Author Topic: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!  (Read 35257 times)

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #325 on: May 06, 2017, 04:53:21 AM »
Oh and of course, a crap ton of Odins along the way.  Everyone has that one troll summon that always shows up that you never use, and in my case, it's Odin.

Odin is like...amazing for skill inheritance though.  The only source of the blue blade tome, with blade tomes being the overall best tomes and inheritable.  One of two sources of Moonbow, which...well you can see how all my characters ended up using it for different reasons.  Bottom line is that 2 charge supers are good, and it's the more reliable 2 charge super.  Also the only source of red tomebreaker in the game.  (It's not that breaker skills are good necessarily, it's more that they trump all the other B skills, including stuff like wary fighter "can't be doubled" well apparently you can be.  Granted, red tomebreaker isn't as in-demand, cause there aren't too many red tome users).

But uhh yeah, Odin, arguably the best skill inheritance pull in the game.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #326 on: May 06, 2017, 10:53:10 PM »
Everyone has their albatross that drags them down Met.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #327 on: May 08, 2017, 01:17:52 AM »
The first few Odins you draw are great for skill inheritance but you definitely can reach a point where any more become superfluous, for him or any other unit.


Anyway I haven't really updated about my own team in ages, so here it is:

Eirika +Def -Spd
Sieglinde, Reposition, Moonbow
Triangle Adept, Swordbreaker, Hone Speed

Eirika doublebuffs which is obviously great. Since she's mainly here for utility (her nature her direct combat potential a bit though makes her harder to kill so it's okay), Triangle Adept is a great fit because it lets her completely dominate greens which are what she usually fights. Swordbreaker compensates for -Spd by letting her match up well against other sword-users unless they also run Swordbreaker.

Reposition is the best (non-heal/dance) support skill in the game IMO since it allows her to rescue units after they make killing blows which would put them in danger.

Olwen +Atk -Def, fused to +1 (bonus to HP/Atk)
Dire Thunder, Reposition, Luna
Death Blow, Lancebreaker, Spur Atk

Normal Olwen is a decent unit, but +Atk (adds 4 to the stat) makes her silly. Toss in Death Blow and she rains death down on pretty much all reds and lance-users.  Most archers and dagger-users get OHKOed too, as do some of the more common enemy blue tome users like Reinhardt and Robin. Probably the most important member of my team. She's physically fragile but isn't doubled much at least. Luna is used because she can use it turn 1 against anything she can double, or turn 2 otherwise, which is the same as Moonbow, and thus pushes her offence even further as even decent res won't save enemies then.

Spring Camilla +HP -Spd
Gronnraven+, Rally Attack, Moonbow
Triangle Adept, G Tomebreaker, Spur Speed

Raven tomes pretty much instantly mean Triangle Adept. Spring Camilla's biggest perk is her monstrous Atk; she reaces 50 with an Eirika buff which means 70 when triangle advantage is gained. This OHKOs almost all greys and blues, and in the case of greys she can do it on the enemy phase, typically while taking almost no damage (even archers have their attack lowered to 90% which is hilarious). Her speed sucks but other than against reds (who destroy her) and greens (G Tomebreaker says hi, and her lets her tank a double axe in a pinch) this matters surprisingly little.

Also can't stress enough that adding a flier to your team is a great move and I recommend it to anyone who has a good one, there are huge positioning advantages you can use on many maps.


My fourth is either vanilla Klein (he can OHKO most common greens which are what my team has the hardest time OHKOing, including Nino/Julia/all wyverns but more surprisingly Hector, who eats Glacies turn 1), or whatever bonus unit is applicable.


Anyway this team is good. I haven't seen an arena team I wasn't able to beat flawlessly; my rare deaths occur because of bad decisions on my part (so I really shouldn't do arena matches while half awake) or because I don't realise a possibility for an enemy dancer (dancers markedly improve your defence team IMO!). Depending on the fourth this team can generally handle all GHBs and other challenges that don't lock in specific other units. It performs similarly well against 10th stratum fights which I used to struggle with a lot more before I got a Raven tome user (becase overstatted archers and dagger-users can be huge pains to deal with there).
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 06:09:11 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #329 on: May 13, 2017, 11:56:32 PM »
Good stuff.

TAR Raven tome is excellent and I'm glad others have noticed how ridiculously effective they can be. I'm not sold on Robin-M unless he's +Atk (my experience with Spring Camilla is that she would miss a lot of KOs with 6 less points of attack, i.e. what Robin has) but yours is so hey. But yeah, I really can't recommend them enough for arena runs; with one of each colour and a raven tome, as you noted, you have the potential for WTA on literally everyone.

Dancers are obviously good but I will speak up for my girl Eirika here; she plays a similar role very effectively. While you lose out on the ability to have either your assassin or your raven tome nuke two people in a single player phase, Reposition can sub for many other uses of dance, and you get the perks of doublebuffing (which I find great even though my core 3 doesn't have a blade tome) and notably better combat. I'm not trying to make the argument that Eirika (and Ephraim for that matter) are better than a dancer necessarily, but they're at worst comparable and which is better depends on your team's specifics. And certainly, Olivia deserves note for (like the rest of your team) being available at 3*, not to mention the free ones you get. So the team composition is arguably utility ass raven, just with a dancer being one of the most effective choices for utility.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #330 on: May 14, 2017, 01:35:33 AM »
Dancers are obviously good but I will speak up for my girl Eirika here; she plays a similar role very effectively. While you lose out on the ability to have either your assassin or your raven tome nuke two people in a single player phase, Reposition can sub for many other uses of dance, and you get the perks of doublebuffing (which I find great even though my core 3 doesn't have a blade tome) and notably better combat.

I'm going to have to dispute the bit about noticeably better combat.

Eirika's core stats compared to Olivia are 2 less ATK, 2 more SPD, 1 less DEF, 2 more RES.

These are all fairly break-even (Attack and Speed are maybe similarly valued.  Same for Def and Res).  The place where Eirika really breaks away from Olivia is 6 more HP.  Which...6HP is...definitely nice, but doesn't dramatically change how you engage in combat.

Add to this, I find myself really wanting a Ruby Sword on my Olivia, where obviously that's not an option for Eirika (Eirika's unique weapon is what makes her a support).  You can use triangle adept instead which *checking* yep, you're actually way ahead of me and already using triangle adept, I approve! *thumbsup*.  But I feel like A skills are pretty valuable; Fury with 12 power Ruby Sword is probably better in combat than 16 power Weapon with Triangle Adept.  Distant Counter, if I ever pulled it, is also arguably better than 4 weapon attack.

This isn't to diss on Eirika at all; Eirika does fine in combat, and yes, better than Olivia.  It's more like...why is Olivia also fine in combat and only about 7 HP worse?  I remember noticing this on my first 4 star Olivia when I compared levelling her up to levelling Roy up.  Olivia felt like Roy combatwise...which isn't exactly a compliment (I hated Roy cause I levelled him without a dancer before skill inheritance with bad IVs) but Olivia actually had real upsides--dance and hone attack!  Oh my!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 01:37:52 AM by metroid composite »

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #331 on: May 14, 2017, 01:42:50 AM »
I suppose since team profiles are a thing and I've meant to do this anyway I might as well get around to it.



IVs: +Spd -Res

Catria is the dark horse of the team, rarely discussed in the arena meta and having never been featured as a banner focus hero, which is funny since I have a +4 merge on her.

When talking about blue melee units, they've traditionally been used as baits for killing red melee units. Less popular since arena matchmaking changes and skill inheritance came out, as ranged is just generally safer to use for perfect run streaks and don't come with an MMR penalty. Plus setting up offense is easier on player phase, with stuff like Darting Blow/Death Blow/Swift Sparrow only working on user initiation. So the blue melee units that do still get run are generally sturdy (Ephraim's a good poster child, but even relative unknowns like Lukas and Subaki are best in this role over more offense-oriented lance users, such as Cordelia. Or NEB's pick for severely underrated, Corrin-F.) Usually they pack Quick Riposte to emphasize their approach.

Catria is a more balanced version of Subaki, trading some defense away for an actual attack stat. Typically you don't really want to go for balance in constructing arena teams (win really hard at what you do, avoid matchups that are bad for you) but I feel like I've managed to get away with it. She may not be optimal but due to RNG dumping 5* Catrias onto my lap I've adapted to using her for the sake of ranking, and she was a personal favorite as I was leveling up early on so the preference kind of stuck.

Your A slot selection, on the other hand, gets weird with a unit that's primarily supposed to bait. You can run Triangle Adept (or a jewel weapon) to solidify WTA matchups, and this tends to be the default approach (Subaki comes with a Sapphire Lance, even). You don't really want to run stuff that only powers up on initiate. Speed+3 was my default selection at first but feels underwhelming compared to the competition. Fury is also an option but taking chip damage on every combat session on a unit that's guaranteed to get hit can also be awkward, and can put you out of your QR threshold.

However, running TA feels kind of bad on any unit that has a jewel weapon as an option, on the other hand. It's justifiable on units with unique weapons (Eirika for instance) or with raven tomes (double super WTA!) but outside of those, a jewel weapon trades 4 Mt for TA's effect. This is... probably a winning trade, with the closest comparison being vanilla 15 Mt weapon and Attack+3 in A slot (Attack+3, like Speed+3, just feels underwhelming).

I tried Iote's Shield for a while as well, but was quickly unconvinced; archers became less popular and as a flier you have the ability to pretty much pick where you want to fight, so it's really a non-factor on offense.

So in the end the Hero Fest banner came out and I yanked a Hector to feed Distant Counter, which solved my conundrum (now she can effectively bait and kill red mages, Nino's greatest threat).

The B slot also merits some discussion. Again, with the above supertank builds of Subaki and Lukas, Quick Riposte lends naturally to that sort of setup. But since Catria is more balanced, can get hit below QR's threshold (even at 3 it's only 70%, and exclusive to 5* Subaki) and I'm not actually running a jewel weapon on her, it feels like a more questionable choice. Vantage, on the other hand, is safe and useful across many situations, is relatively easily activated, and even against green units Catria is sturdy enough that she tends not to die in one hit. Comboed with Distant Counter it's even better, of course, since you can bait ranged units into dying without actually taking a hit yourself.

Hone Speed and Rally Attack exist solely to pump up Nino. The reason I picked that over Hone Attack/Rally Speed is prioritizing the flexibility to be out of position and still give Nino her most substantial attack boost over freeing up Catria to be able to attack on the same turn. She's still best at baiting (Vantage) and as a flier, the mobility gives her better rein to be where she needs to be to do that, as well as making it easy to orbit around Nino (and the rest of the team).

Luna is chosen because of the Killer Lance; while Moonbow activating at 1 can be great, it can also lead to annoying situations where you waste your proc. With Luna, bait hit -> counter will charge Luna, and because of Vantage, you can bait again for what will usually be a fatal hit. A single Moonbow counter doesn't tend to OHKO anything.

I do wonder if Killer Lance is her best weapon choice though. I've argued myself out of wanting to put a jewel weapon on her, but there is a serious case to be made that the vanilla 15 Mt Silver Lance could come out on top in some situations. I think the ability to quickly charge Luna for a decisive hit wins out, but it would depend a lot on mathing out kill thresholds for matchups.




IVs: +Spd -Res

Olivia be dance, dancing is great. Especially in arena where you want units to live, the extra insurance with mobility and potential to snowball offense is awesome.

Fury and Ruby Sword make her into a surprisingly fierce attacker, albeit one with a limited number of uses per battle - which is fine, since she should be dancing most of the time. She kills Hector for free (I still don't know why so many people run him, but as long as they do this will remain a decently valuable role), and with Swordbreaker she can tango with red sword lords that would otherwise threaten Nino. At 41 Speed she isn't exactly worried about getting doubled or getting doubles against opposing breakers as well, which is great.

The choice between Fortify Res and Fortify Def is debatable. Def comes up a lot more often overall when you look at the actual head count of units and their weapons. But in arena, I find mages to be the scariest threats, as it's hard to avoid taking hits from them at times. They can probably be interchanged without too much impact as the main goal is to provide another stat buff to feed to Nino.

She gets the Speed+1 seal because it makes more of a difference for her than Catria.




IVs: +Atk -HP

Nino does her best, and I was using her before it was cool. (Which means like a month from the game launch, when green mages were basically non-existent due to everyone running red sword lords and them being the arena bonus heroes.) Even then people were talking about her potential a couple of weeks in, due to Gronnblade's potential for some ridiculous damage figures.

Anyway she is the team assassin, and does by far the most workload. Blues are deleted in one attack, with only a tiny handful needing a buff to ensure the OHKO. With zero buffs/Spurs/whatever Nino does 66 damage in a single hit when initiating against blue, 58 on a counter. Only one particularly Res sturdy blue unit, Ninian, survives at neutral IVs (neutral 42 HP, 27 Res). Blue mages (Robin-M, Olwen, Reinhardt, Bunny Lucina, Linde) all get OHKOed, and a Hone Attack buff ensures that it stays an OHKO even if they have any shenanigans. Melee units have worse Res and usually mediocre or bad Speed (few blue lance speedsters exist compared to red and green) so they're a foregone conclusion as well.

The IV selection is a departure from the standard Nino build, which is actually +Spd/-Def or Res running Fury 3, giving her a comfortable base Spd of 42. Any team running blade tome mages will typically be running Hone Spd as well, so at 46 she doubles <= 41, which is a huge swathe of the meta. Fury also bulks her up to ward off OHKOs, which is pretty important because she sits on some dangerous thresholds (-Def gets her OHKOed by +Atk Takumi, and -Res gets her OHKOed by a Julia with 7 extra Attack, who is extremely resistant to being OHKOed herself.)

However I concluded that the speed advantage is actually better on paper than it is in practice. Let's examine this some:

- Doubling red melee lets her get the kill on a Lucina (although that's not guaranteed: +Spd Fury Lucina is 42 speed and the meta build). Ryoma (and his inferior version Ike) eviscerate her because of Distant Counter. Eldigan's slow. No other red is really relevant right now or plays support roles (Eirika/Olivia), and those often run Triangle Adept or Ruby Sword, letting them survive regardless.
- Red mages counter her, which is bad and usually fatal, so speed doesn't help there.
- Blue units, as discussed above, pretty much get OHKOed so doubling is overkill. At worst a Hone Attack buff erases any doubts.
- Green melee units are a rarity, but the ones that currently see play are Minerva, Cherche, and Hector. Life and Death 3 +Spd Minerva does clock in at 41 Spd, but she also gets OHKOed with any hone buff with my +Atk DB3 Nino. Cherche and Hector always get doubled; with Hector he counters, even, so you want to ideally kill him in one hit since he can OHKO Nino.
- Green mages are slow (Julia, Bunny Camilla, Cecilia). The exception is Nino herself (or her inferior version Soren). So your speed matters for the mirror matchup but not elsewhere.

So doubling really only comes into play against red units that don't counter/don't shrug it off from super-WTA, and the mirror. The former feels like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole; why force trying to make the disadvantageous matchup work? (The same logic applies for TA, of course; on offense better to emphasize your strengths when you can usually dictate the terms of the fight.) The latter, on the other hand, is extremely relevant: since I don't run a red mage I don't have an obvious answer to green mages, so Nino will need to be on point for them.

For the mirror, +Atk Nino starts at 49 Attack, and since the point is to OHKO, we add Death Blow (+6), Hone Attack (+8), Hone Speed (+4), Fortify Res (+4) and arrive at 71. Neutral Nino is 59 HP+Res; add a +Res nature, Fury, Fortify Res and she gets to 70, where she is still OHKOed.

In all other situations (where doubling doesn't matter) having the additional 6 Attack is helpful in a plethora of scenarios (+Res/HP natures exist, buffs exist, it can be the margin of difference for OHKOs against injured opponents, etc.)

HP+3 Sacred Seal covers all of those bad OHKO situations talked about earlier that come up from not running Fury. On the flipside the one advantage of being -HP instead of -Res is that Nino weathers the assault from Horse Emblem better, which is important because she's the only person on the team who can do anything to them.

The rest of her skillset is mostly self-explanatory:
- Moonbow remains the lowest charge special and thus the most likely to actually activate in a fight.
- Reposition is the best mobility assist. NEB has largely covered why.
- G Tomebreaker (and breaker skills in general) are like rock paper scissors with similar skills (Quick Riposte, Brash Assault, Desperation), except breaker skills win every time. You should probably run them just because you lose against someone who does otherwise for the mirror matchup. (You can't run into opposing breaker skills in WTA and you're already losing the WTD, so those don't matter.)
- Hone Attack is the best generic hone, IMO (Attack being overall the most relevant stat in a majority of situations). Plus her default, so that's nice.

Incidentally blade tomes are a little ridiculous. 13 base Mt with unique tomes at 14 with a gimmick that is far better than any of them (get 8 more Atk with minimal effort, 12-20 more depending on how crazy you want to get).
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 03:44:43 AM by Laggy »
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #332 on: May 14, 2017, 02:17:59 AM »
I'm going to have to dispute the bit about noticeably better combat.

Eirika's core stats compared to Olivia are 2 less ATK, 2 more SPD, 1 less DEF, 2 more RES.

These are all fairly break-even (Attack and Speed are maybe similarly valued.  Same for Def and Res).  The place where Eirika really breaks away from Olivia is 6 more HP.  Which...6HP is...definitely nice, but doesn't dramatically change how you engage in combat.

Add to this, I find myself really wanting a Ruby Sword on my Olivia, where obviously that's not an option for Eirika (Eirika's unique weapon is what makes her a support).  You can use triangle adept instead which *checking* yep, you're actually way ahead of me and already using triangle adept, I approve! *thumbsup*.  But I feel like A skills are pretty valuable; Fury with 12 power Ruby Sword is probably better in combat than 16 power Weapon with Triangle Adept.  Distant Counter, if I ever pulled it, is also arguably better than 4 weapon attack.

This isn't to diss on Eirika at all; Eirika does fine in combat, and yes, better than Olivia.  It's more like...why is Olivia also fine in combat and only about 7 HP worse?  I remember noticing this on my first 4 star Olivia when I compared levelling her up to levelling Roy up.  Olivia felt like Roy combatwise...which isn't exactly a compliment (I hated Roy cause I levelled him without a dancer before skill inheritance with bad IVs) but Olivia actually had real upsides--dance and hone attack!  Oh my!

Oh yeah, the gap isn't super-wide or anything and I didn't mean to imply that it was. Still, 6 HP is there (we've all won matches with because a unit was able to survive at single-digit HP), and Triangle Adept Sieglinde has the same relative Atk as Fury Ruby Sword, with the former having better durability (on characters who are rarely doubled, 6 damage per combat more than offsets the def/res boost) and the latter having +3 speed.

Distant Counter Ruby Sword is certainly neat and that would definitely be an advantage Olivia can have. I've certainly thought about who to give Distant Counter to if I ever draw Hector (I don't like Hector much so he's gonna be skill food for sure) and Eirika losing TA would be kinda problematic.

Any thoughts on who else is a good candidate for Distant Counter? And Close Counter for that matter.


Quote
She kills Hector for free (I still don't know why so many people run him, but as long as they do this will remain a decently valuable role)

While I'm with you at the "oh look a Hector, yay" reaction to arena teams, keep in mind that defence meta rewards units who are a major problem for a minority of teams, which Hector is. A team with no reds can often have serious issues with him, and you only need to draw one of those once to get your defence score. Wings of Mercy Hector can also snag some nasty surprise kills if you don't check for it and you use one of your ranged units to bait one of the enemy's, though not all Hectors I face are smart enough to have that. (A minority, I'd think.)


EDIT: On blade tomes... they're great, yeah, but I'm not quite as super-impressed as some are? (e.g. I don't really think of them as "ridiculous") Raven setups are different but certainly competitive at overall worth (as per mc's whole blog post outlines) since what they lack in raw power they can compensate for in giving you WTA over a whole new colour. And Dire Thunder/Brave weapons also essentially doubles Atk bonuses (not others granted, and not on enemy phase... but in exchange for that they're much more powerful on player phase at base, both at raw damage and charging limits faster). And then obviously there are some weapons with cool built-in abilities (a lot aren't great, but some like Distant Counter and Hone Atk 2 are). I guess my point is that there's other good stuff too!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 02:25:28 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #333 on: May 14, 2017, 02:30:14 AM »
EDIT: On blade tomes... they're great, yeah, but I'm not quite as super-impressed as some are? (e.g. I don't really think of them as "ridiculous") Raven setups are different but certainly competitive at overall worth (as per mc's whole blog post outlines) since what they lack in raw power they can compensate for in giving you WTA over a whole new colour. And Dire Thunder/Brave weapons also essentially doubles Atk bonuses (not others granted, and not on enemy phase... but in exchange for that they're much more powerful on player phase at base, both at raw damage and charging limits faster). And then obviously there are some weapons with cool built-in abilities (a lot aren't great, but some like Distant Counter and Hone Atk 2 are). I guess my point is that there's other good stuff too!

Brave tomes are really good too but restrained in right now by only being represented in one color (blue) and not being inheritable (so you can't just pass it to the person with the best stats). Though a little moot for Nino and Tharja since they're basically the best offensive mages for their colors, too. <_< Oh yeah and them being on horses is kind of nuts. I guess I think of Dire Thunder less as a weapon category since it's technically a unique weapon constrained to two units.

I think I just place less value on WTA on colorless in arena than you and mc do. In Stratum and pve content of course it's absolutely incredible, no question there. But colorless threats have kind of fallen off hard in what I've faced and the token Takumi or Kagero that does show up is readily oneshotted with blade setup, so I'm biased.

Brave melee weapons have the issue of being melee. Drag Back mitigates this some but you still do need to be 1 range closer to initiate, which makes them much more risky to use.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #334 on: May 14, 2017, 04:29:39 PM »
Brave Bow exists too but has the problem of being colourless. And I agree about the downsides of melee you describe, especially in the case of Brave since brave users don't really love being attacked.

Obviously you can't just spread Dire Thunder everywhere but it's telling that the most common player blue mage setup is Dire Thunder, not Blarblade. (In fairness, some of this is just that Nino/Tharja probably have better stat builds than any blue mage, so if you're going to run a blade tome you might as well use one of them.) EDIT: Man I forgot about Linde entirely. Haven't seen her in the arena in ages, is that just me?

You're right that WTA over colourless in the arena is a little less important than it is in stratum/GHB/etc. because the former fundamentally has to play by the rules for stats (which is that ranged characters are weaker) and the latter is free to buff them. But (a) I still think it's pretty important, e.g. in your own post you talk about how you needed to tinker specifically with Nino's setup to avoid a OHKO from Takumi; (b) most of us would probably like to a similar set of characters for both types of content since the resources (especially time) needed to created a strong team are in reasonably short supply and while there are slight differences, essentially the same units perform well in both. (The new defence battles are a bit different in this regard, e.g. healers are better in them.

The litmus test for me is "would my team be better if I swapped Gronnraven+ for Gronnblade+ (and made a bunch of other setup adjustments to optimise for this obviously). And my own personal conclusion is that it wouldn't be. This isn't to say that it wouldn't be different for some other teams, obviously, but it's really a team-by-team thing. <mc> Why not both?


On the tome note, can someone explain to me the appeal of Naga? I see quite a lot of Julias in arena and I don't really get it. Julia herself has fine stats (35 atk is good, 32 res gives her a niche) so I understand why one might use her, but Naga doesn't have the perks of the tomes we were just describing, just +2 def/res on defence which doesn't make much difference and the ability to blow up blue/green maneketes who are rare.

On another tome note, Celica's tome has been revealed and it seems quite interesting: 14 mt, +5 atk/spd when beginning a combat at full HP, but user suffers 5 damage after attacking on the player phase. That could be a strong weapon for first strikes, and flexibly works on either phase, though probably wants healing support or clever Renewal use to truly shine. This assumes that either Celica has a decent stat build or that the tome is inheritable. They're also introducing the -owl tomes (for each colour, presumably) which have 10 might but grant +2 to all stats for each adjacent ally. I'm a bit less impressed by these since 10 might is a rather low place to be starting and getting more than one adjacent ally (which is what you need for the bonuses to sound actually impressive) is rather limiting.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 05:18:22 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #335 on: May 14, 2017, 06:47:43 PM »
Assuming two equally viable candidates, if I had to pick between Raven and Blade (and in this particular instance unless I want to give up my utility char - dancer - or my highest merged hero, that is the decision) I would go Blade simply because "pump to OHKO" is a more universally applicable solution to problems, basically. That's really what it boils down to, and why I feel Blade is a bit busted. You dodge a lot of problems by killing stuff in one hit (lots of abilities just never activate/don't get a chance to try to throw a wrench into your plans), and it has uncontested potential in that regard. Should be noted that while it's WHOLLY UNNECESSARY (Dire Thunder is fine!) Horse Emblem is typically assumed to use blade tomes to take advantage of all of the +6 cavalry hone/fortify stuff. Because you still get the OHKO on pretty much what the fuck ever without the associated speed hit. Only true on offense of course, brave weapons are just kind of better on defense IMO.

Linde is the premier offensive blue mage, but unlike Nino and Tharja she doesn't come with Blarblade so it's relatively rarer to see her (Aura doesn't really quite cut it in this day and age). Plus she wasn't available as a focus banner hero until recently and is a native 5*, unlike those two. I've been seeing more of her since the Voting Gauntlet banners came out.

Naga's not so much popular as see above where most people don't have a spare 5* Nino or even Cecilia to toss away to give to Julia, I think. Her stat spread makes her a notable arena defense pick, where her bulk can cause problems; I don't think she's run on offense much.

Celica's tome is certainly interesting and one of the more viable unique tomes, but I think the drawback is too much (taking 5 damage a chin per initiated combat and subsequently losing the bonus is kind of a big deal). It's well designed and trying to push healers or at least heal effects which I approve of. I doubt it'll be inheritable, so a lot of it will boil down to Celica herself. But yeah, it's hard for me to get excited about it when Blade goes up to 21 Mt on a Hone Attack alone. I think you could not restrict the bonus to initiation (i.e. if you attack her while she's at full HP, she still gets the +5 Atk/Spd - making it much more potent defensively as well.)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 06:49:18 PM by Laggy »
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #336 on: May 14, 2017, 07:54:09 PM »
Blade's 21 mt on Hone Atk alone, but Ragnarok with Hone Atk at full HP is 23 mt and +5 spd... it'll probably be worth less overall but it's certainly at least interesting. And from how I read the description ("If unit has 100% HP at the start of combat, unit receives Atk/Spd+5. If attacking, unit will receive 5 damage after combat."), Ragnarok will apply its bonus on the enemy phase; only the penalty is player-phase-only. Which makes sense since the penalty exists to ensure that the character takes some damage every combat, and enemy phase combat already ensures that (unless the attack tinks I guess).

It's worth noting that Ragnarok isn't a Prf tome in FE2 or FE2r (Celica's Prf weapon is a sword but they probably decided they had enough swordlords) but they certainly might make it one here because of her status as a lord; we'll see. All of this is moot if Celica is mediocre and the tome is locked to her, absolutely.


Regarding blade vs TAR, well yeah I agree that OHKOs are great and a solution to many problems. But, the thing is that TAR setups can snag OHKOs on two out of four colours as well (I didn't even realise how good they were at this until I tried it myself; only Jagen/Florina/Gwendolyn among neutral blues/greys avoid a OHKO from my Gronnraven setup for instance, and they're hardly ever used). So the main advantage -blade has is that it can OHKO same-colour matchups (and maybe WTD with some Horse/Flier Emblem shenanigans but whatever). That's no small thing, don't get me wrong, but nor is the ability to safely bait (and OHKO) Brave Bows, Takumi, Kagero, and any other greys. Without TAR, most units who can counter these take a crapload of damage in the process (Nino/Tharja/Linde/Julia can all be near OHKOed or even OHKOed depending on specifics), which can limit your options some.

On my team, raven is obviously a better choice than blade, since blade is more of an assassin's tool while raven is more defensive... and I already have an assassin due to running Dire Thunder. Similarly, on your team, blade is the clear choice due to Nino being your only source of first-strike ranged offence. So yeah, this is very much a "it depends" situation.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Meiousei

  • Glaive Slasher
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #337 on: May 15, 2017, 05:30:11 AM »
SO we got our first look at Llyod. Huh he um seems to be channeling someone...I can't tell who though. Credit goes to Reddit posters.

https://i.redd.it/b3kpp71f4lxy.png

Reiska

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #338 on: May 16, 2017, 03:39:39 AM »
Brave Bow exists too but has the problem of being colourless. And I agree about the downsides of melee you describe, especially in the case of Brave since brave users don't really love being attacked.

Obviously you can't just spread Dire Thunder everywhere but it's telling that the most common player blue mage setup is Dire Thunder, not Blarblade. (In fairness, some of this is just that Nino/Tharja probably have better stat builds than any blue mage, so if you're going to run a blade tome you might as well use one of them.) EDIT: Man I forgot about Linde entirely. Haven't seen her in the arena in ages, is that just me?

You're right that WTA over colourless in the arena is a little less important than it is in stratum/GHB/etc. because the former fundamentally has to play by the rules for stats (which is that ranged characters are weaker) and the latter is free to buff them. But (a) I still think it's pretty important, e.g. in your own post you talk about how you needed to tinker specifically with Nino's setup to avoid a OHKO from Takumi; (b) most of us would probably like to a similar set of characters for both types of content since the resources (especially time) needed to created a strong team are in reasonably short supply and while there are slight differences, essentially the same units perform well in both. (The new defence battles are a bit different in this regard, e.g. healers are better in them.

The litmus test for me is "would my team be better if I swapped Gronnraven+ for Gronnblade+ (and made a bunch of other setup adjustments to optimise for this obviously). And my own personal conclusion is that it wouldn't be. This isn't to say that it wouldn't be different for some other teams, obviously, but it's really a team-by-team thing. <mc> Why not both?


On the tome note, can someone explain to me the appeal of Naga? I see quite a lot of Julias in arena and I don't really get it. Julia herself has fine stats (35 atk is good, 32 res gives her a niche) so I understand why one might use her, but Naga doesn't have the perks of the tomes we were just describing, just +2 def/res on defence which doesn't make much difference and the ability to blow up blue/green maneketes who are rare.

On another tome note, Celica's tome has been revealed and it seems quite interesting: 14 mt, +5 atk/spd when beginning a combat at full HP, but user suffers 5 damage after attacking on the player phase. That could be a strong weapon for first strikes, and flexibly works on either phase, though probably wants healing support or clever Renewal use to truly shine. This assumes that either Celica has a decent stat build or that the tome is inheritable. They're also introducing the -owl tomes (for each colour, presumably) which have 10 might but grant +2 to all stats for each adjacent ally. I'm a bit less impressed by these since 10 might is a rather low place to be starting and getting more than one adjacent ally (which is what you need for the bonuses to sound actually impressive) is rather limiting.

I don't see how the most common player blue mage setup is Dire Thunder, considering how it's exclusive to only two characters and non-inheritable.  I see other blue mages (usually Linde, rarely Spring Lucina) much more than I see Reinhardt or Olwen personally - in fact I don't think I've ever seen an Olwen in arena.

Regarding Naga, the tome itself isn't that impressive; Laggy pretty much nailed it - she has good stats and inheriting a better tome on her is a huge resource sink and Naga is "good enough". 

Ragnarok does indeed not care whether Celica's initiating or not, which makes her extremely scary in lunatic 11-5, which I have not figured out a way to beat.  That said, that goes for both sides; she loses the 5 HP after combat whether she initiated or not, too.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #339 on: May 16, 2017, 05:10:37 AM »
In my experience, Reinhardt is absolutely the most common blue mage now and it's not particularly close, and they almost invariably run Dire Thunder. Linde and Spring Lucina are both more rare and neither runs any one tome consistently.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Meiousei

  • Glaive Slasher
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #340 on: May 16, 2017, 05:50:51 AM »
To be fair, doesn't help that you can roll Reinhardt at 4*. I need to start working on it now that I finished the event on FGO (even though I missed EVERYTHING).

Hunter Sopko

  • Heavily in Debt
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4556
  • Hai, Kazuma-desu
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #341 on: May 18, 2017, 07:35:51 AM »


My final results for the last round of the character gauntlet. Shucks. I'd hoped to place Top 100 on Robin in that last round.

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #342 on: June 09, 2017, 02:12:32 AM »
Tempest Trials is up, the promised game mode that features (temporary) permadeath in a gauntlet of maps.

It is grindy as all hell, with the hardest notable reward (the seal) at 50k points. That seal is -1 cooldown (Killer weapon effect) and is probably the best seal we've seen yet.

A perfect 7 map Lunatic run with max speed/survival mults is a bit over 700 points. 7-map Hard is half that. It's worth noting that wiping on the 7th map is worth only a little bit less than a perfect 5-map run, so if you're struggling with the Veronica fight the 7-map gauntlet may be better overall.

Fight difficulties start roughly around Tenth Stratum level (for Lunatic) and ramp up in stats to pretty crazy amounts. 80 HP on armor units and defensive stats of 40+ are not uncommon in the last few maps.

It is recommended you bring a healer or otherwise some form of healing since taking hits will be inevitable, and the bulk of your power will probably in your main team - you can technically bring four but unless you've been leveling a lot of different things like crazy, the odds of clearing without your main team is pretty low.

Speed mult is the biggest impact on your score - up to 1.5 potentially. Don't know how it's calculated offhand, but I've managed it with my team. I've also seen D rank when I ran a much slower team without a dancer.

Survival mult is simpler. Up to 1.2, and goes down whenever you lose a team. Losing individual units doesn't impact it.

Finally, there's the bonus hero mult. If you're fortunate enough to have a solid unit in the 40% bracket, obviously run them. If not, snag 4* not!Lucina and you can use her for 20%, worst case. Worth noting: you CAN use a throwaway team that has one of the bonus heroes and wipe it, then clean up with your actual real team, and your entire run will receive the mult. 40% in particular is better than losing a rank in Survival, so definitely do this if you can't fit a bonus hero on your main team.

-

My current team is my main arena core team (Catria/Nino/Olivia) plus a Lucina with Renewal 3 and Reciprocal Aid. I never thought I'd actually run that build (don't really respect it in arena) but it's working wonders here. Having a fourth offensive unit in a pinch is vastly superior to a healer, and the healing thoroughput frankly isn't any worse in practice.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #343 on: June 15, 2017, 05:02:07 AM »
It's worth noting that if time is the limiter on your play rather than stamina (as it certainly is for me, tempest trials have a low stamina cost:time ratio and I only really have the time/energy for about 3-5 hours of FEH a week these days), then the five-map version is strictly superior. You get exactly the same score per map, but the Veronica fight doesn't seem to be quite as brutal (could just be weird luck on my part) so the chance of a perfect run rises notably.

I'm also using my core team + bonus unit as a healer (Tharja with Renewal and Ardent Sacrifice). Laggystrats are superior once again. Tharja can also bait Veronica and punish her back hard if necessary, while being good in general. This team is good times, Eirika + blade, dire, and raven tome all as options and of all the colours is just amazing. Not much physical damage but tbh it's rarely needed. Magepremacy.

I've yet to not get A in speed so I'm kinda interested in how that's calculated. How much margin for error do I have?

Anyway I feel like the rewards encourage waaay too much grinding but the core idea for the event is terrific; my interest in FEH has waned but stuff like this definitely helps. Hope there's a new version in the not-too-distant future.

Congrats on reaching Tier 20, Laggykins.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 05:03:45 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #344 on: June 15, 2017, 05:32:14 AM »
but the Veronica fight doesn't seem to be quite as brutal (could just be weird luck on my part) so the chance of a perfect run rises notably.
I'm pretty sure it's something like "For every level of Tempest Trials, +1 the characters", so yeah, that probably means the final fight is +4 characters in the 5 map variant, and +6 characters in the 7 map variant.

VySaika

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2836
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #345 on: June 15, 2017, 07:27:11 PM »
I'm almost at 35K with my A team being able to win even the last battle about ~40% of the time on the 7 map Lunatic. Very, very rarely will my 2nd team fail to kill, since I always make it to battle 7 with my A team and can thus construct my B team to handle the map.

A Team is:
Olwen - Moonbow/Death Blow 3 for nonstandard tech.
Klein - Draw Back and I forget what else isn't standard for him that's on. I have the buff adjacent ally attack at start of turn thing in his C slot.
Azura - Glaces and Lancebreaker, mostly there to dance but can chump some red units that Olwen is on the wrong side of the map to just explode.
Tharja - feathered her up to 5, crystaled her up to usable. Actually really good, since if she gets to Veronica with full or near-full HP still Tharja just one rounds her. Gave her Rally Attack for those times when Klein needs a boost.

I am very determined to get that Quickened Pulse, since i want that + moonbow on Olwen so very badly.
<%Laggy> we're open minded individuals here
<+RandomKesaranPasaran> are we
<%Laggy> no not really.

<Tide|NukicommentatoroptionforF> Hatbot is a pacifist

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #346 on: June 16, 2017, 12:54:16 AM »
Olwen + Quickened Pulse is so deliciously stupid that I am very sad that I don't have time to get it.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #347 on: June 17, 2017, 07:32:50 AM »
Have spare duelling swords this week (guaranteed to promote back to 19) so doing some testing on whether BST matters.

4 infantry mages (5*) with all skills unequipped except for generic 4-star weapons:

336 (with bonus unit would be 672)
334 (with bonus unit would be 668)
333 (with bonus unit would be 666)

Their BSTs were 147, 147, 148, 148

An average of 83.6 per unit.

I only have three 5* infantry melee units, so I guess I'll test with that tomorrow.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #348 on: June 22, 2017, 02:21:13 AM »
So the Infernal difficulty Legion map is pretty crazy. Probably the first bit of content in a while I'm going to be waving the white flag at. I can see a way I might be able to win by putting Axebreaker on one of my 5-star reds (either Tharja or Xander), but it closes today and I'd really rather spend my time on other things.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: Fire Emblem Heroes Topic: You knew this was coming!
« Reply #349 on: August 08, 2017, 08:52:19 PM »
I went on hiatus on this game for a bit as other stuff kept me occupied but I'm slowly swinging back into full time active now.

Free first pull on banners is definitely cool, though of course a psychological trick to compel people to pull more so play responsibly. I got a 4* Klein and a 5* Eldigan off of my pulls on the first two banners so I can't exactly complain.

Because I've had two Hinokas sitting around forever, 170k+ feathers banked, and they finally released another flying mage I went ahead and dumped orbs on the Nohrian Summer banner, pulling nothing but blue. Got a +2 Summer Corrin for my troubles, +Atk -Res, and switched to a Flier Emblem team. Oddly enough it involves CAMILLA (not Spring Camilla, who I was never able to pull).

Summer Corrin (+2) (+Atk -Res): Blarblade+, Reposition, Aether, Life & Death 3, Desperation 3, Goad Fliers, HP+3 Seal
Camilla (+1) (+Atk -HP): Emerald Axe+, Reposition, Moonbow, Distant Counter, G Tomebreaker 3, Hone Fliers, Fortify Res 2 Seal
Caeda (+1) (+Atk -HP): Wo Dao+, Reposition, Moonbow, Death Blow 3, Drag Back, Fortify Fliers, Atk+1 Seal

-

Summer Corrin blows shit up. Blue mage is a bit awkward in the current meta but she's a ranged glass cannon who flies and has Flier Emblem buffs. Starts at 53 Atk and 40 Spd, goes up to 83/46 with both Hone/Fortify Fliers active. Only has a problem with green mages (and potentially Hector) as they'll oneshot her on the counter. Blarblade makes specials mostly superfluous so Aether is there for the arena MMR bonus. I'm actually not satisfied with Desperation in her B slot (she IS made of glass, 38/17/19 defensive stats, though Fortify Fliers can make up for that somewhat) but I can't think of anything better there. It's not like any non-green mages survive a hit from her so Tomebreaker (of either Blue or Red variety) feels pretty pointless, so the niche of being able to activate it on occasion to assuredly kill greens feels more relevant.

-

Camilla is there to murder Reinhardt. Period. The reason I went with her is because she's the only green flier with a solid Res stat, something Spring Camilla doesn't have. Distant Counter isn't mandatory but of course extremely helpful in this regard (and I had a Hector to spare from Hero Fest pulls). 32 Res + Emerald Axe = haha get fucked. Oh and that's before Fortify Fliers, which jacks her up to 34 Def and 38 Res, respectively. Eats any and all blues pretty much without question. G Tomebreaker is there to help with the team's most problematic matchup, as she'll be able to weather any hit from a green mage and assuredly kill on a double counter. Not being a mage herself means she doesn't have to worry about the G Tomebreaker mirror even, and Axebreaker isn't exactly meta.

It's funny because Camilla was pretty much discarded in favor of Cherche after skill inheritance came out (the former just hits much harder and utilized Brave Axe far better, while Camilla's speed being better was mostly an afterthought) but specifically in this arena meta where Reinhardt is scary and on a Flier Emblem team, I feel like she carves a pretty good niche. The other problem of course is that she's green and if you were running Flier Emblem you probably had Spring Camilla, so running both is really hard to justify. Notably the entire team is still pretty vulnerable to archers which Spring Camilla handily destroys. On the other hand, I definitely fear Reinhardt/Horse Emblem more than archers in general; the former is really hard to maneuver against on some maps, while archers can generally be dealt with good positioning.

-

For Flier Emblem you really only have two viable red picks, Caeda and Palla. Palla tends to be more popular as she comes with a Ruby Sword by default and has a well balanced stat spread, and Caeda suffers from a really anemic Attack stat. I went with Caeda anyway because:

1 - I had a +Atk Caeda, which jacks her up from a pathetic 25 to a slightly less sad 29
2 - I had a Wo Dao+ to spare, and Wo Dao+ plays straight into Caeda's strengths - her base speed is 37, and with Flier Emblem buffs she's practically assured to double, so a standard engagement where she gets countered once will activate Moonbow
3 - She is an absurd Res tank (34 base), and green mages are the biggest threat to the composition as noted; I fear ranged much more than melee in arena in general

So she's there to soak up hits from green mages, go in when she has to (Drag Back specifically is there to help with hit and runs) and her bad Attack is compensated with a specific setup that sees her killing in one engagement 95% of the time even against other melee reds. (On mages Wo Dao+ won't activate but most mages aren't physically sturdy enough that they'll survive initiating and doubling.) Swordbreaker's a problem, but oh well, I guess I'll just have to reserve my 83 Atk blue mage nuke for that.

-

Reposition on everyone because it is godlike and even more so on fliers.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.