Author Topic: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!  (Read 1262 times)

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9632
    • View Profile
Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« on: September 27, 2016, 01:09:14 AM »
The first round's still open, I just want to get this posted while I have time. I am including a bonus unranked fighter in each division. It's a low to chew on, so take your time/etc!

Nicholai- I have no idea how voters will react to him or what form they will take.
Eiko- I always thought she was closer to light than heavy, her buffs are bad and so are her stats. Let's see how she does.
Odin- Is Moppy.
Menardi- Somehow more shameful than Moppy, relies on speed and some bad ID to carry the day.
Seena- Draining's decent! Those stats though, whoof.

Nicholai (SH2) vs Alice (SH1)
Nicholai vs Thief (Bravely Default)
Nicholai vs Natalia (TotA)
Nicholai vs Hahn (PS4)
Nicholai vs Lightning (FF13)
Nicholai vs Mystic Knight (FF5)
Nicholai vs Lily (MK2)
Nicholai vs Bernadette (S5)
Nicholai vs Malak (FFT)
Nicholai vs Tim (WA2)
Nicholai vs Serph (DDS)
Nicholai vs Red Wizard (FF1)

Eiko (FF9) vs Alice (SH1)
Eiko vs Thief (Bravely Default)
Eiko vs Natalia (TotA)
Eiko vs Hahn (PS4)
Eiko vs Lightning (FF13)
Eiko vs Mystic Knight (FF5)
Eiko vs Lily (MK2)
Eiko vs Bernadette (S5)
Eiko vs Malak (FFT)
Eiko vs Tim (WA2)
Eiko vs Serph (DDS)
Eiko vs Red Wizard (FF1)

Odin (VP2) vs Alice (SH1)
Odin vs Thief (Bravely Default)
Odin vs Natalia (TotA)
Odin vs Hahn (PS4)
Odin vs Lightning (FF13)
Odin vs Mystic Knight (FF5)
Odin vs Lily (MK2)
Odin vs Bernadette (S5)
Odin vs Malak (FFT)
Odin vs Tim (WA2)
Odin vs Serph (DDS)
Odin vs Red Wizard (FF1)

Menardi (Golden Sun) vs Alice (SH1)
Menardi vs Thief (Bravely Default)
Menardi vs Natalia (TotA)
Menardi vs Hahn (PS4)
Menardi vs Lightning (FF13)
Menardi vs Mystic Knight (FF5)
Menardi vs Lily (MK2)
Menardi vs Bernadette (S5)
Menardi vs Malak (FFT)
Menardi vs Tim (WA2)
Menardi vs Serph (DDS)
Menardi vs Red Wizard (FF1)

Seena (Lufia 3) vs Alice (SH1)
Seena vs Thief (Bravely Default)
Seena vs Natalia (TotA)
Seena vs Hahn (PS4)
Seena vs Lightning (FF13)
Seena vs Mystic Knight (FF5)
Seena vs Lily (MK2)
Seena vs Bernadette (S5)
Seena vs Malak (FFT)
Seena vs Tim (WA2)
Seena vs Serph (DDS)
Seena vs Red Wizard (FF1)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 02:39:57 AM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2016, 02:43:29 AM »
Yeah none of these duelers are anywhere close to Light, this is an unholy slaughter.  Well, ignoring Menardi/Seena.

Dhyer's numbers have Nicholai at ~1.53 PCHP.  While I doubt I'd be Tide-level disrespect on SH2 boss HP, I'd probably adjust this down a bit (1.0-1.2 or so?).  It doesn't really matter because Nicholai is heal-locking most of the field with his 2HKO and not getting 2HKO'd back.

Nicholai (SH2) vs Alice (SH1)
Magic damage.  EDIT: Alice's defensive buff is apparently better than worthless, and if it's enough to push Nick to a 3HKO, she can win, so sure.
Nicholai vs Thief (Bravely Default)
This is close, but sure, 2x GSS might kill.
Nicholai vs Natalia (TotA)
Nicholai vs Lightning (FF13)
Nicholai vs Mystic Knight (FF5)
EDIT: Sure, I'll buy drain sword hype.
Nicholai vs Bernadette (S5)
Nicholai vs Malak (FFT)
Nicholai vs Tim (WA2)
Nicholai vs Red Wizard (FF1)

6-3

I think Dhyer edited downward the status accuracy of Eiko's status at some point.  Even with that, I'd think she's the high end of Middle, not the low end.

Eiko (FF9) vs Alice (SH1)
Holy resistance, better healing staller anyway.
Eiko vs Thief (Bravely Default)
2-turn Protect shows its worth here!  A single Godspeed Strike is worthless and merely gets healed off.  If Thief gets to 2 BP, then he can threaten a kill, but Eiko just alternate Protect with Mini attempts.  And the vanilla Thief setup has nonexistent damage outside GSS.  Bow-Thief gets horrifically outslugged.
Eiko vs Natalia (TotA)
Mini before Mystic Arte.
Eiko vs Lightning (FF13)
Mini before Odin.
Eiko vs Mystic Knight (FF5)
MK doubles before running out of MP for some nasty status, and I assume Eiko can't block all 3.
Eiko vs Bernadette (S5)
Water resistance.
EDIT: This is more interesting than expected, and hashed out in chat.  Basically Bern's MRes was hyped to hell so Eiko can't just 2HKO her on a double if SL isn't up.  So...  a horrible slapfight then.  Eiko's physicals are like 0.06-0.07 PCHP, but apparently Might doesn't expire for whatever reason, so she can buff them. 

[23:15] <@Elecman> 99 str 33 attack does ~2700 to 0 def

Which would make it a more respectable 6-7HKO.

Apparently Eiko has some stronger weapons, but they're elemental, so she risks randomly having her damage nulled if Bern guesses this and equips the right gear (and also Bern equipping slightly the wrong equip and taking a bit more damage than she needs if otherwise).

Eiko has 29 shots of healing, but will have spent some MP on Might, so somewhat less in practice (14 MP per Might cast?).  Bern has 12 shots of healing, but can arguably force Eiko to heal a little earlier if you don't let Eiko block Silence (I do, so it's moot) because she can threaten to Silent Lake if Bern's HP is good and Eiko's HP is low enough to be finished off by Bern.  Gonna lean on Bern running out of MP first since Eiko's damage catches up to be roughly equivalent to hers, but it's interesting.
Eiko vs Malak (FFT)
Eiko vs Tim (WA2)
Eiko vs Red Wizard (FF1)

8-1

Odin is not horrifically frail to me, around maybe 1 PCHP or so?  Most of these duelers are not really dodging his limit.
EDIT: But apparently Capitol Punishment / Hirank Punish is a limit too, just hiding not in the Odin notes.  Actually that makes Odin notably worse vs. enemies that can do something useful to stall to.  He can at least put up Spell Reinforce if the enemy stalls.

Odin (VP2) vs Alice (SH1)
Holy resistance anyway.  Alice can't dodge the limit.
Odin vs Thief (Bravely Default)
Letting Thief default for turns 1 & 2 (and get a def boost) tips it.
Odin vs Natalia (TotA)
Astral Rain can't really dodge the limit.
Odin vs Lightning (FF13)
Lightning wants to stall for !Odin, but Spell Reinforce high-HP damage still should outrace Lightning.   (And yes, this is holding against everyone with Toughness.)
EDIT: Oh wait, not without his best damage move.  So !Odin beats up Odin then.
Odin vs Mystic Knight (FF5)
Odin vs Bernadette (S5)
Odin vs Malak (FFT)
Odin vs Tim (WA2)
EDIT: FFS.  With Odin's best damage locked behind a limit, he doesn't freaking 2HKO Tim even post-Spell Reinforce.  So Tim can very carefully limit-chip him, then release Hi-Combine.
Odin vs Red Wizard (FF1)

6-3

« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 04:36:34 AM by SnowFire »

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9632
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2016, 06:28:34 PM »
Menardi (VP2) vs Alice (SH1)- ID is out, physicals are halved=one sad 'Godlike'.
Menardi vs Thief (Bravely Default)- Better.
Menardi vs Natalia (TotA)- Has healing and offense. ID might get her but that is so fucking bad.
Menardi vsHahn (PS4)-..I think? Impact up to a heal lock. I don't think Hahn can blitz down in time. E: - Runs Menardi out of MP. She has to buff up twice to heal lock him and that wears off. Hahn can outlast her MP at the worst.
Menardi vs Lightning (FF13)- Doesn't care about the ID and Menardi damage is laughable enough to be deal with by Medic healing.
Menardi vs Mystic Knight (FF5)- Menardi is weak to ice. Goodbye!
Menardi vs Lily (MK2)- Ice weakness is hideously ugly here. Menardi offense so bad that it can't threaten Lily in time.
Menardi vs Bernadette (S5)- Her awful ID is probably enough here.
Menardi vs Malak (FFT)- Death Seize is Venus(Earth) elemental. So the ID is out and I don't think she can blitz through the healing in time? This is pathetic.
Menardi vs Tim (WA2)- Speed. E: NOPE. He has infinite resources and First Aid has first strike, so no lapping. Fail. Fucking. Less. Menardi.
Menardi vs Serph (DDS)- Fire weakness.
Menardi vs Red Wizard (FF1)- Menardi can be silenced, evade buffed into worthlessness *And her ID is blocked* and she still wins? God damn it RW. He needs too many things to go right here I think.


Eiko (FF9) vs Alice (SH1)- Alice is bad against other healers.
Eiko vs Thief (Bravely Default)-2x Godspeedstrike and Eiko dies, horribly. I don't think she can prevent that, especially considering the speed difference.
Eiko vs Natalia (TotA)- Sharpness Natalia should heal lock, I would think. And is going to be faster.
Eiko vs Hahn (PS4)- ID, sure.
Eiko vs Lightning (FF13) Eiko is heal locked here. It's possible her buffs can save the day but they are so freaking bad.
Eiko vs Mystic Knight (FF5)- Status.
Eiko vs Lily (MK2)- Ice defense.
Eiko vs Bernadette (S5)- SL does the job, I think.
Eiko vs Malak (FFT)- Think so. Eiko's status is out and she has trouble damaging Malak.
Eiko vs Tim (WA2)- Nooooooooooope.
Eiko vs Serph (DDS)- Null ice, has fire. Bye Serph!
Eiko vs Red Wizard (FF1)- Yeah sure.


Seena (Lufia 3) vs Alice (SH1)- Alice does not like the draining.
Seena vs Thief (Bravely Default)- This is ugly.
Seena vs Natalia (TotA)- Natalia's not going to get a double before Puzzle splatters her.
Seena vs Hahn (PS4)- ID.
Seena vs Lightning (FF13)- has an easy heal lock but I don't think she can do much with it.
Seena vs Mystic Knight (FF5)-Silence.
Seena vs Lily (MK2)- Ice defense.
Seena vs Bernadette (S5)- SL? Sure.
Seena vs Malak (FFT)- I don't think Malak can actually kill Seena. He can annoy and wall her but it's not enough.
Seena vs Tim (WA2)- Confuse.
Seena vs Serph (DDS)- Draining.
Seena vs Red Wizard (FF1)- Better.

Seena did better than I expected. Not a lot of damage in the field which helps her a lot, granted.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 12:44:33 AM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2207
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2016, 07:27:53 PM »
lol as always to nicholai being notably above pchp

Nicholai (SH2) vs Alice (SH1) - 3HKOs, shouldn't be locked post-Gospel, may well beat out his sluggish first turn.
Nicholai vs Thief (Bravely Default) - Life Thief setup off of that turn split should suffice at worst at a guess, Nicholai magic damage is good enough to 2HKO thief but not really powering through after Burgle & Buff kicks in.
Nicholai vs Hahn (PS4) - Probably, Hahn is pretty slow and frail.
Nicholai vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - Nothing Nick does should outpace Drain Sword and MK is faster.
Nicholai vs Lily (MK2) - Won't kill before Nick gets a second turn.
Nicholai vs Bernadette (S5) - Probably.
Nicholai vs Malak (FFT) - Not Malak, surely.
Nicholai vs Tim (WA2) - Tim can't really afford an action that isn't First Aid here.
Nicholai vs Red Wizard (FF1)

Eiko (FF9) vs Alice (SH1) - Alice vs. Healer.
Eiko vs Thief (Bravely Default) - Alternate Protect and Mini I guess?
Eiko vs Hahn (PS4) - ID.
Eiko vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - Break Sword.
Eiko vs Lily (MK2) - FF9 equip options rear their ugly head.
Eiko vs Bernadette (S5) - e: Might doesn't actually wear off apparently?  That could actually work then if it's true, Bern gives Eiko so much time for that at least.
Eiko vs Malak (FFT)
Eiko vs Tim (WA2)
Eiko vs Red Wizard (FF1)

Menardi (GS) vs Alice (SH1) - Panties save the day, Menardi is pretty easily blitzable and as such I see no reason take her HP literally.
Menardi vs Thief (Bravely Default) - Faster, worst case is Thief needs two Godspeed Strikes, but that should work unless Thief's Mdef is actually bad enough to get 2HKO'd by Supernova
Menardi vs Hahn (PS4) - Hitting that mild water weakness should be enough to outpace anything Menardi can do here.
Menardi vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - Menardi can be silenced, but it probably doesn't matter when shields should let MK outslug anyways.
Menardi vs Lily (MK2) - Again with the mild weakness.
Menardi vs Bernadette (S5) - Bernadette Egan, proving that even with water damage, healing, and silence, it's somehow possible to lose to Menardi.
Menardi vs Malak (FFT) - Death Seize is Earth apparently?  I suppose that does fit my recollection of GS there.  So Menardi needs to keep double Impact up to even threaten Malak here... and if I remember GS buff duration correctly uh that's a lot of time lost, and while Malak does need a lot of time here and could concieveably lose if he misses a heal at the wrong time.  But then I remember Menardi durability plot and think stick beats end up working here to me anyways, though this is closer than he'd like.
Menardi vs Tim (WA2) - e: AHAHAAHA NOPE Thanatos X shuts down Death Seize, First Aid handles things until Menardi runs out of PP.
Menardi vs Red Wizard (FF1) - Not thinking about this k.

Seena (Lufia 3) vs Alice (SH1) - Gospel doesn't do nearly enough to slow the drain game.
Seena vs Thief (Bravely Default) - Better.
Seena vs Hahn (PS4) - Elim.
Seena vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - Any fatal option really.
Seena vs Lily (MK2) - Ice defense.
Seena vs Bernadette (S5) - oh Seena has IP healing options, just what Bern needed here.
Seena vs Malak (FFT) - oh god these two fail completely at doing anything to each other, pass
Seena vs Tim (WA2)
Seena vs Red Wizard (FF1)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 03:21:29 AM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2016, 07:48:18 PM »
super:
Thief doubles don't actually help.  If Eiko alternates Protect & Mini, Protect never goes down.  Say Thief goes all-in and does 2x GSS at 3 BP with a double coming up.  Great, he goes to -3 BP, then on the double turn gets to -2 BP.  Then Eiko heals.  Then Eiko resumes casting Mini, and if it keeps missing, goes back to alternating Protect & Mini once Thief hits 2 BP.

Sharpness Natalia doesn't even manage average damage if I read the stat topic right, so that isn't heal-locking anything (and it gets worse if you use the non-combo damages).  Mini also wrecks her so she doesn't have time to build to an MA, which might let her heal-lock.

FF13 damage averages have an interp split, but..  actually fair point, she 2HKOs for me (w/ Hope/Vanille on Ravager), but it's going to be a lot narrow in the everyone-has-Commando damage average.  So sure, on second thought, Mini's a bad plan.  That said, they're both average speed, so check both tiebreak cases? Eiko can just throw down with *damage* if she goes first and probably muscle past Lightning's suspect healing (she precisely 2HKOs, ~.50 PCHP damage vs. 1.00 PCHP).  It's close because she might run out of MP, but eh, and if it works, it works reliably, giving Eiko the kill reliably.  Meanwhile, when Lightning goes first, Eiko can either use the same damage strat, but YOLO bet on Rebirth Flame, or just try 1 YOLO Mini attempt.  So while Eiko will usually lose if Lightning goes first, she'll sometimes win.  Closer match than I thought, but think Eiko still wins it.

Bern's SL will come *after* she's been owned in the face by Holy or Madeen.  Eiko can surely outslug from there.  What's worse is that if both are still alive on turn 6, Eiko gets to smack Bern with another Holy because Eiko is faster and Bern can't recast SL until it expires.  Bern needs to 4HKO Eiko with physicals AND not be KO'd by Madeen + Eiko beatdown, which I'd be amazed if that was true.  (And to disallow Silence-blocking for Eiko, of course, but I think you do IIRC.)  If Bern doesn't use SL but Bern tries to outlast Eiko's MP, Eiko waits for a double and kills her then.

Un-Truth is silenceable, so Malak needs to block that, and he also needs to block Frog (to stop Mini?), and he also wants to absorb Earth for healing while simultaneously halving Holy, and he doesn't want to tank his HP too badly.  He needs to have the resulting setup enable him to sustain through an Eiko assault of either damage or status with some sort of healing.  FFT is weird so this might be POSSIBLE but I'd want to see the claimed equip setup, as Malak needs to juggle a lot of priorities.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 10:02:31 PM by SnowFire »

Tide

  • Malice Tears
  • Mod Board Access
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1374
  • Cacophony of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 03:50:21 AM »
Voting on this field first ofc because I have to start with the trainwrecks. Just to note, I can of course vote on Nicholai, Moppy AND Menardi. Super has no mercy.

NICHOLAI

Nicholai is like 0.5 PCHP for me on a good day. According to Dhyer's damage numbers he 2HKOs so I guess if he doesn't explode turn 1, being on the wrong side of the speed average, he could do something. Maybe. He might 3HKO instead since levels are slightly higher from what I recall or something but shouldn't matter given that amazing stat spread.

Nicholai (SH2) vs Alice (SH1) - Nicholai goes first, but can't kill Alice. She Gospels, heals the next turn, then 2HKOs him back. Gj Nicholai.
Nicholai vs Natalia (TotA) - 2HKOs, isn't OHKO'd
Nicholai vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - MK uses Drain Sword and pretends he's Gafgarion without the mustache.
Nicholai vs Lily (MK2) - If I'm reading Dhyer's notes right, Kill Point for MK2 is about 4800 damage. So at 0.5 PCHP, Nicholai dies to 2400 damage or so. Lily does this in her sleep and goes first (completes in 1.95 turns). 
Nicholai vs Bernadette (S5) - Bern's damage is uh...not good. Nicholai just needs to not get OHKO'd which he should manage...right? RIGHT?!
Nicholai vs Malak (FFT) - Malak goes first and 3HKOs. Nicholai however 2HKOs. RIP.
Nicholai vs Tim (WA2) - Heal locks at worse.

3-4.
Good job Nicholai. You can beat the mighty Malak and Tim. I hope you are proud of yourself. Actually given who I *can* vote on, you should be proud of yourself - no sarcasm.

EIKO

Is Eiko like the only Middle who isn't horrible abject failure that I can vote on ;_;. Please have mercy.

Eiko (FF9) vs Alice (SH1) - Alice runs into SP issues against any healer. 
Eiko vs Natalia (TotA) - I'm not sure if Sharpness is enough to pressure. Eiko can Mini and a turn or two spent on Sharpness is a turn or two more Eiko can sling that her and the moment it hits, she's dead in the water since Nat can't overcome Eiko's healing at that point.
Eiko vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - I think? Silence Sword/Break Sword are basically killer and Eiko can't win with the 1 turn she gets.
Eiko vs Lily (MK2) - Probably has some sort of Ice equip cheese in there. *Checks*. Yep.
Eiko vs Bernadette (S5) - See above. Silence is also fatal here, even if takes a zillion turns to hit. Bern has some serious offensive issues, and I think this match sort of highlights this. 
Eiko vs Malak (FFT) - Unlike Snowfire, I'm not sure if Malak needs to block transformation type statii. Malak's low faith keeps him pretty safe. Worse yet, he might actually win this through GOKUU ROD Innocent Procs -_-. SUUPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRR!!
Eiko vs Tim (WA2) - Both want to status each other out (Eiko with Silence, Tim with ID) and they have basically the same rate (40%). Eiko's faster, so she wins. Easy. If you see Silence as not catching Force abilities, then Tim wins I think. Eiko can't really stick damage to him without blowing her resources and Tim has infinite healing cheese for that noise.

5-2.
Outside of losing to potentially MALAK, she close to sweeps. This pool isn't even particularly strong, but she is probably a stronger Middle than most people think. In a division where damage isn't that great, her lowish status procs and buckets of healing are often enough.


SNOW'S FAVOURITE DUELER  AKA ODIN
There are three ways I can see you taking Odin. Either that he's extremely frail (~0.3 PCHP, Jeremy tier), but with good offense. This is synonymous with advanced set ups and subsequent crystal playthroughs. Second, you can see him as having really bad damage (Toughness), until about Limit phase but okay durability. This assumes you have modest twinking, but not anything crazy like Option A. Finally, you can see him as being bad at both (Toughness + Offense Twinking), which while it doesn't leave him as frail as in Option A, still probably means he gets 2HKO'd by everything ala Nicholai. None of these are Heavy interps. Personally, I fall into Option A - it's what I'm most accustomed to seeing. This leaves for some hilarious failure I assure you.

Odin (VP2) vs Alice (SH1) - OHKOs with Advent.
Odin vs Natalia (TotA) - OHKOs with her base combo chain.
Odin vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - Mystic Knight actually has to power up! Too bad Odin doesn't have anything really dangerous at full HP and Mystic Knight will likely survive at least 1 Hit. Flare Sword, thwack, ded.
Odin vs Lily (MK2) - Of all the resists that Odin does catch, the one thing he doesn't is ICE. Do you know what killed the All-father?! TEH ICE CREAM
Odin vs Bernadette (S5) - Jesus Christ. Bern runs head first into Odin's Limit range (regardless of physical or Breath of Ice). This gets her gloriously wrecked by his Limit moves which should never ever happen. Failure.
Odin vs Malak (FFT) - For the record, Malak does have some form of damage control thanks to Odin's resists and his equips. Unfortunately for him, any sort of strategy he pulls with chipping relies on a huge amount of luck through Untruth. He either needs things to hit only once, or hit him and not Odin, and so on. Without Untruth, his physicals 2HKO Odin and put him into Limit range like Bern. Two people giving Odin access to Spiritual Lancer. What the flying *fuck*
Odin vs Tim (WA2) - JESUS ON POGOSTICK WHY. Odin goes first, hits Tim with something and gives him enough FP for a L2 Elemental Spell which OHKOs him. Moppy durability is about 7 kinds of amazing. I'm sure Snow will have a field day when he gets to this. SUUPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER!!!

2-5.
What a fucking disaster. Gets OHKO'd by pretty much everything, INCLUDING Tim L2s. I guess in the LIGHT border, some duellers have issues bypassing his amazing 0.3 PCHP range, by doing less than that which in turn means he does splatter with those high damage moves he will normally never see. Next!

Oh no. OH NO NO NO ;_;.


MENARDI
As a reminder, Menardi is essentially WA1o Harken. 5HKO physicals with about a 20% chance to ID (Earth Elemental), 3HKOs if she spends two turns to buff it (but the buffs wear off after about 5 rounds). Has magic that maybe 3HKOs? It's fire so it's pretty easy to cover. She's fast though. Maybe that can save her!? (SPOILERS: No).

Menardi (GS) vs Alice (SH1) - Leonardo's Bear + Cotton Panties = Menardi has no offense and gets beaten to death by Booc. Eph approved.
Menardi vs Natalia (TotA) - 3HKOs first or something. The fact that DEATH SEIZE is her best bet here is just pathetic.
Menardi vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - Blizzaga Sword. Smiting happens after. Menardi can't stop this.
Menardi vs Lily (MK2) -  Menardi's about 125% average CTB speed? So she'll 4-3 Lily, but since she needs to like buff TWICE to even get 2HKO damage (she 5HKOs without...). Chances are, she'll use Supernova and try for the 3HKO. Unfortunately, during that time, Lily can pump out 6218 damage just before the 3rd turn. AND it hits weakness. So if we assume the weakness is about 25%, that's ~7700 damage or about 1.62x above the Kill point. Do I see Menardi within that HP range? No.
Menardi vs Bernadette (S5) - IF ONLY BERN COULD BLOCK ID ;_;
Menardi vs Malak (FFT) - This is some amazing abject failure. Earth Clothes kills the ID and Malak's low faith means Menardi has to go physical. He does lose if he doesn't get a heal off, but there's also that she can get hit by the blast and her durability isn't good enough that I can rule out stick beats. So yeah. AMAZING, but not as amazing as below...
Menardi vs Tim (WA2) - WHAT IS THIS PANDEMONIUM? Menardi needs to buff herself to even scare Tim and unfortunately those buffs have TIMERS. So Tim just sits there and uses First Aid until he gets an open shot (since Menardi needs 2 Impacts to do anything...), then summons Material. As long as he keeps 25 FP in the bank, he won't lose since he can safely open with Thanatos X without eating a OHKO. Oh, and to add insult to injury? The summon is WATER ELEMENTAL so it also hits Weakness and 2HKOs her ass. SUPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER!!!!!

1-6.
...Epic. Gets owned by the Mighty Tim and Mad Dog Malak. Only wins against Bern because she can't block ID. When your record in this spectacular mess of a pool is a 1-6, you know you're a real winner.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 04:04:29 AM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

Jo'ou Ranbu

  • Social Justice Steampunk Literature Character
  • New Age Retro Fucking Hipster
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 12988
  • Ah'm tuff fer mah size!
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2016, 07:29:57 PM »
Nicholai in a nutshell for me: 0.87x PC HP, speed rougly in the 95% average range first turn, about average afterwards. High 3HKO damage off his physical, less impressive 3HKO off his spells. SDef-busting lets him scrape a 2HKO on those vulnerable, but not with Bright Crest+Meteor Burst.

Nicholai Conrad (SH2) vs Alice Elliot (SH1) - NINJA EDIT: Uh yeah, Gospel should keep the 2HKO away even post-Bright Crest and she's actually faster on the draw. Fail.
Nicholai Conrad vs Thief (Bravely Default) - Yeah, Thief 3-2s and one-rounds Nicholai. Tough.
Nicholai Conrad vs Natalia Luzu-Kimlasca Lanvaldear (TotA) - EDIT: I fail, Nicholai can't 2HKO off the bat and Natalia 3HKOs him first. Derp.
Nicholai Conrad vs Hahn Mahlay (PS4) - Nic heal-locks Hahn with his physical. Sucks to be him.
Nicholai Conrad vs Claire "Lightning" Farron (FF13) - 3HKOs first. Nicholai wishes he could 2HKO straight off with Bright Crest+Meteor Burst.
Nicholai Conrad vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - Spellblade Drain -actually lets Mystic Knight drain indefinitely against Nicholai-. Oh wow.
Nicholai Conrad vs Lilianne Valendorf (MK2) - 2HKOs with his physical, isn't 2HKOed back. Sigh.
Nicholai Conrad vs Bernadette Egan (S5) - Bernadette's below average pdur dooms her here.
Nicholai Conrad vs Malak Galtanna (FFT) - Physicals!
Nicholai Conrad vs Tim Rhymeless (WA2) - Tim. Nic outdamages First Aid, to begin with.
Nicholai Conrad vs Serph (DDS) - Nicholai has the unfortunate distinction of losing to a dueller with perfectly average speed, durability and damage. Serph at least has above average damage and durability while being average speed.
Nicholai Conrad vs Red Wizard (FF1) - Bright Crest => Meteor Burst setups should be a bit much, I think? Red Wizard has no real way to mitigate that and he's kinda magically fragile to boot.

Eiko Carol (FF9) vs Alice Elliot (SH1) - Alice against other healers rarely goes well.
Eiko Carol vs Thief (Bravely Default) - Uh, guys, Godspeed Strike ignores defense and we have no evidence that FF9 Protect lowers physical damage of that nature. So yeah, Eiko gets one shot at this and while Thief MDEF/MND is egregious enough to give Mini a case to be turn one, I don't feel comfortable giving FF9 status accuracy that much credit, especially when Dhyer pegs it at sub-40% base hit rate.
Eiko Carol vs Natalia Luzu-Kimlasca Lanvaldear (TotA) - Natalia just 3HKOs Eiko and it takes her around eight turns of attacking to fill that Overlimit gauge. I don't think Natalia's fast enough to double within that timeframe given Eiko's average speed and Eiko herself should get about four castings of Mini before the fatal turn. Yeah, on average she should have this.
Eiko Carol vs Hahn Mahlay (PS4) - Eliminat's turn one against Eiko and Hahn gets multiple shots at it. Yeah, he can rock this.
Eiko Carol vs Claire "Lightning" Farron (FF13) - Whoever's faster is a coinflip. However, if Light goes first, Eiko just eventually loses because she runs out of resources due to a heal-lock (the very rare dodge won't really flip this, she has no tide-turning options that last any appreciable amount of time or sport any reliability) while Eiko isn't all that much better off if she goes first. Gestalt Mode might not be very relevant here, since Eiko nulls Thunder, but otherwise this doesn't look good for her.
Eiko Carol vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - Eiko can do approximately zilch to stop Spellblade Death from doing its magic.
Eiko Carol vs Lilianne Valendorf (MK2) - FF9 equipment nonsense.
Eiko Carol vs Bernadette Egan (S5) - Bernadette mdef + Yellow Scarves = I take Eiko's Silence hit rate as 0% here. I suppose Bern can just toss Breaths of Ice until ICY POIZN lands and then she goes to town with Silent Lake - or just go straight to SL, since Eiko's Might is awful (IT LASTS TWO TURNS). Mini isn't very useful either, Bern's healing also cures status and the already miserable hit rate becomes even worse after Bern's magic defense. Eiko can try to play her own games, I suppose, but feels like she has less control over the match flow than Bern does.
Eiko Carol vs Malak Galtanna (FFT) - Doesn't Malak have a Petrify proc quarterstaff to seal the fight in his favor here? Eiko seriously struggles to damage him and her status options are downright useless here to boot.
Eiko Carol vs Tim Rhymeless (WA2) - Eiko 2HKOs Tim off considerably better speed in a way that should outrace First Aid. Heck, if she wants, she can attempt Silence and then finish him off.
Eiko Carol vs Serph (DDS) - Eiko IMMUNES ICE AND HITS FIRE WEAKNESS. Serph just puts on a blindfold and lights up a smoke.
Eiko Carol vs Red Wizard (FF1) - Red Wizard not very good.

Yeah, late C5 and Sharp Sword Law mean I have absolutely no good will towards any Odin competence hype. Phyress could 5HKO him with a Flame Shot - as in, the single attack. This said, I'd honestly rather not see him in any field ever due to the large interp split the level of twinking available in VP2 causes as a rule of thumb. Regardless: 0.3x PC HP + 3-4HKO damage until 66% HP, when he unlocks the borderline 2HKO Capitol Punishment, and then half HP, at which point he unlocks a 75% PC HP Spirit Lance, but by then it's just too late.

Moppy (VP2) vs Alice Eliott (SH1) - Alice doesn't OHKO Moppy! She doesn't really have to, at worst Gospel means Spirit Lance -tickles- her.
Moppy vs Thief (Bravely Default) - No need to even Default. Godspeed Strike OHKOs.
Moppy vs Natalia Luzu-Kimlasca Lanvaldear (TotA) - OHKO.
Moppy vs Hahn Mahlay (PS4) - OHKO.
Moppy vs Claire "Lightning" Farron (FF13) - OHKO.
Moppy vs Mystic Knight (FF5) - OHKOs after Flare Spellblade. What in the hell is Moppy doing with a single turn at full HP?
Moppy vs Lilianne Valendorf (MK2) - Lily actually needs to run Glaceration here because Moppy resists Ice and using timed cards means he gets a turn to OHKO her. This said, Glaceration itself OHKOs and Moppy is a complete loser at full HP.
Moppy vs Bernadette Egan (S5)[/b] - Bern can't OHKO Moppy and gets heal-locked by Spirit Lance... and yeah, even Capitol Punishment honestly kinda sucks for her. Oh well.
Moppy vs Malak Galtanna (FFT) - Malak has far less reliable damage control and risks ramming into Spirit Lance range fairly often. This isn't open and shut, but I suppose I can throw Moppy a bone.
Moppy vs Tim Rhymeless (WA2) - At absolute worst, OHKOs turn two.
Moppy vs Serph (DDS) - Serph actually doesn't OHKO Moppy, but he can survive two Absolute Reigns (did you know it hits weakness?) and chip-2HKOs.
Moppy vs Red Wizard (FF1) - Actually, Red Wizard can't really work well against even Capitol Punishment, can he? He also needs to chip-2HKO and I'm not sure he manages. If Bern couldn't...
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 07:04:04 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 07:56:49 PM »
Jo'ou: Hmm, I don't see Thief 3-2ing average speed, but varying TB speed interps & caps plot, I guess. 

For FF9 Protect, searching the BMG indicates that Vivi/Steiner Sword Magic ignores Protect despite hitting enemy defense, and Steiner's Darkside does as well.  Meanwhile I'm pretty sure that set-damage attacks like Flare Star (based on level, so ITD?) can be Shell'd.  So yeah, I can see hype for maybe FFT Swordskillers getting around FF9 Protect, but probably not ITD attacks in general.  EDIT: But wait, apparnetly Thievery / Dragon Crest type nonsense do ignore Shell/Protect?  Huh, FF9.jpg, I have no idea then.  I'll just leave this here that I'm puzzled too about what if any rules FF9 has on what can be protect'd and what can't be.

If Eiko goes first vs. Lightning, she should probably 2HKO first?  It's really close, though, admittedly, and if she doesn't she just loses.  I usually kneejerk Lightning's healing at around 40% of her HP, which isn't enough to outlast Eiko's MP before it gets overwhelmed, but I could be off on that.

Total nitpick, but Eiko can stop MK's spellblades just fine, with Dispel!   ...temporarily, and the status spellblades are cheap.  She still loses because MK is fast and will eventually double, but if MK was slower-but-not-2HKO'd, she'd probably be okay.

Eiko vs. Bern, Eiko absorbs water, so ICY POIZN is secretly regen for Eiko and probably a bad plan.  It's all about buff'd flute/racket beatdown.

It came up in chat, but Odin's HP limits are annoyingly spread out in the stat topic.  Capitol Punishment unlocks at 2/3 HP, Spiritual Lancer unlocks at 1/2 HP.  (It barely matters if you see Odin as having THAT horrible HP, of course.)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 08:03:47 PM by SnowFire »

Jo'ou Ranbu

  • Social Justice Steampunk Literature Character
  • New Age Retro Fucking Hipster
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 12988
  • Ah'm tuff fer mah size!
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 08:27:31 PM »
Eiko vs. Bern, Eiko absorbs water, so ICY POIZN is secretly regen for Eiko and probably a bad plan.  It's all about buff'd flute/racket beatdown.

Does it work that way in S5? I dunno if there are any water-absorbing enemies in the game, but I've always figured the POIZN to be non-elemental, and FF9 has no mechanic regarding elemental saps either. Regardless, I also slapped an edit to the post realizing that SL spamming might possibly be a better bet. I suppose it rams into Protect strategies, but my respect for FF9 protect duration = .

Regarding Light vs. Eiko, she misses the 2HKO (46% to average) with Holy and only has eight shots of it. Madeen actually borderline 2HKOs, but is even worse: she has five shots of it and then can't even cast Holy afterwards, so Lightning actually should be able to patch herself up before the fatal range. I wish we still had the wiki stat topic on FF13 handy, since the 2HKO is milicentesimal and a precise number would make the difference between life and death.

Quote
It came up in chat, but Odin's HP limits are annoyingly spread out in the stat topic.  Capitol Punishment unlocks at 2/3 HP, Spiritual Lancer unlocks at 1/2 HP.  (It barely matters if you see Odin as having THAT horrible HP, of course.)

Yeah, I edited the ranges into my post.

EDIT:

So yeah, I can see hype for maybe FFT Swordskillers getting around FF9 Protect

Um, why? This doesn't even make -any mechanical sense-, FFT swordskills ram into Protect in-game.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 01:32:46 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2016, 02:52:24 PM »
Because some of FF9's get around protect. I don't agree, mind; I feel that the two games' Protects are so similar that I'm happy to use attacker's definition: FFT swordskills are affected by Protect, as are FF9's Seiken, but not FF9's Darkside or Magic Sword.

I'm pretty skeptical that icy poizn is elemental as well (and if it were I would certainly treat it as ice, not water; S5 combines the elements but FF9 does not and the flavour is obvious). However, I wouldn't be stunned if ice-immune enemies also automatically immune that status. This requires more testing.


Mystic Knight (FF5)'s spellblades are not dispellable. Even if it were, it wouldn't matter here; Brave x3 -> Death Spellblade, Attack x3 kills.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2016, 04:24:35 PM »
For ICY POIZN: Yeah, I honestly don't know if there are any comparable examples in-game.  It is certainly *possible* that it's actually non-elemental damage.  I guess we'd need to find a rare Suiko5 enemy who has that ability and attempt to get it to hit a PC with ice immunity?  (or see Elf, maybe if it was hacked in it'd be non-elemental, but it never actually hits ice-immune enemies).

For GSS vs. Protect: Oh, I probably would use attacker's definition as well, but there are times where the defender's version of status is screwy enough that it should "win," and I assumed that was what Jo'ou was doing, because if we're talking BD it seems pretty clear cut Protect should "work."  Well...  BD "Protect" doesn't work because it's a stat-buff, but FF9 Protect isn't a stat buff, it's "calculate damage, then you take 1/2 of it."  That corresponds pretty clearly to BD Default, which *does* work fine against ITD.  (Granted, there are some issues because GSS is damage-capped, and Default will take a 14000 damage attack and make it 7000 damage, not 5000....   so you could argue that Protect "works" against GSS, but less well than you'd think because it's halving the overkill damage, not 9999 damage.)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 05:08:47 PM by SnowFire »

Jo'ou Ranbu

  • Social Justice Steampunk Literature Character
  • New Age Retro Fucking Hipster
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 12988
  • Ah'm tuff fer mah size!
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2016, 04:57:00 PM »
Yeah, I can see the case for taking BD default as the baseline, but I don't think they correlate too well: there are attacks that break through Default by design (hell, there's even a passive that allows attacks to do so) and, to me, it's fairly clearly meant as a separate mechanic from what even FF Protect usually is. FF9 Protect's holes are more byzantine and arbitrary (because FF9 doesn't care for mechanical transparency much) and Protect itself is pretty trashy in-game, so it tends to get holistic interp calls against it when in doubt.

EDIT: for whatever it's worth, on the PC end, I -think- I've seen characters with Flame Array Chain fire immunity setups get burned and damaged by it, which is the fire analog to Icy Poizn in-game, but the mechanics may well work differently for enemies, which is the clincher.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 05:00:32 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

DragonKnight Zero

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 519
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds 2- L/M- Moppy Prism Power!
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2016, 09:20:15 AM »
I go by the mechanics guide formula for status accuracy.  For Silence and Mini, that's 50% base, increased by Magic/4 , affected by level difference, and blocked by magic evade factors.

Eiko vs Hahn (PS4): Good enough magic evade to avoid an opening status spell (even without Psy Shield), then lands an instant death ability.
Eiko vs Mystic Knight (FF5)
Eiko vs Malak (FFT): With his Mustadio levels of damage.  Malak lacks the tools to blitz.  He needs Gold Hairpin otherwise Eiko will eventually silence him. 108 Gems to block Mini, and Earth Clothes for self healing.  This doesn't tank his HP too badly and with all this... I believe he out-sandbags Eiko.  Since she doesn't pressure very fast, as long as he attempts Sky Demon Backs early enough so he gets more than one chance, he can stay up.  It will take an age of sandbagging and stick pokes whenever he has a chance to run her out of MP and then another eternity to claim a win but he can do this.  Gokou Rod helps since, while an Innocent proc only lasts about three turns (and he's not killing unless Eiko lets her HP drop too low), it still threatens Eiko into healing more often to remain above the danger range.

Well this is an interesting matchup.  Talk about spoiled.