Author Topic: Season 41, Week 6 (Read 5605 times)

superaielman · « **on:** March 29, 2008, 06:51:58 AM »

Team Jenna vs Team Yuna

Heavy/Godlike:

Ryu3, Berle, Xenobia, Zed, Gades, Kharg

Middle/Heavy:

Belcoot, Tifa, Lynx, Hojo, Canas, Peter

Light/Middle:

Nash, Luke, Kornell, Shiba, Lani, Ricardo

superaielman · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2008, 06:56:23 AM »

No idea on the team match.

Heavy/Godlike:

Ryu3>Gades>Berle>Xenobia>Kharg>>>>Zed.

Easy power tiering. Ryu crushes all, Gades crushes all but Ryu, Berle beats up some scrubs, Xenobia's vague claim to Godlike more than trumps the other two. Kharg is a Heavy PC so he easily handles Zed.

How I think it'll go:

Zed down, Gades up, Kharg stays in Heavy.

Middle/Heavy:

How I'll vote:

Belcoot>>>Lynx>Canas=Peter>Tifa>Hojo

Belcoot crushes all. Think Lynx's uncounterable damage handles Canas, he can chip past Tifa, Hojo sucks, Peter is too slow ther.e Canas/Peter happened on site already, both crush Tifa and Hojo pretty easily. Tifa trumps really shitty FF7 boss.

How I think it'll go:

I.. hmm. Hojo down, and.. Tifa? yeah. Low totals help Lynx and hurt her. One of the weakest M/H pools I can recall though- Peter does not deserve to go back up to Heavy.

Light. Oh god.

Kornell>Lani>Nash>Ricardo>Luke>Shiba.

Only thing I had to think on was Luke vs Ricardo, rest were easy.

Thinking that Shiba goes down and.. hell. Will Luke downgrade? That is the question of the day. I'm leaning no here. Ricardo stays down and hilariously wins 7 fucking matches in a row and STILL can't buy an upgrade.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2008, 08:02:39 AM »

Team Jenna vs Team Yuna:

Lani does something.

Yuna summons Anima, OHKOs Lani. Tanks some hits (Jenna isn't dangerous offensively yet), OHKOs Canas. Possibly gets off Oblivion before going down if Jenna/Gades try evadeable attacks, but regardless, by the time she's dead, it's Jenna and Gades vs. a full, healthy team which includes Ricardo's buffing game and a whole lot of healing... not to mention more aeons on the way.

That's assuming a competent Gades, mind. It's even less close for me.

Heavy/Godlike:

Ryu3 > Xenobia > Berle > Zed > Gades

Ryu3 smash. Xenobia beats Berle because I always let duellers attack in Meta-Guard openings which means speed doesn't matter, and Xenobia is tough against physicals. Zed is Heavy. Gades is Light. Yeah.

Middle/Heavy:

Belcoot > Tifa > Canas > Peter. Hojo and Lynx... hmm.

Belcoot can chip then finish against Tifa. An increased crit rate should help him beat Canas at worst? Sure. I'm not certain there, granted. Owns the other two.

Tifa beats Canas because he lacks overwhelming damage, and will have trouble dancing around even a L2. Not to mention, a L1 doubled with a physical probably kills him, and a limit turn triggered off a counter would be ugly. She beats Peter because Peter can't damage control at all, a simple armour choice ensures his damage will be high enough to eat a L2. Hojo gets owned by Sleep immunity.

Hojo might have a chance against both Lynx and Peter, since neither block sleep or are overly impressive. Open to arguments.

No clue on Lynx, although he should beat up the scrubbier duellers. Hojo and Peter at worst.

Light/Middle:

Nash, Luke, Kornell, Shiba, Lani, Ricardo

Lani > Kornell > Nash >>> Ricardo > Luke >>>> Shiba

Lani is too much faster than Kornell. Both beat Nash via status immunity and then there's a large dropoff. Ricardo should be able to stall Luke and finish with a double easily enough, I think. Shiba is just godawful.

cloudstrifesheart · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2008, 08:54:10 AM »

Xenobia>Zed>Berle>Ryu3>Gades>Karg

Seriously, what is with the Zed hatred on this board. Well it depends on what form you allow him. His Monster Z form doesn't differ much between the original and Alter Code F. His PC form is low Heavy at best. His Monster Z transformation form is Middle to semi-high godlike. He has status immunity, insane damage, decent defense, and great speed. I hear a lot of people say on this board that he barely even deserves Heavy. How the hell can a low PC like Karg take down Monster Z one on one. THAT IS INSANE

Talaysen · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2008, 09:50:09 AM »

Quote from: cloudstrifesheart on March 30, 2008, 08:54:10 AM

Xenobia>Zed>Berle>Ryu3>Gades>Karg

Seriously, what is with the Zed hatred on this board. Well it depends on what form you allow him. His Monster Z form doesn't differ much between the original and Alter Code F. His PC form is low Heavy at best. His Monster Z transformation form is Middle to semi-high godlike. He has status immunity, insane damage, decent defense, and great speed. I hear a lot of people say on this board that he barely even deserves Heavy. How the hell can a low PC like Karg take down Monster Z one on one. THAT IS INSANE

Monster Z is an optional boss, so most people don't allow it.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2008, 10:04:18 AM »

An optional superboss whose powers are completely out of line with all of Zed's other forms at that.

cloudstrifesheart · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2008, 10:21:23 AM »

So what do you allow? His PC form and his normal boss forms as he appears throughout the game. If you allow his PC form, you would have to allow the Monster Z form as well because you have to defeat him as Monster Z in order for him to join you.

Grefter · « **Reply #7 on:** March 30, 2008, 10:33:45 AM »

Or you could hold him to what his last appearance was, which is the PC form. ACF Monster Z is also not that special a boss.

cloudstrifesheart · « **Reply #8 on:** March 30, 2008, 10:50:30 AM »

It depends at what level you are when you face him. I will admit though his original Monster Z transformation was harder. I still think is Monster Z transformation is worthy of godlike. I guess it depends on who allows it and who doesn't.

Grefter · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2008, 02:27:48 PM »

Monster Z original is broken retarded and a Super boss which would doom Zed to the endless pits of Do Not Rank. ACF Monster Z is rankable. Milage varies on stuff, but meh.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2008, 05:34:01 PM »

I thought ACF was the good one. Original's not that great a Godlike, HP isn't far above PC, damage is good but not OHKO, etc., he's mostly about status. Haven't fought ACF's, though, which is strange given how much more I like ACF.

EDIT: Yeah, ACF form has triple the HP of the (admittedly frail) final boss and damage that is past 2x PC overkill, if SI is to be believed (and he's rarely off by -that- much). That's the broken one.

Anyway, CSH hit on why I don't allow the PC form either. Aftergame is aftergame. But PC still feels more legal than Monster Z to me. (I vote on the in-game boss form.)

Talaysen · « **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2008, 07:26:52 PM »

Quote from: cloudstrifesheart on March 30, 2008, 10:21:23 AM

So what do you allow? His PC form and his normal boss forms as he appears throughout the game. If you allow his PC form, you would have to allow the Monster Z form as well because you have to defeat him as Monster Z in order for him to join you.

Whether or not Monster Z has to be fought beforehand is irrelevant to me. He's still an optional boss.

But yeah, I allow PC form and the forced boss fights.

Quote from: Dark Holy Elf on March 30, 2008, 05:34:01 PM

Anyway, CSH hit on why I don't allow the PC form either. Aftergame is aftergame. But PC still feels more legal than Monster Z to me. (I vote on the in-game boss form.)

You don't have to beat the game to get him, and you can use him against the final boss, so it's not even aftergame. Hell, I think you can do it at endgame levels just fine.

Shale · « **Reply #12 on:** March 30, 2008, 08:11:07 PM »

It doesn't seem contradictory to me to disallow both the optional boss form and the PC form that requires you to beat the optional boss.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2008, 08:32:17 PM »

Tal: Monster Z is obviously an optional superboss. You don't need to beat Indalecio in order to beat Iseria Queen, but Iseria Queen is still aftergame as far as I'm concerned. Similar situation exists in VP2.

Monster Z and PC Zed, like those games, requires you to go deep into the final dungeon, leave, go out, and beat something stronger than the final boss. That's aftergame to me.

Grefter · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2008, 10:01:41 PM »

Mmm I must be jumbling up Monster Z appearances. I remember WA1 being retarded, but I remember all the WA1 bosses being retarded. Z stands out for his OHKO MT damage that most of them had with stupid statuses attatched to it. I had thought ACF had huge completely avoidable damage, might have just been an in game thing though.

BaconForTheSoul · « **Reply #15 on:** March 30, 2008, 10:11:05 PM »

Team Jenna vs Team Yuna- Yuna is more fun in team matches because people can actually pound through her Aeons. The problem here is that from my understanding Jenna needs to actually get to form 2 enough to become dangerous. Yuna opens with Anima to splatter Lani/Canas. Bring in the other's to splatter Gades. Then just buff the living shit out of her team before killing Jenna 1. All the arguments I saw have Jenna 1-2 as SAME FIGHT so these buffs shouldn't go away. (If they do, then fuck allowing both of them.) Super buffed team Yuna > Jenna from what I've seen.

Heavy/Godlike:
Ryu3 > Xenobia > Gades > Berle (think that's how I voted)

Middle/Heavy:
Hojo > Canas > Lynx > Tifa

Lani > Nash > All or somethign

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #16 on:** March 30, 2008, 10:18:53 PM »

Quote from: Grefter on March 30, 2008, 10:01:41 PM

Mmm I must be jumbling up Monster Z appearances. I remember WA1 being retarded, but I remember all the WA1 bosses being retarded. Z stands out for his OHKO MT damage that most of them had with stupid statuses attatched to it. I had thought ACF had huge completely avoidable damage, might have just been an in game thing though.

Cecilia could use a Summon to MT her physical reflect move, so the ACF form was decently walled by that despite it's nasty, nasty ST damage.

Heavy/Godlike:

Ryu 3- Loses to Kharg, beats everyone else.
Gades- Beats Everyone Else, I think
Berle- Beats everyone else. Xenobia's speed sinks her there. Actually, unsure about him and Kharg.
Kharg- Unsure about Xenobia. Beats Zed, as does everyone.

Ryu 3- 4-1
Gades- 4-1
Kharg 2-1
Berle 2-2
Xenobia 1-3
Zed 0-5

Middle/Heavy:
Pain.

Light
Kornell>Lani>Nash>Ricardo>Luke>Shiba

All decently clear cut here.

Sei · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2008, 12:55:39 AM »

Plot-wise, wasn't Monster Z explicitly stated in ACF to be a one time power-up that Alhazad gave Zed?

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2008, 04:41:29 AM »

WA1 Monster Z was a lot nastier in general as a fight, with a good mix of speed, status, and damage (though only in the high 2HKO range and ST, which definitely hurts him). Didn't see him as... notably undurable. He kinda rides the border of superboss territory; more or less managable at endgame power, but a very clear step up from the required and most other optional bosses (admittedly, the Golems just sucked in WA1.)

ACF Monster Z translates better, since he's marginally faster than Jane (which is holy shit-level) and tends to kill what he hits dead, but is way easier as a fight because ACF gives you lots of options to deal with that sort of threat (ie overkill evadable physicals. Also, he's NOT faster than Jane using Follow Me). You do have to go into the final dungeon and backtrack for him, but again he's definitely managable at endgame power and despite having multiple times any required bosses HP felt frail. Of course, I mock endgame ACF bosses as sub-half fractions of PC HP (OHKOed with minimal twinking? Yeah, that's a bad sign.) But, he's really on the lower end of ACF optionals, so he doesn't scan as being in the superboss DNR territory.
Buuuutt... he then falls into the trap of "arbitrarily gets worse as a PC", which for me is a sure sign of punting said boss forms and voting on the PC. There's plot explainations for him getting worse, but they involve Monster Z being basically an unrepeatable power, making it even more questionable in legality.

All that said, hey, no body's going to keep you from voting how you see fit. This is just why you probably shouldn't expect people to really agree with you.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2008, 05:02:57 PM »

Personally I found WA1o Monster Z easy (didn't OHKO anyone, didn't have Dispel so he got Ceciliowned). Easier than the final boss even, Cecilia is too good. But yeah, I wouldn't judge superbosses by how easy they are. FFX Ultima and Omega Weapon are easier than some endgame bosses and are clearly intended as aftergame bosses; if you think otherwise then Seymour and Jecht get all those levels from the Omega Ruins held against them and fail utterly.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2008, 06:39:59 PM »

Well, in general easiness and how it's scaled compared to required endgame is the only particular indicator of whether something's optional or aftergame, barring the rare cases in which you really DO have to beat the game to unlock it (for some reason no one does this, although Tri-Ace does or just tells you it's non-canon insanity generally.) But since easiness is incredibly subjective it's still not a good indicator which is why we generally try not to think about either *cough*

cloudstrifesheart · « **Reply #21 on:** April 04, 2008, 04:49:44 AM »

Yeah, he got his Monster Z form because of Alhazad. He experimented on Zed and gave him a new body.

cloudstrifesheart · « **Reply #22 on:** April 04, 2008, 04:50:43 AM »

Seriously, how in hell does Kharg beat Zed?

superaielman · « **Reply #23 on:** April 04, 2008, 04:56:11 AM »

Wild ARMs 1 Zed only for me, who isn't very good. ACF Zed should toast him.

BaconForTheSoul · « **Reply #24 on:** April 04, 2008, 05:01:08 AM »

Quote from: cloudstrifesheart on April 04, 2008, 04:50:43 AM

Seriously, how in hell does Kharg beat Zed?

Against, most people don't seem to allow Monster Z. If we all had the same opinions on everything this site would get really boring in about 5 seconds since no once wants to see 90-0 blowouts every match.

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Author Topic: Season 41, Week 6 (Read 5605 times)