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Author Topic: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one  (Read 66788 times)

SnowFire

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #950 on: January 07, 2018, 10:05:41 PM »
dunie: I still disagree that these segments undermine characterizing Trump as bad. 

"Unimaginable" is negative in context (it's not a good unimaginable).  "Us-against-them rhetoric" was traditionally considered a "bad" thing to genteel centrist newspaper readers (although who knows these days anymore).  "According to fact checkers" is a way to squeeze in a slam on Trump while still appearing "neutral" (there's no implication that the fact-checkers are wrong or biased anywhere).  You're right that "self-interested system" is technically not attributed to Trump supporters.  I get the message the writer is going for, but, sure, I can see a difference of opinion on proper phrasing for that one.  "Outside the box" can be positive without any context, but the context is a bunch of norm-shattering authoritarianism, and it's a direct quote, so presumably the reporter thought that was the best quote to work with.  "More bark than bite" has been thankfully true on some issues - if you take all of Trump's tweets and threats literally, he has not actually followed through on many of them.  I think it's fair to worry that this understates what Trump has done, but I think it's also fair to mention that Trump can be a blowhard at times, which is just clearly true (and is bad for the country in a different way).  Reality can accommodate both Trump being terrible and promising to be far more terrible but not following up.  Trump making the presidency more "authentic" is the Trump-supporter's stance, contrasted with "autocratic" from detractors; I think it's valid to mention the other side's stance, as it's what you pick to explain Trump if you like him.  Understanding the opposition's arguments is useful.  For "Presidents are human", here's the full paragraph:

Quote
Presidents are human, too, a blend of varying degrees of idealism, generosity, empathy, ambition, ego, vanity, jealousy and anger, but they generally hide their unvarnished traits behind an official veneer. Call it decorum, call it presidential. Mr. Trump essentially calls it fake, making no effort to pretend to be above it all, except to boast that he is stronger, richer, smarter and more successful than anyone else. To him, the presidency is about winning, not governing.
It's a set-up for "Trump is more interested in parading his victory around then acting presidential and ruling the country."  That's an overall attack on him - presumably even diehard conservatives want someone who can both win AND "govern."  The bit about Kelly: It's in response to a meme among the "respectable" centrists that maybe John Kelly would "fix" the White House and help Trump after he became Chief of Staff, which the author is saying "eh, probably not" against.  The electoral college wouldn't have mattered if Trump had lost by a 85-15 margin, which is what "should" have happened; how exactly he hustled his way to 46% of the vote is the point of interest the author is exploring.  I think the EC would be fine to talk about in a different article, but this one was more focused on his first year in office, and how his supporters interact with him is relevant to that (with the election being the backstory for it).  re "cautionary tale", it'll be a cautionary tale for future presidents because if EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE by 2020 future presidents might say "huh let me not do that again".  The "broader mandate" thing is hitting on Trump for making radical changes despite having half the country hate him. 

Anyway, as for whether this piece is really Trump-friendly or not, I'm going to fall back to the same thing I mentioned earlier in the thread: are there people who are Trump-neutral or Trump-positive and agree with the stance that this piece is portraying him as a maverick-super hero?  Would that article appear in Breitbart without too many angry comments?  If the only people who think Trump is being burnished by this piece are people who already hate Trump and won't have their minds changed anyway...  is the piece actually pro-Trump in any effective sense?

At the very worst, if nobody can be found that thinks Trump is flattered by it who doesn't already hate Trump, that would imply the article is a wholly ineffective pro-Trump puff piece.  Which is something I guess.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 10:26:06 PM by SnowFire »

dunie

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #951 on: January 07, 2018, 11:24:23 PM »
See, I didn't read the article with an interest of parsing Good Trump or Bad Trump. Although I'm unconvinced in your response, getting entangled with whether things such as "unimaginable" as "negative" wasn't my part of my reading. It's that, when an author chooses to not name a thing, then using terms with the potential to carry negative or positive connotations is slippery business. They could have made the work far more easier by simply naming their target instead of belaboring what really is a shifting target in their writing. And I'm not sure I can convince you that I was, in fact, not reading the article drooling with anger out of any possible positive thing one could say about Trump. So yes, presenting multiple stances is important. I just have not been convinced by their writing or anyone else that they were effective in presenting both. Trump can be a maverick-super hero without him needing to be a villain to be seen as good or bad. You're right though, I clipped off the "Presidents are human, too" paragraph only because it's right under a headline and right before a slew of paragraphs and quotes such as "“One thing he’s done to the Oval Office and our political culture as a whole is brought a lot more authenticity than people have been used to from politicians,” said Andy Surabian, a senior adviser to the Great America Alliance, a Trump-aligned group" that the author does not counterbalance or respond to with other information. So it was an easy target to troll. So I'm not sure if the article would be met with snuggles by Breitbart readers, but after my color-coded commentary and some chatter it's been definitely embraced by my Trumpporter colleagues, who don't care about Trump being flattered- they care about how he's been defying the odds they've wanted to him, even with all the trash he's knocking over. To not belabor the point further, I hope you'll come to see my response as something concerned far more with clickbait and my general feeling that any unclear denouncement of Trump can be taken as a compliment. [edit: and if not it seems there's just simply an impasse! And really no useful result in further arguing except to ask more questions about the readers/critics/lovers than the writing] To use the crudest example: any school bully who's only described by what he does and how his friends view him mostly, whether good or bad, who's not actually called a bully, plays too much fire with responsibility. And that bully gets to go home and puff their collar.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 11:28:17 PM by dunie »

NotMiki

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Captain K

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #953 on: January 12, 2018, 05:04:16 AM »

metroid composite

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #954 on: January 13, 2018, 06:25:46 AM »
"I'm a proud shithole!!"

-Serious political commentary from January 2018.


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SnowFire

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #959 on: January 20, 2018, 08:27:23 PM »
I'm still bitter that the public rewarded the GOP's hostage-taking style of government budget passing in 2013 with a huge victory in the 2014 elections.  Damn the public for not caring about that.  Given that the US voters have shown that they don't care about this, why not try the same thing even when you're in power?  Just threaten to kill things even the GOP claims to be for (CHIP, maybe DACA) so that they offer the minimum possible concessions, hey, you kept popular bipartisan programs afloat with us while we beat you everywhere else?

dunie

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #960 on: January 22, 2018, 04:25:44 PM »
It's interesting. My public's been condemning that heartlessness ever since. So, in this way, I actually haven't received any material or news feeds that praise or validate GOP since like, 2008. By public do you mean news or your information circle?

Grefter

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #961 on: January 22, 2018, 10:28:00 PM »
I think he just means election results?
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dunie

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #962 on: January 23, 2018, 08:35:58 AM »
Gotcha. If so, color me unsurprised by party politics.

[depression]

metroid composite

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #963 on: January 24, 2018, 05:51:11 AM »
So...looking away from the trash fire for the moment...Canada has ratified the TPP with most of the Asian countries:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tpp-champagne-deal-1.4499616

My initial reaction was a bit negative, but it sounds like they've addressed a lot of the issues that I had with the TPP, like forcing American IP law onto more countries, and they added a number of environmental restrictions.  (Probably both only possible because the US dropped out of the deal).  Economically, obviously, it's smart for Canada, but it sounds like it's not sacrificing too many moral principles either, which was my main prior objection to the TPP.

From a strictly "how does this affect me personally cause I'm living in the US?"--actually IP law is the one thing that probably would impact companies I work for, as many american videogame companies struggle to sell in Asia where pirating is common.  But eh--what I think is a good and moral deal, and what I think will maybe result in slightly more profits for the company that employs me is not the same thing.

Canada, I imagine, is pretty happy with how all this shook out.  Canada already has NAFTA for free trade with the US, and now gets a trade deal with Asian countries without having to submit to extra demands from the Americans.  I also have to wonder whether Canada/Mexico thanks to NAFTA will be used as a bypass for tariffs (ex: the new solar cell tariff--I believe that legally can't apply to Canada or Mexico, so...will Chinese manufacturers ship to shell companies in Canada and from there into the US in order to bypass tariffs?)

Ranmilia

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #964 on: February 01, 2018, 05:30:32 AM »
https://thinkprogress.org/pennsylvania-gop-leader-tells-state-supreme-court-he-will-defy-its-anti-gerrymandering-order-afc0b3cd8eb0/

And now, a brief glance back at the trash fire, since this is one of the things I'd qualify as a real critical point. 

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dunie

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #966 on: February 09, 2018, 06:49:36 PM »
wuuuuuut

ya know, everyone's happy about punching nazis, because

but i wish it were as socially acceptable to punch sociopathic assholes

metroid composite

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #967 on: February 15, 2018, 03:32:17 PM »
Yes yes, I know, there have been other events more recently.  But I'm fascinated by Alexei Navalny's latest video, wherein an instagram model who happened to be dating the Russian Oligarch whom is owed a large debt from Paul Manifort, and who received regular election updates from Paul Manifort during the 2016 campaign--that instagram model may have accidentally revealed that the deputy prime minister was on-board that oligarch's Yacht and receiving the intel.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/02/13/a-russian-dissident-pulls-off-a-virtuoso-trolling-of-the-putin-regime/?utm_term=.d3d88aeba812

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/02/russia-is-trying-to-bury-this-video-and-they-might-shut-down-youtube-to-do-it/

The fact that Russia is considering blocking all of youtube and instagram to stop this video means that it got under someone's skin, true or false.


Hunter Sopko

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #969 on: February 16, 2018, 10:44:03 PM »
I'm still on the fence on how bad the first tweet is. Perhaps if he hadn't added the last part with "another sad reason..." it would've stood just fine. That's where it adds the terrible implication he feels he needs to qualify.

It's the second tweet where he verily falls on his own sword and deserves all the derision. The equivocation/apology is worse than the offense, running kill count 11billion.

OblivionKnight

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #970 on: February 16, 2018, 11:33:34 PM »
I need to stop looking at the news for like a month. I'm going to have a stroke one of these days reading an article on... Well anything
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #971 on: February 17, 2018, 12:41:08 AM »
Neither of those tweets seem especially bad to me? There is an unfortunate implication that could be taken from the first tweet but he clarifies that it wasn't his intent in the second. Good lord, everyone's said things that could be taken as more offensive/insensitive than intended before.

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Grefter

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #972 on: February 17, 2018, 01:52:50 AM »
If it helps he deleted them and has a “Sorry you got offended” follow up.
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NotMiki

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #973 on: February 17, 2018, 02:18:34 AM »
https://kotaku.com/kentucky-governor-blames-violent-video-games-for-shooti-1823075688

The worst take.  I say that not because it's about videogames but because it's basically a Boomer putting the blame for a mass killing on young people, collectively.  Needless to say: fuck that guy.
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Cotigo

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Re: Is there a politics thread? Guess I'm making one
« Reply #974 on: February 17, 2018, 07:20:26 AM »
https://kotaku.com/kentucky-governor-blames-violent-video-games-for-shooti-1823075688

The worst take.  I say that not because it's about videogames but because it's basically a Boomer putting the blame for a mass killing on young people, collectively.  Needless to say: fuck that guy.