Author Topic: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one  (Read 66963 times)

Cmdr_King

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #200 on: June 15, 2016, 08:24:41 PM »
Well, remember: Only about 10% of americans actually don't have a reliable party affiliation.  We're not talking about a large number of people who'd be 'center' between the american parties.  edit: that also ignores the about 2% of people that are likely affiliated with the non-major US parties, so 'center' is likely about 7-8% of voters by this metric.

Which makes sense because there's a lot more room left of prominent Democrats than there is between (previous) prominent members of the two parties.  Of course, a lot of people are 'independent' because they registered to vote young but were wary of affiliating with a party (since what the fuck does that mean?  You sure as shit don't know at 18) and just never had a pressing need to change their affiliation afterwards.  Like, I have no party affiliation, but Michigan is an open primary so even when I found that I might want to affiliate so as to participate in primaries, I didn't have to.  So I wouldn't read too much into that.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 08:32:15 PM by Cmdr_King »
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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #201 on: June 16, 2016, 02:25:04 AM »
CK & Elf are right on this one.  Most "independents" aren't mushy centrists who listen to newspaper endorsements, though such voters do exist and exercise disproportionate power for their small size because converting an enemy vote is worth twice as much as convincing one ambivalent supporter to actually show up and vote. 

This cuts both ways for Sanders: it implies that a rally-the-base, screw the center strategy can work in the general, but also means that polling among "independents" is super-misleading and not a good test of Sanders' real strength.  Put things another way, the kind of politically active "independent" who bothers to show up to vote in the Democratic primary is a tailor-made pro-Sanders group.  Primary turnout is way less than General turnout, so we're talking about independents who really care about politics but don't want to associate themselves as Democrats.  Sounds pretty Sanders-friendly.  (Incidentally, this is fine by me...  Obama won out among high-information voters in 2008 and in caucuses, which is good, reduces the impact of money / fame.)

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That said, the "fed up with the political system" type independents, which aren't easily classifiable as left/right, and anecdotally seem to be a significant percentage of independents, prefer the candidates billed as political outsiders (Trump, Sanders, Carson, to some extent Cruz).  This is a group that Trump seems likely to pick up, and anecdotally the group seems large enough that he currently seems likely to have a majority of the independent vote).

I don't think it's THAT significant a percentage.  Per above, these "outsider" voters are usually partisans of one stripe or another.  They might have a favored outsider in the primary, but will they really cross over to the other side?  (Side note: I saw some Bernie supporters somewhere (FB?) deeply offended that Clinton's campaign manager had said the Bernie voters would come around to Clinton in the general.  How is this offensive?!  I'd certainly grit my teeth and vote Bernie over any Republican in a second...  doesn't seem controversial.)  Seems doubtful.  Or, put another way..   the liberal news media said in 1994 there was an "anti-incumbent" wave sweeping the country.  Then no Republican incumbents lost, but tons of Democratic incumbents lost.  If there really was a "throw the bums out, put in new outsider candidates" movement, that was the time it allegedly existed, and it was the media crying wolf.  At absolute worst, cynical leftist independents repulsed by Clinton's villainous...  emails...  will stay home, rather than vote Trump.  Rightist independents are voting Trump anyway, and rare centrist independents will do what the newspapers & society tell them, which is going to be "stop Trump at all costs."

metroid composite

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #202 on: June 17, 2016, 06:10:43 AM »
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Or, put another way..   the liberal news media said in 1994 there was an "anti-incumbent" wave sweeping the country.  Then no Republican incumbents lost, but tons of Democratic incumbents lost.  If there really was a "throw the bums out, put in new outsider candidates" movement, that was the time it allegedly existed, and it was the media crying wolf.

But there definitely is an anti-insider movement.  It's why the Republican primary came down to Cruz vs Trump.  (With Rubio, who was seen as a Tea Party darling 4 years ago, being seen as too corrupted by Washington thanks to the...4 years he spent there).  Polling has shown that the sentiment is stronger on the right than on the left, but it's still noteworthy that Sanders would have been instantly squashed in the primary in...pretty much any primary prior to this year.

Like most recent political trends, this isn't isolated to the United States, with similar attitudes echoed in Europe.  The relatively stable democracy of Austria had a wave of anti-establishment voting in its 2016 presidential race, where the normal political parties couldn't even get a candidate through to the runoff stage, and the voting ended up being between a hyper-nationalist, and a green party candidate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_presidential_election,_2016

Nor is this something that just started in 2016--the Tea Party has been ousting establishment Republicans in the House and Senate, and replacing them with Tea Party Republicans.


I don't think 1994 is going to be a good data point, because the internet wasn't a major force in politics in 1994.  The internet seems to have the effect of making people more extreme in their political beliefs, as they gather large numbers of friends with similar political views.  This happened on the right before it happened on the left (conservative bloggers were the ones who pushed for Sarah Palin as the VP pick in 2008).  But it seems to be happening on the left as well now (with The Young Turks surpassing CNN for online viewership; And TYT doesn't even try to be subtle in their biases).

metroid composite

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #203 on: June 24, 2016, 06:00:34 AM »
Oh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

Brexit won.

Every single constituency in Scotland voted Remain; Scotland is already pushing for independence.

Northern Ireland also voted Remain.  Northern Ireland is now in talks about reunification with Southern Ireland.

England and Wales voted for the exit.

The pound sterling has been plummeting and has reached a 30 year low.

All the asian markets are dropping.  Japan actually halted trading on the Nikkei for a while.



Alright, so as a Canadian I actually have some amount of experience with this shit thanks to Quebec.  Montreal used to be the economic capital of Canada.  When scares of Quebec leaving were happening, all those businesses moved their headquarters to Toronto, which is now the economic capital of Canada.

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #205 on: June 24, 2016, 07:52:47 AM »


JRPGs were right: young people are better


This is also worrying re: Trump vs Clinton, because irrational nationalism just won against the struggling status quo, and this is just the beginning. Austria nearly elected a far right president against a green party candidate.

 "Our lives have already become a lot worse in the past XX years, so why not take a leap of faith and change? Things can't get much worse now" (spoilers: yes they can)

I hope England crashes and burns spectacularly as a warning

Excal

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #206 on: June 24, 2016, 09:26:30 AM »
First things first, the Prime Minister could declare that 52% is not a mandate.  The Canadian Prime Minister did something similar in the 90s, when yet another referendum happened.

Reading through your stuff, general disagreement, but not quite done yet, let alone coming up with acceptable counter-arguments.  But had to comment on this.

This would not work.

It is debatable that it would have worked when Cretien pulled it back in 95 since Bouchard basically said they didn't recognise that claim.  But let's say it was a perfect solution that would have stopped a 51% leave vote cold.  It still doesn't apply here.

First: Cretien said that before the referendum was done.  Cameron would have to say it after the results are in here.  Claims like this have no force if they look like a desperate ass-pull to explain why the other side didn't really win.

Second: Cretien and Bouchard were separate levels of government, each with a separate mandate and a separate party backing them.  Here, Cameron's party is the party that was pushing the Brexit.  If he does not honour the results, then his party will fracture and his government will lose confidence and fall.  At this point, you have a general election.  Assuming their politics are like ours, having the government fall over this issue means that the next election will be a single issue election, a second referendum on leaving the EU.  This time, the winning party will rightfully claim they have the support to deal with the EU as they see fit.

If Cameron puts on the breaks, then the only safe bet is that Cameron is toast.  Aside from that, Britain may stay in, it may sever even more forcefully from the EU, hell, this is the scenario where you might wind up with a UKIP majority.

Excal

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #207 on: June 24, 2016, 10:02:05 AM »
Ok...

First off, Quebec is a bad analogy for this.  It's not a great one for Scotland, since that at least was a real country in the past and had viable plans for the future, but it generally fits there since they're both provinces of a federation wanting to become sovereign nations.  Here, you have a sovereign nation withdrawing from a strong common market and bureaucracy.  And one which has historically had some pretty noticable differences from the rest of them.

But, to go point by point.  We've already covered why Cameron can't just go "Nope, doesn't count."  Heck, let's toss in a third one.  PArt of his mandate for this term was that he would run this referendum.  To ignore the results would, again, undermine his credibility.  Something else that Cretien didn't have against him, since he was pretty generally of the opinion that the Quebec Referendum was low on credibility to start with, but he'd humour them and win anyways.


Some businesses are going to up and move, but mostly just the Europe focused ones.  Anything focused specifically on England and anywhere not Europe will want to stay in England.  Also, the reason for leaving Quebec wasn't just the instability.  You have to remember, the reason Montreal used to be The City in Canada was because when we got our first real hit of settlers, Montreal, Halifax, and Quebec City were the only real places to go.  Halifax was too far out of the way, and Quebec City was too French, so Montreal.  This meant that a lot of the business there wasn't French.  The reason it moved to Toronto was because Toronto was rising as competition to Montreal, and because the nationalist movement in Quebec was Francophone in nature, and thus anti-Anglophone.  Basically, they left because the political climate was poisoned and would get much worse if Quebec did separate.  English business, based in England, which left the EU in order to promote English causes, will find their situation to be the exact opposite of Anglophone business in Quebec.


Hmm, Scotland.  Yeah, probably will leave.  Dunno about Ireland, will be interesting to watch.  Not expecting huge waves of immigration though.  That feels like the BS claims that we should expect waves of immigration whenever a Republican wins the White House and yet they never materialize.  The mention of the United Empire Loyalists is interesting, but not really applicable.  First off, I really doubt many people feel that much loyalty to the EU.  Secondly, a lot of the UELs were refugees.  Seriously, as far as the Revolutionary War went, it was effectively a civil war, and a lot of the UELs were having homes burnt down, tarred and feathered, shit like that.  So, yeah.  I'll believe in major population shifts when I see it and not a moment before.


As for the stock exchange.  I imagine Germany or the Netherlands probably will try and use this as an excuse to make their own.  If the EU remains powerful enough in the long run, it may one day supplant the LSE.  But that won't happen overnight either.


As for the monarchy leaving.  They weren't driven out by the blitz, they're sure as hell not going to leave because Britain left the EU.  MC, this one is straight up "I hope they suffer for doing something I think was dumb" wishful thinking on your part.

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #208 on: June 24, 2016, 01:55:22 PM »


JRPGs were right: young people are better


This is also worrying re: Trump vs Clinton, because irrational nationalism just won against the struggling status quo, and this is just the beginning. Austria nearly elected a far right president against a green party candidate.

 "Our lives have already become a lot worse in the past XX years, so why not take a leap of faith and change? Things can't get much worse now" (spoilers: yes they can)

I hope England crashes and burns spectacularly as a warning

Yeah, and I could never think of nationalism as logical even though it has a certain logic. It takes about two hours here to take a class and become legally-allowed to register voters. I plan on doing that once I move. Crazy voter laws that undermine people's opportunities or just non-voting certainly doesn't help the turnout we need and definitely gives Trump voters more steam.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #209 on: June 24, 2016, 03:27:32 PM »
It says awful things for direct democracy when it can deliver a razor result against the common sense views espoused by the overwhelming majority of those with a high level of education (university-educated folks supported Remain by almost 3:1) across the political spectrum (e.g. literally every current and former PM of any party). The 48% are going to really suffer for the, frankly, idiotic whims of the 52%. I'm still processing how I feel about this but I'm obviously angry and unhappy. I feel like we've seen some bad near-misses with idiotic referendums before (Quebec for one, yes) and I think there really has to be a better way than 50/50 coinflips on "do we blow things up y/n" since the consequences are so dire. But I don't really know.

Oh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

Brexit won.

Every single constituency in Scotland voted Remain; Scotland is already pushing for independence.

Northern Ireland also voted Remain.  Northern Ireland is now in talks about reunification with Southern Ireland.

England and Wales voted for the exit.

The pound sterling has been plummeting and has reached a 30 year low.

All the asian markets are dropping.  Japan actually halted trading on the Nikkei for a while.



Alright, so as a Canadian I actually have some amount of experience with this shit thanks to Quebec.  Montreal used to be the economic capital of Canada.  When scares of Quebec leaving were happening, all those businesses moved their headquarters to Toronto, which is now the economic capital of Canada.

It's oversimplfying things to say "England voted X, Northern Ireland voted Y". This isn't a US presidential election and there's no winner-take-all effect on a consituency level. Northern Ireland was fairly close to a tie (which is a pretty big surprise incidentally), Wales even closer. Even Scotland wasn't as one-sided as many (including Snowfire and myself) expected, although one-sided enough to possibly galvanise the population in a second Scottish referendum.

And yes, you bet this will scare some international businesses out of London. They certainly won't leave for Scotland, though. Do note that even if Scotland does secede over this (itself far from a given), it will not automatically be part of the EU, and in fact Spain will likely try to fight them becoming part of the EU in order to make things tougher on Catalonia, its own separatist sub-division. So... a business leaving England due to reasons of its now unstable relationship with the EU will instead move to... a country which is definitely inside the EU.

Agreed with Excal that the UK referendum doesn't really look much like the Quebec ones to me. Both due to the different scale, but also the different result. (The Scottish one being like Quebec, sure. There are obvious parallels there.) The only common theme is what Fenrir said, that it was pretty much a contest between irrational nationalism and struggling* status quo.


*The status quo isn't even struggling in historical terms you idiots, this is literally the best time to be alive in history if you live in any first-world country, and even in much of the rest of the world. Stop gambling our future to feed your stupid sense of entitlement and alarmism, you fucking morons. Ahem.

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #210 on: June 24, 2016, 03:29:20 PM »
Not expecting huge waves of immigration though.  That feels like the BS claims that we should expect waves of immigration whenever a Republican wins the White House and yet they never materialize.

I mean...no, because the legal situation is different.

Most of the people yelling that they will move to Canada don't necessarily have the means to move to Canada.  Canada has immigration barriers that want you to have a masters degree or be in a technical field where you can be expected to make over $100k per year.

By comparison, if it looks like Scotland is going to leave the UK with the plan of re-joining the EU, and you want to keep your EU citizenship...right now there is free movement between England and Scotland, so people can freely move to Scotland.  And keeping a passport that would allow them to work anywhere in the EU is actually a large legal incentive to do so.  (Whereas there was never really a legal benefit or economic benefit to moving to Canada--it wouldn't give you access to a larger job market, etc).

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As for the monarchy leaving.  They weren't driven out by the blitz, they're sure as hell not going to leave because Britain left the EU.  MC, this one is straight up "I hope they suffer for doing something I think was dumb" wishful thinking on your part.

Yeah, that part is probably BS--I was just brainstorming.

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so Montreal.  This meant that a lot of the business there wasn't French.

And a lot of the business there still isn't French.  I lived there for two years in 2002-2004; it's still about half and half.

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English business, based in England, which left the EU in order to promote English causes, will find their situation to be the exact opposite of Anglophone business in Quebec.

Sure.  On the flip side, the opposite is already happening to academic research--much of which got EU funding.  The opposite is already happening to videogame development, with developers looking to move out of England.

I will admit that I know jack shit about English businesses promoting English causes, however.

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But, to go point by point.  We've already covered why Cameron can't just go "Nope, doesn't count."  Heck, let's toss in a third one.  PArt of his mandate for this term was that he would run this referendum.  To ignore the results would, again, undermine his credibility.  Something else that Cretien didn't have against him, since he was pretty generally of the opinion that the Quebec Referendum was low on credibility to start with, but he'd humour them and win anyways.

Mmm...well, David Cameron already resigned, so that's kind-of a moot point.  BUT the referendum was technically non-binding (unlike the previous referendum held in the UK which was binding).  Theoretically the UK should now take a vote in parliament about whether to leave the EU--although even that isn't technically binding (but if a vote was held, it would likely pass at this point--enough members of parliament support it).

metroid composite

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #211 on: June 24, 2016, 03:39:49 PM »
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And yes, you bet this will scare some international businesses out of London. They certainly won't leave for Scotland, though. Do note that even if Scotland does secede over this (itself far from a given), it will not automatically be part of the EU, and in fact Spain will likely try to fight them becoming part of the EU in order to make things tougher on Catalonia, its own separatist sub-division. So... a business leaving England due to reasons of its now unstable relationship with the EU will instead move to... a country which is definitely inside the EU.
OK, so Southern Ireland then.  Or possibly just the United States.

At least in game development, there's going to be a number of English speaking game developers who would rather live in an English speaking country.  All of the sudden the EU is pretty short on those.  Some developers will stay in the England, of course, but remember freedom of movement is pretty important for game developers (I've had to move across state and country lines four times for my various jobs--if I was in the England right now, I'd be angling for any way to have access to the EU market in the future).

Lady Door

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #212 on: June 24, 2016, 06:07:09 PM »
Well, the London banks are going to be in some serious fucking trouble.

The EU can't afford to make this easy on the UK, lest some of the other loosely-bound nations decide, hey, if they can do it, why can't I leave? London banking was already on thin ice. It was allowed to trade in Euro despite not running it as a currency because it was the capital of an EU nation. Now that it isn't a member state, well... Chances are London financial is going to move to Brussels or Frankfurt or Paris.

Scotland voted 62% in favor of remaining, and pre-Brexit polls showed a 6% swing toward independence should Brexit pass. I doubt it will happen immediately (though they're already pressing for a new referendum) but I'd be surprised if it didn't happen in the next 5 years.

Cameron resigning means iffy things for the rest of British politics in the coming months. I mean, it was hardly surprising (no more surprising than the result, anyway), but still.
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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #213 on: June 24, 2016, 09:51:34 PM »
*The status quo isn't even struggling in historical terms you idiots, this is literally the best time to be alive in history if you live in any first-world country, and even in much of the rest of the world. Stop gambling our future to feed your stupid sense of entitlement and alarmism, you fucking morons. Ahem.

Part of the reason I tend not to post in this thread is the suspicion that any post I might make carries a high probability of devolving into exactly this statement.

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #214 on: June 24, 2016, 10:02:44 PM »
Well, the London banks are going to be in some serious fucking trouble.

Good thing no one relies on LIBOR being a steady predictor of global risk.

Actually I just googled LIBOR and apparently there's no articles explaining what will happen to it post-Brexit?  So maybe I'm off base?  Kinda think this is going to be a big deal though.
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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #215 on: June 24, 2016, 10:12:56 PM »
A lot depends on who replaces Cameron.

A solution I would propose is the idea of a three tier solution scale.  If you cannot get a majority, then referendum fail, don't go forward with it.  If you get a supermajority of, say, 66%, then referendum win, go nuts with it you crazy kids.  But if you get between 50 and 66%, then you cannot accept the status quo and need to make solid movements towards the pro-side, whatever it is, without actually going all the way.  This only works for plebiscites where there is a grey area you can fit into, but perhaps it can work.  Hmm, it's also lacking a fail condition so perhaps it would need to have a follow up of some sort built in if you hit the middle condition.

As for the idea that it's terrible that the educated can be overruled by the masses.  Sorry, but no.  I'm not a fan of direct democracy all the time either, but if you want to claim that your nation is democratic, then your legitimacy ultimately has to come from direct democracy.  It's just a question of what warrants it, and how often you have to do it.  If you want the educated to have their opinions on how things to work to count for more, then admit that you don't want democracy, you want a system where an elite rules and everyone outside that elite is disenfranchised.  At that point, it's just a matter of which elite you think should be running things.

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #216 on: June 24, 2016, 10:18:59 PM »
yesterday is a good example of why we don't put abolishing the IRS up for popular vote.
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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #217 on: June 24, 2016, 10:28:50 PM »
Literally ONE DAY after a banker admits to rigging Libor, we get Brexit.

Honestly worse things have happened. The hedging was pretty low on the Brexit side (seriously, something like 25% risk of Brexit was the estimate?) but bankers still had months to prepare for the vote. Eurodollar futures are going to look weird for the next month or so, and there isn't nearly as much wiggle room for shenanigans as there was in 2008 (rates were 5.something% in 2008 versus 0.3something% now) but bankers have learned a lot in the past 8 years about how to ride out global economic storms.

Lots of the financial sector has been saying the anti-Brexit recession rhetoric is overblown scaremongering. The short-term panic over cash is likely just that: short-term. But the cash futures market is going to have to make some bets in the next month, and it's based on a really limited picture of what all this even means...
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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #218 on: June 25, 2016, 02:14:56 AM »
*The status quo isn't even struggling in historical terms you idiots, this is literally the best time to be alive in history if you live in any first-world country, and even in much of the rest of the world. Stop gambling our future to feed your stupid sense of entitlement and alarmism, you fucking morons. Ahem.

Part of the reason I tend not to post in this thread is the suspicion that any post I might make carries a high probability of devolving into exactly this statement.

Gonna say this is the hardest I've ever agreed with Elfboy, so clearly he needs to curse more.

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #219 on: June 25, 2016, 03:49:10 AM »
The funny part about Brexit is now the Conservatives/UKIPers who were pushing it have won the battle and...

Now what?

There were a lot of economic discussions about whether the EU was good for the UK or not but almost every economist says "Hell yes". The "pro-Leave" people made up numbers about how much money they would be able to save and turn around andspend on England's NHS. That can't happen because it was always a fantasy. They are promising stricter border controls once out of the EU. But how do they make this happen? It would be years before they can start changing that around, and they are already promising not to deport people. This just isn't going to go as they want, and the passion they have whipped up about hordes of immigrants drowning the UK isn't going to go away.

This is the equivalent of the US Conservatives whipping up frenzy for years about how Obama was evil and destroying America and so on and so forth, all so they could get lower tax rates. They whipped up the frenzy but had no way to control it once they got what they wanted (since 'solving' the problem was never the goal) and so the club they used against Democrats was picked up by Cruz/Trump and used to bludgeon them into submission. There are no reasonable ways to assuage unrealistic and extreme anger being whipped up. It can only go down, down, down baby.

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #220 on: June 25, 2016, 04:39:21 AM »
My favourite bit I have seen floating around is on /r/badeconomics


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1: I intend to get very drunk.

2: I don't understand.

3: The result is not what the economy needed, we being good economists are trying to stimulate the economy by consuming goods such as alcohol.
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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #221 on: June 25, 2016, 05:21:19 AM »
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/morgan-stanley-brexit-eu-referendum-jobs-dublin-frankfurt-a7100911.html

But Morgan Stanley is denying it, so who knows.

Meanwhile, in car manufactureres:

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/24/uk-brexit-automakers-breaking/

There apparently used to be a 10% tariff on cars exported from the UK to the EU, and several companies currently have manufacturing plants in the UK.  NPR was reporting rumors of layoffs there.

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #222 on: June 25, 2016, 06:01:25 AM »
What the fuck are you doing, Dr Jill Stein?  (Calls Brexit a good thing o_O)

http://www.jill2016.com/stein_calls_britain_vote_a_wake_up_call

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #223 on: June 25, 2016, 08:22:43 AM »
I'm not super surprised.  The EU is a big, corrupt institution with zero accountability that mostly functions as an enforcer of harsh neo-liberal economic norms.  It'd be hard to design an institution more opposed to the Green platform.

Mind you she also notes that the leftist argument for Leave was drown out overwhelmingly by the fascist argument, and has the good taste to condemn this at least.  Still not really a canny move if we're trying to position the Greens as a viable party for the future.
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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #224 on: June 25, 2016, 08:41:37 AM »
The EU is the worst possible paneuropean institution except for all the other possible ones

Brexit is definitely not a win for Green any way you look at it, the EU imposes very strict anti carbon emissions laws and now the Uk is free to do whatever the fuck they want about them.

Plus environmental issues and especially climate need to be tackled on a worldwide scale, and the less divisions between countries the better

Stein is probably just clapping at the failure of traditional left and right political parties there

Tl;dr brexit is a disaster for green policies
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 08:44:06 AM by Fenrir »