Author Topic: What Games are you playing 2016?  (Read 122421 times)

jsh357

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #100 on: January 13, 2016, 08:48:41 PM »
I personally think it's fine. Leveling up isn't so critical for early game mobs, not nearly as much as upgrading gear, which you get plenty of shards for. The first time you're likely to need level ups is against a boss that just killed you, which may prompt you to return to the dream to stock on supplies and notice the doll anyway. In fact you may not even be aware levels are a thing before this point if you're new, and finding cleric beast isn't exactly a stretch, so I think the wait on the doll is acceptable. You aren't meant to understand what insight does until way later in the game, at which point you may realize the doll appears when you have some if you happen to run out. Then the narrative trick becomes cool, so I think it's worth any clumsiness for new players. It's also a very minor issue in the scheme of things anyway.

Grefter

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #101 on: January 13, 2016, 09:06:19 PM »
Yeah you can upgrade with all those souls you got on your way to the boss.  That you just died at.  And now has all your soulsin their arena.

Cleric beast is behind 2 werewolves and past the square I want the Mad Max's Knowledge at, which is a huge path of overlapping patrols.  There is shortcuts of course, but you need to find them and know that is your destination.

It is small in the grand scheme of things but it is your first hour or more.  It is literally your first impressions of the game and it can get fucked.
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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #102 on: January 13, 2016, 09:18:11 PM »
I found the beginning of Bloodborne extraordinarily rough even as someone who's spent way too much fucking time playing Dark Souls games. It's always struck me as being extremely unfriendly for series newcomers. My favorite part of the game is probably the middle part where you've basically figured out how the game works and have a build coming together but before it just throws up its hands and goes lol aliens. (Cathedral Ward/Old Yharnam/Hemwick/Forbidden Woods, basically.)

I'm pretty sure Rhea in Dark Souls is the most egregious example of punishing the player for not being psychic. Hope you bought all those miracles before Petrus killed her! Most everyone else in the game cannot go hollow or otherwise disappear until the player's bought their entire inventory. Laurentius can, but as pointed out, this won't happen until you've found a second tutor to replace him.

There are NPC quests in Bloodborne you can miss out on because you didn't know the timers, but I don't think any of it is crucial content. Eileen's quest is the main example since it requires you to backtrack during specific windows (I definitely fucked this up when I first played the game). You'll get her weapon regardless of how her quest ends, though. Just speaking strictly in terms of tangible in-game rewards, most all that you miss by not dealing with NPCs properly is just gestures (which are admittedly very nice in Bloodborne but don't affect your survival chances any) and covenant runes (which are trash).

Besides, nothing you do in that game will significantly change the fact that everyone you meet is pretty screwed anyway.

I should also add that if anybody wants to co-op anything I am always fucking down for that because I don't have a problem at all you guys really. (Password-matching co-op in Bloodborne ignores character level, it's nice. Now if only they could match this up with Dark Souls' 2 ease of actually finding your fucking friends, From would finally have a reliably user-friendly system for enabling teamwork.)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 09:27:27 PM by El Cideon »

Laggy

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #103 on: January 13, 2016, 09:28:51 PM »
I think it's rather easy to fall into the trap of looking at this from people who have played Fromsoft games before, most of us to absolute death. What you say is true for us, but Bloodborne (or any Souls game for that matter) wrecks new players and from the perspective of trying to get new people to actually stick to the game, hiding an expected and obvious mechanic (leveling up) can cause people to quit or at least get massively frustrated, which I just don't find good design.

Honestly if all you cared about was the narrative trick and absolutely wanted to tie in the level up mechanic to it as well then I would've preferred you just gain zero echoes whatsoever beforehand to give a hint that something was up, and make vials more plentiful early on or something. The psychological aspect of just dying repeatedly, losing your currency and not having any idea what you're supposed to do with it sounds cool to us Souls veterans who know the formula inside-out and gives us the feeling of 'zomg what is going on!!!', but as an introduction to a new player, it just feels like progress being lost repeatedly without any way to compensate for it, which I cannot advocate.

EDIT: Also as an addendum, there are plenty of obtuse and stupid things like Cid mentions, Rhea from DS1 and whatnot that would never be obvious on a blind playthrough that locks you unnecessarily out of stuff. It's important to note that while I don't like these mechanics, they are 1) also very minor in the grand scheme of things and more importantly 2) come WAY later in the game and not right at the start, and none of them are as impactful as "how the hell do I level up?" Yes, the Insight gate is a hurdle that lasts very briefly relative to the rest of the game and can't permanently fuck you over, but it is also at the portion of the game where a new player's impression is most influential to whether they actually play the damn game or not. That's kinda important!

What I guess I am trying to say is that after enough dabbling with game modding/development and being in the industry I put an extremely high premium on making sure a player doesn't get discouraged at the introductory sections of games and think it is a worthwhile endeavor to compromise some narrative or artistic touches (you don't need to discard them, you just need to watch how much you tie it into gameplay) to make sure they stay onboard. Even for a relatively hardcore series like Souls series, even with their known reputation. There's plenty of room in the game to go hog wild with that.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 09:36:50 PM by Laggy »
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

AndrewRogue

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #104 on: January 13, 2016, 09:40:49 PM »
And yet this all still beats World Tendency Hidden Secrets. <_<

Laggy

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #105 on: January 13, 2016, 09:43:30 PM »
Also to Cid:

Despite 'lol aliens' Bloodborne is the first Souls game where I haven't hated the final stretch of the game. I had a very similar experience with finding the earlygame brutal, and getting solid footing by midgame and coasting from there.

I loathe DS1 post O&S (minus the DLC, for all that I don't honestly find Royal Woods and the Abyss all that compelling), and DS2 after the Great Ones (with the exception of the Undead Crypt, maybe. Dragon Aerie/Memories/Shrine of Amana can all fuck off.)

On the other hand I genuinely liked the nightmare, Upper Cathedral, etc. Some very tense moments there that were enjoyable.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Sierra

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #106 on: January 13, 2016, 10:05:30 PM »
I like parts of lattergame DS1 but agree O&S is easily where the game peaks. DS2 seriously tanks after the Old Ones are dead and you're stuck on a linear path, but at least I have DLC zones (2/3 of which are outstanding, Eleum Loyce being the pretty meh installment) to look forward to after slogging through memory sequence trash. I do kinda like the castle but this is partly for meta reasons (it's a nice inversion of Anor Londo). This is all kind of hilarious because the lesser part of DS1 is KILL THE GANG OF FOUR but that's the better part of DS2. Bloodborne, endgame, mm. I dislike Byrgenwerth and I hate Unseen Village. But Nightmare does have some cool bits and after that there's DLC (From DLC always adds some of the best bosses and tends to be scaled for endgame builds, so I usually reserve it for exactly that).

And yet this all still beats World Tendency Hidden Secrets. <_<

I generally presume that the lack of me defending Demon's Souls ever in any context is conspicuous from absence. Tendency remains the worst idea From's ever had.

Fenrir

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #107 on: January 13, 2016, 11:41:03 PM »
I got stuck for a while trying to fight skeletons in DS1 and finding what the fuck I should do in DS'S'S after Phalanx. I was down with it.
This viewpoint is way different than just "GIT GUD" (Fuck trying to beat Kalameet, or the half health chalice dungeons bosses, even if I did it) I just think that these games are way more than just circlestrafing gothic adventures with supertough PREPARE TO DIE enemies.

They're also about a deliberate atmosphere, not unlike a survival horror game. Information is hidden, things can go wrong, you don't have entire control over things! It's fine! Don't check a wiki!
Saying that Yurt is a Bad Thing because he kills all the NPCs is like saying that Silent Hill 2 is bad because it's difficult to control.
It makes you a bad person. Officially.

I agree that the Rhea event and World Tendency are BS though
No arguments there


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Dark Souls told all its story through environments and item descriptions
This tells all its story through environments and loading screen tips between levels. There are few regular hints and most of them are very weak advice at best ("Fish can roll", "HP will only drop when damaged")
But there are 500 other completely useless hints like "Steroids could do push-ups forever", "B-)", "Guns that hate Texas", and "Change is coming".
Brand new storytelling method

Grefter

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #108 on: January 13, 2016, 11:54:34 PM »
Yurt kills 2 useless npcs first.  Again, there is a buffer there that Insight gating doesn't.  Earlier Insight items that you still fight for is what I want.  Guds can still dodge stuff to get to a boss.  Bads can not have to try and scrounge for ways past 2 Beasts just so they can go die.

Rhea is indefensible and one more reason miracles suck compared to Sorceries.  Your two vendors only die if you clear shop in comparison.
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Laggy

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2016, 12:22:55 AM »
We can nitpick over the details of what we find crosses the line from deliberate information withholding to add atmosphere to just being an exercise in frustration but that is kind of missing what I was trying to get at.

Wiping to skeletons in DS1 or being lost as to where to go next isn't really a comparable issue to me. You are expected to die, there is immediate feedback (get better at fighting! Look for new paths to explore!) The SH2 comparison doesn't really strike the same chord either, SH2 IS a survival horror game that people are not playing as a zombie plank smashing simulator, bad controls are supposed to add to the feeling of terror or isolation.

For better or for worse, a huge appeal of the Souls series to many players is its reputation (and is indisputably marketed) of having hardcore, punishing action combat with RPG-esque elements (leveling, loot, upgrading, etc.). Locking a crucial mechanic like leveling up behind something that is not at all obvious is very different from accidentally killing NPCs from talking to them too much or releasing someone behind ten "DO NOT DO THIS" messages on the ground.

I don't even disagree that the whole way the game handles Insight aesthetically as a thing is cool and the doll coming to life is a neat touch to it. I don't think you need to dismantle the attachment to gameplay either (okay so you need the doll's help to channel your BLOOD ECHOEZ into tangible benefits). I just think the possibility of just totally missing it for hours and someone losing their currency and perceived progress over and over is at serious risk of driving new players away and not worth the cost there. This is not asking your player to be handheld through the whole process or sacrificing everything to be another streamlined AAA title with quest indicators, it is just minimizing the level of psychological frustration that can come so early as a result of it.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

AndrewRogue

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2016, 12:24:33 AM »
I got stuck for a while trying to fight skeletons in DS1...

That is hiiiigh on my list of annoyances with DS1. That game does a shit job of directing you towards the areas you can hope to clear as a new player.

That said, I do fully agree with Grefter re: Insight. While conceptually cool, locking leveling like that (with practically no indication of how to unlock it) was goofy.

jsh357

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2016, 12:26:20 AM »
We can nitpick over the details of what we find crosses the line from deliberate information withholding to add atmosphere to just being an exercise in frustration but that is kind of missing what I was trying to get at.

Wiping to skeletons in DS1 or being lost as to where to go next isn't really a comparable issue to me. You are expected to die, there is immediate feedback (get better at fighting! Look for new paths to explore!) The SH2 comparison doesn't really strike the same chord either, SH2 IS a survival horror game that people are not playing as a zombie plank smashing simulator, bad controls are supposed to add to the feeling of terror or isolation.

For better or for worse, a huge appeal of the Souls series to many players is its reputation (and is indisputably marketed) of having hardcore, punishing action combat with RPG-esque elements (leveling, loot, upgrading, etc.). Locking a crucial mechanic like leveling up behind something that is not at all obvious is very different from accidentally killing NPCs from talking to them too much or releasing someone behind ten "DO NOT DO THIS" messages on the ground.

I don't even disagree that the whole way the game handles Insight aesthetically as a thing is cool and the doll coming to life is a neat touch to it. I don't think you need to dismantle the attachment to gameplay either (okay so you need the doll's help to channel your BLOOD ECHOEZ into tangible benefits). I just think the possibility of just totally missing it for hours and someone losing their currency and perceived progress over and over is at serious risk of driving new players away and not worth the cost there. This is not asking your player to be handheld through the whole process or sacrificing everything to be another streamlined AAA title with quest indicators, it is just minimizing the level of psychological frustration that can come so early as a result of it.

Do you know of any players who gave up because of this? I mean, it's possible to debate the dumbness or not dumbness of it all day, but if the game succeeded regardless I think that's evidence enough it didn't matter.

Laggy

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2016, 12:31:46 AM »
Almost everyone i know who played Bloodborne was either familiar with the genre/series, or was a new player who DID frequently look up stuff (because they weren't used to obtuse Souls game design and got very easily frustrated). So it's kind of hard to say anything about that anecdotally.

The decision obviously did not prevent the game from being wildly successful, or for that matter, really good. I sing its praises. I am haggling on this particular issue pretty much from a game design/development standpoint (here are one of the few things I don't agree on what it did, and I think one of the bigger risks it took.)

Nowhere did anyone here say that this holds the game back from being successful, we are not putting Bloodborne on trial. I don't think that was the intended scope of the debate to begin with.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Fenrir

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2016, 01:00:42 AM »
Quote
Wiping to skeletons in DS1 or being lost as to where to go next isn't really a comparable issue to me. You are expected to die, there is immediate feedback (get better at fighting! Look for new paths to explore!) The SH2 comparison doesn't really strike the same chord either, SH2 IS a survival horror game that people are not playing as a zombie plank smashing simulator, bad controls are supposed to add to the feeling of terror or isolation.

It took me a real while to get the feedback that I should look for new paths to explore!
I don't see the point of judging something in regards to expectations of the established genre it most closely belongs to instead of letting it stay on its own merits; ie Souls games having elements of survival horror like design is verboten because it's mostly an ARPG?



I think the lack of surprising elements is what makes the Bloodborne DLC stand out less compared to the Dark Souls 1 / Dark Souls 2 DLC. The level design is the best, it is gorgeous, bosses are amazing, there are lots of content, would replay ++ etc, but there wasn't really NEW brilliant design to mess with my expectations, and playing it never felt too unsafe.

Laggy

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2016, 01:05:14 AM »
It's not that straying from the genre's an issue. That's a good thing! I've noted several times that I don't mind the idea behind Insight and find it cool. But there is a tradeoff and in this particular instance the tradeoff happens early during a player's most impressionable period of playing the game, where preconceived notions of what's available (in this case, leveling up) are stronger than later on. I don't think it's worth the risk of that much potential frustration. That's all p much.

I haven't tried the DLC yet because I've been meaning to sit down and just marathon it all, need to get around to doing that
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Grefter

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #115 on: January 14, 2016, 02:49:33 AM »
Like I also specified, you can even literally do the very thing they did.  Just do it with much broader margin for gaining that first Insight.  The run up to either boss is longer than the run to the first bonfire in the Burg.
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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #116 on: January 14, 2016, 04:24:04 AM »
preconceived notions of what's available (in this case, leveling up)

I guess to me this is the point of confusion.  Y'all keep talking like leveling up is an "expected"  "crucial"  "frustrating if you don't have it" mechanic, and I... kinda disagree?  I think the ability to meaningfully level up your stats with souls/echoes is only obvious and expected to people who are familiar with From games (and for whom the gating isn't as much of a problem because they know they're going to see YOU DIED a lot.) 

For someone completely new to the series, I'd think it doesn't really look like an RPG where you start weak and need to level up stats.  You get handed a trick weapon with a huge moveset, and a gun, and a lot of rewards for aggression, and a gun at the right time for criticals mechanic, all right away.  That looks more like Devil May Cry or God of War, where there is no stat leveling, only further alt weapons and moveset improvements, and you need to complete levels before getting them.  "Wow, the first level of this action game is really big and hard!" is a potential complaint... but I think not an insurmountable one. 

Though I also agree, having Madman's Knowledge available before boss insight is strange.  Would be better if those weren't there. 

Niu

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #117 on: January 14, 2016, 04:58:51 AM »
Meep, since you finished Type-0, do you want to know things that you may or may not want to know from me?
Also, I suggest doing a second cycle, since it opens up a couple of new plot scenes.

Grefter

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #118 on: January 14, 2016, 05:48:26 AM »
preconceived notions of what's available (in this case, leveling up)

I guess to me this is the point of confusion.  Y'all keep talking like leveling up is an "expected"  "crucial"  "frustrating if you don't have it" mechanic, and I... kinda disagree?  I think the ability to meaningfully level up your stats with souls/echoes is only obvious and expected to people who are familiar with From games (and for whom the gating isn't as much of a problem because they know they're going to see YOU DIED a lot.) 

For someone completely new to the series, I'd think it doesn't really look like an RPG where you start weak and need to level up stats.

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1547/15470456/2834516-body_1427135298.jpg

Character creation screen.  A list of stats with Level as the first one.
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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #119 on: January 14, 2016, 08:10:12 AM »
Trails in the Sky: SC- Just beat Chapter 2. After nightmarish C0 and C1 final bosses, C2's was super pathetic. Granted, the dungeon before it made up for it with it's annoying design! I think I had a good period of time before the first game and this one that the repetition of areas doesn't bother me (one big complaint I've seen about the game).
...into the nightfall.

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #120 on: January 14, 2016, 09:40:39 AM »
Like I also specified, you can even literally do the very thing they did.  Just do it with much broader margin for gaining that first Insight.  The run up to either boss is longer than the run to the first bonfire in the Burg.

And it would be less good?

All in all it's pretty generous compared to the 130 hours before you unlock classes in DQ7

Grefter

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #121 on: January 14, 2016, 10:55:52 AM »
On the same token, what does the game lose if what you decide is not a big deal was reduced?

Bravely Default - Elf challenge run of this really hit my itch to replay this.  I am not doing any challenges or playing on Hard or not using Norende.  Because as the other conversation will show, I am a fucking casual.

Also incidentally, rumor has it that the DQ7 remake will unlock jobs earlier?  (think that was passed on by Reiska in chat?)  So, you go DQ7, reach for that brass ring of some minor semblance of slightly less shittiness.
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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #122 on: January 14, 2016, 01:10:59 PM »
I need to play these trails games.

The Internet is not providing me enough info of the ones we did not receive.

I need back stories!
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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #123 on: January 14, 2016, 01:29:53 PM »
I don't consider it not a big deal, I consider it actually great. So the game would naturally be less good if there was less great.

Pocket Mortys: It's out. I cannot connect to the app store now. Will report later.

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Re: What Games are you playing 2016?
« Reply #124 on: January 14, 2016, 01:39:45 PM »
I started Pocket Mortys and it seems really bland so far, and the dialogue isn't very clever either. It's rock paper scissors but when there are multiple Mortys to fight and you take one out, you get the option to switch and you don't see what type the next one is. Maybe there is a logic to it but that seems like a bit of an oversight. I have only gotten two badges and none of the skillsets are interesting right now so thus far it is aping the beginning part of Pokemon where all you have is tackle and a few shitty stat buffs. It might get better but I'm not so sure. I do think the designs of the different Ricks and Mortys are at least evocative of the show.