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Author Topic: What Games are you Playing 2017?  (Read 80867 times)

Shale

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #725 on: June 28, 2017, 09:25:22 PM »
Shovel Knight: Specter of Torment -- finished with all Red Skulls. Stays fun throughout, and twists the difficulty curve around some -- bosses are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier than they are for Shovel or Plague Knight, while platforming is trickier and twitchier because you're zipping around the screen with limited ability to control your angles and speed. That's not a bad thing, though! It's actually a bit reminiscent of the PS2 Shinobi reboot, which I thought was really good.

Super Mario 3D World: I never 100%'ed this. Last weekend I decided to fix that. Started at the end of World Mushroom, and am now into World Crown. The Flower levels were....surprisingly balanced? I expected way more unfairness, but being precise and reasonably quick will get you through the levels, even the most strictly timed ones. Well, that and Rosalina's double jump.

World Crown so far:
1/5 stars on the final Captain Toad level
Yet to try Champion Road
17/30 stars in the Mystery House
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NotMiki

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #726 on: June 28, 2017, 11:02:55 PM »
Yakuza 0 - Kiryu's idling animation is to smoke a cigarette. 80's/10.

Castle in the Darkness - started a NG+ of this.  Died another 50 times on the way to the castle.  Love how fast-paced everything in the game is.  Needs better fast travel tho.  Go fig.

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SnowFire

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #727 on: June 29, 2017, 03:38:58 AM »
Random belated comment: I mostly agree with Elf & Fenrir's quip about the strange casualness that many RPG characters have toward battles, but...  even if it's life-or-death for the characters, it's a game for the player, so hey, have the characters talk about how much fun they're having, maybe it'll rub off on the player!

More seriously, there's a spectrum of tone in games from Mario Bros. (sure, Mario might "die", but you take deaths about as seriously as a three-dollar bill because you're in a brightly colored land of extra-life magic mushrooms and teleporting pipes) to The Banner Saga (your characters can die even in the visual novel segment from random non-battle crap if you choose poorly, and you the player will be guilted about it, you monster).  The middle definitely has some games where Yon Vanilla Enemy is closer to Mario, and only the Big Bads can credibly threaten to kill anyone, so having fun during battles is a lot more reasonable as they aren't actually dangerous.  I always liked DQV's marriage vows of "To love and cherish, in sickness and health, for as long as you both shall be resurrected from the church?"  Yeah, the cute DQ monsters aren't really killing you, but the Big Bads *can* fuck you up, interestingly enough picking methods that aren't direct death (and thus subverted in-setting) but are pretty horrible anyway.  Ah, nothing like getting kidnapped into slavery, escaping, then getting turned into a stone statue and having your wife kidnapped while other people raise your kids as you watch in horror, powerless.  So it CAN be balanced, just usually isn't.

Why do I bring this up?  Well, because of...

Trails of Cold Steel II
Got to the Infernal Castle.  Niu was right, this is really really dumb.  Oh well.

This is a setting of Ultimate Nerf Combat where nobody is in remote danger of death after having the crap kicked out of them in battle, but more alarmingly, nobody seems in danger plot-wise.  "Oh don't worry, party member whose close family member has been kidnapped by the other side.  They're an important political figure, so they're probably safe."  No!  No they're not!  That's not how this works!  Key leaders of one "side" kidnapped by the other are, like, in the top 100 most likely to get randomly executed list, and even if they weren't before, then a bunch of kids barging in the front door to save them could easily trigger a panicked guard executing them since you didn't attempt to be sneaky and free them first!  (And I should add that, like, random soldiers in towns miles away seem to know exactly where you're going and when, so this isn't really much of a secret that you're coming...)  Ugh.  Why would the writer even want to take away from the drama of the situation?  Wouldn't it be MORE intense if Our Hero said "Yeah, crap, your relative is probably in huge danger, we better save them now before the war takes a turn for the worse for the other side and they start doing desperate crazy things!"  Or even "let's offer to trade our runaway son from their side in exchange for your relative's safety?"  Sigh.

Other nitpicks:
* Kinda disappointed about Rean's final S-Craft.  Azure Flame Slash was maybe the best S-Craft in the series for my tastes: reasonably fast, a bit ragged, and definitely focused on fucking the enemy up.  It looks actually painful - two slashes and then a penetrating charge.  Termination Slash -Dawn- is closer to "pose a lot then have a huge explosion fire off", with only like 1 second spent on actually slashing at the enemy rather than just dancing against nothing.  Alas.  Kinda the same problem a lot of the gun S-Crafts have, all Big Explosions from satellite lasers or whatever blend together after awhile.  Keep it simple.  ( https://youtu.be/UXxpAeQ0yvo?t=10m12s for reference)

* TIME nitpicking?  Yeah.  Okay, sure, FF7 doesn't care if you go to an inn like 300 times while Meteor is coming, I get it, time always passes in a matter convenient for the player.  But...  "oh hey, at noon we do a totally unplanned assault, you have this morning to visit every town again, go on a fetch quest, hunt down 4 epic monsters, do some intense training, forge new weaponry, etc." is a little weird.  Couldn't they have had even one day for sidequesting, then one day for the operation?  What psycho would do all that right before?  There's even a line in-game about how "it's hard to believe it's only been two months since the start of (this game)."  Yeah, no kidding, it's IMPOSSIBLE to believe that.  Just add a few more days in to the calendar, nobody will complain.

* https://goo.gl/photos/HiWt8SnAF5jVWxZm9   Random & Sopko already admired this in chat.  Note the Delay values.  Considering who's watching in-game, I decided to not hold back and do my best.  That poor boss wondering when she'll be allowed to take a turn.  (Now if only the characters would actually finish her off afterward, but hahaha who am I kidding, all villains have a get-out-of-jail free card.)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #728 on: June 29, 2017, 04:04:52 AM »
FE Echoes - Final dungeon. Annnnd suddenly this game's plot is making me want to bash my head against a wall. Oh well.

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LordDirtyBrit

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #729 on: June 29, 2017, 09:28:41 AM »
Do all Fire Emblem plots make you want to do this or is this one particularly bad? I'm going to give the series a try with Awakening soon so I'm a bit worried if the answer turns out to be the former.

Meeplelard

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #730 on: June 29, 2017, 12:46:09 PM »
Fire Emblem plot usually falls into the benignly generic category.  There's an evil guy who wants to do evil things using some sort of Super God Thingy, and of course he is some sort of political leader and thus has an army, so your hero has to get together his own army to stop him.

What changes often is the "why" and what not.   It's basically sRPG plot Mad-libs, so generally nothing stellar, but ultimately harmless too.

The Tellius games tend to be an exception, in that they actually try and in some cases actually succeed (particularly Radiant Dawn), since they do stuff like world building not seen in the other games, and the explanations and motives are well established and make sense.

Awakening's plot is also different because it's essentially Fire Emblem's attempt at Terminator-style with the "messenger from the apocalyptic future" storyline.  It gets flack for this, but honestly it really comes off as just FE Hipsters hating on Awakening since it's the game that made Fire Emblem "mainstream" and god forbid it actually tried to be a little creative with it's story, but that's just my limited experience with the plot hate.  It's worth noting a common retort to this is "uh, Fire Emblem games have never had good plot", to which often the response is "STILL MEANS THE PLOT IS BAD!" which misses the point since they were trying to say "Why does this matter relatively to other Fire Emblem games" which is what the whole discussion is about to begin with.


All the other games, the stories generally are just what I said.  It's a pity in Fate's case because it has 3 stories and none of them are very interesting, and Snowfire can give you a far better detailed description of "Azura, MASTER STRATEGIST!" than I ever could.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #731 on: June 29, 2017, 01:04:41 PM »
I'm assuming Elf refers either to stuff with Rudolf or stuff with Celica, both of which are bad and should feel bad (although only one I commented on in my own report.)
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Tide

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #732 on: June 29, 2017, 02:02:39 PM »
Quote
* https://goo.gl/photos/HiWt8SnAF5jVWxZm9   Random & Sopko already admired this in chat.  Note the Delay values.  Considering who's watching in-game, I decided to not hold back and do my best.  That poor boss wondering when she'll be allowed to take a turn.

Only 111 Delay? Son, I am disappoint
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LordDirtyBrit

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #733 on: June 29, 2017, 06:05:39 PM »
Awakening's plot is also different because it's essentially Fire Emblem's attempt at Terminator-style with the "messenger from the apocalyptic future" storyline.  It gets flack for this, but honestly it really comes off as just FE Hipsters hating on Awakening since it's the game that made Fire Emblem "mainstream" and god forbid it actually tried to be a little creative with it's story, but that's just my limited experience with the plot hate.  It's worth noting a common retort to this is "uh, Fire Emblem games have never had good plot", to which often the response is "STILL MEANS THE PLOT IS BAD!" which misses the point since they were trying to say "Why does this matter relatively to other Fire Emblem games" which is what the whole discussion is about to begin with.

From what I've noticed; another reason why FE Hipsters don't like Awakening is because of how it got the 'waifu' crowd into the series. I'm guessing more of the 'anime girls' were featured during marketing? Either way, I'm pretty sure this demographic is the minority and a good chunk of Awakening's fanbase enjoy the game for what it is.

Also; if Awakening's plot is similar to the Terminator, I'm all for it. Even if the writing isn't too great, at least it will be fun.

SnowFire

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #734 on: June 29, 2017, 06:28:59 PM »
LordDirtyBrit: FE plot is fine.  And Awakening is a fantastic entry point for the series.  (Path of Radiance is good too, but that requires a GameCube and isn't portable and is a little difficult to find, and lacks some modern QoL features.)  I like the older art style for Fire Emblem more than the modern "Waifuy" version too, but Awakening's art is still for the most part pretty good.

At its best, Fire Emblem plot tends to be "here are some awesome characters, and there's some sort of serious threat they need to work against so there's something to do, but really you're here just to watch the characters go."  Good-guy driven rather than villain plot driven, IOW.  The plot to Awakening is sometimes a bit dopey, but I love all the PCs and watching them bounce off each other, so whatever.

Slightly longer version: if there's a good theme that makes sense and works well with the characters, any low-level battle-to-battle plot concerns are just harmless nitpicks.  If there's a massive disconnect between the stated theme and what seems to be going on, even fun low-level excuses for battles can turn sour, and nitpicks on setup can turn into "this is all so stupid."

If you want an internally consistent explanation of how exactly the Yllsiean-Plegian war or Valm invasion go in Awakening, don't get your hopes up.  If you want a showdown between three leaders over sins in the past and how to rule  (Act 1) or a melodramatic clash between a strategist and their dark mirror over destiny & friendship (Act 3) with a cast of zany and awesome characters, Awakening is great.  (Awakening Act 2 is the weak act, but it's not offensive or anything, just filler-ish.)

Since Meeple brought up MASTER TACTICIAN AZURA, FE Fates is cool from a gameplay perspective, but it has some narrative slants seriously at cross purposes with what seems to be going on in-game, and its mission-to-mission excuses for what is going on at any one point are even worse than Awakening's.  Things just happen, and then people live or die because the plot says so.  On the bright side, the core melodrama of family vs. family shines through, along with having the PC cast of one story be the antagonists of the other story, which is always good for having memorable and somewhat sympathetic opponents.  Just the overarching plot varies between stupid and offensive in Conquest, which is a fair sight worse than most any other FE.  (Birthright is at least generic, which is actually preferred if you're me.)

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #735 on: June 29, 2017, 06:33:35 PM »
I generally prefer narratives to be ambitious even if they fail at it. Lack of ambitious storytelling has largely disengaged me from modern RPGs.
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LordDirtyBrit

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #736 on: June 29, 2017, 07:16:05 PM »
LordDirtyBrit: FE plot is fine.  And Awakening is a fantastic entry point for the series.  (Path of Radiance is good too, but that requires a GameCube and isn't portable and is a little difficult to find, and lacks some modern QoL features.)  I like the older art style for Fire Emblem more than the modern "Waifuy" version too, but Awakening's art is still for the most part pretty good.

I appreciate your concern, but I have Path of Radiance covered for when I want to play it.
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Fenrir

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #737 on: June 29, 2017, 07:35:37 PM »
There's nothing as bad as using hipster as an insult, except maybe liking FE Awakening

For real I went back to it for 1 hour and was appaled. Pair Up is handled so terribly that this has to be the worst FE mechanically. People dont even like playing it on Reverse Lunatic + 365/2 days mode, it is purely meant as EZ mode demolish things with your powerful units and enjoy the waifus. The only thing it has is content and bloat

As a FE hipster I'm way way more interested in Fates because it fixed Pair Up (but I still won't play it because it's too gross and digusting in a bad way)


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LordDirtyBrit

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #738 on: June 29, 2017, 09:35:10 PM »
There's nothing as bad as using hipster as an insult, except maybe liking FE Awakening

For real I went back to it for 1 hour and was appaled. Pair Up is handled so terribly that this has to be the worst FE mechanically. People dont even like playing it on Reverse Lunatic + 365/2 days mode, it is purely meant as EZ mode demolish things with your powerful units and enjoy the waifus. The only thing it has is content and bloat

As a FE hipster I'm way way more interested in Fates because it fixed Pair Up (but I still won't play it because it's too gross and digusting in a bad way)

Welp, can't say I have enough knowledge on the series to provide a convincing argument. I'll still give Awakening a try based on its own merits.

SnowFire

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #739 on: June 29, 2017, 11:14:14 PM »
Fenrir has Fenrir tastes.  Similar to RoboCop, they are half good, half bad, all Fenrir.

Awakening Pair-Up is just a straight buff 95% of the time, but the game is basically balanced around being in a Pair-Up constantly, so your strategic decision is around what kind of pair-ups make strategic sense + who you want to hook up in your own personal anime matchmaker game.  (The other 5% of the time are healers, dancers, and certain rare missions where you need the absolute maximum offensive actions, so you have solo characters.)  Example: Vaike is strong & slow, Lon'qu is weak & fast.  Pair'em up and you have a unit that is either extremely strong with good speed or a speedy unit with good strength, and can freely switch between them by altering who's in the front of the pair-up.  (While, say, Vaike & Miriel not so synergistic, an axe-dude with a magic boost or a mage with a Strength boost.)  Anyway, I like Awakening Pair-Up just fine.  There *is* a mechanic in Awakening that is somewhat challenge-killing if abused too much, but it's different and only shows up halfway through the game.  (Tharja with Nosferatu soloing the game.  Maybe optimized kids if you grind them up as well.) 

Something that I in particular like about Pair-Up: a problem some earlier FEs have is dragging too many units around with you.  Too much ordering the backline units to march & keep-up with the frontline.  Flip side, in an ensemble cast game like FE, you want to let more of the cast shine and not have hordes of units you meet then immediately kick into the convoy.  Pair-Up allows you to deploy 15 units but have the gameplay act more like moving around 8-9 units (7 pair-ups & 1 healer, say).  You get to see a bunch of characters in action, but you're not getting bogged down in managing a big mob o' units.

--
Incidentally, I agree with Ciato about appreciating ambition in stories, even if they occasionally fail.  Part of the reason I'm one of the resident Xenosaga defenders around here!  I was recently recommending FF13 to Sopko as well on the theory that even if it's a trainwreck, it's at least an interesting trainwreck.  Conquest plot had to go to special lengths to manage to fly beneath the less ambitious Birthright plot in my esteem.  Alas.  (Also, I can't comment TOO much on FF15 plot, but some seriously dropped balls in the early game excuse for a plot.  Starts off as pimp-my-ride + get married, which I eventually "got" and was cool with, and then it becomes...  find the 12 legendary weapons?  zzzz.  I'm sure it gets ambitious again later, but this was not particularly inspiring for a midgame idea.)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 11:20:26 PM by SnowFire »

Meeplelard

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #740 on: June 30, 2017, 12:18:39 AM »
Actually, FF15's "Legendary Weapon" plot is a subplot that only comes up once in a while when it's appropriate.  It seems like it's pulling Zelda's Axiom, but then you realize half of those legendary weapons are completely optional (you get an achievement for finding them all!) and 2 of them are gotten in major plot events that AREN'T derailing the main story.  Thinking on it, another weapon is also gotten just kind of the way to Titan, like you walk by and go "oh hey, look! One of the Royal Arms happens to be right there!  That's a narrative convenience!"  So they're not randomly stalling the plot to say "we need to explore this temple to retrieve this weapon!"

No, FF15's plot goes off the rails in Chapter 14.  While Chapter 9 through 13 feel kind of rushed, you can still follow what's going on, just feels like there are gaps (which Gladio's side of Chapter 13 does address some of it at least), then Chapter 14 kicks in and it's basically "Are we...playing the same game?"  As I've said in chat, Chapter 14 is clearly all the remnants of v13 coming in and thus it's all Nomura nonsense that Tabata felt obligated to keep in but couldn't find a way to fit in, so fuck it, APPLY JACK HAMMER NOW!   It really does feel like "This is the zombie of v13" in many ways, as opposed to the first 13 chapters which are "look, we reused the assets and characters from v13, but this is a different game entirely" (which Tabata was pretty upfront about.  He kept saying "Don't expect v13, that game is long gone!")

But yeah, the game does fool you into thinking it's going to be a treasure hunt story for a while, when it lasts maybe 2 to 3 dungeons worth of content, then goes back to actual story.
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SnowFire

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #741 on: June 30, 2017, 12:36:40 AM »
That is good to hear that the game quickly moves on from the treasure hunt, because it sure does act like that's the main questy thing to do for a bit.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #742 on: June 30, 2017, 12:55:14 AM »
I kinda feel the opposite about pair up, 7 units is too few for Fire Emblem and low-skillset SRPGs of its ilk. I generally use it less than I "should" because it's not a very fun option.


I'll want more distance before I say this for sure but I feel like Echoes may have the worst plot of any FE game that reached a threshold of making me care. So... to be clear, I still like it better on thie front than FE11/12 because FE11/12 totally failed to engage me with their characters (I'm definitely with Snowfire that where this series succeeds on writing it's by having decent characters). Echoes deserves some credit for making me care about some of its cast, buuut as per CK's comments part of me now wishes I hadn't because of the lategame disappointment. I'm relatively more okay with Awakening and Fates writing than a lot of people (though both have their problems and are clear steps back from Tellius overall) but this effort is clearly worse to me in a few ways.

Quote
As a FE hipster I'm way way more interested in Fates because it fixed Pair Up (but I still won't play it because it's too gross and digusting in a bad way)

Hahaha don't be fooled by the character designs, Echoes is significantly more gross, which is certainly a big reason (though not the only one) I feel the way I do about the game's plot. Maybe I'll get into that when I'm done.

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LordDirtyBrit

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #743 on: June 30, 2017, 01:53:03 AM »
Incidentally, I agree with Ciato about appreciating ambition in stories, even if they occasionally fail.  Part of the reason I'm one of the resident Xenosaga defenders around here! 

I can kind of relate with Metal Gear Solid 2. Quite a few people have problems with how insane the plot gets towards the end and I can understand why, but I admire how Kojima managed to both provide a warning about the digital age and how you can use it to your advantage to create a legacy. It's not a subtle execution sure, but it struck quite a chord with me.

Of course, I was meant to discuss the games I was playing in this forum, not act like a confused puppy with Fire Emblem <_<

Mega Man 4-6: I've been on a bit of a Mega Man kick lately, if only to experience several of these games for the first time. I was meant to cover MM4 a while back. Having beaten 6 recently, I thought it was a good opportunity to discuss all three. None of the three manage to meet the standards set by MM2 and MM3, both of which are among my favourite games of all time. MM4 suffers from cheap level design and several of the stages dragging on for longer than they needed to (Ring Man says hi). Though it did introduce the ability to charge your shots, so that's something I guess. MM5 fared better thanks to its superior level designs, though the robot master weapons are quite mediocre in this game (though you could claim that it promotes more strategy with the Mega Buster) and some of the bosses can be outright chores if you didn't go out of your way to get Beat. MM6 is quite possible the easiest game in the series thanks to its predictable bosses and the overpowered Rush Jet Adapter which can allow the player to skip large chunks of gameplay. In a series known for its high difficult, being on the easy end isn't much of an accomplishment.

Not sure what MM7 is going to be like. I haven't heard a clear consensus on the game.

Pokemon Black 2: Managed to beat this one during the last two weeks. This game is basically what game journalists hype GSC out to be. The game expands upon the world Black and White created before the postgame, the villains actually have some form of screen presence unlike GSC Team Rocket and flaws with the originals have been fixed such as the high encounter rate and the Pokemon selection being limited to species from generation 5. One issue I do have with the game though is that the endgame drags. The Plasma Frigate trips are a suitable climax, but Route 23 and especially Victory Road drag out for way too long. I'm beginning to see why the developers made Sun and Moon's Mt Lanakila as short as it was considering how it was placed after the long Vast Poni Canyon. Despite the long endgame though, I definitely say Black 2 and White 2 are among the series' strongest titles to this day.

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Meeplelard

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #744 on: June 30, 2017, 01:58:58 AM »
That is good to hear that the game quickly moves on from the treasure hunt, because it sure does act like that's the main questy thing to do for a bit.

Oh, I completely understand where you're coming from, trust me.  It's worth noting that when I got to Chapter 9, and the game is all "ok, open world stuff ends here, TIME FOR PLOT!" I was like "But...I only have 4 weapons...are they just going to rapid fire the other ones out giving me no chance to really test them?"  Turns out...no; the Royal Arms are rewards for exploration, for the most part, and only a handful are given to you in the main game.  The game is also nice enough to assume you didn't find all the optional ones and thus never requires you to use them, so yeah, it's definitely "rewards for finding" and not "punishes for missing."  Don't think it changes the plot at all either, outside of maybe some visual cues like a scene may show Noctis with all his Royal Armos found in Arminger mode, but that's hardly important.


Regarding Pair Up...
I think Pair Ups biggest flaw in FE13 was mostly that the game didn't give enough good reasons to NOT Pair Up, so you defaulted to that.  Rarely did I feel punished for using lesser strong units.  The concept was fine, but definitely needed fine tuning, and I think that's definitely something Fates handled better, as I did legitimately have to consider the pros and cons of pair up there.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

MasterLemon

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #745 on: June 30, 2017, 11:14:07 AM »
Pokemon Black 2: Beaten Iris. Yeah this game is still really good. One of my favourites in the series. It has a good selection and an interesting world to explore. There were three main issues which I had when going through the game. Those were the sewer area, no one likes sewers, the rather easy boss fights, and the rather long late-game. There are two visit to the Plasma Frigate, thankfully the visits to them are fun, and the rather lengthy Route 23 and Victory Road. Granted the Victory Road here is better than the one in DPP, but it definitely overstays its welcome.

Final team:


Jagens:


Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia: I'm at Castle Dracula and I've just beaten Blackmore. I didn't enjoy Blackmore all that much. His attacks are too fast and can easily wipe half of your health in one blow. You need to have fast reflexes in order to become savvy to his attacks and finally beat him. Other than that boss though, I'm really enjoying the challenge which is added to these fights; particularly when fighting two of the plot-important characters. Exploring the castle is also really fun, the area awards you for exploring detours and overcoming some the trickier parts, the regular opponents put up a good fight and that Wallman boss is a real treat. The method of defeating the boss is so unorthodox that it's rather charming, and I like the Glyph which you get afterwards. Walking through walls whilst still having control when within them is very satisfying, especially if you decide to backtrack to the Tymeo Mountains, or at least I think that was the area which I was thinking about. It goes to show that the castle compliments the earlier hallway-like areas rather nicely. I think I can safely say that I prefer this method of going through walls than that mist ability in SotN. Speaking of the earlier areas though, this game also reminds me of Metroid Fusion in a way. Both of them sometimes get heat for being "too linear", even though they're clearly going for an action-orientated approach; which they both do effectively for my money. I think I haven't done this game justice and I should probably have saved this arse kissing until I actually beat the game. Then again, maybe I'll find more drawbacks by that time.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 04:12:51 PM by MasterLemon »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #746 on: July 01, 2017, 11:43:06 PM »
Fire Emblem Echoes - Complete. 41 hours, which is higher than the average for a FE game, but I had very few true resets because of the turnwheel. Final battle spoiler notes: I didn't figure out how to kill Jedah, though this didn't ultimately matter. The final boss's mechanic of "regen 5 until his HP is below a certain threshold, then regen 40" was really weird though; I kinda had to hope for a crit to push past the last little bit. Enjoyable enough final fight anyway.


~Gameplay~

Gaiden has a reputation of being the weird/different early FE, and Echoes decided it wanted to be a reasonbly faithful remake, with modern polish. Some of Echoes weirder ideas work quite well, some not as much.

The good:
-Bows have extremely good range instead of being shitty javelins! This gives archers a niche. Archers still generally have worse stats than your other units, but unlike the Wils and Rolfs of the series, this is actually justified.
-Magic and skills costing HP is an interesting design choice and I'd say I like it overall. Mages are quite strong generally but needing to hurt themselves to do damage is certainly limiting.
-I like that supports build if you're within 2 squares instead of forcing adjacency like most (non-Tellius) games in the series.
-Ninja reinforcements are still gone. In fact, reinforcements in general are gone outside of summons (which you can deal with my killing the summoner). I can't say I miss them!

The bad:
-The game is weirdly light on documentation for FE at times; it feels unpolished. Hit, Avoid, Crit, and Dodge are not shown on the status screen. Evolving weapons using forging tells you nothing and seems to just encourage FAQ use.
-Dungeons are bad. I find how many JRPGs handle on-map randoms kinda obnoxious at the best of times (punishing me with an enemy ambush if I try to avoid them and fail = bleh). It's worse in a game like this when randoms take a while since it's a SRPG. Said randoms are also generally very dull since they're procedurally generated on uninteresting maps.
-On-map randoms are weird and potentially unfair for reasons Snowfire outlined a while back. As a more neutral point, the way they spawn with time can definitely discourage backtracking, though that's not necessarily a bad thing (unless you're an Atlas fan).
-Map design is definitely a mixed bag. Some maps have spread out pockets of individual enemies which are just "why". But there are some reasonbly cool moments where you need to press into a fortress or something and the game makes you feel like you are working for it. Special shout-out to that lategame Celica map with the mage who could cast Upheavel and his crazily well-defended fortress; I generally found Celica's maps relatively easy but that one was good.
-Witches, the RNG enemy, are kinda dumb. If they teleport and OHKO someone with a crit, tough luck kid. But usually they do something useless! There's nothing especially fun about this design.

The... I dunno:
-Mila's turnwheel. It's a neat option! I like being able to take back misclicks. But part of me wonders that it encourages extreme laziness and removes tension. I'll never dock the game points for it since it's optional, and I did end up using it, but I wonder if it would have helped or hurt the game if I'd chosen to never use it, like I was kinda intending originally. I feel like the game has enough clunky moments that I enjoyed THIS game more because of it, but it would have made a game with tighter design less enjoyable for me? Dunno.


~Writing~

Let's start with the positive. The game has quite crisp dialog which makes some of the characters more fun. Alm and Celica are generally rather generic but they're pretty enjoyable; not great characters or anything but they're functional. Alm is kinda like PoR Ike but with a better sense of humour and lacking Ike's weird self-righteousness about racism. Like Ike the game tries to sell him as a commoner but LOL, more on that later. Celica's passion for saving people is engaging. Mae and Boey have great interactions with Celica and with each other. There are many things wrong with the later stages of Celica's route but Mae/Boey getting steadily less screentime is certainly part of it.


But yeah, overall, there's a lot more negative to say. Spoilers from here on, I ain't using tiny text so feel free just to ignore most of this if you're the sensitive type.

-Celica's self-sacrifice. This COULD have worked. As CK said, if they'd tried to sell me on Celica losing faith in humanity and thus sacrificing herself was the only way to save them, okay, maybe. But they don't do this at all. Instead, Celica does nothing but ignore her friends and her brother (who ends up bizarrely irrelevant in the plot) and decide that trusting super-evil Jedah is a sensible plan. This is an incredible, stupid mistake that pretty much dominates the entire Chapter 4-5 plot for Celica. Celica is often compared to Eirika. Eirika, of course, has a pretty big stupid mistake of her own. The difference is that (a) it's a spur of the moment thing, not drawn out over a quarter of the game as every other character tells her not to do it, (b) Lyon is someone that Eirika would logically trust, Jedah is not. Fuck this plot point.

-Damsels, damsels everywhere. With Celica joining in on this late, we have the following list of female PCs who need to be rescued at some point: Silque, Clair, Mathilda, Est, Delthea, Tatiana, Celica. Here's the list of female PCs not on the above list: Faye, Mae, Genny, Palla, Catria, Sonya. For those of you who can't be bothered to count, the first list is longer than second. What the actual fuck.

-Rudolf's plan is horrendously batshit and makes no sense, and killed thousands of people for no damn reason (and the game sees no problem with this). It's pretty much Conquest's worst plot point recycled. At least he's an antagonist I guess.

-Berkut. Oh, Berkut. This character went on an... interesting trajectory. Early on, I didn't like him, because he came off as maddeningly incompetent. The game hypes up this big Rigelian general and what does he do? Alm and his little ragtag band of rebels kick him out of the country almost as soon as he exists.

But midgame I started to come around on him more. See, there's this scene where Rudolf torments him and baits him and oooh, I get it! Rudolf is intentionally setting Berkua up to fail in order to manipulate him! Berkut is gonna be like Ramsus, neat. He's been built up to have everything cut up from under him and do something crazy that serves Rudolf and/or Nuibaba/the Duma Faithful in general. I wonder what Rudolf's plan is!

Lategame, LOL NOPE. Rudolf actually loved his nephew, really! He just treated him like total shit, driving him insane. (Don't try to tell me he couldn't have prepared Berkut for Alm to become leader. He told Zeke who he'd know for like a year at most. Literally ANYTHING would have been kinder than what he did.) The game does not acknowledge this, since Rudolf at this point is a cool dude (fuck Rudolf). Berkut then decides to sacrifice his wife for power. How does he do this? Rinea clearly doesn't want it to happen; I guess his wife is his possession or something. After this very gross scene, you kill him and he ascends to heaven with his wife who still loves him even though he pretty much just mindraped + murdered her. This may be the single worst scene in all of Fire Emblem.

-The main villain cares about nothing but reviving a dark god just like most other FEs, and this is as boring as ever. Still better than Rudolf or Berkut.

-Alm being secretly Rudolf's heir utterly pisses on the "hey commoners can be pretty cool too" theme the game had going early on. The game's other theme is "humans shouldn't be reliant on gods" which mostly just manifests in Celica being dumb and Alm being great. FE is often pretty shitty about communicating its themes effectively but this one does a worse job than most.


~Aesthetics~

The game's art is pretty! I knew early on that I was enjoying this game notably more than Shadow Dragon/New Mystery and I definitely think the incredibly superior art is a big part; it's my favourite since RD. Celica looks so freaking cool. I just wish the Duma Faithful didn't look so comically evil with their blue skin.

Music is nice enough, though few tracks really stick with me. The most noteworthy one is certainly Mila's Divine Protection, especially this version with the strings; it plays for a lot of the game and I was still disappointed when it finally got replaced. It's not as good as Awakening/Fates for music but solid enough and certainly better than any other previous FE's soundtrack to me.


Overall, hmm. The game is better than the previous remakes at... most things. On balance I think I like it more than Binding Blade, too; Binding Blade has enough clunky things of its own, and ninja reinforcements suck. But I'm not seeing much to recommend it above any of the non-remakes from FE7 onwards. 7/10, but low.


Unit notes! Starred folks were used in the final dungeons, kills in parentheses. Since you have to use everyone until the final dungeons, some characters I didn't find as useful still managed to get lots of kills overall.

*Tatiana (5) - Fortify is god. MVP of the lategame just for that, it breaks the game's action economy in half.
Zeke (5) - Had notably worse stats than my main paladins, but still functional enough.
*Mycen (7) - More a less was a coinflip between him and Zeke for a final dungeon spot. Mycen was slower but tankier, and I figured having SOMEONE with over 15 defence would be a good idea. He's basically a Baron with 5 more move.
Atlas (7) - Archer. Total trash unless you take a major detour to promote him ASAP. I waited until after Grieth due to not wanting to do that and he never caught up.
Valbar (10) - Generals are pretty bad in this game without pair up/etc, to get them places, plus so many actually dangerous enemies being magical. He tanked Grieth though, and that was cool.
Lukas (11) - Mine struggled to gain any stats at all and was utter garbage.
Clive (14) - Awful res and mediocre speed made him generally worse than other paladins, but he's still a tier 2 unit really early so he saw good use for a while, even if I knew he wasn't headed to the final team.
*Silque (17) - Doesn't get nearly as good a skillset as the other clerics. No ranged healing, Invoke super-late, etc. Warp has occasional use at least, and clerics are nice to have in general early.
*Genny (18) - Quietly kinda amazing. Invoke! Physic! Certainly part of why Celica's maps are easier.
Forsyth (19) - Is a knight, so kinda bad.
*Conrad (28) - Paladin with nice res. He was functional, I don't have much to say about him.
Luthier (32) - And here's our first mage. Mages are pretty excellent because they excel at killing hard-to-kill foes, either because they have high defence or camp on terrain that gives huge avoid boosts (which they ignore). Luthier's stats aren't too great, but Excalibur is a good spell. Really came into his own when I gave him a Speed Ring, allowing him to double Excalibur and thus murder most things he looked at.
Gray (39) - Archer. He just didn't get enough speed to be useful at the archer job. Apparently there's some obscure bow that gives them a double-hit skill but without it, an archer who can't double much just isn't very useful, and of course his own durability was wretched.
Palla (41) - Probably the worst of the Whitewings due to her relatively low speed, but still decent.
*Python (42) - Turned out somewhat better than Grey since he actually did get speed. Archers are interesting in this game. Not great, but interesting
Tobin (43) - Mage. Tobin, like Luthier, didn't really have great stats, but having a mage was really nice early; he fell off once I got Delthea but stayed useful even then because he gets Physic!
*Mathilda (45) - Just had great stats all-around, in a great class. Really solid.
*Est (47) - She starts underlevelled (though not as much as usual for her) but had the best stats of the Whitewings once she got going. Neat, they actually balanced her!
*Sonya (51) - Mage with Excalibur and good stats. Yeah, she's pretty badass despite joining underlevelled. Split-path with another PC, not sure how good he is.
*Delthea (52) - Mage with a bunch of good spells like Seraphim and Ragnarok, and great stats. Underlevelled but started being awesome even before she caught up. Her biggest problem is that she lacks a 3-range spell... but if you give her the Mage Ring (which is silly OP, +2 spell range), that problem goes away!
*Saber (55) - He was so-so at first, basically having speed but nothing else, but gets better as time goes on. Dread Fighter, despite a derpy aesthetic and a bad name, is actually quite a good class, with surprisingly high movement and massive magical tanking. Great against mages and fast enemies (unless they were so fast he couldn't double them, which definitely happened sometimes).
*Catria (57) - Pegasus knight. Not much to say, she's solid. +10 damage vs monsters and javelin access is good times.
*Boey (60) - Kinda tanky but not really, the low speed ruins that. Male mage stats < female mage stats generally. That said, he still dealt out good damage with Excalibur/Saggitae and anything slow enough that he DID double them had a very bad time.
*Kliff (64) - Cavalier. Kliff just had generically solid stats in a high-move class, pretty similar to Mathilda though not quite as fast or high-res.
*Kamui (67) - I think I took him into a big dungeon where I didn't take Saber because he needed to promote and Saber didn't, only reason I can explain the kill difference. Kamui was a lot like Saber, though low res was a liability before tier 3 (and even somewhat after) as was low luck. Still had the same perks as Saber otherwise.
*Celica (76) - Mage with solid stats across the board, can hit defence and use swords if you want. I gave her Beloved Zofia and the payoff is neat as its final skill could OHKO many enemies, including Mogalls. Her main problem was only having 4 move (a problem most mages share sadly).
*Mae (86) - My Mae got speed-blessed and was some unholy killing machine with great attack/speed. Durability's not so hot but whatever. It's also funny how this game only has one attack stat, as later on she can use swords and does stupid damage with them despite never having trained with them before.
*Clair (87) - Falconknight. Not so hot defence but incredible speed and good attack (the latter apparently isn't normal). I like Clair pretty well so I'm not gonna complain.
*Faye (87) - Pegasus knight. Apparently she's OP as a cleric, as a pegknight she was merely good. Better def than Clair but worse speed/res, so not as good overall, but she should have better attack normally.
*Alm (99) - Alm is terrific early (one of the few lords who STARTS as one of the best PCs), with incredible base HP, decent stats otherwise, and the Levin Sword which is amazing. Then the Levin Sword falls off and everyone else promotes and he doesn't, so he starts to fade. Then he finally promotes and also gains Double Lion, a silly strong tech (2 hits, damage/hit boost) which can OHKO frailer enemies before they counter. He's very good. Mine was 1-2 points down on def which did make the lategame solo section with him relatively tricky, but I still beat it on the second try.

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Maybe.

SnowFire

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #747 on: July 02, 2017, 03:49:30 AM »
Always interesting to hear other's plot thoughts on Echoes.  For my own spin on some of those issues....

Re gameplay:
* In general, I didn't fear dungeon ambushes very much; dungeon enemies almost never were able to get into range for a turn 0 attack, unlike some map enemies.  So I did a fair amount of running past 'em if I didn't want to grind, which I personally didn't find THAT hard.

Re plot:
* Celica's self-sacrifice: Yeah, I can't blame you much for hating on this, although I personally find it easy to ignore, or at least that the writers gave players an excuse to rationalize it away.  Which is not to say that they shouldn't have been more explicit, but!  My understanding is that in Gaiden, Celica really does just agree to Jedah's plan, because.  The changes in Echoes were to make Jedah teleport everyone else away first and act more like he was just plain kidnapping her, no choice in the matter.  Now, if Celica was just "playing along" with Jedah's offer and planning on just killing him, she should have said so!  But the changes suggest they were trying to move away from Celica agreeing, and instead leaving it kind of indeterminate what Celica would have done had it been up to her.  Why this requires indecisiveness I'm not sure, but that's how it is.  Anyway, I appreciate the plot change and choose to believe Celica was not really going along with the plan, which is still not great, but less bad.

Of course, this also ties into JEDAH plot, where they kinda dropped the ball a bit?  They opted for more generic baby-eating villain, but they were kinda close to a "reverse Celica."  Celica believes that everything will be fixed if Mila comes back.  If Jedah was more clear about "Look Lord Duma is feeling ill right now, but he'll be totally fine if we sacrifice 345656 maidens + a Brand-wielder to him, trust me I know dragon medicine, and really what cost wouldn't you be willing to pay to fix up our guardian god?," he'd have been an excellent mirror of Celica - bring DUMA back and everything will be fine.  Problem is, he also rants about creating an age of chaos, and his attempts to sell Celica on his plan are more "hey I'll maybe beat up Alm" rather than "don't you want the gods back on their rightful thrones, guiding Valentia?"

* Yeah, Rudolf the narrative slant is just horribly, horribly wrong on.  I'd still have disliked it had they portrayed him as someone who was Doing The Right Thing In The Wrong Way (how is this close to the right thing?!), but no, the game clearly thinks he's a cool dude by the end.  Wat.

* I agree with a lot of what you said about Berkut, but still think he's fine?  I didn't think Rudolf had some MASTER PLAN and was just being a terrible uncle, but yeah, tied into more Rudolf being terrible (which is FINE if the narrative acknowledged it).  Anyway, he's a solid dark mirror of Alm IMO, has the same plot in reverse where he goes from being the acknowledged heir to a nobody.  And...  sure, it's bad that he sacrifices his wife to Duma.  Made me definitely hyped up to kill him, good for a villain!  As for his deathbed repentance, I'm just cool with these in general.  (I know that super & some others will complain about, say, XS Albedo getting one of these too.)  For all that Japan isn't very Christian, it's very fitting to Christian morality that no matter how horrible your crimes are, there is still a path forward.  I'm not going to be annoyed that he isn't dragged into hell Don Giovanni style and Mila pops up to say "yes and he suffered for all eternity due to the worst moment of his life hahaha".  Ghost-Rinea forgiving him is also not terrible...?  Yeah, he killed her.  She still loves him.  That's how things go sometimes, and seems fitting enough of what character she had beforehand.  Basically, I am only very rarely going to complain about someone getting too nice an afterlife or somesuch.   I don't particularly want to see tons of afterlife punishment for bad people to attempt so salve people's sense of justice.

* Entirely agree about Alm's heritage doing weird things to the plot's theme.  They were obviously "stuck" with keeping that plot point from Gaiden, but they certainly could have handled it better, and maybe not have had all the lines where Clair/Grey/Tobin's instinctive noble-sense can tell that there's something Vaguely Different about Alm & Celica, some special grace that separates them from You and Me.  If I'd been in charge, I'd have tried to stick Alm in awkward spots where after his heritage is revealed, you have the likes of Fernand say "oh that explains everything, I guess now we know why you're such a good commander, commoners are scum after all!"  Or otherwise give Oliver-esque incompetent allies & hangers-on to him afterward.  Obviously not much plot left after the secret comes out, but Alm should have to struggle to reassure the bros that he's the same old Alm as ever, while attempting to simultaneously assert authority by birth on restive Rigelians while not coming off as Berkut-esque conceited.

* For "humans are awesome, the time of gods have passed - " But that's the fundamental "clash" they're trying to set up between Alm & Celica.  Celica is a *priestess*.  Of course she's going to take the side of "let's just restore Mila and call it a day."  If they'd made Celica think the same way as Rudolf at the start, it'd totally kill the Alm/Celica split they were going for.  I'd rather Celica be "wrong" then have both main characters have the exact same thoughts on everything.


Also, you didn't mention this one, and it's quite a nitpick, but:
* Slayde is portrayed as a bit of a dishonorable coward by the dialogue.  This is especially true if you do the "Rise of the Deliverance" DLC missions.  They picked a strangely honorable way for him to die, though - fighting with a foreign army in a war that wasn't his own anymore, and fighting to the bitter end, at that.  This isn't new, but he seems like a solid candidate for the "villain survivor" position that FF7 Elena / BoF4 Yuna / etc. have where he just gets a scene in the end where he's leading his own bandit gang from the hills and extorting peasants.  Alternatively, have him appear in the battle, and as soon as a single Rigelian soldier falls, he just runs away, and it's a challenge to cut off his retreat if you actually want to kill him before he escapes with the fancy stat-boost item he's carrying.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 04:07:00 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #748 on: July 02, 2017, 05:24:33 AM »
Yeah I can agree with a lot of your thoughts. Some replies:

I don't need to see Berkut dragged down into hell or anything, but what he did was REALLY squicky. Like, straight-up, it was kinda the game's most horrifying moment. That's okay! As you said, gets you hyped to kill that villain. You want to make him unredeemable and force even super-forgiving Alm to accept that this guy has to die? That's a way to do it. But... redeeming him about 5 minutes later reaaally rubs me the wrong way. To me it suggests the writers don't GET how gross what he did was. It's like, no, Rinea really is just his accessory/possession who loves him unconditionally so of course he's free to sacrifice her for power if he needs to, she was happy about it anyway! No. Ew.

A bit of a contrast here is a character he reminds me of a bit: Orson. Seriously messed up guy. Has some understandable reasons for being that way, but still. Does something basically unforgivable. In Sacred Stones, though, the writers own that plot point. Orson is horrible, he doesn't get a deathbed redemption. Nor is he dragged down to hell. He just dies (y'know, like almost every other FE villain does!), and we're left to marvel about what a messed-up person he was in a scene where Eirika and Ephraim discover his "wife". It works! And it shows the writers knew what they were doing with the character and succeeded at it. Needless to say I don't feel the same about Berkut.

Yeah, the fact that Duma was once something far better than just "demon king/evil god" means that Jedah had more potential than most Gharnef-types! I'd have loved if they'd done something with that, but he's basically just a moustache-twirler, sadly.

Fair point on Slayde. I'm legit surprised he survived as long as he did, it felt like maybe the writers forgot about him or something because his end is pointless. Your thoughts would certainly have worked better, yeah.

Talking of Slayde reminds me of his Act 1 battle appearance, and reminds me I forgot to rant about just how incredibly awkward and poorly paced the Zofia Castle battle is. You have great general Berkut, who doesn't even take to the field (or provide any strategy) and runs away as soon as the battle turns. You have Desaix who has some sweet plot armour of near-invincibility... who also runs away. And in general the Deliverance, which was supposedly back on its heels, just seizes control of Zofia way too easily. It's a strange narrative anti-climax. I do think FE has a problem with this in general (the player wins all the fights, even ones that should logically be climactic or difficult, so "march on the capitol!" tends to be a strategy which works without much problem) but this felt like an unusually egregious case even so. I'd probably have changed things so that Alm/Clive/whoever had to come up with some clever strategy to draw Desaix's attention out of the capitol (maybe up to the border fort where you fight Desaix later?) then sneak attack Zofia Castle and maybe defeat Slayde there (he can still run, and in fact that might even be instrumental to the player's victory). Berkut doesn't even get involved until Alm's success here draws his attention. It would have both been more satisfying for the player and would have preserved the image of the baddies better.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: What Games are you Playing 2017?
« Reply #749 on: July 02, 2017, 09:57:00 PM »
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that only being able to equip one weapon + not being able to choose what you can counter with is bad. Not the end of the world but it definitely cuts into your strategic enemy phase options. I definitely hope this is a one-off and doesn't return.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.