack Craft. Crimson Gale costs 60 CP, has good power behind it and covers a wide area. This makes Randy an excellent sweeper for mooks and better than Laura, Agate and Ash for example because the CP maintenance is 20 cheaper. Later in the game, Randy also receives an upgrade to War Cry - letting it give him 100 CP instead of 80 like Agate and Gaius. This singlehandedly turns him into the best S-craft spammer. When combined with Emblem and a CP gain on kill Subquartz, Randy also becomes excellent at farming items, which then translates to long term party power boost. His BO is also more flexible because it only costs 2. Sure, Laura's gives you more power but that's usually not relevant on junk mobs and a properly set up Randy can wipe most random formations with just either his or Rean's BO. So there's no reason to use a more expensive one unless for bosses - and then there are better tools.

Renne - Most of the arts casters in the game can be easily interchanged with one another because they largely don't touch their crafts. Renne is part of the group that is an exception to the rule because she also has a self-buff craft ala Crow that increases magic and speed at the same time. Downsides that make her worse are that 1) It's a cheaper craft at 50 CP but it also only lasts 4 turns instead of 7, has no defensive boost other than Magic Def and the boost is weaker 2) Hers is not an instant turn. She's also more wedged into being a mage, so she's relegated to a lower overall rank. Her BO is the same as Rufus, but costs 2 BP more because it also has a GT Turn Shift effect. This is often not worth paying for but can come in handy in a pinch of course.   

Angelica - Angie is a RC only locked character so you know that already means there are availability and investment issues. The caveat to this is that on Angie has a few things that make her pretty good, especially if she's the first one unlocked from a Sealstone. The big one though is the Emblem MQ. While other PCs can use it as well, you need to recruit Angie before you can take advantage of it as I noted earlier, this is a case where if a PC joins you early, you get to use their stuff earlier and Emblem kind of snaps random encounters on their back because of the consistent regen to HP/EP/CP pools. This thing lets you random sweep very effectively while also letting you farm items with a decent amount of efficiency. So that's already kind of great. Angelica is also a solid PC overall, with good locked nodes, decent crafts, and a decent BO. These things combined means she's a great addition to your roster - albeit one that doesn't go past C tier due to the restriction and gacha nature of the RC, but can't win them all.

Aurelia - She deserves a special mention as well, because while she's only available starting Chapter 4 and on, Aurelia has the added benefit of also Guesting in Chapter 3 for a decent period of time. This helps diminish her RC only status a bit because she ends up having more availability than a RC only PC. And while she's on the team, she's great. In Chapter 3, she's decked out with end-game stuff so she has a significant leg up on performance and it also means that on join, she's good to go out of the box. Her MQ is also one of the few consistent boosters for physical attackers and her skill set is very powerful. Excellent Self buff + great random sweeping tool + great S-craft is about everything you want from a physical attacker.

Vita/McBurn - Both characters have the same issues. Both are kind of the best at their respective jobs (Mage for Vita and Fighter for McBurn) but they are hamstrung by the fact that they join just so late. This is further compounded by the RNG scale where you might not unlock either until the last two Gold Sealstones and that means you won't get either onto post-game. So whatever contribution they could have becomes extremely limited which tanks their rating pretty hard. This late join hurts in other ways as well. For example - one of Vita's main selling points is that at Support Link level 6, she gains Arts Support IV, which increases the magic damage of the spell being cast by her partner by 2x. No other PC in the entire game can do this, which makes Vita obviously the ideal mage support. However, if she joins as your last PC? You're unlikely to ever see it because at that point, how much of the post game is even left? The one piece of good news is that both characters come spec'd out with a full set of quartz (and in McBurn's case, his equip is fully upgraded) so there's no investment needed. Just that they contribute for such a small period and being completely RC locked hurts.

Celine - I bumped Celine down on this revision because I think post-game stuff really does her no favors and she's already in a pretty bad place. Lack of a S-craft hurts. I already mentioned this in Azure when you got Doggo for a bit and he didn't have a S-craft because it locks you out from an option which is to burst damage for a final stretch of a fight. Made further worse in-game due to the event wheel. Her crafts aren't anything notable either other than the 3 BP generation one for 100 CP. It makes her an interest BP battery since on paper, it's more efficient than Llyod and even Juna. But it doesn't boost anything else and Celine just ends up being an easily replaceable caster. She doesn't have any real selling points here compared to others (Random and I already talked a bit about Nadia, Tio and Towa to some extent) so bottom of the ladder she goes.

Kurt - Kurt deserves a special mention because he is a super early joiner but is just so bad on so many levels. He's a physical attacker, so that already makes him not great on damage. As an evade tank, he doesn't have Fie/Sharon/Rixia level base evade and he lacks the range compared to Sara/Fie/Sharon if you're trying to make use of Sirius. Then his BO is still really bad - 3 BP for a niche effect doesn't fix it because for 3 BP, I can also use Fie's Zephyr Tempest and that lasts for 10 turns instead of a paltry 4. To add insult to injury, the times when he is available other than Chapter 1, he has to actively compete with better evade tanks or Delay spammers so he basically lacks a real reason to be used. Just oof. Kurt really went through the ringer from CS3 to Rev.

Swin - See Page 4 where Random and I break it down. But to summarize - Swin's big gimmick is "Marking" a target, which then on a follow up turn allows him to auto-crit when attacking physically. This means he has a 2 turn set up for a guaranteed 1 BP return and some extra damage. This is often not worth justifying using him because it is just too slow. Compare that to Lloyd's Burning Heart, which is instant and gives you 1 BP on use, and you can see why this is problematic. The main issue here is that Swin and ONLY Swin can trigger the marking...otherwise he would still be kind of clunky but can at least work as a BP battery. As is, he's just a delayed physical attacker with not much payoff. And the rest of his stats have issues too. Notably, he's supposed to frontline but he has bad HP and only 5% innate evade. This makes him very difficult to use as a dodge tank for the main story and not enough durability to actually eat more than a few hits. The only reason he might be better than Kurt is because Kurt joins in a group with lots of other good party members. On C's route? You're often running with only 4-5 characters tops until Chapter 4. So being a warm body there matters more, but is that worth a tier difference? Probably not.

George - So being a Reverie only character that joins in Chapter 3 at the earliest hurts your availability - Strike 1. Then he adds onto the fact that his crafts are really all over the place. I literally cannot tell you what he's good at just by looking at the descriptors in game. I guess he's supposed to be an attacker of some kind but he has a random magic craft, a scan craft and his actual attacking craft only has medium area coverage - Strike 2. As for the final nail in the coffin, his Brave Order is super overpriced. With Perfect Guard already, there's no reason to be paying extra for Magic Absorption. If you wanted that, Emma's much cheaper at 2 BP. Oh, but it lasts 10 turns! Unfortunately, defensive brave orders such as this one are probably better at low BP costs because you want to be able to switch BO's once the coast is clear. So what exactly are you paying 5 BP for? Strike 3

Victor - Victor's big problem is that he's basically a copy of Laura except he's worse because he is RC locked and joins randomly from Chapter 3 onward. This means that his nodes are not fully unlocked and he lacks good equipment that some of the late joiners like McBurn or Aurelia have. That pretty much sucks already since you basically have to invest a bunch of resources just to bring him up to speed. But even once you do, you're not really getting anything new out of it because he has the same craft list as Laura more or less. As a result, there is very little reason not to just *use* Laura one chapter later. Sure, some of his crafts are cheaper on CP cost but then he doesn't Laura's Lion Rush - a key craft for her since it has reduced delay - and it's not like his stats or locked nodes are that much better otherwise. Like Kurt, he just falls into the realm of "but why bother". To add insult, his BO is useless too.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2023, 04:33:16 PM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself