Female dress and consent

[dunie]

But seriously, I am all for social change being taken in measured steps where it can be an it is appropriate.  People that are down to discuss and open to change?  Go for it.

Yeah! And hopefully people here will eventually share their thoughts about dress/women/cons, because that is a point CapK brought up. Photographic consent was touched on more than actual dress and consent.

[Cmdr_King]

Lol, dude literally almost every discussion with activists, especially on the internet, has milquetoast assholes telling them to check their tone and appeal better to the hegemonic power structures they're rallying against.

Case in point...

*shrug* Comment sections will comment section.  In group discussion of issues must be sober and worries about tone are ridiculous.

Out-group efforts towards change on the other hand must be results-oriented.  When you make arguments morality-centered, the strategy is basically to sway people with no strong opinion towards your argument.  Which means children.  Which means you've resigned yourself to waiting 15 years for those children to come of age before change has a plausible means of going forward.

[metroid composite]

Wow, this topic got really meta about how shitty I am at changing people's minds.

It's true, it's all true!  If I was good at convincing people to change their minds, then Paper Mario would have been ranked in the DL!

[VySaika]

But seriously, I am all for social change being taken in measured steps where it can be an it is appropriate.  People that are down to discuss and open to change?  Go for it.

Yeah! And hopefully people here will eventually share their thoughts about dress/women/cons, because that is a point CapK brought up. Photographic consent was touched on more than actual dress and consent.

Not...sure what you mean by this? Or rather how it's different? I'll admit that I understand social issues in much the same way I understand computers(enough to muddle through but fuck if I know what any of the technical terms mean).

Like...dress/women/cons, as in how women should be able to dress at cons? Same way they should be able to dress everywhere else that doesn't have an express dress code, imo: however they want. I mean, if I see someone attractive wearing something designed to show off that attractiveness I'm going to look, sure. Not going to stare or :heavy breathing: like a creep, certainly not going to try to touch or get upskirts/downshirts, and also not going to catcall them or say rude shit. Doesn't seem like it should be that hard to not be a creep?

Of course, I'm told other people don't find it that hard to just walk up to someone they don't know and start a conversation or express opinions without ~anxiety~ tearing them apart, so what do I know about what is/isn't that hard for people. <_<

Still, difficult or not, don't touch/harrass/eyefuck/etc people unless they ACTUALLY, not figuratively, ask for it.

[DragonKnight Zero]

As I see it, how someone chooses to dress is a personal choice and verbal harassment is never warranted, justified, or necessary as a response.  And people are always free to choose how they're going to respond.  Blaming the other person comes from a victim mentality.

I cosplay.  Getting more attention than I would otherwise (mostly positive, a minority takes an unwelcome form) is a predictable outcome.  At no point am I inviting or welcoming anyone to verbally harass me.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Hmm... flipside - as a gay man who does cosplay at cons and clubs and such, I actually quite enjoy all the attention, flirting, groping, come-ons, invitations, and yeah, even the snide whispers are kinda entertaining. Con time is party time, and every time I've gone to one and gotten dressed up, I get a lot more attention than I would if I was in plainclothes and it's really fun and a great conversation starter with other con-goers, which to me has always kinda been the point of going to a huge nerd gathering - meet other nerds!

So... I can see why the lines might be muddled for some people since that environment in itself is kind of meant to encourage social interaction. And cosplay is generally one of the ways a person expresses themselves at those events and usually the message is that they want attention and social interaction. And absolutely yes there is a difference between just talking to someone and verbally harassing them, but... even as a guy who is generally pretty good at picking up on social cues, some girls just get immediately defensive no matter how you approach them (even if you have zero interest in them sexually/romantically like in my case) and once you've made them uncomfortable there's no taking it back. Now, I can completely understand WHY some girls get defensive no matter what, because obviously not everyone is awesome like me and completely without ulterior motives so those women have been given good reason to be defensive. But it does make it hard to know where the line is between "Hey I'm being friendly" and "Hey I'm being a creeper". And I can sympathize with that. 

But perhaps that's my privilege talking? I'm honestly curious how cosplayer girls feel. Surely they have at least SOME of the same desire to get attention? What's the actual line? How much of that line is based on the attractiveness/appearance of the person giving you attention? Because as a fairly attractive guy I know I've gotten away with a lot of stuff that I've seen my less-attractive friends get slapped for.

[dunie]

Not...sure what you mean by this? Or rather how it's different? I'll admit that I understand social issues in much the same way I understand computers(enough to muddle through but fuck if I know what any of the technical terms mean).

I only mean that he posed the question where photographic consent seemed to just be one example. I think social "change," for better or worse, comes from conversations. 

But perhaps that's my privilege talking? I'm honestly curious how cosplayer girls feel. Surely they have at least SOME of the same desire to get attention? What's the actual line? How much of that line is based on the attractiveness/appearance of the person giving you attention? Because as a fairly attractive guy I know I've gotten away with a lot of stuff that I've seen my less-attractive friends get slapped for.

I'm interested in how cosplayers entertain their audience, too. But, I'm at my threshold since I don't cosplay & despite knowing my friends' experiences, I won't speak on their behalf. "Asking" must be part of the actual line. 

In non-cosplay life, I'd use this same line if I primped & styled enough to go out and play in public spaces. The attraction of the person wouldn't matter. Well, maybe I'm lying, I would probably be angrier at the subjectively cuter person because I have all this baggage of cute-people privilege.

[superaielman]

Maybe I'm a male chauvinist pig, but my personal view of it is that women that dress immodestly have no right to complain about being stared at.

In fact, don't be creepy?

So yeah this pretty much. How would you feel if somebody was staring at you? I've had it happen, and I certainly don't enjoy it. And I don't have to be nearly as worried about if the person staring at me in a creepy fashion is planning to sexually assault me. Looking is fine; just have the sense to know when looking crosses the boundary into something creepy.

I feel similarly about photographs mostly. Unless the person is up on a stage (where yeah, I'd say there's an implicit consent given), I'd generally think it's right to ask permission to photo someone at a con. I'd expect the answer would usually be yes, especially if you do it in a way that makes you sound like a decent human instead of a creepy stalker ("Love your outfit! Would you mind if I took a photo?") but it's good to check, y'know? This just all seems like basic courtesy to me.

Basically this. Cap: I don't think anyone's offended, you offered up your honest opinion and explained it .

Djinn: The one thing to keep in mind is that you're a relatively fit, tall male.  It's worlds different as far as being comfortable if the people approaching you are much larger, especially in an environment that tends to attract a lot awkward, larger guys.