Author Topic: Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels  (Read 951 times)

SnowFire

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Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels
« on: April 21, 2016, 08:55:15 PM »
Still pretty slow around here, and hey, Birthright stats are up.  So more rando-matches.

Tosh (AtL2) - According to Wikipedia, "Tosh face off with his father and defeats him, freeing him of his dark desire."
Yveltal (Pokemon) - Ultimate force of darkness now fits in a Pokeball.
Charlotte (FE Fates) - Charlotte is still enslaved to her dark desires, alas.

Tosh vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4)
Tosh vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2)
Tosh vs. Victoria (BD)
Tosh vs. Lulu (FFX)
Tosh vs. Citan (XG)
Tosh vs. Latios (Pokemon)
Tosh vs. Sephiran (FE10)
Tosh vs. Hrist (VP2)
Tosh vs. Deis (BoFs)
Tosh vs. Summoner (FF5)
Tosh vs. Justin (G1)
Tosh vs. Benjamin (FFMQ)
Tosh vs. Martym (TO)


Yveltal vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4)
Yveltal vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2)
Yveltal vs. Victoria (BD)
Yveltal vs. Lulu (FFX)
Yveltal vs. Citan (XG)
Yveltal vs. Latios (Pokemon)
Yveltal vs. Sephiran (FE10)
Yveltal vs. Hrist (VP2)
Yveltal vs. Deis (BoFs)
Yveltal vs. Summoner (FF5)
Yveltal vs. Justin (G1)
Yveltal vs. Benjamin (FFMQ)
Yveltal vs. Martym (TO)


Charlotte vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4)
Charlotte vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2)
Charlotte vs. Victoria (BD)
Charlotte vs. Lulu (FFX)
Charlotte vs. Citan (XG)
Charlotte vs. Latios (Pokemon)
Charlotte vs. Sephiran (FE10)
Charlotte vs. Hrist (VP2)
Charlotte vs. Deis (BoFs)
Charlotte vs. Summoner (FF5)
Charlotte vs. Justin (G1)
Charlotte vs. Benjamin (FFMQ)
Charlotte vs. Martym (TO)

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2016, 11:09:21 PM »
Charlotte vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4)
100% Counterattacks vs. WA4 bosses, Middle FE duelers would win here.  Charlotte probably never gets a turn.
Charlotte vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2)
Blue Fiend is doubled and I'd see its durability as worse than Elf's anyway, so CHarlotte easily 3HKOs and only needs to 4HKO.
Charlotte vs. Victoria (BD)
OTOH this is tougher.  Pretty sure Brave'd 2x Dark is bad news vs. Charlotte MDef.  Doom deals with some sort of Hand Axe stall strategy, not that I'm sure it'd even work.  BUT BUT UNMASK CRTIZ?!
Charlotte vs. Lulu (FFX)
Charlotte's comparatively poor accuracy does not do her favors here.  Probably doubles & whiffs twice.
Charlotte vs. Citan (XG)
Citan wins...   IF Charlotte never hits + crits.   WTD does some dire things to her hit rate, though, but that's largely negated by counters for when Citan goes in.  If Citan 2HKOd, I'd like his odds, but with him only 3HKOing (and thus killing in 2 attacks rather than 1 thanks to doubling), that gives Charlotte time to fish for crits while he does his Haste / Heal shenanigans w/ Iron +2....  but I guess Citan can just skip the healing part.  Haste up, Charlotte attacks, Citan attacks & doubles (eats a Charlotte counter), attack again before Charlotte gets a turn.  He eats two Charlotte attacks this way which is potentially fatal but one will probably miss, so.
Charlotte vs. Latios (Pokemon)
If Latios doubles, RIP.  If he doesn't...  Dragon Dance, eat 1 Hand Axe hit, then OHKO also probably works.
Charlotte vs. Sephiran (FE10)
Charlotte doesn't double, but...  stand next to him, let him attack, kill on next attack?  Definitely inclined to let PCs pull that over bosses, although I guess there's "Warp staff away and summon spirits" hype or something.
Charlotte vs. Hrist (VP2)
Finally an average speed opponent to figure out how harsh I want to be on Charlotte.  Not super -inclined to tiebreak for a boss, though, so sure, Unmask double is go, and PC Hrist has WTD if she wants to get Stone going or something.
Charlotte vs. Deis (BoFs)
Death.
Charlotte vs. Summoner (FF5)
Unmask'd.
Charlotte vs. Justin (G1)
I don't think Justin quite manages the 2HKO here, even if he avoids counters.
Charlotte vs. Benjamin (FFMQ)
Not doubled, should be able to 2HKO with magic (even ignoring weird bugged Life).
Charlotte vs. Martym (TO)
I don't see her as doubling.  Charlotte has 3 attacks to get a crit in.  With Unmask active, sure, but not here and further facing WTD, so nope.

6-7

Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2016, 12:01:23 AM »
Tosh vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4) - per below
Tosh vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2) - Yeah that mild water weakness should be enough here.
Tosh vs. Victoria (BD) - Tosh really hopes you see Victoria as vulnerable to Monji Slash despite the debuff not working on bosses in his own game.  The fact that you openly can't debuff BD bosses that severely makes me less than inclined to either do so or give it full credit.
Tosh vs. Lulu (FFX) - Yeah my recollection of AtL2 evasion makes me less than inclined to hype charged physicals being ITE against games whose own evasion is anything resembling comprehensive, especially since they can still be blocked ingame which is almost as bad.
Tosh vs. Citan (XG) - Isn't quite 2HKO'd through Monji Slash.  Close though.
Tosh vs. Latios (Pokemon) - OHKO
Tosh vs. Sephiran (FE10) - If I see Charlotte OHKOing Sephiran, he certainly doesn't fare any better against Tosh.
Tosh vs. Deis (BoFs)
Tosh vs. Summoner (FF5) - Faster.  If Summoner could use shields then maybe you could hype dodging but otherwise no.
Tosh vs. Justin (G1)
Tosh vs. Martym (TO) - A lot of TO physical durability comes from equipment and not raw stats so Monji Slash isn't really helping Tosh's cause much

Yveltal vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4)
Yveltal vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2)
Yveltal vs. Victoria (BD)
Yveltal vs. Lulu (FFX)
Yveltal vs. Citan (XG)
Yveltal vs. Latios (Pokemon)
Yveltal vs. Sephiran (FE10)
Yveltal vs. Deis (BoFs)
Yveltal vs. Summoner (FF5)
Yveltal vs. Justin (G1)
Yveltal vs. Martym (TO)

Charlotte vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4) - Early game WA4 bosses have some durability since Raquel damage isn't amazing yet or anything, enough so that ED won't get offed by a single Charlotte counter, and Charlotte is both doubled and 3HKO'd here.
Charlotte vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2) - Should two-round first.
Charlotte vs. Victoria (BD) - Brave into Dark x2 should indeed be fatal here, but it's only below half HP and Victoria sits at about 3.33 PCHP herself before considering any support credit or brave blitzing considerations.  Iron axe +2 double itself does 1.38 with the benefit of Unmask, silver axe double does 1.53, but a silver axe crit alone does 2.30 here, and since Unmask gives Charlotte a 45% crit rate here this is actually worth considering.  Of course if she crits too early that's bad unless you take a particularly dim view of Victoria's HP, but on the other hand I'm somewhat harsh on FE crit rates and even if you aren't BRONZE exists, an unforged bronze deals 1.14 on a double here, Victoria does something, and then round two Charlotte has a somewhat under 70% chance of doing at least 3.07 PCHP damage on a follow up.  Granted there are some accuracy concerns here but overall I think this works as I don't see Victoria above 4 PCHP myself or am willing to hype the meaningless of BD evasion.  And of course, this assumes one doesn't hold Victoria's princely -2.68 SD speed against her too harshly.
Charlotte vs. Lulu (FFX) - Unlike here, where yeah Charlotte accuracy is definitely a thing.
Charlotte vs. Citan (XG) - The good news is that Charlotte narrowly avoids being one-rounded here.  The bad news is that facing down WTD and Citan's own mild evasion likely means that he gets that second turn to seal the deal more often than not.
Charlotte vs. Latios (Pokemon) - I think I buy Latios doubling.  It kind of needs it as no way does Dragon Dance let it OHKO.
Charlotte vs. Sephiran (FE10) - A decent chunk of Sephiran's defense comes from a +10 defense tile which I tend not to consider, that's surely enough for me to see her OHKOing.
Charlotte vs. Deis (BoFs)
Charlotte vs. Summoner (FF5) - That's gonna leave a mark
Charlotte vs. Justin (G1)
Charlotte vs. Martym (TO) - Yeah really doubt Charlotte is up to this.  Even if she doubles him she may not even 4HKO and is certainly going to miss more times than she can afford.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 08:12:49 PM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2016, 01:31:43 AM »
You can't beat Sephiran by parking next to him and countering, since he uses MT. Even if you force him to use his ST attack periodically, it's range 1-20 and mechanically is a special weapon type and I wouldn't be surprised if it can't be countered even if you're in range, though I've never tested (good luck with that). Charlotte might still win anyway, I dunno, but that won't be how she does it.

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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2016, 01:40:37 AM »
You can't beat Sephiran by parking next to him and countering, since he uses MT. Even if you force him to use his ST attack periodically, it's range 1-20 and mechanically is a special weapon type and I wouldn't be surprised if it can't be countered even if you're in range, though I've never tested (good luck with that). Charlotte might still win anyway, I dunno, but that won't be how she does it.

Ah, right, he has the MT attack.

Anyway I usually kneejerk Sephy as around ~.80 Pdurability, which would put Charlotte out of luck, but I might be willing to throw a bone in her favor, since checking the stat topic again I'm reminded that I'd probably assume a better-than-average team + Dragon auras exist in Radiant Dawn, which makes Sephy's defense not quite so Godlike.  Along with whatever AI respect penalty for warping around and wasting turns rather than fighting.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2016, 09:32:11 AM »
BIG NOTE ON TOSH (although not sure yet if it will be relevant here): I take an equal EXP approach to ATL 2, which puts Tosh at slightly above average speed. No other major changes are caused by this, but this is kind of notable.
Tosh vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4)- Earthbound Dead misses the 2HKO and gets OHKOed...but the topic says it's at least 1 PC HP? But 10,000 HP to 2,000 average damage is sad. Am I missing something?
Tosh vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2)- Tosh 2HKOs and goes first, but thanks to his elemental weakness, he's OHKO. Oops
Tosh vs. Victoria (BD)- Ooh geez. I guess Victoria is nearing 65% speed or something looking at those SDs underwater she is. Granted, she's also quite readable.
Tosh vs. Lulu (FFX)
Tosh vs. Citan (XG)- Hmm, worth playing this out.
Citan: Haste
Citan: Attack
Tosh: Monji Slash (Mathematically puts Citan close to Tosh's speed)
Citan: Attack
I think even through Monji Slash that should kill

Tosh vs. Latios (Pokemon)- OHKO
Tosh vs. Sephiran (FE10)- Hmm, well, Tosh OHKOs if he hits and will hit on average.
Tosh vs. Hrist (VP2)- Boss
Tosh vs. Deis (BoFs)- Has ID
Tosh vs. Summoner (FF5)- Assuming ID is turn 1
Tosh vs. Justin (G1)- Faster, 2HKOs
Tosh vs. Benjamin (FFMQ)
Tosh vs. Martym (TO)- Tosh takes too much in the first hit for Monji Slash to work

Yveltal vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4)
Yveltal vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2)- Hmm, might depend on Blue Fiend Healing spam allowance
Yveltal vs. Victoria (BD)- Drain game works here
Yveltal vs. Lulu (FFX)
Yveltal vs. Citan (XG)- Yeah, that Ice weakness will play well.
Yveltal vs. Sephiran (FE10)- The defense should slow down the drain game too much
Yveltal vs. Hrist (VP2)- Hrist all Yveltal's damage, which hurts+decent respect for boss Hrist in general
Yveltal vs. Deis (BoFs)- ID. I suspect BoF 2 should still be turn 1.
Yveltal vs. Summoner (FF5)- Assuming ID is turn 1
Yveltal vs. Justin (G1)
Yveltal vs. Benjamin (FFMQ)- Probably Benjamin although I can't say I'll ever get FFMQ resistance numbers. So abstain.
Yveltal vs. Martym (TO)

Yveltal 3-7 (ID is not its friend)
Tosh- 3-10 (He's a middling Heavy)
...into the nightfall.

Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2016, 05:56:03 PM »
The listed ~2000 average against Earthbound Dead includes both assuming boosted Fire gems (which aren't always going to be a thing against it in game regardless of whether or not you consider things like that normally so I probably wouldn't give it full credit if I took WA4 damage against bosses that way to begin with) and Sanctify (which isn't really any better than double crediting weakness as far as I'm concerned).  Of course ignoring those and using Raquel damage/2 to determine the average just puts it at 0.84 PCHP so it's not like Tosh isn't splattering it barring poor luck on his end.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 06:03:29 PM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2016, 06:05:31 PM »
Speaking of which, somewhat tempted to adjust my EBDead vs. Charlotte vote per Random's reasoning since it might not be OHKO'd given that level of HP respect...   although there's still arguing that EB Dead can't 3HKO Charlotte.  Dunno about that.  Eh, will leave it as is, but it's a closer match than I thougt.

Dhyer: To my knowledge, MQ is one of the rare games where an "in-game effectiveness" of the status probably looks BETTER than a vanilla DL interp.  Life was supposed to only ID undead monsters, but I believe it works on everything in the game that doesn't immune ID at 100% accuracy, and ID immunity is quite rare (bosses & *maybe* a bare handful of randoms?  Maybe?  I'm not even sure said randoms exist.).  And famously the final boss, whom Life won't work on, Cure works on instead!  (Well, Ben's version of Cure, at least, not Phoebe's.).  Note that this bug was patched in the JP release since MQ came out in the US first to actually only work on undead, at least according to the INternet...

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2016, 05:01:44 PM »
Yveltal vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4): EBD does about 30% to Yveltal, and is over twice as fast. Roost is obviously out, so how about Oblivion Wing? That heals off one attack, but... no, EBD barely has a 5-2 here, so that's game even if Slow doesn't activate. Yveltal can't OHKO or anything. Although... hmm, there's Disable. Since EBD only has one damaging move, Yveltal could use that and then try to win with a 2HKO before it wears off. But... even then Slow Down kicking in would potentially ruin this strategy, and I'm not sure how I feel about Disable shutting off an "only damaging move" in situations like this. Anyone have any thoughts?


Yveltal vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2): If silence works on Yveltal, he's fucked. Otherwise, Blue Fiend still 2HKOs with water nonsense... unless Snarl is used, right, that's neat. So Yveltal opens with that, and from there can heal through anything (physicals do 35%). He has Taunt to spoil the healing, even. I'm not inclined to see silence working here, although it would flip the match if you do.
Yveltal vs. Victoria (BD): Well, Victoria's not winning with damage against dark resistance, so Corpse it is! So Yveltal only gets 4 turns to work with. Can he 4HKO? ... oh fuck no, Victoria resists dark too!
Yveltal vs. Lulu (FFX): Doublecast Death.
Yveltal vs. Citan (XG): Citan is faster with a 2HKO.
Yveltal vs. Latios (Pokemon): Latios is faster, but most of its damage is nulled. It can 4HKO with Dragonbreath. Meanwhile, Latios is weak to dark, so is probably close to being OHKOed. It can't recover from that (literally).
Yveltal vs. Sephiran (FE10): lolol Yveltal against light damage. Doesn't have enough damage anyway.
Yveltal vs. Hrist (VP2): Hrist is slightly weak to dark, which makes this very hard. She can win with a turn 1 basilisk proc, but meh.
Yveltal vs. Deis (BoFs): I vote on BoF1 Deis since she's actually a required PC in the plot of that game, and... is very good anyway. Here, she justs uses Rub, it'll be turn 2 (3 at worst, but probably not, Yveltal MDur is mostly HP), and she isn't being 2HKOed in the meantime. Yveltal could use Disable, but then she blitzes him with damage, he can Snarl and turtle with healing but that just leads to Disable wearing off.
Yveltal vs. Summoner (FF5): Yeah, again, doubt Yveltal lowers the status odds enough here.
Yveltal vs. Justin (G1): Faster, 2HKOs. (Probably.)
Yveltal vs. Martym (TO): Martym's physicals being ice is not what Yveltal needed here, for all that he'd probably lose to the weirdly good Dark Knight subcommander anyway.


Charlotte vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4): 2HKOs, isn't 2HKOed. She doesn't double but it doesn't matter, Charlotte damage is still real good. If I had anywhere near Dhyer level disrespect for EBD's HP this would be a OHKO. EDIT: Wait, forgot Earthbound Dead doubles here. So... yeah, the operative question is 3HKOed, and she is 3HKOed. But... she has 22% evasion, so she should dodge one of those hits.
Charlotte vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2): Well Charlotte overpowers the healing pretty easy. Blue Fiend does 2HKO her back with whatever magic combo, though, so she needs to work fast. But... yeah Charlotte does over 140% per attack when she doubles, and she does here. 280% is certainly too much.
Charlotte vs. Victoria (BD): I'm willing to go along with Random's argument here, sure. Charlotte has a 70% chance of getting a critical which will be fatal on her second attack, and can chip with bronze to avoid it turn 1. Accuracy could fuck things up a bit but I'd have to require Charlotte has a >67% chance to win even with accuracy, and that feels a bit too harsh. It helps immensely that Charlotte vs. female crit rates are actually something unique that she does.
Charlotte vs. Lulu (FFX): lolno, Charlotte would need to hit twice through that evade.
Charlotte vs. Citan (XG): Don't see Haste letting Citan double... but there's a chance he's fast enough to double at base? He's also extremely close to a 2HKO to me (no Kokei or Yamikei). If he doubles and 2HKOs he easily wins. If he does neither, he almost surely loses. If it's one or the other and he kills in two, then he needs Charlotte to miss once... which thanks to -10 Hit + whatever WTD penalty I throw at her (a further -7.5 for A rank enemies? I dunno) is certainly possible. On average I think Citan wins, but I could see voting the other way.
Charlotte vs. Latios (Pokemon): Faster, 2HKOs, avoids being doubled.
Charlotte vs. Sephiran (FE10): Charlotte would need an outright OHKO here, and I don't buy that. Now, if she doubled, and she is close to that, she could take this... mm. Actually, no, Charlotte has partial WTD here, and Seph actually has pretty good evade, so I doubt she'd hit twice anyway. (I agree that discounting terrain probably lets her win, too, but eh the terrain is a feature of the fight and it's very hard to avoid (Parity exists, I know), and I see no problem with relatively rewarding the FE bosses who are smart enough to use it since they're usually way better than fools like Nergal who stand stupidly on an empty panel.)
Charlotte vs. Hrist (VP2): Get wrecked.
Charlotte vs. Deis (BoFs): Faster, isn't doubled, uses instant death or just 2HKOs with magic.
Charlotte vs. Summoner (FF5): Ouch.
Charlotte vs. Justin (G1): That ID axe triggers counters so is unacceptable, and otherwise Charlotte is faster with a 2HKO. Don't think WTD is enough to make her miss once, she can use Bronze + Silver if need be.
Charlotte vs. Martym (TO): Charlotte doubles for me, but Martym's still a tough cookie. Still, if she 4HKOs him, she has this... but could only possibly do it with four silver hits, and no way do all four hit with WTD in there. If she fails to kill in two attack strings, Martym attacks twice, which might not 2HKO by itself but will with his counter to her in there. (If she doesn't attack, he just builds MP/TP.)

Charlotte 5-6
Yveltal 4-7
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 06:15:14 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy/Godlike: Dark duels
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2016, 09:16:16 PM »
Tosh isn't weak to Ice.
"-Elemental Resistances. Every PC has a 20% resistance to their own innate element. There is no corresponding innate weakness to an opposing element!"

Tosh vs. Earthbound Dead (WA4): OHKO.
Tosh vs. Blue Fiend (Lunar 2): Good thing Blue FIend has that fire weakness.
Tosh vs. Victoria (BD): Tosh isn't 2HKOing? Doesn't like magic damage at all...
Tosh vs. Lulu (FFX): Mocks elements and he has no alternates unlike others.
Tosh vs. Citan (XG): Should squeak by after Monji Slash.
Tosh vs. Latios (Pokemon): Resist fire and hits Tosh's Mdef.
Tosh vs. Sephiran (FE10): OHKO.
Tosh vs. Hrist (VP2): too much.
Tosh vs. Deis (BoFs)
Tosh vs. Summoner (FF5): OHKOs?
Tosh vs. Justin (G1): Shouldn't be OHKOd, Invincible and Bonesplitter Axe.
Tosh vs. Benjamin (FFMQ): Halves fire and has durability so the status gets him?