Author Topic: Persona 5  (Read 12815 times)

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Persona 5
« on: May 26, 2017, 11:45:52 PM »
Hell, it's about time...

...er, wrong game.  That's not how you start a Persona stat topic. 

THIS IS HOW YOU START A PERSONA STAT TOPIC



Welcome to the 6th main game in the Persona series (ignoring spin-offs and remakes)!  And with a new game comes a new stat topic!  If you've played a modern Persona (abbreviated henceforth with "Px", where "x" = the number of the game; e.g., Persona 5 = P5) game such as P3 or P4, then you know a lot of the core mechanics already, and can generally skim through this introduction (although I would highly suggest you read through it anyway for convention details and changes you may not be familiar with among the game battle systems).

Links to Relevant Sections:
Post 1: Mechanics (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=6888.msg193999#msg193999)
Post 2: PCs, including temporary character (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=6888.msg194000#msg194000)
Post 3: Alternate equipment and personas  (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=6888.msg194001#msg194001)
Post 4: Bosses (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=6888.msg194002#msg194002)
Post 5: Alternate set-up information (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=6888.msg194003#msg194003)

Just as reference, a few abbreviations I'll be using, and their definitions:
- ST = Single-Target, an ability that strikes one target, enemy or ally
- MT = Multi-Target, an ability that strikes all targets on one side (ally or enemy)
- FST = Full-Screen-Target, an ability that affects all targets on the battlefield (ally and enemy)
- RT = Random-Target, an ability that strikes random targets (enemy); these usually have a variable number of hits, so a notation of "random target, 4 hits" means that 4 hits are spread out randomly among targets, which can focus
- DLC = Downloadable-Content, items or personas that require payment in real-life money for access
- MHP = Maximum HP, referring to the highest value a character's HP can achieve
- MSP = Maximum SP, referring to the highest value a character's SP can achieve
- CHP = Current HP, referring to the current value of a character's HP


I. Mechanics
Stats are split into core stats (subdivided by character and persona stats) and equipment stats. 

Character Stats
HP: Represents the life force of the character; once these reach 0, the character is dead; also used as the resource for physical skills...what, were you expecting something witty? 
SP: Used as the resource for magical skills

Persona Stats
St: Determines damage dealt with basic attacks and physical skills
Ma: Determines damage dealt with magical skills, including almighty skills
En: Affects damage received from all sources
Ag: Determines action order, accuracy, and evasion
Lu: Determines many non-DL parametres (such as the amount of money confused shadows drop), as well as critical hit rates, status rates, and status resistance, and quite possibly other things that haven't been determined yet

Equipment Stats
Defense: Comes from equipped protector, and reduces damage received from all sources
Evasion: Comes from equipped protector, and increases chance to dodge all attacks

Melee Attack: Comes from equipped weapon, and increase damage dealt with regular melee attacks
Melee Accuracy: Comes from equipped weapon, and increases the chance of the regular melee attack hitting the target

Ranged Attack: Comes from the equipped gun, and increases the damage dealt with ranged gun attacks
Ranged Accuracy: Comes from the equipped gun, and increases the chance of the ranged gun attack hitting the target
Rounds: Comes from the equipped gun, and dictates how many shots can be fired each turn before taking a turn to reload

Ammo: How many total bullets are available; guns are completely reloaded at the start of the turn until the total ammo count runs out; ammo can be restored via items, leaving the current dungeon, or by certain NPCs

For a general idea of how different stats affect outcomes in battle:
- Level affects all damage; at > 5 levels difference, the effect of level on damage becomes exponential
---> Level also affects other things, such as evasion and accuracy, though the greatest impact appears to be on damage
- Basic melee attacks are affected by the weapon's innate attack and character St; the primary determinant of damage is the innate attack
- Basic gun attacks are affected by the gun's innate attack only
- St affects the damage of physical and gun skills, which are unaffected by weapon attack
- Ma affects the damage of magical skills, including almighty skills
---> Boost skills increase the base damage by 25%; amp skills increase the base damage by 50%; this is additive, so stacking a boost and amp skill is a 1.75x multiplier to final damage; note this also affects the gun boost and amp skills (which are the only passive physical damage boosters in the game)
- Protector defense is universal for both magic and physical damage; however, En is a much more potent defensive marker (also known as the reason Mona is so frail)
---> Generally, En comparisons can be taken fairly literally (e.g., a character with 50 En will take half the damage a character with 25 En does)
-----> Generally, the effect of protector defense on damage received is minimal, although noticeable
-------> However, with lower En, defense begins to matter more, so both are valuable in reducing damage taken
---------> Dropping defense is more noticeable in-game against physical damage, simply because there are more high-power (severe, colossal) physical skills vs. magical skills (all colossal magical skills are boss abilities); however, they should be equally affected assuming similar multipliers
-----------> Damage variance is +/-10%, with the damages listed below taken as the average of 10 attacks to settle some of the variance a little; however, there could still be some random error
- Ag can be taken fairly literally for action order, with very mild variance for equal Ag stats (more of an issue early when Ag stats are very similar); however, it only affects the order characters act in, and barring Joker persona changes, does not vary once determined
---> All combatants get 1 turn per round; some shadows, mostly bosses, take 2 or more actions per round; a round, by definition, is the combat situation where every combatant gets a chance to take a turn depending on their Ag; once this has occurred, a new round starts and is repeated until battle ends
-----> The action order, as noted, is very consistent; if you revive a character before their turn would have come up, they will be able to take their turn; if you revive them after their turn would have taken place, they will have to wait until the next round to take their action, no matter what their Ag is
- Accuracy for regular melee and gun attacks is dependent on the weapon or gun accuracy and Ag, with a heavy emphasis on the innate weapon or gun accuracy
---> Protector evasion is generally unnoticeable, compared to Ag and Lu effects on evasion; this is probably because the values are so small, with little variety
-----> Accuracy of physical or magical skills is determined by Ag and Lu, and is unaffected by the innate weapon or gun stats
-------> Ag and Lu affect evasion about equally, so boosting both at the same time tends to produce an even greater boost to evasion
---------> Every attack in the game that deals damage can be evaded through the evasion stats
-----------> For multi-hit attacks, evasion and critical rate are checked once for the entire attack sequence (meaning that either every hit connects or criticals, or no hits none do)
- Lu, besides affecting evasion and accuracy, as well as non-DL-relevant effects, is the major determinant of ailment accuracy
---> Weapon ailment infliction is independent of Lu on either side
-----> Weapon critical rate also appears independent of Lu on either side; it may be either a set critical rate for all attacks, or vary by weapon
-------> This applies to ranged attacks and melee attacks; guns appear to have elevated critical rates compared to melee weapons, although the damage they deal is significantly lower (with one exception)

During battle, allies and enemies trade turns until one side is victorious.  When a character is struck by a critical hit or by an ability they are weak to, the target is knocked down and the attacker gains a 1 More.  The attacker can use the 1 More to act again: if they strike another weakness on a non-downed target, they will receive another 1 More and can once again take another action.  Unlike in P3 and P4, you cannot "down-lock" a target; once a character's next turn comes up, they will lose the downed status and can act (barring another status, such as despair, that prevents them from acting).  Like in P3 and P4, the death of Joker leads to a game over.   

Persona 5 contains a variety of attack affinities.  Most of these are pretty easy to understand, with a few oddities here and there:

Physical Skills:
Physical: All attacks that are not guns, which includes skills like Brave Blade, God's Hand, and regular attacks
Gun: All attacks that utilize guns, which includes all ranged weapon attacks and a small number of gun skills; it is reasonable to extend this to "shot" or "pierce" type weapons, as the gun affinity applies to slingshots and skills that have in previous games in the series been considered shot or pierce

Magical Skills:
Fire: All attacks that involve fire, such as the Agi series; these skills have an additional chance to burn targets
Ice: All attacks that involve ice, such as the Bufu series; these skills all have an additional chance to freeze targets
Wind: All attacks that involve wind, such as the Garu series; these attacks deal technical damage to targets afflicted with the burn status
Electric: All attacks that involve lightning, such as the Zio series; these skills have an additional chance to shock targets
Nuclear: All attacks that involve nuclear energy, such as the Frei series; these skills deal technical damage to targets afflicted with burn, freeze, or shock status
Psychic: All attacks that involve mind damage, such as the Psy series; these are also referred to as telekinesis, psychokinesis, and psionic elemental; these skills deal technical damage to targets afflicted with mental statuses
Bless: All attacks that involve bless damage, such as the Kouha series; this also includes the insta-death effects from the Hama series; this element has been called Bless, Holy, and Light throughout the series
Curse: All attacks that involve curse damage, such as the Eiha series; this also includes the insta-death effects from the Mudo series; this element has been called Curse, Evil, and Dark throughout the series

Almighty: All attacks that involve almightyness, such as the Megido series; these attacks are not subject to Makarakarn or Tetrakarn, although they are subject to defensive stats and are boosted in damage by the Ma stat; there is no way in-game to negate these abilities from an affinity standpoint, although they can be evaded

Elemental Ailments:
Burn: Afflicted receives 10% MHP damage per turn; receives technical damage from wind and nuclear affinities
Freeze: Afflicted skips their next turn and all affinities are negated until recovery; receives technical damage from physical and nuclear affinities; receiving damage will dispel the ailment
Shock: Afflicted skips their next turn; receives technical damage from physical and nuclear affinities; melee attacks against target have a chance of transferring the ailment to the attacker

Physical (Body) Ailments:
Dizzy: Afflicted accuracy is reduced by 50%; receives technical damage from anything
Sleep: Afflicted cannot act; receives technical damage from anything; recovers 10% MHP and MSP while afflicted; receiving damage will dispel the ailment
Forget: Afflicted cannot use persona abilities (i.e., non-attack/gun/item/guard abilities)
Hunger: Afflicted damage dealt is reduced by 50%

Mental (Mind) Ailments:
Confuse: Afflicted has an equal chance of skipping their turn, dropping money, or dropping an item; receives technical damage from psychic affinity
Fear: Afflicted has an equal chance of skipping their turn or running from the battle; receives technical damage from psychic affinity; will instantly die when targeted by the Ghastly Wail skill
Despair: Afflicted skips their turns, loses 5% MSP per turn, and will die automatically on their 3rd turn; receives technical damage from psychic affinity
Rage: Afflicted target can only use their regular melee attack; doubles damage dealt and received; receives technical damage from psychic affinity
Brainwash: Afflicted has an equal chance of attacking an ally, using a healing skill on an enemy, or using a buff skill on an enemy; receives technical damage from psychic affinity

Other Ailments:
Insta-Death: Character dies instantly; there are 5 main sources of this ailment in-game
- Bless-aligned
- Curse-aligned
- Despair ailment
- Ghastly Wail on fear-inflicted targets
- Thanatos and Thanatos Picaro's Door to Hades skill (almighty-aligned)
Of these, affinities provide resistance or immunity to bless or curse, and equipment and some passive skills protect against the ailments that can lead to insta-death.  It is impossible in-game, however, to be completely immune to insta-death, because Door to Hades is almighty (and nothing resists or negates almighty).  However, there are no enemy abilities that are almighty and inflict insta-death, so a PC is technically immune to all sources of insta-death they would be targeted by if they are bless and curse immune, and are unaffected by either of the insta-death-prone ailments.

As a note, ailments last for 2 turns on the target unless otherwise noted above.  Upon the target's 3rd turn while inflicted, they will recover.  It is not possible to refresh ailments and extend their duration.  Additionally, a target afflicted with an ailment is immune to being inflicted with another ailment, except being downed by a critical or their weakness.  Every ailment in the game with the exception of despair wears of naturally. 

Heal/Assist: All healing, status restoration, and revival abilities
Support: All support skills such as Tarukaja, Dekaja, Tetrakarn, etc.

All buffs and debuffs (e.g., Tarukaja, Rakunda) last for 3 turns on the target.  Unlike ailments, buffs and debuffs can be refreshed by recasting the ability while it is still in effect. 

Passive: All skills that are active innately, such as Fire Amp, Drain Phys, and Attack Master

For defensive passive skills, the following hierarchy takes precedent: Absorb > Repel > Null > Resist > Innate Weakness.  Skills with the same name or effect do not stack, and are overriden by the stronger skill (e.g., Evade Psy and Dodge Psy do not stack, only Evade Psy's bonus is provided).

Being afflicted by certain ailments, as mentioned above, gives bonuses to damage.  Damage bonuses from technical, critical, weakness, and being downed are all 50%.  These do not stack; if you are weak to an affinity and subject to technical damage, you only deal 50% more damage.

All characters have the ability to guard.  Guarding will reduce the next damaging attack received by 50%, dispelling the guarding effect.  While guarding, characters are immune to all ailments. 


II. Characters and Levels
Characters are taken at level 75.  This is the level at which the party members with set personas (i.e., everyone but Joker) gain their final skills.  Additionally, it's the level of the final boss, and is the level I ended at running through the game on normal, making it a very fitting final level.

Personas can hold a maximum of 8 skills.  I have defaulted to the 8 skills I believe are most beneficial in most circumstances.  In-game, it is possible to re-acquire lost party member skills, as long as you have learned it before (and not just tossed it away when given the opportunity to learn it), although it does take half a day of in-game time to do such.  Thus, I would allow the party members to modify their skills as needed, although this will rarely be necessary.

For Joker, his personal level matters only for HP and SP.  His core stats will be affected by the persona he uses.  Now, what persona to default him with for the stats here is a significant question that I deliberated on for a while.  There are multiple matters complicating his default persona choice:
- While the stats of the party members are set, Joker's persona stats beyond their starting level stats are randomized
---> With the way fusions are handled, you can modify those level-up stats any way you want, allowing very focused set-up
- Joker cannot create a persona above his level, unless you max out one of the confidants (which can be done midway through the game), which allows you to pay money to create personas at a higher level that Joker
---> These can get extraodinarily expensive, although it's all about the level difference; at level 75, the highest level persona you can create, Lucifer, shouldn't cost more than 250000 yen or so
- When Joker creates a new persona, they gain experience based on the confidant levels he has achieved; this means they will gain, assuming maxed confidants, about 5 levels, which is typically enough to learn all of their skills
---> Additionally, you can sacrifice a persona to give experience to another persona; given enough money, you can take a level 1 Arsene to level 99, and completely control its stat growth at the same time
-----> This sacrifice also bestows a random skill upon the recipient, which can be reset to pass along certain skills to a target persona
- When fusing personas, you are able to choose what skills to pass on to the resulting persona, which is different from P3 and P4 where it was random and you had to keep refreshing the fusion page until you got exactly what you wanted
---> Additionally, skill cards exist, which allow you to add a specific skill to a persona after they have been fused; outside of a select few limitations, you can add any skill to any persona   
- One of Joker's major advantages in-game is his multiple personas, the ability to switch around affinities and skillsets as needed; generally, you go through personas and fuse them to get higher level personas on a regular basis, as the experience needed to level up Joker's personas is much higher than the experience needed to level up the other party member personas, making level gaining the traditional way very inefficient for Joker; this has the added effect of generally buffing his stats to be a bit higher than the other party members once he fuses a new persona, with the rest of the party member catching up after a few level gains of their own
---> Since all characters with 1 exception have core stats equal to [(Level * 3) + 7], it's pretty easy to see how Joker having a level 90 persona at level 75 while the others have level 75 personas can make things a little unbalanced (although, as noted, this does happen in-game to an extent)

With that having been said, I set out with some criteria to find options for Joker's default persona.  I went had the following ideas in mind when looking for the default persona:
- Ideally, a persona that is an ultimate arcana persona
---> This ultimate arcana persona must be an automatic max, which limits it to FOOL, MAGICIAN, JUSTICE, and JUDGEMENT
-----> All of these ultimate personas are above the endgame level to varying degrees, although the ultimate MAGICIAN persona, Futsunushi, is level 76, which would be reasonable
- Ideally, a persona that learns its last skill at level 75
---> There is no persona that meets this criteria, so I adjusted this to level 76 (which gives Joker a bit of his in-game stat advantage, which is probably a good thing overall, and true to in-game)

Unfortunately, no persona meets both those primary criteria, since Futsunushi learns his last skill at level 82.  Level 82 is a good deal higher than 75, which doesn't seem terribly fair to the rest of the cast.  So I focused primarily on the second criteria above, which means that Joker's default persona is JUSTICE Throne, learning its last skill at level 76, and sporting non-fail resistance.  This actually works fairly well without heavily screwing over the rest of the cast.   

I (and I believe most others) allow Joker to use his massive variety of personas, even though I will default the stat averages to JUSTICE Throne above.  I will list a variety of personas for Joker with the following assumptions:
- Personas will be listed at the level at which they learn their last skill
- Stats are taken as an average of 10 sets, to ease the randomness a bit
- I do not assume skill cards are used, although I would allow them
- I do not assume skill transfer; skills listed are the core skills the persona learns
---> If you allow skill transfer, the combinations are endless, and about as broken as you can imagine
-----> Unlike in the original versions of P3 and P4, since you can pick the exact skill you want in P5, it's arguably much more legal, although for simplicity sake, I am assuming it is not used
- I do not assume Network Fusion at all; Network Fusion is very random, and the main allure is acquiring 4 (3 if you allow DLC personas) skills that cannot be acquired anywhere else
---> As such, the skills Almighty Amp, Mage's Gift, and Soul Chain are not allowed; if you disallow DLC personas, then Almighty Boost is also completely illegal (it's available on 2 DLC personas and Network Fusion)
- I will list relevant DLC personas, although due to the stats on many of them (being early-midgame focused personas), not many will be viable
-----> DLC personas cost $2.99 each, and you get 2 personas with each purchase, an original version and a Picaro version with better stats and slightly different skills
- Since I am not assuming skill transfer or skill cards, I adhered to the following when deciding what personas to list:
---> Damage of each major element; since psychic and nuclear are both fairly rare, I only listed a major source of psychic damage, as no persona naturally gains a severe damage nuclear attack along with the relevant amp
-----> Reliable ailments (primarily insta-death)
-------> High physical damage (either gun or physical, although we all know this is going to be Yoshitsune with Hassou Tobi)
---------> Solid defenses and tanking
-----------> Weird and potentially useful stuff (that's not too obscure)

I do not assume Joker does any training.  It takes time that is better spent raising confidants on a first runthrough.  If you assume perfect time management, you can probably get a boost to Joker's HP and SP of about 40 or so.  In a New Game+, since you don't need as much time to level social stats, you can do more training.  Having said that, it also requires a bit of time and use of specific items that a player may not know about.  As such, again, I do not assume any HP or SP training for Joker's stats.

Related: I assume every confidant is maxed for this topic.  This primarily affects Joker (since he need a maxed confidant to use the ultimate persona of each arcana), but has a few other effects on the cast (increased ammo capacity for guns).  Most confidant abilities are not useful in the DL, being in-game benefits, but some (Tower, their personal confidants) may have use.  In particular, every party member acquires the Endure (survive fatal attack with 1 HP once per batle) skill at level 9 of their confidant.  If you are stringent with this, it is missable on all party members except Mona.


III. Equipment
Not as complicated as some other games in the series!  Equipment is either storebought, found in dungeons, or received by itemizing personas.  Storebought equipment is fairly straightforward - I allow all storebought stuff from the Airsoft Shop, which makes up the majority of equipment in the game.  Items found in dungeons are generally one-of-a-kind items, or eventually become storebought.  Itemization can only be performed once per day, so there is a limit.  However, this is more than generous enough to make most of the items you want, with some time to spare.  As such, I generally allow itemization, although with some limits (as noted below).

All melee and ranged weapons are unique, and all except 1 (Joker's ultimate melee weapon) are attainable in a first run of the game.  I allowed Joker's ultimate weapon, even though it requires New Game+.  It's 10 more power than the best storebought, and the effect isn't very broken (and is easily reproducible in a first run of the game).  It also looks nice to have everyone with their best weapons (even though one could argue Joker prefers the Pro Parrying Dagger). 

I defaulted to weapons that do not have a major impact on the stat averages besides damage (so weapons that provided bonuses to St or Ma are in, but those with bonuses to Ag or En are not).  There are a couple outliers in the weapon category that are the reason I did this: Joker (All Stats+5 gun), Fox (Ag+10 gun), and Queen (All Stats+10 gun).  These all require high level personas, which may not be accessible without a high enough level or the Strength confidant and a ton of money.  Since they are so skewing (particularly to the Ag average), I did not assume them as default, as the DL inflates them even more than in-game (although they are also good in-game).  Additionally, one could argue that Fox and Queen do prefer other weapon effects, meaning they don't always want them as default, so I think this works out well. 

Protectors are unisex, male, female, or cat.  Cat items are unique to Mona; he can't use any other protectors, nor can anyone else use those protectors.  There are several protectors that are unique to Joker, including some from DLC; however, these all require itemization.  Some of the best protectors are only available through laundry, which is random (although you can save and reset to get the ones you want).  Moreover, there is a somewhat limited window when they are available (only enough time to get 4 armours, which, while enough to outfit an active party, is not enough for everyone who wants them in a first run-through).  As such I do not allow the laundry-unique protectors.  This includes Mona's unique protectors; while they are unique, they are still random, and generally very limited in quantity.  I do not allow protectors obtained from itemization either, as this starts to hit some time-constraints, and you are limited by the itemization materials for protectors without significant farming for them.  Like with weapons, I did not default to those that provided a major change to the averages beyond damage (since protector defense isn't hugely impactful on the damage received). 

Accessories are generally allowed, although there aren't a ton of choices.  Joker has some unique accessories, and everyone is defaulted to their starting accessory.  Accessory options are limited to mild stat boosting (HP+20, SP+20, All Stats+1), ailment resistance, or aiment immunity.  Some accessories are only buyable on a monthly basis (e.g., all the ailment immunity ones), so if you start buying them late, you might not have enough for a full party (although enough to outfit a battle party is very reasonable).  However, there are usually other ways to acquire ailment immunity accessories, so I think it's fair to allow the ailment immunity accessories to the whole cast.  Like with weapons and protectors, accesories are also itemizable from personas.  Unlike weapons and protectors, there is generally an overabundance of the synthesis materials, so these are generally more DL-legal to me than the others.  You're still limited to 1 itemization per day, so time constraints apply.  I will list them if you feel inclined to allow them.

If you allow DLC, then there are additional accessories to consider.  When you purchase DLC costumes for $6.99 each, you are given 9 accessories (enough for everyone party member, including the NAVI and temp), which will persist through New Game+.  I will list these as well if you feel inclined to allow them.       

Ailment Immunity Accessories:
Hunger Gem: Null hunger
Sleep Gem: Null sleep
Rage Gem: Null rage
Despair Gem: Null despair
Hot Compress: Null freeze
Wood Clappers: Burn susceptibility reduced by 50%
Rubber Gloves: Shock susceptibility reduced by 50%
Wild Clogs: Fear susceptibility reduced by 50%

*For those keeping track, there is no storebought immunity or resistance for dizzy, confuse, brainwash, or forget ailments that are storebought

Joker Unique Accessories:
*Hand Mirror: Counterstrike (15% chance to reflect physical or gun attack back at attacker; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats)
**Doll: St+5/En+5
**Tiki Necklace: Ma+5/En+5
**Engraved Ring: Ma+5/Lu+5
**Honu Charm: En+5/Lu+5

*This accessory is given if you score well enough on the first set of final exams in July; depending on your knowledge stat, this may not be available
**These accessories are given during the Hawaii event, and require a certain level of confidant to access; therefore, some may not be available

Itemization Accessories Not Otherwise Mentioned:
Regent: St+3, Critical rate up 10% (I believe this only affects regular attacks; characters with poor Lu, such as Queen and Fox, see almost no benefit from this type of boost)
Stone of Scone: En+3, Physical and gun damage received reduced by 10%
Emperor's Amulet: En+5, Auto-Tarukaja
Orlov: Ma+3, High Counter (20% chance to reflect physical or gun attack back at attacker; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats)
Queen's Necklace: All Stats+1, SP+30
Koh-i-Noor: All Stats+2, Bless Boost
Hope Diamond: All Stats+3, Regenerate 3 (restores 6% MHP per turn)
Crystal Skull: All Stats+5, raises evasion against magic attacks by 30% (non-Hama/Mudo, excludes almighty)
Legion's Jail: Null fear
Daffodils: Null despair
Thunder Band: Null shock
Shackles: Null rage
Hua Khon: Null Bless insta-kill
Petra Genetrix: Null burn
Khamrai Tao: Fire damage received reduced by 30%

*If you're still keeping track, there is still no immunity or resistance for brainwash, confuse, dizzy, or forget ailments

DLC Itemization Accessories:
Black Moon: Critical rate up 30%
Black Headband: SP+40
White Headband: HP+50
Darkness Ring: Taises evasion against curse (non-Mudo) attacks by 30%
Thunder Horns: En+10, Fire Boost
Hades Harp: Ag+3, Null brainwash
Red Yarn Ball: Lu+10, Auto-Tarukaja

*With all accessories allowed, the cast still misses confuse, dizzy, and forget for status ailment resistance or immunity

Other Accessories:
Stamina Sash: HP+20
Mind Choker: SP+20
Knight Crest: All Stats+1
Bold Eyepatch: Raises evasion against physical attacks by 10%
Fire Mask: Raises evasion against fire attacks by 10%
Ice Mask: Raises evasion against ice attacks by 10%
Wind Mask: Raises evasion against wind attacks by 10%
Elec Mask: Raises evasion against electric attacks by 10%
Protect Mask: Raises evasion against cure (non-Mudo) attacks by 10%
Hamya Mask: Raises evasion against bless (non-Hama) attacks by 10%
Heat Mask: Raises evasion against nuclear attacks by 10%
Psychic Mask: Raises evasion against psychic attacks by 10%
Red Bracelet: Fire Amp
Blue Bracelet: Ice Amp
Green Bracelet: Wind Amp
Yellow Bracelet: Elec Amp
Star Bracelet: Nuke Amp
Circular Bracelet: Psy Amp
White Bracelet: Bless Amp
Black Bracelet: Curse Amp
Regen Patch 3: Restores 6% MHP per turn
SP Adhesive 3: Restores 7 SP per turn
Resist Ring: Magic damage received reduced by 10%
Spirit Ring: Physical damage received reduced by 10%
Grudge Gauze: Curse damage received reduced by 50% (this overrides weakness from a damage received perspective, but will still inflict the down ailment and give the inflictee a 1 More)
Thought Gauze: Psychic damage received reduced by 50% (this overrides weakness from a damage received perspective, but will still inflict the down ailment and give the inflictee a 1 More)

DLC Accessories:
Hermelin Badge: Null Bless/Curse
Arm PC: All Stats+3, SP+20
Lambs' Pillow: Ailment susceptibility reduced by 50%
Gauntlet: Raises critical rate and magic evasion
Kuzunoha Tubes: HP and SP cost of skills reduced by 25% (stacks with Spell Master and Arms Master)

For each specific character, I will list their unique melee and ranged weapons, and useful protectors, in the 3rd post, where I also will list Joker's multiple Personas. 


IV. Miscellaneous
Damage is taken against a level 75 target, neutral to all affinities.  Their En is lower than the average of endgame shadows, but this makes the numbers look a bit more like in-game (where you have Auto-Mataru, multiple stat boosters, etc.), so I think it works out well.  If you want to see the numbers vs. average endgame shadow En, approximately half the damage numbers.

Critical rates are taken against average endgame shadow level (75) and Lu.  I have rounded these to the nearest multiple of 5.

Accuracy modifer is an average accuracy of the character taken against average endgame shadow level (75), Ag, and Lu.  I have rounded these to the nearest multiple of 5.  Accuracy is generally not a massive problem at endgame, as only Skull and Noir have some accuracy issues (and only with their MT skills; MT skills have lower accuracy than ST ones, and magic appears to be more accurate than physical skills).  It's hard to tell anything above 100%, but I have listed what I think this is, based on testing varying levels of Ag and Lu.  This represents how likely the character is to miss against endgame shadows.  Note that some moves, such as MT physical skills, are less accurate than others, so this number may undersell the accuracy of some skills, while overselling the accuracy of others.

Status accuracy is taken against a average endgame shadow level (75) and Lu.  I have rounded these to the nearest multiple of 5. 

Durabilities are listed based on the character HP and En as compared to the rest of the cast.  While protector defense also impacts this, the default protectors are all very similar in defense at endgame, hence the individual character En is the biggest determinant of durability (since the HP spread is small compared to previous games in the series).

Evasion is taken against average endgame shadow level (75), Ag, and Lu.  This indicates how likely they are to dodge attacks at endgame.

Speed is action order priority as compared to the rest of the cast.

Ailment resistance is taken against average endgame shadow level (75), ailment accuracy, and Lu.  This indicates how likely they are to be hit by ailments at endgame. 

If a character is listed as having a boost or amp skill on their default (all characters but Fox), the damage is taking that into account.  If the character has an amp or boost skill not listed (like Panther's Burn Boost) in their default skillset, its effect is not included (but can be easily estimated with simple multiplication).
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 01:11:40 AM by Dark Holy Elf »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

OblivionKnight

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2017, 11:46:04 PM »

Joker
"Kill it, Jim..."
HP: 492
SP: 264
St: 46 (49)
Ma: 51 (61)
En: 49
Ag: 51
Lu: 38

Accuracy Modifier: 110%
Durability: 107% (214% for 3 turns with Auto-Maraku)
Evasion: 15% (45% vs. Curse)
Speed: 110%
Ailment Resistance: -10%

Melee Weapon: Paradise Lost (290 attack, 92 accuracy, reduces curse damage recevied by 30%)
Ranged Weapon (32 ammo): Tyrant Pistol (390 attack, 98 accuracy, 8 rounds, Ma+10)
Protector: Demon's Jacket (266 defense, 14 evasion, St+3)
Accessory: Hip Glasses (Automatically summons a pumpkin spice latte each round for Joker to drink)

Down Shot (6 rounds): Joker will automatically down a target, giving him an immediate 1 More; this does not work on bosses, but does work on mid-bosses, and is otherwise not resistable
Oda Special (P): Joker's gun attacks ignore target resistance to guns (drain, repel, null, or resist); this does not override gun weaknesses, which are treated normally; this notably does not apply to persona gun skills, only Joker's regular gun attack

JUSTICE Throne
Drain: Fire
Null: Bless
Resist: Nuclear
Weak: Curse

Attack: 172 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Gun: 30 gun damage per hit, ST, 10% critical rate (240 per full clip)

Makougaon (22 SP): 325 bless damage, MT
Mahamaon (34 SP): Inflicts bless-based insta-death 30%, MT
Hama Boost (P): Raises Hama accuracy by 50%
Invigorate 3 (P): Restores 7 SP per turn
Bless Amp (P): Raises bless damage by 50%
Evade Curse (P): Triples evasion against curse attacks (non-Mudo)
Auto-Maraku (P): Casts Marakukaja at the start of battle (lowers damage received by 50% for 3 turns, MT)

Comments: Hey, it's a modern Persona protagonist.  I think we all know what to expect here.  The next post has all of his various personas, so he's got a ton of variety, damage, durability, ailments, etc.  Effectively, if he needs to do something, he can.  In practice, his damage is probably 50% higher, due to Down Shot (assuming you allow the 1 More).  Even if you ignore skill transfer, he can get game-best damage, highly accurate ailments, ridiculous walling of elements, rarely resisted damage to punch through resistances, regeneration, and even a second life with Enduring Soul.  If you allow skill transfer and skill cards, this can get ridiculous, as in personas immune to everything but almighty, brokenly accurate 150% speed 99% ailment infliction (several of which, like despair, are rarely resisted and mean automatic death), automatic Tarukaja + Sukukaja + Rakukaja at the same time...really, any combination you could want.  He's better than Soji, just due to better arguments for inheritance and better walling (plus some additional passive skills Soji would kill for).  Probably worse than Minato if only due to fusions and arguable initiative strike.  Of note, he has (like the rest of the cast) SP reserve problems, so he'll need to watch the expensive skills (or rely on things like Spell Master and Invigorate), unlike his contemporaries.  Still an easy Godlike.


Skull
"What the eff!?"
HP: 553
SP: 214
St: 56 (59)
Ma: 32
En: 61
Ag: 42
Lu: 41

Accuracy Modifier: 90%
Durability: 148%
Evasion: 5% (15% vs. wind)
Speed: 92%
Ailment Resistance: 0%

Melee Weapon: Mjolnir (254 attack, 88 accuracy, Elec Boost)
Ranged Weapon (16 ammo): Kiraihou II (344 attack, 86 accuracy, 4 rounds, inflicts shock 20%)
Protector: Demon's Jacket (266 defense, 14 evasion, St+3)
Accessory: Suspenders (Allows the wearer to transform into Stefan Urquelle after entering a transformation chamber)

CHARIOT Seiten Taisei
Null: Electric
Resist: Fire
Weak: Wind

Attack: 169 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Gun: 56 gun damage per hit, ST, 10% critical rate, inflicts shock 20% (224 per full clip, 59% chance of shock) [76% chance of shock with Shock Boost]

God's Hand (25% MHP): 443 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Headbutt (9% MHP): 133 physical damage, ST, 10% critical rate, inflicts brainwash 15%
Bad Beat (21% MHP): 167 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate, inflicts despair 10%
Ziodyne (12 SP): 170 electric damage, ST, inflicts shock 15%
Charge (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next physical or gun attack by 2.5, Self
Tarukaja (8 SP): Raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Shock Boost (P): Raises shock infliction rate for electric skills by 50%
Evade Wind (P): Triples evasion against wind attacks
----------
Elec Boost (P): Raises electric damage by 25%
Elec Break (15 SP): Negates innate electric resistance for 3 turns, MT; this cannot be dispelled, but will not negate the effects of Elec Wall
Matarukaja (24 SP): Raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Maziodyne (22 SP): 170 electric damage, MT, inflicts shock 15%
Swift Strike (17% MHP): 86 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate, hits 3-4 times
Agneyastra (24% MHP): 168 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate, hits 1-3 times

Comments: Skull is what happens when Chie and Kanji get drunk and make sweet, disturbing, passionate love to each other.  He's basically the average of the two of them.  Not as durable as Kanji, and still a bit slow (though relatively not as bad), but picks up Chie's skillset.  Wind is one of the better weaknesses to have, in the DL, and his resistance set is excellent.  Like Chie, he keeps the awesomeness of Charge --> God's Hand.  Unlike in P4, in P5, God's Hand is the strongest skill in the game (on a hit-per-hit basis...of course Hassou Tobi is better), so his offense is way better.  His accuracy is better than Kanji's too, meaning he'll miss his big damage less.  His gun options give him lots of ailments to choose from, though he really wants to just stick with shock most of the time, due to the Shock Boost passive.  This provides a technical bonus to God's Hand, meaning his damage can be nuts.  Gun to inflict shock --> Charge --> God's Hand for 1100+ damage.  If he really wants to hedge his bets, he can try to sneak in Tarukaja for ~1600+ damage.  He's helped a lot by the speed spread not being as great in P5 as in P4, and the ailment options on the guns really help fill in the holes.  Note that if he wants to opt for a different weapon, he'll lose the Elec Boost unless he switches his skills up.  This will probably never be a major issue, but it's important to note.  Probably a decent Heavy. 


Mona
"You must be tired after today.  Let's go to sleep"
HP: 423
SP: 272
St: 47
Ma: 51 (54)
En: 37
Ag: 49
Lu: 48

Accuracy Modifier: 125%
Durability: 70%
Evasion: 20% (60% vs. electric) [40% vs. psychic]
Speed: 106%
Ailment Resistance: 15%

Melee Weapon: God Saber (242 attack, 96 accuracy, Ma+3)
Ranged Weapon (25 ammo): Pirate Killer SP (322 attack, 80 accuracy, 4 rounds, inflicts despair 20%)
Protector: Nekomata Coat (251 defense, 23 evasion, raises evasion against psychic attacks by 20%)
Accessory: Fanny Pack (Who the hell even wears these stupid things anymore?)

MAGICIAN Mercurius
Null: Wind
Resist: Bless
Weak: Electric

Attack: 150 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Gun: 51 gun damage per hit, ST, 10% critical rate, inflicts despair 20% (204 per full clip, 59% chance of despair)

Garudyne (10 SP): 345 wind damage, ST
Miracle Punch (8% MHP): 125 physical damage, ST, 50% critical rate
Masukunda (24 SP): Lowers accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Diarahan (18 SP): 100% MHP healing, ST
Salvation (48 SP): 100% MHP healing, cures all non-special ailments, MT
Evade Elec (P): Triples evasion against wind attacks
Wind Amp (P): Raises wind damage by 50%
Wind Boost (P): Raises wind damage by 25%
----------
Patra (4 SP): Cures physical (body) ailments, ST
Me Patra (8 SP): Cures physical (body) ailments, MT
Wind Break (15 SP): Negates innate wind resistance for 3 turns, MT; this cannot be dispelled, but will not negate the effects of Wind Wall
Wind Wall (18 SP): Adds wind resistance for 3 turns, ST, overrides innate weakness
Samarecarm (18 SP): 100% MHP revival, ST
Magarudyne (20 SP): 345 wind damage, MT
Mediarahan (30 SP): 100% MHP healing, MT

Comments:  I love Mercurius - just looks so damn cool.  Unfortunately, Mercurius is weak to a very common element, and Mona's durability is...shall we say, a little poor.  Mona would love to grab another armour for more evasion or damage, but runs a huge risk of getting 2-shotted even easier, or worse.  Wind and light are, sadly, not the best of resistances, but the evasion is pretty nice.  Mona hits 50% evasion pretty easily with Masukunda, and the backing of healing and decent wind damage could be worse.  Like a lot of the cast, he loves the DL translation of guns: 2 rounds of shooting, and Mona has inflicted the target with despair on average.  He's a little hard to peg, as he can shut down people relatively easily, but he can also be shut down easily, especially since he is so SP-reliant for his damage and survival.  Probably ranges a bit depending on speed respect, durability, and if you penalize despair in its DL-translation.  Given my views, I'd peg him as a Middle or Heavy, probably erring on the Heavy side.  Masukunda vs. avoidable damage --> spam gun until despair --> win.  It works brilliantly against PCs, and can work against bosses too with healing, though his durability may hold him back. 


Panther
"A beautiful rose has thorns!"
HP: 449
SP: 272
St: 42
Ma: 59 (62)
En: 42
Ag: 43
Lu: 47

Accuracy Modifier: 105%
Durability: 85%
Evasion: 15% (45% vs. ice) [25% (75% vs. ice) for 3 turns with Snow Queen's Whip]
Speed: 94%
Ailment Resistance: 15%

Melee Weapon: Snow Queen's Whip (210 attack, 90 accuracy, Auto-Sukukaja)
Ranged Weapon (60 ammo): Wild Hunt (386 attack, 84 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts despair 20%)
Protector: Haten Robe (241 defense, 18 evasion, Ma+3)
Accessory: Hairpin (Allows user to pick locks, but only if the locks are less waifu than the user)

LOVERS Hecate
Null: Fire
Resist: Electric
Weak: Ice

Attack: 119 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Gun: 40 gun damage per hit, RT, 10% critical rate, inflicts despair 20% (240 per full clip, 74% chance of despair)

Agidyne (12 SP): 380 fire damage, ST, inflicts burn 20%
Dormina (5 SP): Inflicts sleep 95%, ST
Diarahan (18 SP): 100% MHP healing, ST
Concentrate (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next magic attack by 2.5, Self
Tarunda (8 SP): Lowers damage by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Evade Ice (P): Triples evasion against ice attacks
Fire Boost (P): Raises fire damage by 25%
Fire Amp (P): Raises fire damage by 50%
----------
Fire Break (15 SP): Negates innate fire resistance for 3 turns, MT; this cannot be dispelled, but will not negate the effects of Fire Wall
Fire Wall (18 SP): Adds fire resistance for 3 turns, ST, overrides innate weakness
Burn Boost (P): Raises burn infliction rate for fire skills by 50%
Dekaja (10 SP): Dispels all -kaja buff effects, MT
Matarunda (24 SP): Lowers damage by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Tentarafoo (12 SP): Inflicts confuse 65%, MT
Maragidyne (22 SP): 380 fire damage, MT, inflicts burn 20%
Blazing Hell (54 SP): 428 fire damage, MT, inflicts burn 30%

Comments: She reminds me a lot of Alana from P1, with a lot of firepower and tons of ailments.  Her skillset is absolutely beautiful: accurate ailments, solid damage, healing, damage mitigation in Tarunda, and inflicts an additional damage-dealing ailment with her primary damage.  Ice isn't a great weakness to have, but her resistances are excellent, and she has enough evasion to keep her afloat, especially backed by Tarunda.  She hates how expensive the severe magic skills are relative to their damage output, though Concentrate helps fix that a lot.  She'd kill for slightly more durability or speed (though neither are terrible), but otherwise, she has an awesome mix of skills.  Despair off of that many shots is pretty brutal, and unlike Mona, she doesn't get heal-locked as hard.  Two rounds of gun-fire is a 94% chance of despair (not that the 74% chance off one round is bad or anything...).  Otherwise, Dormina --> Concentrate --> Agidyne for 1400+ damage.  Tarunda and Diarahan as needed.  Probably a Heavy with the skillset; I could see arguments for Godlike, but she would probably need a little more speed or durability to pull that off reliably.


Fox
"Hm...My ad-mice would be to pro-squeak cautiously"
HP: 478
SP: 225
St: 59 (67)
Ma: 42
En: 50
Ag: 46
Lu: 35

Accuracy Modifier: 100%
Durability: 106%
Evasion: 10% (30% vs. fire) [20% (60% vs. fire) with Sukukaja]
Speed: 100%
Ailment Resistance: -15%

Melee Weapon: Senryou Yakusha (160 attack, 90 accuracy, St+5)
Ranged Weapon (48 ammo): GI Type SP (144 attack, 88 accuracy, 12 rounds, inflicts shock 10%)
Protector: Demon's Jacket (266 defense, 14 evasion, St+3)
Accessory: Silver Key Ring (Allows user to summon a car to their aid; the car, once unlocked, provides complete immunity to all damage, and instant kills anything it attacks; unlocking the car takes a variable number of turns, as it turns out this isn't the right key for the car, and the user then has to call AAA to open the car, but then you realize you have the right key and don't want to pay them, but they hold the car hostage since you called them even though they just showed up and didn't open anything really and WHAT THE FUCK MAN JUST GET OUT OF HERE AND LET ME GO HOME, I'VE HAD A DUMP BREWING FOR HOURS)

EMPEROR Kamu Susano-o
Null: Ice
Resist: Wind
Weak: Fire

Attack: 157 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Gun: 14 gun damage per hit, ST, 10% critical rate, inflicts shock 10% (168 per full clip, 72% chance of shock)

Brave Blade (24% MHP): 435 physical damage, ST, 10% critical rate
Mind Slice (19% MHP): 191 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate, inflicts confuse 20%
Myriad Slashes (20% MHP): 172 physical damage, ST, 10% critical rate, hits 2-3 times
Bufudyne (12 SP): 153 ice damage, ST, inflicts freeze 5%
Sukukaja (8 SP): Raises accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Speed Master (P): Casts Sukukaja at the start of battle (raises accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, Self)
Evade Fire (P): Triples evasion against fire attacks
High Counter (P): 20% chance to reflect physical or gun attack back at attacker; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats
----------
Vorpal Blade (23% MHP): 259 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate
Tempest Slash (17% MHP): 71 physical damage, ST, 15% critical rate, hits 3-5 times
Mabufudyne (22 SP): 153 ice damage, ST, inflicts freeze 5%
Masukukaja (24 SP): Raises accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, MT

Comments: Fox is...weird.  Both as a character and as a combatant.  He has a terrible set of resistances and weaknesses, somewhat mitigated by Sukukaja (but still unhappy in the extreme; only Mona has a worse set).  His best damage eats his HP, and that Lu stat means he hates ailments.  He is generally considered to be the weakest party member in-game, although he's still quite usable.  DL-wise, he doesn't get any non-low ailment guns, and he's fairly average in terms of durability and speed.  He may be a Middle; High Counter + his decent evasion means about half of physicals and a quarter of magic will miss him, meaning he can get off shock from his gun, followed by a Brave Blade for the kill.  It helps he has the highest number of rounds on his guns in general (along with Panther).  Not a high one by any means, and a good accurate fire spell will wreck him.  Poor Inari <3.


Queen
"No holds barred!"
HP: 487
SP: 284
St: 49
Ma: 50 (53)
En: 46
Ag: 50
Lu: 37

Accuracy Modifier: 100%
Durability: 99% (198% with Rakukaja)
Evasion: 10%
Speed: 108%
Ailment Resistance: -15%

Melee Weapon: Sabazios (280 attack, 90 accuracy, critical rate up 30%)
Ranged Weapon (24 ammo): Orochi SP (320 attack, 76 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts shock 30%)
Protector: Haten Robe (241 defense, 18 evasion, Ma+3)
Accessory: Black Tights (Allows school principals to see the user's naughty parts, instantly charming them; once charmed, the school principals will automatically arrive to battle with the user, initiatively using Ugly Old Man Assault, inflicting every status in the game on every opponent at a perfect probability, piercing any immunities)

PRIESTESS Anat
Null: Nuclear
Resist: Curse
Weak: Psychic

Attack: 160 physical damage, ST, 15% critical rate
Gun: 27 gun damage per hit, ST, 10% critical rate, inflicts shock 30% (162 per full clip, 89% chance of shock)

Atomic Flare (48 SP): 386 nuclear damage, ST
Freidyne (12 SP): 340 nuclear damage, ST
Flash Bomb (19% MHP): 136 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate, inflicts dizzy 20%
Diarahan (18 SP): 100% MHP healing, ST
Rakukaja (8 SP): Lowers damage received by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Defense Master (P): Casts Rakukaja at the start of battle (lowers damage received by 50% for 3 turns, Self)
Nuclear Boost (P): Raises nuclear damage by 25%
Nuclear Amp (P): Raises nuclear damage by 50%
----------
Energy Shower (8 SP): Cures mental (mind) ailments, MT
Dekunda (10 SP): Dispels all -kunda debuff effects, MT
Nuclear Break (15 SP): Negates innate nuclear resistance for 3 turns, MT; this cannot be dispelled, but will not negate the effects of Nuke Wall
Mafreidyne (22 SP): 340 nuclear damage, MT
Mediarahan (30 SP): 100% MHP healing, MT
Marakukaja (24 SP): Lowers damage received by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Evade Psy (P): Triples evasion against psychic attacks

Comments: Not only does most of the internet fanboy over Queen, but I think the developers had a hard-on for her too.  She's got a reputation for being decent at everything, which is pretty apt.  She is the most durable member of the cast, with Defense Master and Diarahan, and has the best SP total in the game (not like that's saying much).  She loves that her weakness is so rare that she can go without the evasion boost most of the time (she'll want to drop Flash Bomb if she needs another skill slot).  Having game-best speed of the non-Joker cast is pretty awesome, and she can boost it by a lot if she needs to.  Her damage is decent, especially with a severe damage skill (although it is very costly); the shock infliction from her gun helps save SP via technical nuclear damage, which means she has a bit more long-term damage than at first glance.  She has no real weaknesses other than the ailment vulnerability.  A definite Heavy.


Oracle
"Whoooaaa... That was awesome!"
HP: 354
SP: 256
St: 48
Ma: 52 (55)
En: 48
Ag: 52
Lu: 47

Accuracy Modifier: 130%
Durability: 70%
Evasion: 25%
Speed: 112%
Ailment Resistance: 15%

Melee Weapon: None
Ranged Weapon: None
Protector: Haten Robe (241 defense, 18 evasion, Ma+3)
Accessory: Headphones (Allows user to wiretap the White House and subsequently leak information on Stupid Russiagate)

HERMIT Prometheus

Attack: 0 physical damage
Gun: 0 gun damage

Analysis (P): Allows confirmation of shadow affinities if they have already been struck by an attack
Subrecover HP EX (P): Restores 20% MHP to backup party members after each battle
Subrecover SP EX (P): Restores 3% MSP to backup party members after each battle
Treasure Skimmer (P): Chance to guarantee 100% acquisition of a shadow's rare item when battle begins; must successfully contact and demand an item to acquire it
Moral Support (P): Chance upon Joker's turn to cast Mediarama (170 HP healing, MT), Matarukaja, Marakukaja, Masukukaja, or a MT version of Heat Riser
Mementos Scan (P): Chance to fully map a floor of Mementos upon entering the floor
Position Hack (P): Chance to instantly initiate a Hold Up when a battle begins; this works whether the attack was an ambush (either enemy or party advantage) or regular battle
Active Support (P): Chance upon Joker's turn to either cast a MT version of Charge and Concentrate or restore 10% MSP, MT
Treasure Reboot (P): Chance after finishing a battle to instantly respawn every breakable treasure item in a dungeon
Emergency Shift (P): Chance to switch current party with backups when 2 or more allies are dead
Final Guard (P): Nullifies the first fatal attack for the entire party once per battle

Comments: Hacks the game.  She cheats by having more than 8 skills at once, and has an additional 5 stat points extra than she should have.  Her stats are also very good besides the poor HP - above average on En and Ag and Lu is great.  Too bad she requires Joker to actually do anything, so...uh...


BEAUTY THIEF Noir
"I AM NO LONGER YOUR SUBSERVIENT PUPPET!"
HP: 466
SP: 270
St: 53
Ma: 49 (57)
En: 44
Ag: 45
Lu: 41

Accuracy Modifier: 95%
Durability: 91% (182% with Heat Riser)
Evasion: 10% (20% with Heat Riser)
Speed: 98%
Ailment Resistance: 0%

Melee Weapon: Fleurs du Mal (308 attack, 86 accuracy, Ma+5, inflicts dizzy 30%)
Ranged Weapon (12 ammo): Yagrush (330 attack, 80 accuracy, 1 round, inflicts shock 20%)
Protector: Haten Robe (241 defense, 18 evasion, Ma+3)
Accessory: Dotted Tights (Wearing these protects the user from those occasional leaks and accidents)

EMPRESS Astarte
Null: Psychic
Resist: Ice
Weak: Nuclear

Attack: 186 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate, inflicts dizzy 30%
Gun: 419 gun damage, MT, 10% critical rate, inflicts shock 20%

Psiodyne (12 SP): 360 psychic damage, ST
Heat Riser (30 SP): Lowers damage received, raises damage dealt, and raises accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Tetrakarn (36 SP): Reflects the next physical or gun attack back at the attacker, ST; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats
Makarakarn (36 SP): Reflects the next magical attack back at the attacker, ST; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats
Snipe (P): Raises gun damage by 25%
Cripple (P): Raises gun damage by 50%
Psy Boost (P): Raises psychic damage by 25%
Psy Amp (P): Raises psychic damage by 50%
----------
One Shot Kill (17% MHP): 405 gun damage, ST, 40% critical rate
Triple Down (16% MHP): 147 gun damage, MT, 5% critical rate, hits 3 times
Mapsiodyne (22 SP): 360 psychic damage, MT
Amrita Drop (4 SP): Cures all non-special ailments, ST
Amrita Shower (12 SP): Cures all non-special ailments, MT
Psy Break (15 SP): Negates innate psychic resistance for 3 turns, MT; this cannot be dispelled, but will not negate the effects of Psy Wall
Fast Heal (P): Reduces duration of ailments to 1 turn
Evade Nuke (P): Triples evasion against nuclear attacks

Comments: Noir is kind of weird.  She's the only cast member who hates the gun transition.  In-game, she is the best gun user due to the passives that affect not only her gun skills, but also her regular gun attack.  In the DL, due to her having only 1 round in her clip, she can't use it for status like the rest of the cast.  On the other hand, she has very good, consistent damage with her gun, unlike the rest of the cast.  Her resistances and weaknesses are mostly a wash, although the ice resistance is nice.  What probably helps her the most is her combination of Tetrakarn and Makarakarn, allowing her to block whatever damage she's most threatened by.  Backed up by Heat Riser, she can deal some pretty solid damage, and her durability is pretty respectable afterwards.  Her stats are very much close to average, so Heat Riser is a huge boost for her.  She suffers from having not enough SP, like a lot of the cast, and her best damage, a One-Shot Kill critical, eats up her HP.  A very weird combatant, but probably a Middle.  I could see her wrecking Light, but there are Middles, particularly healers, that give her problems.


Averages!

HP: 462 (with Oracle)/478 (without Oracle)
----------
553 - Skull - 115% HP
492 - Joker - 103% HP
487 - Queen - 101% HP
478 - Fox - 100% HP
466 - Noir - 97% HP
449 - Panther - 94% HP
423 - Mona - 88% HP
(354 - Oracle)

*% HP assumes no Oracle in the averages

SP: 257 (with or without Oracle)
----------
264 - Joker
214 - Skull
272 - Mona
272 - Panther
225 - Fox
284 - Queen
(256 - Oracle)
270 - Noir

En: 47 (with or without Oracle)
----------
61 - Skull - 29% damage reduction
50 - Fox - 6% damage reduction
49 - Joker - 4% damage reduction
(48 - Oracle)
46 - Queen - 2% increased damage
44 - Noir - 6% increased damage
42 - Panther - 10% increased damage
37 - Mona - 20% increased damage

Ag: 47 (with Oracle)/46 (without Oracle)
----------
(52 - Oracle)
51 - Joker - 110% speed
50 - Queen - 108% speed
49 - Mona - 106% speed
46 - Fox - 100% speed
45 - Noir - 98% speed
43 - Panther - 94% speed
42 - Skull - 92% speed

*% speed assumes no Oracle in the averages

Lu: 41 (with or without Oracle)
----------
48 - Mona
47 - Panther
(47 - Oracle)
41 - Noir
41 - Skull
38 - Joker
37 - Queen
35 - Fox

Damage: 272 (with Oracle)/311 (without Oracle)
----------
419 - Noir - Gun
386 - Queen - Atomic Flare
380 - Panther - Agidyne
345 - Mona - Garudyne
325 - Joker - Makougaon
170 - Skull - Ziodyne
157 - Fox - Attack
(0 - Oracle)

*As per usual, I don't include HP draining skills in the average.  Since most of the cast cannot heal, it feels like it hastens their deaths.  While it does follow in-game, where you can spam them, that's because of healing and other factors that are not relevant in the DL.  It's the same standard I hold other games to.  For an average using the physical skills, see below.  For this, I take the damage multiplied by the inverse HP cost of the skill, to illustrate the risk involved.     

Damage: 313 (with Oracle)/359 (without Oracle)
----------
419 - Noir - Gun
386 - Queen - Atomic Flare
380 - Panther - Agidyne
345 - Mona - Garudyne
332 - Skull - God's Hand
330 - Fox - Brave Blade
325 - Joker - Makougaon
(0 - Oracle)


------------------------------
Temporary PC Stats
------------------------------
Crow is taken at level 55, along with the rest of the cast.  This is the level at which you're probably nearly done with the 6th palace.  You could argue a little lower (not really below 50) or a little higher (not higher than 60 in practice), but this seems a reasonable compromise.  Note that there are several skills he gains outside of these levels.  He doesn't really care about more than 2 of them (Megidolaon and Debilitate, although the latter is more important).  He would love for you to take the stats at level 50 but allow Debilitate, as that would make him look pretty awesome compared to the rest of the cast (since half the cast is missing their -dynes by level 50).  For reference, he learns the following skills at the following levels:
- Attack Master (50)
- Samarecarm (54)
- Mahamaon (59)
- Mamudoon (62)
- Megidolaon (67)
- Debilitate (70)

Damage, evasion, ailment accuracy, and all other numbers dependent on a specific target are tested on a level 52 target; while this does inflate the numbers a little, this is a fair compromise, as the level of the average shadow in the dungeon is level 50 or less.  The highest level shadow is level 55, and it's a rare encounter (and incidentally, a higher level than the boss of the palace).  How to take Joker is a little rough, since, as noted in the main PC information, his stats change based on his persona.  There are 5 personas that reach level 55 with their final skill: Bugs, Byakko, Koumokuten, Dakini, Narcissus.  As such, I'm not including Joker's non-HP or SP stats in here.  Interestingly enough, if you average these 5 persona stats at level 55 together, they end up surprisingly similar to the average stats of the cast not including him.  Hence, you can probably just consider him to be the average of each stat (including damage, although it's possible to get him an amp skill, so he may have slightly better -dyne damage).

In terms of optional equipment, Crow only has 1 other weapon he might want, a gun, the Sirius SP (250 attack, 88 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts brainwash 10%).  He uses male protectors, and most of the valuable ones listed in the next post are available to him with the exception of the following:
- Demon's Jacket
- Karna's Robe
- Fireman Happi
- Soul Vest
- Life Jacket



Crow
"Well, because I'm a psychic, of course."
HP: 429
SP: 239
St: 39
Ma: 35
En: 34
Ag: 35
Lu: 29

Accuracy Modifier: 100%
Durability: 104%
Evasion: 5%
Speed: 108%
Ailment Resistance: 0%

Melee Weapon: Quasar Sabre (222 attack, 92 accuracy)
Ranged Weapon (24 ammo): Golden Beam (266 attack, 88 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts despair 20%)
Protector: Brave Waistcoat (192 defense, 12 evasion, fear susceptibility reduced by 50%)
Accessory: Black Necktie (Dapper AF)

JUSTICE Robin Hood
Resist: Bless
Weak: Curse

Attack: 118 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Gun: 25 gun damage per hit, ST, 10% critical rate, inflicts despair 20%  (150 per full clip, 74% chance of despair)

Megidola (24 SP): 151 almighty damage, MT
Eigaon (12 SP): 151 curse damage, ST
Kougaon (12 SP): 151 bless damage, ST
Megaton Raid (16% MHP): 198 physical damage, ST, 10% critical rate
Hamaon (15 SP): Inflicts bless-based insta-death 30%, ST
Mudoon (15 SP): Inflicts curse-based insta-death 30%, ST
Attack Master (P): Casts Takukaja at the start of battle (raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, Self) [Note that this effect is not included in the above damages; increase them by 50% for the effect of this skill]
Fortify Spirit (P): Reduces ailment susceptibility by 50%
----------
Samarecarm (18 SP): 100% MHP revival, ST

----------Level 55+ Skills----------
Mahamaon (34 SP): Inflicts bless-based insta-death 20%, MT
Mamudoon (34 SP): Inflicts curse-based insta-death 20%, MT
Megidolaon (38 SP): 180 almighty damage, MT
Debilitate (30 SP): Raises damage received, lowers damage dealt, and lowers accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, ST

Comments: Crow is kind of odd.  He gets bless, curse, and almighty, but no boosts or amps (and missed the MT versions of Kougaon and Eigaon).  His stats are decent overall, very balanced, although this has the problem of him not really standing out anywhere.  DL-wise, he really wants you to give him Debilitate at level 55.  What makes him good DL-wise is Attack Master - 2-shotting with his magic or physicals for 3 turns - and his gun attack.  He's a bit like Panther, except faster and more durable, but less damage overall and no healing (but a better version of Tarunda if you allow it).  He kind of wishes the insta-death skills were as good in P5 as in P4.  Still, better than Naoto, as he can do something else besides insta-death, and his gun attack is basically insta-death anyway.  Probably makes Heavy.


Averages!
*None of these averages include Oracle

HP: 409
----------
SP: 223
----------
St: 37
----------
Ma: 35
----------
En: 34
----------
Ag: 34
----------
Lu: 30
----------
Damage: 164
----------
Damage (including physicals): 176
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 02:54:37 AM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

OblivionKnight

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2017, 11:46:36 PM »
I. Alternate Weapons
As a general rule, the primary determinant of melee weapon damage is the weapon attack stat.  For every 2 attack, damage changes by 1.  For ranged weapons, weapon attack power is the only determinant of damage (except for the passives Snipe and Cripple), and each gun type has different damage breakpoints.  In general, for every 20 ranged attack power, damage changes by 1 (for Noir, this is roughly a doubled effect).  Most characters won't be using their weapons for primary damage, usually just for ailments or stat boosts.  Default set-up weapons are highlighted below in bold.


Joker
Melee Weapons
Paradise Lost: 290 attack, 92 accuracy, reduces curse damage recevied by 30%
Pro Parrying Dagger: 252 attack, 96 accuracy, En+2, Ag+2
Frenzy Dagger: 232 attack, 92 accuracy, inflicts rage 30%
Arsene's Cane: 130 attack, 92 accuracy, inflicts random ailment 10%
Igniter: 90 attack, 92 accuracy, inflicts burn 10%
Blizz Dagger: 56 attack, 90 accuracy, inflicts freeze 10%

Ranged Weapons
Tyrant Pistol: 390 attack, 98 accuracy, 8 rounds, Ma+10
Nataraja: 360 attack, 94 accuracy, 8 rounds, All Stats+5
R.I. Pistol II: 340 attack, 98 accuracy, 8 rounds, inflicts sleep 30%
Cocytus SP: 310 attack, 86 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts freeze 20%
Gravity Gun: 272 attack, 94 accuacy, 8 rounds, inflicts despair 20%
Riot Police SP: 164 attack, 86 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts confuse 10%
Makaronov SP: 150 attack, 86 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts fear 10%


Skull
Melee Weapons
Super Megido Rod: 282 attack, 94 accuracy
Ruyi Jingu Bang: 256 attack, 88 accuracy, Auto-Tarukaja
Mjolnir: 254 attack, 88 accuracy, Elec Boost
Stun Baton: 220 attack, 92 accuracy, critical rate up 10%
Big Sleep Stick: 200 attack, 88 accuracy, inflicts sleep 20%
Heavy Steel Pipe: 68 attack, 86 accuracy, inflicts confuse 10%

Ranged Weapons
Megido Fire: 380 attack, 98 accuracy, 3 rounds, critical rate up 10%
Kiraihou II: 344 attack, 86 accuracy, 4 rounds, inflicts shock 20%
Calamity Gun SP: 324 attack, 76 accuracy, 3 rounds, inflicts random ailment 10%
Orso Nero SP: 278 attack, 76 accuracy, 3 rounds, inflicts sleep 10%
Fury: 248 attack, 94 hit, 4 rounds, inflicts rage 10%
Fury SP: 242 attack, 76 accuracy, 3 rounds, inflicts rage 20%
Big Sleep SP: 216 attack, 84 accuracy, 3 rounds, inflicts despair 10%
Nock Volley SP: 198 attack, 84 accuracy, 3 rounds, inflicts fear 10%
Pumpkin Bomb: 160 attack, 82 accuracy, 3 rounds, inflicts burn 20%
Fireworks SP: 154 attack, 84 accuracy, 3 rounds, inflicts burn 10%

Mona
Melee Weapons
Claiomh Solais: 280 attack, 90 accuracy, SP+50
God Saber: 242 attack, 96 accuracy, Ma+3
Panic Sword: 224 attack, 94 accuracy, inflicts confuse 10%
Cosmic Sword: 160 attack, 90 accuracy, inflicts shock 20%
Resting Sword: 130 attack, 90 accuracy, inflicts sleep 20%

Ranged Weapons
Utopia: 326 attack, 100 accuracy, 5 rounds, inflicts forget 20%
Pirate Killer SP: 322 attack, 80 accuracy, 4 rounds, inflicts despair 20%
Sudarshana: 308 attack, 98 accuracy, 5 rounds inflicts random ailment 10%
Northern Light SP: 190 attack, 84 accuracy, 4 rounds, inflicts freeze 10%
Catnap: 168 attack, 90 accuracy, 5 rounds, inflicts sleep 20%
Shrike SP: 144 attack, 80 accuracy, 4 rounds, inflicts confuse 10%


Panther
Melee Weapons
Hard Branch: 274 attack, 96 accuracy, inflicts sleep 10%
Naraka Whip: 252 attack, 90 accuracy, inflicts freeze 30%
Spike Whip: 246 attack, 90 accuracy, inflicts shock 10%
Snow Queen's Whip: 210 attack, 90 accuracy, Auto-Sukukaja
Masquerade Ribbon: 172 attack, 88 accuracy, inflicts dizzy 10%
Mirage Whip: 158 attack, 90 accuracy, inflicts forget 20%
Burn Whip: 110 attack, 90 accuracy, inflicts burn 10%
Skin Ripper: 70 attack, 88 accuracy, inflicts fear 10%

Ranged Weapons
Wild Hunt: 386 attack, 84 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts despair 20%
Phantom Killer: 322 attac, 88 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts sleep 10%
Blitz MGSP: 192 attack, 76 accuracy, 8 rounds, inflicts shock 10%
Trooper SP: 140 attack, 68 accuracy, 8 rounds, inflicts dizzy 10%
Brain Shot: 140 attack, 84 accuracy, 12 rounds, inflicts brainwash 20%


Fox
Melee Weapons
Usumidori: 292 attack, 88 accuracy, inflicts fear 30%
Red Demon Blade: 280 attack, 90 accuracy, inflicts despair 20%
Master's Iai Katana: 258 attack, 94 accuracy, inflicts forget 10%
Masamune: 244 attack, 96 accuracy, inflicts sleep 10%
Orochito: 210 attack, 96 accuracy, inflicts dizzy 10%
Senryou Takusha: 160 attack, 90 accuracy, St+5

Ranged Weapons
Heaven's Gate: 378 attack, 88 accuracy, 12 rounds, Ag+10
Kuzuryo Gouhou: 300 attack, 88 accuracy, 12 rounds, inflicts random ailment 10%
Blaze Assault SP: 250 attack, 80 accuracy, 8 rounds, inflicts freeze 10%
Rebel Rifle SP: 196 attack, 80 accuracy, 8 rounds, inflicts rage 10%
Black Assault SP: 152 attack, 80 accuracy, 8 rounds, inflicts fear 10%
AR-M4 SP: 150 attack, 74 accuracy, 8 rounds, inflicts dizzy 10%
GI Type SP: 144 attack, 88 accuracy, 12 rounds, inflicts shock 10%


Queen
Melee Weapons
Sabazios: 280 attack, 90 accuracy, critical rate up 30%
Vajra: 272 attack, 90 accuracy, inflicts random ailment 30%
Flash Punch: 218 attack, 94 accuracy, inflicts dizzy 10%
Mach Punch: 178 attack, 88 accuracy, Ag+3
Clenched Fist: 142 attack, 90 accuracy, St+3

Ranged Weapons
Judge of the Dead: 380 attack, 92 accuracy, 6 rounds, All Stats+10
Twilight SP: 340 attack, 80 accuracy. 6 rounds, inflicts dizzy 20%
Orochi SP: 320 attack, 76 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts shock 30%
Baptism SP: 302 attack, 80 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts brainwash 10%
Evil Roulette II: 260 attack, 96 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts random ailment 10%
Wildborn SP: 224 attack, 80 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts forget 10%
Peacemaker SP: 178 attack, 84 accuracy, 6 rounds, inflicts fear 10%
Mirrirmina: 200 attack, 92 accuracy, 6 rounds, Ma+5


Noir
Melee Weapons
Fleurs du Mal: 308 attack, 86 accuracy, Ma+5, inflicts dizzy 30%
Amazon Axe: 284 attack, 92 accuracy, St+3
Ice Axe: 226 attack, 84 accuracy, inflicts freeze 20%
Death Contract: 140 attack, 86 accuracy, inflicts despair 10%

Ranged Weapons
Yagrush: 330 attack, 80 accuracy, 1 round, inflicts shock 20%
Pandemonium SP: 310 attack, 72 accuracy, 1 round, inflicts confuse 20%
Magma Bullet SP: 290 attack, 68 accuracy, 1 round, inflicts burn 30%
Magma Bullet: 284 attack, 84 accuracy, 1 round, inflicts burn 10%
Eraser SP: 244 attack, 68 accuracy, 1 round, inflicts forget 20%
Town Burner SP: 236 attack, 76 accuracy, 1 round, inflicts burn 20%
Scorcher SP: 194 attack, 72 accuracy, 1 round, inflicts confuse 20%
Powzooka: 140 attack, 89 accuracy, 1 round, inflicts confuse 20%



II. Alternate Protectors
As a general rule, the primary determinant of defense is the En stat.  Defense is universal, so dropping defense will increase all damage recevied.  In general, every 12 defense at endgame is worth about 1 point of damage reduction, while every 1 En is worth about 4 points of damage reduction.  Default set-up protectors are highlighted below in bold.


Unisex Protectors
Soul Vest: 230 defense, 12 evasion, SP+20
Life Jacket: 179 defense, 9 evasion, HP+20
Egoist Shirt: 167 defense, 9 evasion, brainwash susceptibility reduced by 50%
Ghillie Vest: 149 defense, 8 evasion, raises evasion against physical attacks by 10%
Dieting Wrap: 137 defense, 8 evasion, hunger susceptibility reduced by 50%
Hope Shirt: 112 defense, 8 evasion, despair susceptibility reduced by 50%
Papal Robes: 100 defense, 7 evasion, raises evasion against bless (non-Hama) attacks by 10%
Reckless Vest: 89 defense, 7 evasion, fear susceptibility reduced by 50%
Army Vest: 77 defense, 6 evasion, St+1
Austere Haori: 65 defense, 6 evasion, dizzy susceptibility reduced by 50%
Lynx Camo Vest: 36 defense, 5 evasion, sleep susceptbility reduced by 50%

Male Protectors
Demon's Jacket: 266 defense, 14 evasion, St+3
Karna's Robe: 238 defense, 14 evasion, reduces physical damage received by 10%
Fireman Happi: 224 defense, 13 evasion, burn susceptibility reduced by 50%
Brave Waistcoat: 192 defense, 12 evasion, fear susceptibility reduced by 50%
Fluted Guard: 172 defense, 11 evasion, Ag+3
Retention Vest: 128 defense, 10 evasion, forget susceptibility reduced by 50%
Plate Vest: 114 defense, 9 evasion, reduces nuclear damage received by 10%
Saint's Tunic: 102 defense, 9 evasion, rage susceptibility reduced by 50%
Cosmic Undies: 74 defense, 8 evasion, confuse susceptibility reduced by 50%
Burntech: 40 defense, 7 evasion, freeze susceptibility reduced by 50%

Female Protectors
Haten Robe: 241 defense, 18 evasion, Ma+3
Titanium Set: 216 defense, 17 evasion, hunger susceptibility reduced by 50%
Mizuha Doumaru: 203 defense, 15 evasion, reduces fire damage received by 20%
Kotodama Cape: 187 defense, 14 evasion, brainwash susceptibility reduced by 50%
Yama Dress: 174 defense, 14 evasion, raises evasion against curse (non-Mudo) attacks by 20%
Maillot: 144 defense, 13 evasion, Ag+3
Spiked Bra: 129 defense, 12 evasion, Counter (10% chance to reflect physical or gun attack back at attacker; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats)
Dogwatch Kimono: 117 defense, 12 evasion, sleep susceptibility reduced by 50%
Elysian Robe: 104 defense, 11 evasion, reduces curse damage received by 10%
Glaring Cape: 93 defense, 11 evasion, dizzy susceptibility reduced by 50%
Power Camisole: 81 defense, 10 evasion, St+2
Lady's Dress: 68 defense, 10 evasion, confuse susceptibility reduced by 50%

Pussy Protectors
Nekomata Coat: 251 defense, 23 evasion, raises evasion against psychic attacks by 20%
Insomnia Collar: 211 defense, 21 evasion, sleep susceptibility reduced by 50%
Killer Collar: 193 defense, 20 evasion, Auto-Tarukaja
Morose Collar: 180 defense, 20 evasion, rage susceptibility reduced by 50%
Measure Collar: 161 defense, 19 evasion, Lu+5
Rubber Scarf: 147 defense, 19 evasion, shock susceptibility reduced by 50%
Memorial Collar: 132 defense, 18 evasion, forget susceptibility reduced by 50%
Sparkly Collar: 118 defense, 18 evasion, raises evasion against curse (non-Mudo) attacks by 10%
Id Collar: 105 defense, 17 evasion, brainwash susceptibility reduced by 50%
Water Crown: 93 defense, 17 evasion, burn susceptibility reduced by 50%
Camo Collar: 80 defense, 16 evasion, raises evasion against physical attacks by 10%
E-Collar: 67 defense, 16 evasion, Ma+4
Breeze Scar: 57 defense, 15 evasion, Ag+2
Cat Sweater: 34 defense, 15 evasion, freeze susceptibility reduced by 50%


III. Alternate Personas
Personas are listed in descending level order, with highest level listed first (levels used for personas in parentheses).  As a reminder, persona level is taken at the level they gain their last skill.  Joker can change personas during his turn as a free action, although any action (attack, gun, guard, item, or persona skill) taken with a persona equipped will force him to use that one until his next turn, when he can switch again.  DLC personas are marked; due to their early-midgame focus, many of them don't have the stats to really compete endgame.  I have only included 2 of these personas, but can include more if requested (and may very well do as such, just for curiosity).
 Additionally, I have included the New Game+ persona for reference.    Again, remember that all persona stats are randomized, so these can be varied, since Joker does have a degree of control over the random stat growth of each persona.   


FOOL Satanael (99 - New Game+ Persona Only)
St: 67
Ma: 63
En: 59
Ag: 58
Lu: 57

Drain: Curse
Null: Bless
Resist: Physical, Gun, Fire, Ice, Wind, Electricity, Psychic, Nuclear

Maeigaon (22 SP): 247 curse damage, MT
Megidolaon (38 SP): 224 almighty damage, MT
Riot Gun (24% MHP): 317 gun damage, MT, 10% critical rate
Survival Trick (P): Survive insta-death attack with 1 HP once per battle
Cosmic Flare (54 SP): 265 nuclear damage, MT
Heat Riser (30 SP): Lowers damage received, raises damage dealt, and raises accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Unshaken Will (P): Null mental (mind) ailments
Victory Cry (P): Fully restores HP and SP after battle

JUDGEMENT Messiah Picaro (96 - DLC)
St: 59
Ma: 60
En: 58
Ag: 59
Lu: 59

Repel: Bless
Resist: Fire, Ice, Wind, Electricity, Psychic, Nuclear
Weak: Curse

Agneyastra (24% MHP): 168 physical damage, MT, 15% critical rate, hits 1-3 times
Megidolaon (38 SP): 267 almighty damage, MT
Oratorio (38 SP): 100% MHP healing and dispels all -kunda debuff effects, MT
Insta-Heal (P): Heals from ailments immediately upon next turn (this is an effective form of ailment immunity, since Joker will never experience the effects of an ailment upon his turn; the only way to capitalize on inflicting an ailment is through a multi-action or through multiple enemies in battle acting after the ailment is inflicted; insta-death due to curse or bless-based abilities is unaffected by this skill; additionally, this does not apply to despair, only to ailments that wear off naturally, so how you interpret the efficacy of this skill is up to you)
Enduring Soul (P): Survive fatal attack with fully restored HP once per battle
Life Aid (P): Restores 8% MHP and MSP after each battle
Firm Stance (P): Reduces all damage received by 50%, but negates all evasion
Almighty Boost (P): Raises almighty damage by 25%

JUSTICE Metatron (95 - Requires MAX Confidant)
St: 56
Ma: 63
En: 65
Ag: 60
Lu: 48

Repel: Wind
Drain: Psychic, Nuclear
Weak: Electric, Curse

Sword Dance (21% MHP): 306 physical damage, ST, 15% critical rate
Mahamaon (34 SP): Inflicts bless-based insta-death 40%, MT
Makougaon (22 SP): 338 bless damage, MT
Megidolaon (38 SP): 224 almighty damage, MT
Hama Boost (P): Raises Hama accuracy by 50%
Concentrate (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next magic attack by 2.5, Self
Bless Amp (P): Raises bless damage by 50%
Divine Judgement (48 SP): Deals bless-based damage equal to 50% of CHP, ST

TOWER Mada (91 - Requires MAX Confidant)
St: 57
Ma: 53
En: 62
Ag: 59
Lu: 49

Drain: Fire
Null: Nuclear
Resist: Psychic
Weak: Ice

Agidyne (12 SP): 290 fire damage, ST, inflicts burn 30%
Burn Boost (P): Raises burn infliction rate for fire skills by 50%
Fire Amp (P): Raises fire damage by 50%
Unshaken Will (P): Null mental (mind) ailments
Blazing Hell (54 SP): 308 fire damage, MT, inflicts burn 45%
Amrita Shower (12 SP): Cures all non-special ailments, MT
Enduring Soul (P): Survive fatal attack with fully restored HP once per battle
Spell Master (P): SP cost of skills reduced by 50% (this is not factored in to the above costs)

FOOL Vishnu (90 - Requires MAX Confidant)
St: 60
Ma: 54
En: 55
Ag: 61
Lu: 47

Drain: Ice
Null: Bless, Curse
Weak: Fire

Ali Dance (P): Reduces accuracy of incoming attacks by 50%
Magarudyne (20 SP): 293 wind damage, MT
Megidolaon (38 SP): 211 almighty damage, MT
Vacuum Wave (48 SP): 307 wind damage, MT
Charge (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next physical or gun attack by 2.5, Self
Repel Fire (P): Reflects fire damage received back at the attacker; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats; overrides innate weaknesses and non-drain resistances
Wind Amp (P): Raises wind damage by 50%
Riot Gun (24% MHP): 284 gun damage, MT, 5% critical rate

DEVIL Beelzebub (89 - Requires MAX Confidant)
St: 58
Ma: 64
En: 58
Ag: 59
Lu: 35

Drain: Fire
Repel: Curse
Weak: Bless

Devil Smile (12 SP): Inflicts fear 50%, MT
Maeigaon (22 SP): 342 curse damage, MT
Mamudoon (34 SP): Inflicts curse-based insta-death 20%, MT
Curse Amp (P): Raises curse damage by 50%
Concentrate (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next magic attack by 2.5, Self
Demonic Decree (48 SP): Deals curse-based damage equal to 50% of CHP, ST
Repel Ice (P): Reflects ice damage received back at the attacker; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats; overrides innate weaknesses and non-drain resistances
Megidolaon (38 SP): 229 almighty damage, MT

JUDGEMENT Shiva (88)
St: 55
Ma: 54
En: 53
Ag: 53
Lu: 38 +18 stat points

Drain: Psychic
Repel: Electric
Null: Ice, Bless, Curse
Weak: Nuclear

Enduring Soul (P): Survive fatal attack with fully restored HP once per battle
Maziodyne (22 SP): xx electric damage, MT, inflicts shock x%
Psycho Force (48 SP): xxx psychic damage, ST
Riot Gun (24% MHP): xxx gun damage, MT, 5% critical rate
Megidolaon (38 SP): xxx almighty damage, MT
Auto-Mataru (P): Casts Matarukaja at the start of battle (raised damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, MT) [Note that this effect is not included in the damages; increase them by 50% for the effect of this skill]
Psycho Blast (54 SP): xxx psychic damage, ST

JUDGEMENT Messiah (87 - DLC)
St: 52
Ma: 53
En: 52
Ag: 55
Lu: 56

Repel: Bless
Resist: Fire, Ice, Wind, Electricity, Psychic, Nuclear
Weak: Curse

God's Hand (25% MHP): 403 physical damage, ST, 15% critical rate
Megidolaon (38 SP): 251 almighty damage, MT
Oratorio (38 SP): 100% MHP healing and dispels all -kunda debuff effects, MT
Regenerate 3 (P): Restores 6% MHP per turn
Enduring Soul (P): Survive fatal attack with fully restored HP once per battle
Invigorate 3 (P): Restores 7 SP per turn
Absorb Phys (P): Drains physical damage received; overrides innate weaknesses and non-drain resistances
Almighty Boost (P): Raises almighty damage by 25%

EMPEROR Odin (87 - Requires MAX Confidant)
St: 57
Ma: 55
En: 56
Ag: 56
Lu: 44

Drain: Wind
Repel: Bless, Curse
Null: Electricity

Matarukaja (24 SP): Raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Myriad Slashes (20% MHP): 140 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate, hits 2-3 times
Thunder Reign (48 SP): 308 electric damage, ST, inflicts shock 15%
Wild Thunder (54 SP): 308 electric damage, MT, inflicts shock 15%
Concentrate (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next magic attack by 2.5, Self
Fast Heal (P): Reduces duration of ailments to 1 turn
Elec Amp (P): Raises electric damage by 50%

TOWER Yoshitsune (86)
St: 63
Ma: 50
En: 49
Ag: 60
Lu: 43

Repel: Electricity, Bless
Null: Physical
Resist: Fire

Brave Blade (24% MHP): 415 physical damage, ST, 15% critical rate
Charge (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next physical or gun attack by 2.5, Self
Ziodyne (12 SP): 271 electric damage, ST, inflicts shock 10%
Pressing Stance (P): Reduces accuracy of all attacks by 67% when ambushed, MT
Fast Heal (P): Reduces duration of ailments to 1 turn
Elec Amp (P): Raises electric damage by 50%
Hassou Tobi (25% MHP): 102 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate, hits 8 times

EMPRESS Mother Harlot (85 - Requires MAX Confidant)
St: 59
Ma: 49
En: 48
Ag: 51
Lu: 55

Repel: Electricity
Null: Curse
Weak: Bless

Mabufudyne (22 SP): 270 ice damage, MT, inflicts freeze 15%
Mamudoon (34 SP): Inflicts curse-based insta-death 40%, MT
Mudo Boost (P): Raises Mudo accuracy by 50%
Ice Age (54 SP): 293 ice damage, MT, inflicts freeze 20%
Ice Amp (P): Raises ice damage by 50%
Null Bless (P): Nulls bless damage received; overrides innate weaknesses and non-drain/non-repel resistances
Debilitate (30 SP): Raises damage received, lowers damage dealt, and lowers accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, ST

DEATH Alice (84 - Requires MAX Confidant)
St: 45
Ma: 64
En: 42
Ag: 61
Lu: 47

Repel: Curse
Resist: Psychic, Nuclear
Weak: Bless

Dekunda (10 SP): Dispels all -kunda debuff effects, MT
Mamudoon (34 SP): Inflicts curse-based insta-death 35%, MT
Mudo Boost (P): Raises Mudo accuracy by 50%
Die For Me! (44 SP): Inflicts curse-based insta-death 50%, MT
Megidolaon (38 SP): 229 almighty damage, MT
Concentrate (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next magic attack by 2.5, Self
Survival Trick (P): Survive insta-death attack with 1 HP once per battle

HIEROPHANT Kohryu (82 - Requires MAX Confidant)
St: 47
Ma: 54
En: 57
Ag: 55
Lu: 40

Repel: Electric
Null: Nuclear, Bless
Weak: Psychic

Mapsiodyne (22 SP): 293 psychic damage, MT
Mediarahan (30 SP): 100% MHP healing, MT
Psycho Force (48 SP): 307 psychic damage, ST
Life Aid (P): Restores 8% MHP and MSP after each battle
Concentrate (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next magic attack by 2.5, Self
Psy Amp (P): Raises psychic damage by 50%
Spell Master (P): SP cost of skills reduced by 50% (this is not factored in to the above costs)

MAGICIAN Futsunushi (82 - Requires MAX Confidant)
St: 57
Ma: 50
En: 52
Ag: 53
Lu: 41

Resist: Physical
Weak: Nuclear

Ali Dance (P): Reduces accuracy of incoming attacks by 50%
Matarukaja (24 SP): Raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Myriad Slashes (20% MHP): 140 physical damage, ST, 10% critical rate, hits 2-3 times
Charge (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next physical or gun attack by 2.5, Self
Regenerate 3 (P): Restores 6% MHP per turn
Apt Pupil (P): Raises critical hit rate by 50%
Firm Stance (P): Reduces all damage received by 50%, but negates all evasion (note that Firm Stance overrides Ali Dance)
Brave Blade (24% MHP): 375 physical damage, ST, 25% critical rate

SUN Asura (81 - Requires MAX Confidant)
St: 56
Ma: 52
En: 53
Ag: 54
Lu: 38

Repel: Nuclear
Null: Fire
Weak: Psychic

Atomic Flare (48 SP): 209 nuclear damage, ST
Mahamaon (34 SP): Inflicts bless-bassed insta-death 20%, MT
Marakukaja (24 SP): Lowers damage received by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Auto-Mataru (P): Casts Matarukaja at the start of battle (raised damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, MT) [Note that this effect is not included in the damages; increase them by 50% for the effect of this skill]
Mafreidyne (22 SP): 181 nuclear damage, MT
High Counter (P): 20% chance to reflect physical or gun attack
Unshaken Will (P): Null mental (mind) ailments

EMPEROR Baal (80)
St: 54
Ma: 52
En: 49
Ag: 48
Lu: 44

Drain: Wind
Resist: Fire, Bless, Curse

Magarudyne (20 SP): 179 wind damage, MT
Matarukaja (24 SP): Raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Revolution (5 SP): Raises critical rate for the entire field by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Panta Rhei (42 SP): 213 wind damage, ST
Tetraja (24 SP): Nullifies the next bless or curse attack, MT
Charge (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next physical or gun attack by 2.5, Self
Ayamur (25% MHP): 150 physical damage, ST, 15% critical rate, hits 3 times

JUSTICE Throne (76)
St: 46
Ma: 51
En: 49
Ag: 51
Lu: 38

Drain: Fire
Null: Bless
Resist: Nuclear
Weak: Curse

Makougaon (22 SP): 325 bless damage, MT
Mahamaon (34 SP): Inflicts bless-based insta-death 30%, MT
Hama Boost (P): Raises Hama accuracy by 50%
Invigorate 3 (P): Restores 7 SP per turn
Bless Amp (P): Raises bless damage by 50%
Evade Curse (P): Triples evasion against curse attacks (non-Mudo)
Auto-Maraku (P): Casts Marakukaja at the start of battle (lowers damage received by 50% for 3 turns, MT)

DEATH Thanatos Picaro (74 - DLC)
St: 48
Ma: 50
En: 48
Ag: 44
Lu: 39

Repel: Curse
Resist: Physical
Weak: Bless

Door to Hades (32 SP): 188 almighty damage, MT, inflicts almighty-based insta-death 40%
Maeigaon (22 SP): 180 curse damage, MT
Mamudoon (34 SP): Inflicts curse-based insta-death 30%, MT
Mudo Boost (P): Raises Mudo accuracy by 50%
One Shot Kill (17% MHP): 193 gun damage, ST, 35% critical rate
Adverse Resolve (P): Raises critical hit rate by 50% when ambushed
Enduring Soul (P): Survive fatal attack with fully restored HP once per battle
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 06:15:07 PM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2017, 11:46:49 PM »
Bosses in P5 are split into mid-bosses and major bosses.  This topic will be focusing on the major bosses, with one exception.  Mid-bosses are generally powered up versions of basic shadows, with a few small exceptions, and have their own music to indicate that, while they are bigger threats than the normal shadows, they aren't too special.  The major bosses are the palace masters, the ones with plot backing.  Caveat - all but 2 of the bosses listed here are technically the person's shadow.  This is a lot like P4, where you have shadows that are another side of a person.  In P4, they join you and become a persona.  In P5, you beat them, which causes a change in their respective person.  It's very debatable as to whether the shadow is the person - it's stated in-game that they represent the person's twisted desires, but it's also stated that a person does not know what goes on within their palace (and is somewhat different than their shadow in that regard, who knows everything), so it's a bit up in the air. 

That out of the way, I'll be presenting 9 bosses (some with a variety of forms) here.  All major bosses and 1 minor boss (you know who this one is if you've finished the game).  I'll be listing PC average stats for the boss, which will include damage and HP, along with additional notes if relevant.  I am generally assuming that the player is semi-competent, meaning they will use -kajas and -kundas when they can, will realize to keep along boosts and amps for elemental skills, etc., but I am not assuming complete mastery of the system, maximum money midway through the game, etc.  As such, the damage average will include -kunda and -kaja use (primarily Rakunda and Tarukaja), as well as Charge and Concentrate when available.  Damages are taken against average defenses, and do not include Tarunda or Rakukaja.  A reminder again that damage taken, as listed for bosses, is a factor of En as well as level; the numbers listed here considers both those factors.

A few special notes about bosses to keep in mind:
- All boss stats taken on Normal Mode.  For reference, there are 5 difficulty modes, Safety, Easy, Normal, Hard, and Challenge.  On normal, everything is unmodified, base stats, which makes the most sense to use.  Higher modes of difficulty decrease experience and money gain while increasing enemy offense and damage mitigation, with easier modes doing the opposite
- All bosses are immune to critical hits.  This does not include the minions summoned by The Great Gazoo below, but otherwise, you cannot critical bosses in Persona 5
- All bosses are immune to ailments.  This includes almighty ailments, but does not include the aforementioned -kundas and -kajas
- All bosses, with a couple exceptions, act in party order.  This means that the turn order goes Joker --> 2nd party member --> 3rd party member --> 4th party member --> boss each round.  Boss Ag means nothing in terms of action order
- All bosses, with a couple exceptions, cannot evade attacks.  I am not 100% sure on this, but watching videos and through my own testing, despite the high Ag, I have never seen them evade.  The ones who appear able to evade are the ones who don't seem to act in party order, so I wonder if this is just a coding mistake or intended.  Additionally, those that can buff their accuracy and evasion also seem able to evade.  If interested, I can provide actual evasion, although it will get pretty nuts (based on the numbers, Voltron should evade 50% of attacks sent his way, and he clearly doesn't)
- All bosses have SP, but unique skills (e.g., not something your PCs can also use), do not use SP



Master of the Castle of Lust: 3 Girls, 1 Cup
"You goddamn, no-good, shitty brats!  Haven't you been taught not to point at people!?  Huh!?"
Level 11
HP: 2500
SP: 1500
Defense: 10% reduction
Acts twice per turn

Battle Triggers:
- After 3 Girls, 1 Cup is reduced to 75% MHP or less, he will use Libido Boost on one of his actions next turn, and will use it every turn thereafter that he is reduced below 75% MHP
- After using Libido Boost for the first time, the Trophy of Obsession will become a valid target
- The Trophy of Obsession has 900 HP, and reduces damage by 5%.  It cannot act
- Once the Trophy of Obsession is destroyed, 3 Girls, 1 Cup will be placed into a Hold Up and automatically be struck with an All Out Attack (175 almighty damage)
- After 3 Girls, 1 Cup's next turn, you will be given the option to send a party member to steal his treasure.  This cannot be Joker or Panther, and must be either Skull or Mona.  The party member is unable to act in battle during this time
- During the time a party member is sent to steal his treasure, you must attack and deal damage to 3 Girls, 1 Cup at least one time each round; failure to do so will result in the party member failing to do so, returning to the battlefield and requiring you to start the process all over again
- After the 3rd turn of the party member that was sent to steal the treasure, 3 Girls, 1 Cup will be debuffed; he now acts 1 time per turn, skips 50% of his turns, and receives 4x damage from all attacks; his damage remains the same, although it seems his skillset is limited to just Golden Knife

Skillset
Volleyball Assault: 16 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate, hits 1-4 times
Tongue Whip: 30 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate
Golden Knife: 40 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
3 Girls, 1 Cup Stares at...: Charge for Lick; this is always used one the second part of his double-act, with Lick being used on the first part of his double-act next turn; note that, as long as Panther is alive, he will only use this on her
Lick: 80 physical damage, ST, 10% critical rate
Lustful Slurp: Raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, Self

Libido Boost: 100% missing HP healing, Self; usable only when the Trophy of Obsession is alive

"Time for my killshot when I was active and rocking it!": Uses up both actions on his turn, and charges for Gold Medal Spike on his next turn; this is used 100% of the time right after sending someone to steal his treasure
Gold Medal Spike: 100 almighty damage, MT; uses up both actions for his turn; used the turn after the charge up, only after sending someone to steal his treasure

Average PC Level: 11
Average PC HP: 161
Average PC Damage: 100
*Level 11 may be considered high.  Anywhere from level 8 to 15 or so I've seen (depending on difficulty and how many trips people take to the palace to clear it), so level 11 I considered a compromise, as it's also the boss's level.  If you want to consider a lower level, subtract about 4 HP, 5 damage per level.  For boss damages, each level should add about 5 damage to most of his attacks

Comments: Well then...as with many bosses here, how you interpret their battle triggers makes a difference.  3 Girls, 1 Cup is very straightforward.  It takes about 2 rounds to damage him to the point of making the Trophy of Obsession targettable, and then another 2-3 to kill it.  After that, a minimum of 3 rounds to steal his treasure before he gets nerfed.  Again, it depends a lot on how you interpret those triggers, but that's probably giving him about 7 turns (14 actions) to kill before getting nerfed.  That's...kind of crazy.  Especially if you take him at a lower level.  4x Golden Knife just barely missed the 4-shot (2-round), but buffing that with Lustful Slurp and getting lucky with Volleyball Assault puts him into easy kill range within 2 rounds.  That's pretty decent for a starting boss if you scale the trigger interpretation like that.  If you take it literally, you'll never get the debuffed version of him to trigger.  Could vary from a good Heavy to Godlike boss, depending. 


Master of the Museum of Vanity: Goldmember
"All you good-for-nothings...!  Barging into my museum and doing whatever the hell you want...  Those who have the connections make the rules; those who don't, follow them"
Level 18
HP: 1800
SP: 1800
Defense: 5% reduction

Battle Triggers:
- At the start of the battle, Goldmember is composed of 2 Painter's Eyes, 1 Painter's Nose, and 1 Painter's Mouth (stats noted above skillset)
- Unlike other bosses, Goldmember's body parts do not act after your party; I don't know completely how the order works (it's not based on Ag), as it seems to vary a bit based on my own testing and videos I've watched; approximately, the order goes Joker --> 2 body parts --> 2 party members --> 1 body part --> last party member --> last body part.  The body parts that act appear to be random, as far as I can tell.  Note that I've seen several variations of this, so the action order may very well be randomized after Joker, akin to P3
- Every body part can use every skill listed below, with the exception of Bite (usable by the Mouth only, for obvious reasons), Dust Flurry (which, as far as I have seen, is usable only by the Nose), and Madara-megido, which is for Goldmember proper only (and the only skill he can use)
- After destroying the body parts, Goldmember proper will be placed into a Hold Up and automatically be struck with an All Out Attack (200 almighty damage)
- Goldmember's next turn will be used to cast Madara-megido
- The turn after casting Madara-megido, Goldmember will revive all the body parts at 75% MHP; they will not get to act the turn they are revived
- Each time all the body parts are destroyed, Goldemember will follow the same sequence of All Out Attack --> Madara-megido --> Revive body parts
- Body parts are revived at 50% MHP each time they are revived after the first revival
- After the second revival, you will be given the option to send a party member to paint the body parts in black paint
- After the 3rd turn of the party member that was sent to paint the body parts has passed, all surviving body parts will have all their affinities overwritten as weaknesses for 3 turns
- Killing Goldmember proper is required to win the battle

Painter's Eye x2 (Level 18, 300 HP, 280 SP, 20% damage reduction, Drain: Fire/Ice/Electric/Wind)
Painter's Mouth (Level 18, 300 HP, 280 SP, 20% damage reduction, Drain: Physical/Gun)
Painter's Nose (Level 18, 300 HP, 280 SP, 20% damage reduction, Drain: Psychic/Nuclear/Bless/Curse)

Skillset
Flame Dance: 80 fire damage, ST, inflicts burn 30%
Silent Snowscape: 80 ice damage, ST, inflicts freeze 30%
Maelstrom: 80 wind damage, ST
Thunderclap: 80 electric damage, ST, inflicts shock 30%
Tarukaja (8 SP): Raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Rakunda (8 SP): Raises damage received by 50% for 3 turns, ST

Bite: 60 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate; usable only by the Mouth

"The artist's nose is twitching...": Charges for Dust Flurry on the Nose's next turn; appears to be usable only by the Nose
Dust Flurry: 80 wind damage, MT; appears to be usable only by the Nose

The Artist's Grace: Sets all affinities to weaknesses for 3 turns, ST; overrides innate resistances, cannot be dispelled; usable after body parts are revived by Goldemember once
Restore: Revives a defeated body part with 25% MHP; usable after body parts are revived by Goldmember once

Madara-megido: 10 almighty damage, MT, ignores target defense, set damage; only usable by Goldmember himself after destroying the body parts

Average PC Level: 19
Average PC HP: 221
Average PC Damage: 135

Comments: I really love Goldemember as a boss.  It's a neat battle overall - I just wish each part had unique skills, and that some unlocked as parts died, etc.  Would make it cooler in-game.  DL-wise...well, assuming you allow the multiple parts, he's pretty good.  The durability as Goldmember is good enough to survive to the 1st revival, when The Artist's Grace and Restore unlock.  You need multiple damage types (or an almighty equivalent), and they need to be MT to really have a shot here.  All 4 parts attacking is a one-round; with The Artist's Grace and Rakunda, it's about double that damage, allowing it to put pressure on even bosses.  If you can blitz Goldmember after the first phase, you may be ok, but then Restore spam drains resources and taxes those without good MT damage.  Translates really well, as long as you allow the multiple parts.  Godlike most likely.   


Master of the Bank of Gluttony: Baxter Stockman
"Don't make me laugh. I feed on dumbshits like you. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that a bright future lies ahead for you!"
Level 25
HP: 1200
SP: 600
Defense: 15% reduction
Acts twice per turn

Battle Triggers:
- The battle starts with Baxter Stockman only; after his HP are depleted, he summons Piggytron, who replaces him on the battlefield (stats listed below)
- All current HP, SP, stat buffs, debuffs, and ailments persist after the transition to the Piggytron phase of the battle
- After being dealt 25% MHP damage, Piggytron will start charging for March of the Piggy
- During the charge for March of the Piggy, Baxter Stockman becomes targettable; if you deal 300 damage to him during the charge-up phase, March of the Piggy will be cancelled
- If March of the Piggy is cancelled, Piggytron will be able to take a normal action during his turn
- Upon the 3rd charge for March of the Piggy, the second charge for March of the Piggy (if you dealt enough damage to Baxter Stockman to cancel March of the Piggy the first time), or upon reaching the 25% MHP threshold, you will gain the ability to distract Baxter Stockman with an expensive item (one that sells for ~3000 yen in-game)
- Using an item to distract Baxter Stockman will cancel the charge for March of the Piggy, as well as cause Piggytron to skip his next 2 turns

Baxter Stockman Skillset
Attack: 70 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Eiga (8 SP):  60 curse damage, ST
Maeiga (16 SP): 60 curse damage, MT
Evil Touch (5 SP): Inflicts fear 80%, ST

Piggytron (Level 26, 2500 HP, 1800 SP, 25% damage reduction, acts once per turn)
Ocular Vulcan: 150 gun damage, ST, 10% critical rate
Metabolic Wave: 120 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate
Missile Party: 90 fire damage, MT
Fear Gas: Inflicts fear 50%, MT
"Go, Piggytron! Super VIP Fooorm!": Charges for March of the Piggy; March of the Piggy will use up Piggytron's next turn for additional charging, with March of the Piggy activating on the turn after that (effectively, 2 turns of charging for the attack); used 100% of the time after losing 25% MHP, and again at each 25% MHP marker lost (so at 75%, 50%, and 25% MHP), as well as at will after losing his first 25% MHP
March of the Piggy: 450 almighty damage, MT

Average PC Level: 28
Average PC HP: 275
Average PC Damage: 200

Comments: A let-down from the past 2 bosses, not even the game considers the first form a true boss (he gets Keeper of Lust as his battle theme).  The first form's fear infliction saves it DL-wise, although both forms are kind of poor in-game.  Piggytron is durable, but acting once per turn is not a recipe for success.  March of the Piggy is probably the worst charge attack in the game, as 300 damage is easy to inflict with 2 characters, 1 if you throw buffs and debuffs in there.  The item distraction thing is cool, but it comes so late in the fight, and is a waste due the low damage needed to down Baxter Stockman during the charge phase.  Arguably, people may not allow Piggytron (although it's a clear form-chain, mechanically), which makes Baxter pretty bad.  Ranges from a Middle boss of sorts to Heavy.  Terribly fails in-game, probably better in the DL due to fear for the first form, and the durability of the second form.   


Master of the Pyramid of Wrath: Riddle Me This
"Nnnngh...! How dare you...! Children that defy their mothers should... DIE!"
Level 34
HP: 11000
SP: 1000
Defense: 10% reduction
Weak: Physical (no 1 More, but takes 5x damage)
Acts twice per turn

Battle Triggers:
- This fight is split into 2 parts.  The first part is a pure plot fight that ends after Riddle Me This uses a specific attack on the party.  After this, the second part of the battle begins with everyone's HP and SP restored, and all downed party members revived; this second part of the battle is what this stat topic entry details
- Riddle Me This begins the battle immune to all physical attacks, and is only vulnerable to gun and magic attacks
- At the start of the first round in battle, you will be given the option to send a party member to fire a ballista.  This cannot be Joker, but can be any other party member.  The party member is unable to act in battle during this time
- After the 2nd turn of the party member that was sent to fire the ballista, Riddle Me This will be struck by a 400 damage almighty attack, placed into a Hold Up, and automatically be struck with an All Out Attack (300 almighty damage)
- After the ballista is fired, Riddle Me This will be placed in melee range for 2 turns
- On her 3rd turn after being struck by the ballista, Riddle Me This will once again become physical immune and take her turn that round as normal
- After Riddle Me This recovers from the ballista strike, you are able to send a party member again to trigger the ballista again, continuing the cycle until she is defeated; note that if you send the same party member that most recently fired the ballista, it will take an additional turn to fire (3 turns vs. 2)
 
Skillset
Slam: 120 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Wing Blast: 80 wind damage, MT
Sphinx Swipe: 90 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate, inflicts dizzy 50%
Dreadful Scream: Inflicts despair 50%, MT

Rapid Ascent: Provides total immunity for Riddle Me This for 2 turns, during which time Riddle Me This cannot act; Riddle Me This will execute Sphinx Dive 2 turns after using Rapid Ascent, consuming her entire turn; used 100% of the time after being reduced to 25% MHP
Sphinx Dive: 400 almighty damage, MT, 5% critical rate

Average PC Level: 35
Average PC HP: 312
Average PC Damage: 250
*So...damage vs. the boss is a little odd; since you're restricted from physical attacks, you're stuck with your heaviest damage dealers (Joker, Skull, and Fox) using their crappy magic (Skull and Fox - Joker can switch to a magic persona at least, or one with a good gun skill with a boost) or even crappier guns for damage.  In practice, the boss damage average is about 125, since your biggest damage is unavailable except for scripted events.  When physicals are back in the picture, the damage average vs. the boss is something like 450

Comments: The most unrankable boss, probably, from a plot perspective, and probably headachey from an interpretation perspective too.  Still kind of interesting.  In-game, you don't technically need to use the ballista to win, but it takes a while to tear through 11000 HP, especially when your biggest damage is out.  In the DL...not sure how you want to take the ballista thing.  If you take it literally, you have to kill her with magic or gun attacks.  Now, guns are "kind of" physical in-game, but they are considered, for lack of a better term, "ranged physical" (probably the best way to put it).  So I could see long-range physicals hitting her, although I wouldn't give them the damage bonus.  So you need a ton of durability and damage in that case to tear through her, and you also need to be able to weather despair and dizzy.  Her damage is ok, although very wallable.  If you assume the ballista hits her every 2 turns (meaning she gets 2 turns of physical immunity, 2 turns of no action, then cycles back), then she's...still ok.  Despair ruins PCs, with 4 shots of it before she gets downed, so she's at worst a Heavy.  If you take the former interpretation, Godlike.  The sheer durability makes it work, although she's very wallable.


Master of the Spaceport of Greed: The Great Gazoo
"Overcome failure at any cost, even if it means betraying others."
Level 43
HP: 200
SP: 100
Defense: 15% more damage taken
Acts twice per turn

Battle Triggers:
- This fight must be completed within 30 minutes of real time; generally, 15-20 minutes should be enough time to complete the battle
- The Great Gazoo starts the battle by initiatively summoning 4 Corporobo MDL-WKR minions
- If, upon The Great Gazoo's turn, fewer than 4 minions are on the field, he will use the first part of his double-act to cast Work Order to summon replacements
- The Great Gazoo summons minions in the order they are listed below; once he runs out of 1 type of minion, he will summon the next type of minion to fill in the field until he hits the max of 4 out at once
- If all minions currently deployed are destroyed prior to The Great Gazoo's turn, he will interrupt the turn order to summon 4 more minions; the turn order will continue as normal after this
- The Corporobo MDL-ED is summoned once all other minions are defeated
- As long as a minion is on the field, The Great Gazoo is untargettable
- Unlike other bosses, The Great Gazoo's minions do not act after your party (although The Great Gazoo does); I have no idea how the action order is determined as, like with Goldmember's body parts, it appears to be somewhat randomized after Joker's turn
- Once all minions are defeated, The Great Gazoo will be come vulnerable, and will skip his turns until defeated

The Great Gazoo Skillset
Work Order: Summons replacement minions up to a maximum of 4 on the battlefield at a time
Sacrifice Order: Orders a single minion to explode upon it's next turn, dealing 200 MT almighty damage
Rakunda (8 SP): Raises damage received by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Tarunda (8 SP): Lowers damage by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Dekaja (10 SP): Dispels all -kaja buff effects, MT
Famine's Breath: Inflicts hunger 90%, ST
Famine's Scream: Inflicts hunger 50%, MT

Corporobo MDL-WKR x10 (Level 43, 250 HP, 80 SP, 0% damage reduction, Resist: Physical/Gun/Ice/Electric/Psychic/Nuclear/Bless/Curse, Weak: Fire/Wind)
Triple Down: 40 gun damage, MT, 5% critical rate, hits 3 times
Assault Dive: 80 physical damage, ST, 10% critical rate
Recarmdra: 100% MHP healing, MT, reduces user to 1 HP

Corporobo MDL-CH x5 (Level 43, 300 HP, 80 SP, 0% damage reduction, Resist: Physical/Gun/Fire/Wind/Electric/Nuclear/Bless/Curse, Weak: Ice/Psychic)
Masukunda (24 SP): Lowers accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Matarunda (24 SP): Lowers damage by 50% for 3 turns, MT

Corporobo MDL-AM x4 (Level 43, 350 HP, 80 SP, 5% damage reduction, Resist: Physical/Gun/Fire/Ice/Wind/Psychic/Bless/Curse, Weak: Electric/Nuclear)
Agidyne (12 SP): 100 fire damage, ST, inflicts burn 10%
Bufudyne (12 SP): 100 ice damage, ST, inflicts freeze 10%
Ziodyne (12 SP): 100 electric damage, ST, inflicts shock 10%
Garudyne (10 SP): 100 wind damage, ST
Psiodyne (12 SP): 100 psychic damage, ST
Freidyne (12 SP): 100 nuclear damage, ST
Kougaon (12 SP): 100 bless damage, ST
Eigaon (12 SP): 100 curse damage, ST

Corporobo MDL-DM x3 (Level 43, 500 HP, 80 SP, 5% damage reduction, Resist: Physical/Gun/Fire/Ice/Electric/Psychic/Nuclear/Curse, Weak: Wind/Bless)
Famine's Breath: Inflicts hunger 70%, ST

Corporobo MDL-GM x2 (Level 43, 550 HP, 80 SP, 10% damage reduction, Resist: Physical/Gun/Fire/Ice/Wind/Electric/Nuclear/Bless, Weak: Psychic/Curse)
Megaton Raid: 130 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Matarunda (24 SP): Lowers damage by 50% for 3 turns, MT

Corporobo MDL-ED (Level 43, 2800 HP, 999 SP, 10% damage reduction)
Executive Punch: 210 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Makarakarn (36 SP): Reflects the next magical attack back at the attacker, ST; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats
Big Bang Order: Charges for Big Bang Challenge on his next turn
Big Bang Challenge: 450 almighty damage, MT; if target is inflicted with the hunger ailment, this will instead heal the target and remove the ailment

Average PC Level: 44
Average PC HP: 375
Average PC Damage: 300

Comments: Why am I so crazy?  This boss was painful to get all the stats for :(  Actually kind of cool in concept and pretty decent in practice, just a DL nightmare.  Underneath all that text is a generally ingenious boss fight.  This is a fight that teaches you to use Baton Pass and switch party members out, due to the variety of weaknesses.  It's actually very easy to keep every minion from acting until the MDL-ED comes out.  One thing to note is that Tarunda and hunger stack for a ridiculous nerf to damage.  This makes it very easy to get multiple sacrifice orders up, and the damage really adds up then.  The fight could be a bit better synergy-wise if they didn't get summoned in order - the MDL-DM, for instance, only uses Famine's Breath, so they needed to be interspersed with the others.  If you lose the tempo in this fight, you will get punished, especially on harder modes.  Now...DL-wise, the only way you can interpret this boss is if you let him summon, so that's what I'll assume.  This fight, even more than Goldmember, forces you to have good MT damage that's either an almighty equivalent or a ton of variety due to the resistances.  You'll get worn down fast if you're not careful, and if The Great Gazoo himself gets turns, you'll get nerfed until you get piled on.  Taken literally, a pretty good Godlike.  If you take him how most people take summoning bosses in the DL...Puny.  But hey, at least he can join the denizens of Virgil and Dist in the Badass Chair Club (TM). 


Master of the Casino of Jealousy: Pyramid Head
"As long as you win, it doesn't matter what methods you use! Don't you all think the same!? You're controlling the hearts of others to achieve your own goals!"
Level 53
HP: 8000
SP: 2000
Defense: 10% reduction

Battle Triggers:
- This fight is split into 2 parts.  The first part is a pure plot fight that ends after a few scripted actions are taken, although you can still take damage and use up resources.  It is impossible to win this fight, as the boss has 65535 HP; this second part of the battle is what this stat topic entry details
- All current HP, SP, stat buffs, debuffs, and ailments persist after the transition to the 2nd phase of the battle
 
Skillset
Severing Slash: 280 physical damage, ST, 10% critical rate
Gatling Gun: 50 gun damage, MT, 5% critical rate, hits 1-5 times
Hundred Slaps: 240 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate, inflicts dizzy 50%
Megidola (24 SP): 185 almighty damage, MT
Dekaja (10 SP): Dispels all -kaja buff effects, MT
Nocturnal Flash (12 SP): Inflicts dizzy 60%, MT
Tarukaja (8 SP): Raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, ST

Roulette Time: Starts a roulette game where you have to bet HP, SP, attack, defense, agility, or money (chosen either randomly or by the boss, it's impossible to tell which); between the use of Roulette Time and Pyramid Head's next turn, all offensive action taken against her will result in a Penalty counter; upon Pyramid Head's next turn, you choose to either bet safely or risky, as well as what colour pocket the ball will land in; effects of each type of bet are listed below; Pyramid Head skips their turn following the use of Roulette Time, when the effect activates; unlocks at 75% MHP
- Bet HP: Drains 100 (low bet) or 150 (high bet) per ally from the boss on a win; effect is reversed on a loss
- Bet SP: Drains 100 (low bet) or 150 (high bet) per ally from the boss on a win; effect is reversed on a loss
- Bet Attack: Casts Tarukaja (low bet) or Matarukaja (high bet) on the winner, and the reverse on the loser
- Bet Defense: Casts Rakukaja (low bet) or Marakukaja (high bet) on the winner, and the reverse on the loser
- Bet Agility: Casts Sukukaja (low bet) or Masukukaja (high bet) on the winner, and the reverse on the loser
- Bet Money: Gain 6000 (low bet) or 9000 (high bet) yen on a win; effect is reversed on a loss
Penalty: Reduces CHP to 1, ST; cannot be resisted or evaded; used automatically as a counter to any offensive action (including debuffs) taken against Pyramid Head while Roulette Time is active

Heat Riser (30 SP): Lowers damage received, raises damage dealt, and raises accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, ST; unlocks at 50% MHP

Desperation: Multiplies all damage dealt by 2.5 and increases damage taken by 50% for 3 turns, Self; cannot be dispelled; stacks with other -kaja and -kunda effects; unlocks at 25% MHP
Berserker Dance: 450 almighty damage, MT; unlocks at 25% MHP

Average PC Level: 55
Average PC HP: 410
Average PC Damage: 340
*This level could be considered a little high.  Anything 50-55 is pretty reasonable.  You can subtract about 5 HP, 10 damage per level from the PCs, while adding about 10 damage to the boss attacks per level

Comments: Hey, first boss without a ton of gimmicks to write about!  That's going to continue for the remainder.  Anyway, a straightforward boss that is pretty respectable in all regards.  That HP is pretty good, and the damage is consistent and adds an effective ailment.  With dizzy and Heat Riser in play, Pyramid Head dodges about 75% of attacks sent her way.  Even with just one, that's about 50% evasion, which is nasty.  Tarukaja helps threaten one-shots on the frail with Severing Slash, and Roulette Time is a very good staller.  It depends on how you interpret it and what you allow, I suppose.  At worst, it's a counter stance.  At best, it can be spammed to eventually land a nasty effect (like draining all their resources, or maiming their defense).  The Desperation phase is nasty; she will typically use Berserker Dance right after that, and it will slaughter you.  And once Desperation wears off, she will use it again.  It's a literal desperation move, as it weakens her defenses, but she only needs 1 attack to wreck your day.  Probably a Godlike, especially if you take levels a little lower.


Servant of Pride: Black Mask
"You pieces of shit!"
Level 61
HP: 2200
SP: 999
Defense: 0% reduction

Battle Triggers:
- Note that the battle against Black Mask comes right after mid-boss battle where you are unable to save
- This fight is split into 3 parts.  The first part is a battle against 2 buffed shadows, Cu Chulainn and Cerberus.  They each deal about 250 damage and take about 3 turns of attacking to kill.  Both are under the effects of Desperation, casting it on their first turn and whenever it runs out.  The 2nd and 3rd parts are against Black Mask and Psychotic Black Mask.  Buffs and debuffs carry over between the 1st and 2nd part, but not the 2nd and 3rd part.  HP and SP totals carry over between the each part. 
- The stats listed above are for the 2nd part of the fight (Black Mask); stats for the 3rd part of the fight (Psychotic Black Mask) are listed later
- For the Psychotic Black Mask fight, he starts out in a physical phase, and can only use physical skills; upon reaching 50% MHP, he will enter the magic phase, which disables his physical skills; at 33% MHP, he will be able to switch between physical and magical phase skills
- A note about Heat Riser, Dekaja, and Desperation: Psychotic Black Mask doesn't like to cast Heat Riser or Depseration after the first turn (where his preference is for Desperation, although it is not guaranteed he will cast either), although he can; he will generally only use them or Dekaja after a 1 More, with a preference order of Desperation > Heat Riser > Dekaja; whether you allow normal casting beyond the first turn is up to you; note that these appear to be available for use in either phase
 
Black Mask Skillset
Megaton Raid: 150 physical damage, ST, 10% critical rate
Kougaon (12 SP): 170 bless damage, ST
Eigaon (12 SP): 170 curse damage, ST

Charge (15 SP): Multiplies the damage of the next physical or gun attack by 2.5, Self; unlocks at 50% MHP
Megidolaon (38 SP): 180 almighty damage, MT; unlocks at 50% MHP

Psychotic Black Mask (Level 61, 5000 HP, 999 SP, 15% damage reduction, Resist: Bless/Curse, Acts twice per turn)

Psychotic Black Mask Skillset
Physical Phase
Brave Blade: 260 physical damage, ST, 20% critical rate
Negative Pile: 140 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate, inflicts despair 50%
Deathbound: 120 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate, hits 1-2 times
Tetrakarn (36 SP): Reflects the next physical or gun attack back at the attacker, ST; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats

Magical Phase
Eigaon (12 SP): 180 curse damage, ST
Maeiga (16 SP): 110 curse damage, MT
Maragion (16 SP): 110 fire damage, MT, inflicts burn 15%
Megidolaon (38 SP): 200 almighty damage, MT
Makarakarn (36 SP): Reflects the next magical attack back at the attacker, ST; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats

Dekaja (10 SP): Dispels all -kaja buff effects, MT
Heat Riser (30 SP): Lowers damage received, raises damage dealt, and raises accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Desperation: Multiplies all damage dealt by 2.5 and increases damage taken by 50% for 3 turns, Self; cannot be dispelled; stacks with other -kaja and -kunda effects

"Psychotic Black Mask is glaring at Joker...!": Uses up both actions on his turn, and charges for Laevatein on his next turn; this is used 100% of the time right after he has taken enough damage to leave the magical phase
Laevatein: 450 almighty damage, ST; used the turn after the charge up; uses up both actions for his turn; note that in-game, he only uses this on Joker (although a reminder that if Joker dies, it is game over)

Average PC Level: 62
Average PC HP: 427
Average PC Damage: 400
*This could be considered a bit high, arguably; a range of 60-65 for Black Mask and the next boss is reasonable

Comments: The most rankable boss yet!  That first form is pretty pathetic.  As a rule, single-acting SMT bosses do not do well unless they have some special gimmick.  But that second form is pretty awesome.  It's not as durable as other bosses, especially when he starts using Desperation on himself, but that physical phase is nice.  Tetrakarn to mess with fighters, high damage in Brave Blade, and a respectable ailment with damage in Negative Pile.  The magical phase vaguely fails, but Makarakarn is decent utility.  At least it doesn't last long.  Laevatein is ok, although it's not impossible to blow past it.  Still, he should live to do Desperation --> Brave Blade, and that alone wrecks people.  Makes Godlike I'd say.


Master of the Cruiser of Pride: Char Aznable
"A small leak will sink a great ship.  Great nations have fallen to such lenience.  I will not make such incautious mistakes."
Level 63
HP: 10000
SP: 999
Defense: 10% more damage taken
Acts twice per turn

Battle Triggers:
- This fight is split into 3 parts, with 5 different forms; the first part of the fight is a continuous form chain that shares the same HP; he starts at 100% MHP as the Beast of Human Sacrifice; after being reduced below 67% MHP, he will change into the second form, the Wings of Human Sacrifice; once reduced below 33% MHP, he will morph into the third form, the Tomb of Human Sacrifice; buffs, debuffs, and ailments carry over between the 3 forms; once the first 3 forms are defeated, a cutscene will take place, and you will be placed into battle with the 4th form; once the 4th form is defeated, he will transform into the 5th form; buffs and ailments carry over between the 4th and 5th form, but boss debuffs are dispelled between the 2 forms; HP and SP carry over between all 5 forms
- Form transformations occur on the boss's turn once he has reached the appropriate HP thresholds, and end his turn for that round
- The stats listed above refer to the shared stats for the first 3 forms; the stats for the 4th and 5th forms are listed below with their relevant skillsets

Beast of Human Sacrifice (Repel: Physical/Gun)
Attack: 210 physical damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Beast King's Wrath: 210 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate
Dekaja (10 SP): Dispels all -kaja buff effects, MT
Dekunda (10 SP): Dispels all -kunda debuff effects, MT
Wage War (12 SP): Inflicts rage 40%, MT
Tarukaja (8 SP): Raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, ST
Masukunda (24 SP): Lowers accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Makarakarn (36 SP): Reflects the next magical attack back at the attacker, ST; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats

"Beast of Human Sacrifice charges...": Charge for Arm of Destruction; this is always used one the second part of his double-act, with Arm of Destruction being used on the first part of his double-act next turn
Arm of Destruction: 500 almighty damage, MT, inflicts rage 25%; uses up both actions for his turn; used the turn after the charge up

Wings of Human Sacrifice (Resist: Fire/Ice/Wind/Electric/Psychic/Nuclear/Bless/Curse)
Agidyne (12 SP): 120 fire damage, ST, inflicts burn 10%
Bufudyne (12 SP): 120 ice damage, ST, inflicts freeze 10%
Garudyne (10 SP): 120 wind damage, ST
Ziodyne (12 SP): 120 electric damage, ST, inflicts shock 10%
Psiodyne (12 SP): 120 psychic damage, ST
Freidyne (12 SP): 120 nuclear damage, ST
Kougaon (12 SP): 120 bless damage, ST
Eigaon (12 SP): 120 curse damage, ST
Tetrakarn (36 SP): Reflects the next physical or gun attack back at the attacker, ST; damage dealt against the attacker's defensive stats

Royal Wing Beam: 200 almighty damage, MT, inflicts dizzy 25%; Wings of Human Sacrifice uses this skill only after using all 8 elemental skills in order

Tomb of Human Sacrifice (Acts once per turn)
Cannon Fire: 230 almighty damage, ST

Unholy Convergence: Charge for Pyramid Blast; Pyramid Blast will use up Tomb of Human Sacrifice's next turn for additional charging ("Light gathers around the turret...!"), with Pyramid Blast activating on the turn after that (effectively, 2 turns of charging for the attack)
Pyramid Blast: 450 almighty damage, MT, inflicts rage 50%

Sexy Shirtless Char Aznable (Level 63, 4000 HP, 999 SP, 40% damage reduction, acts once per turn)
Tyrant's Fist: 280 physical damage, ST, inflicts fear 50%
Evil Touch (5 SP): Inflicts fear 90%, ST
Megidola (24 SP): 200 almighty damage, MT
Dekaja (10 SP): Dispels all -kaja buff effects, MT
Dekunda (10 SP): Dispels all -kunda debuff effects, MT

Deathbound: 110 physical damage, MT, 10% critical rate, hits 1-2 times; unlocks at 50% MHP
Heat Riser (30 SP): Lowers damage received, raises damage dealt, and raises accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, ST; unlocks at 50% MHP

Even Sexier Red Shirtless Char Aznable (Level 63, 5800 HP, 999 SP, 20% damage reduction, acts twice per turn)
Tyrant's Fist: 280 physical damage, ST, inflicts fear 35%
Deathbound: 110 physical damage, MT, 10% critical rate, hits 1-2 times; unlocks at 50% MHP
Maragidyne (22 SP): 100 fire damage, MT, inflicts burn 10%
Mabufudyne (22 SP): 100 ice damage, MT, inflicts freeze 10%
Magarudyne (20 SP): 100 wind damage, MT
Maziodyne (22 SP): 100 electric damage, MT, inflicts shock 10%
Mapsiodyne (22 SP): 100 psychic damage, MT
Mafreidyne (22 SP): 100 nuclear damage, MT
Makougaon (22 SP): 100 bless damage, MT
Maeigaon (22 SP): 100 curse damage, MT
Megidola (24 SP): 170 almighty damage, MT
Foul Breath (8 SP): Increase ailment susceptibility by 50%, ST
Evil Touch (5 SP): Inflicts fear 70%, ST
Dekaja (10 SP): Dispels all -kaja buff effects, MT
Dekunda (10 SP): Dispels all -kunda debuff effects, MT
Masukunda (24 SP): Lowers accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Matarunda (24 SP): Lowers damage by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Marakunda (24 SP): Raises damage received by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Rebellion (5 SP): Raises critical rate by 50% for 3 turns, ST

Tyrant's Glare: Gains 3 immediate actions for 1 turn; he uses this in a set pattern of Tyrant's Glare --> Sukukaja (replaced with Tarukaja at 25% MHP) --> Masukunda --> Tyrant's Wave; he will automatically use this skill and sequence each time the -kaja buff wears off; unlocks at 50% MHP
Tyrant's Wave: 300 almighty damage, MT; used only in the Tyrant's Glare Sequence
Inferno (48 SP): 150 fire damage, ST, inflicts burn 20%; unlocks at 50% MHP
Diamond Dust (48 SP): 150 ice damage, ST, inflicts freeze 20%; unlocks at 50% MHP
Panta Rhei (42 SP): 150 wind damage, ST; unlocks at 50% MHP
Thunder Reign (48 SP): 150 electric damage, ST, inflicts shock 20%; unlocks at 50% MHP
Psycho Force (48 SP): 150 psychic damage, ST; unlocks at 50% MHP
Atomic Flare (48 SP): 150 nuclear damage, ST; unlocks at 50% MHP
Hamaon (15 SP): Inflicts bless-based insta-death 60%, ST; unlocks at 50% MHP
Mudoon (15 SP): Inflicts curse-based insta-death 60%, ST; unlocks at 50% MHP
Debilitate (30 SP): Raises damage received, lowers damage dealt, and lowers accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, ST; unlocks at 50% MHP
Sukukaja (8 SP): Raises accuracy and evasion by 50% for 3 turns, ST; used only in the Tyrant's Glare Sequence
Tarukaja (8 SP): Raises damage dealt by 50% for 3 turns, ST; used only in the Tyrant's Glare Sequence

Average PC Level: 65
Average PC HP: 440
Average PC Damage: 450
*This could be considered a bit high, arguably; a range of 60-65 is reasonable, although you definitely should take Char Aznable at a higher level than Black Mask, so 62-65 would be a reasonable range

Comments: A RIVER IN A DRY LAND!  Ahem.  So, yeah, big climax boss, and he fits the mold well.  A very heavy resource drain in-game, you are heavily encouraged to switch party members and use items as much as possible.  Very good boss in-game, although too many damn skills - it's very easy to not see half of them in-game.  As for a DL-boss...if you allow the full form-chain (like me), very easy Godlike.  There's just too much variety, walling, durability, and damage there.  If you don't allow the full form-chain, it depends on what you allow.  I would assume everyone allows the first 3 forms to chain, and generally think most would allow the last 2 forms to chain, even if they don't allow the full 5 forms to chain.  The Beast and Wings of Human Sacrifice are excellent wallers.  The Beast is probably Godlike on its own - spam Makarakarn and Wage War, kill PCs.  Against bosses, spam Makarakarn and attack ad infinitum.  It's a beautiful synergy.  The Wings and Tomb are less impressive, but still provide buffering and damage.  The Tomb is kind of fail, especially in-game, but works as a buffer and final kill-shot.  Sexy Shirtless form is all about punching you until you're scared.  Great durability (higher En than any other boss or shadow in the game, besides the optional superbosses and the Reaper) and consistent damage - that's how you take a single-acting boss and make it semi-threatening.  I would assume, if you don't allow form-chaining, most people would go for the last form, which is...good.  Again, he takes the fear game and makes it better, so PCs get screwed.  Against bosses, debuffs and punch things.  At 50% MHP, he gets nasty, mostly because he adds Debilitate into the mix.  Tyrant's Wave...he really wishes the second sequence was Tarukaja --> Marakunda, but oh well.  If you allow full control of Tyrant's Glare, nasty Godlike.  He'll use Tyrant's Glare --> Debilitate --> Tarukaja --> Tyrant's Wave and kill you.  Also, hey, insta-death that doesn't fail.  The elemental stuff is ok - it's meant in-game to give him 1 More actions to put on the pressure, but doesn't add much beyond additional damage types in the DL.  In-game, if you hold him to AI, he doesn't use double Tyrant's Fist (which would be bad for him in-game; ST, reflectable skill when you have a party member guaranteed to have the reflection skill...), and usually does Tyrant's Fist + elemental spell.  Not a 1-shot, but very close.  He only really uses Megidola if no one on the field has a weakness to exploit, which is probably a number of DL foes; Tyrant's Fist + Megidola does 1-shot, albeit barely.  Overall, excellent DL boss with tons of options, and very good in-game boss.  But there's still one more major boss, so let's see how he turns out...


Master of the Prison of Sloth: Voltron
"Rebels who dare defy my rule... You shall perish."
Level 75
HP: 10000
SP: 999
Defense: 30% more damage taken

Battle Triggers:
- This fight is split into 2 parts.  The first part is the battle with the Holy Grail (stats noted above); once the Holy Grail is defeated, a cutscene will take place and the final battle with Voltron proper will commence; HP and SP totals are carry over between forms, although buffs and debuffs do not
- During the Holy Grail fight, you are given the option to send a party member to cut off the supply lines that heal the boss.  This cannot be Joker.  The party member is unable to act in battle during this time
- During the time a party member is sent to cut the supply lines, you must attack and deal damage to the Holy Grail each round
- After the 3rd turn of the party member that was sent to cut the supply lines, the boss's Will of the People skill will be disabled and he will receive 2.5x damage from all attacks
- For the second phase, Voltron starts the battle alone
- In-game, Voltron will summon each of the weapons in order; he will do this each turn until all 4 are summoned
- Upon being summoned, the first action of each weapon will be to use their special sin attack 100% of the time; this also applies to the Gun, Bell, and Book when they are revived for the first time, as they gain additional sin attacks
- The special sin attacks are cannot be dispelled or resisted, but appear to be evadable (somehow...I've seen Distorted Envy evaded, but none of the others, and have no idea how); they are also affected by Insta-Heal
- Rays of Control's damage is evenly divided by each weapon on the field; during the charge-up time, you are able to destroy each weapon to lessen the damage dealt; destroying all weapons will cancel the charge-up and subsequent attack
- Defeating Voltron is required to win the battle

Holy Grail Skillset
Arrow of Light: 360 almighty damage, ST
Light Edge: 250 almighty damage, MT
Diffraction Arrow: 220 almighty damage to 2 random targets, does not focus, inflicts forget 50%

Will of the People: 100% missing HP healing, Self; usable only when the supply lines are intact

Gathering Light: Charges for Eternal Light next turn
Eternal Light: 500 almighty damage, MT; used the turn after the charge up; unlocked at 50% MHP after the supply lines are cut

Voltron (Level 75, 15000 HP, 999 SP, 10% damage reduction, acts once per turn)

Voltron Skillset
Arrow of Light: 250 almighty damage, ST
Dekaja (10 SP): Dispels all -kaja buff effects, MT
Dekunda (10 SP): Dispels all -kunda debuff effects, MT

Manifest Gun: Summons the Gun of Execution; the Gun of Execution is able to act immediately; subsequent uses revive the Gun to 50% MHP; unlocked at 80% MHP
Manifest Bell: Summons the Bell of Declaration; the Bell of Declaration is able to act immediately; subsequent uses revive the Bell to 50% MHP; unlocked at 80% MHP, used after Manifest Gun
Manifest Sword: Summons the Sword of Conviction; the Sword of Conviction is able to act immediately; subsequent uses revive the Sword to 50% MHP; unlocked at 60% MHP, used after Manifest Sword
Manifest Book: Summons the Book of Commandments; the Book of Commandments is able to act immediately; subsequent uses revive the Book to 50% MHP; unlocked at 60% MHP, used after Manifest Book

Divine Apex: Restores all downed weapons to 100% MHP; charges for Rays of Control; during the charge, all weapons and Voltron proper will take the casting turn and the next turn to prepare to use Rays of Control (effectively, 2 turns of charging for the attack); unlocks at 33% MHP
Rays of Control: 1200 almighty damage, MT; uses up all weapons and Voltron's turns for the round

Gun of Execution (Level 75, 1500 HP, 200 SP, 0% damage reduction, acts once per turn, Repel: Gun/Wind)
Distorted Lust: 125 almighty damage, ST, inflicts lust 100% (lust prevents the target from acting 50% of the time and lasts for 1 turn)
Capital Punishment: 165 gun damage, ST, 5% critical rate
Shoot Up: 90 gun damage, MT, 5% critical rate, hits 3 times

Distorted Avarice: 260 almighty damage, inflicts hunger 100%; unlocked after being revived at least once

Bell of Declaration (Level 75, 1500 HP, 200 SP, 0% damage reduction, acts once per turn, Repel: Fire/Psychic)
Distorted Vanity: Sets all affinities to weaknesses for 1 turn, ST; overrides innate resistances
Gospel: 150 almighty damage, ST
Frail Law: Raises damage received by 50% for 3 turns, MT
Tough Law: Lowers damage received by 50% for 3 turns, MT

Distorted Envy: Inflicts jealousy 100% (jealousy causes the target to attack an ally 50% of the time and lasts for 1 turn; unlocked after being revived at least once

Sword of Conviction (Level 75, 1500 HP, 200 SP, 0% damage reduction, acts once per turn, Repel: Physical/Electric)
Distorted Gluttony: Doubles cost of all skills for 1 turn, MT
Sword of Judgement: 175 physical damage, MT, 5% critical rate
Wind Cutter: 250 physical damage, ST, 15% critical rate

Book of Commandments (Level 75, 1500 HP, 200 SP, 0% damage reduction, acts once per turn, Repel: Ice/Nuclear)
Distorted Wrath: 80 almighty damage, ST, inflicts wrath 100% (doubles damage dealt and received and lasts for 1 turn)   
Wrath of God: 110 almighty damage, ST
Agidyne (12 SP): 140 fire damage, ST, inflicts burn 20%
Bufudyne (12 SP): 140 ice damage, inflicts freeze 20%

Distorted Pride: Between the use of Distorted Pride and Voltron's next turn, all offensive action (including debuffs) taken against Voltron or any weapon on the field will result in a Divine Punishment counter; unlocked after being revived at least once
Divine Punishment: 40 SP damage, ST

Average PC Level: 73
Average PC HP: 475
Average PC Damage: 500
*Note that you could take him from level 70-75 pretty reasonably; level 73 is a nice median level

Comments: Worst final boss in the series.  You are reading that correctly - the second form single-acts, and only has 3 skills without the support, being entirely ST.  Much of the skillset doesn't make a ton of sense, either, and has poor synergy given how the boss works.  For instance, Voltron himself cannot make use of the effect of Distorted Vanity, only the Gun, Sword, and Book can, but given the way the mechanics of the fight work, he may never get the chance to take advantage of it.  It's also a little disappointing that they didn't go all out with referencing the previous bosses or making truly unique sin skills.  The way the mechanics work, you could easily punish him heavily for how rigid he is.  Rays of Control is unfortunately terrible - low HP, plus the ability to weaken the attack more by killing parts is nuts.  Panther + Concentrate + Tarukaja + Blazing Hell destroys 3 of the weapons without problem, and you can always Tarunda Voltron to really nerf the damage.  Ugh, there are about 50 different ways they could have designed this boss to make him less lame.  I mean, give him 7 parts, have them automatically activate at 75% MHP; make the main part double-act...argh.  The music isn't even the best either.  Disappointing...but hey, how is he in the DL?  It depends a lot on how harsh you are on the fight mechanics, and if you allow the form-chain.  Assuming you don't allow the form-chain, the first form may be the best.  Decent ailment, solid damage, non-fail charge attack.  You could probably give him 3 turns before he starts taking extra damage, which is probably enough.  Second form at least has some durability.  Arrow of Light 2-shots, barely (take him at level 75, and it 3-shots, albeit close).  He wishes he could summon the weapons in a different order, or that the unique ailments lasted as long as normal ones did.  Or that the ailments were better - if lust were 100% don't act, that would be nice.  At least the gun, the first one summoned, is generally the best one.  Just...probably makes Godlike just by being a boss with damage and durability (especially if you allow the full form-chain, like I do), but that feels so wrong given his terrible in-game performance (even on Merciless, he's kind of awful).  Damn sad ending to a bunch of cool bosses.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 08:27:55 PM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2017, 11:46:58 PM »
Right, so the fun part of this topic for the PCs is using all their options to twink themselves to victory! 

...man, maybe not the best choice of words there...

Ahem, anyway, here is where I detail the main set-ups the different characters may want.  I am not listing everything, just the most likely options and relevant changes to the character averages.  Note that I am assuming the default physical damage average as noted above (that includes the HP-eating physicals for Fox and Skull in the average) for all characters.  This damage average is 359.  If you don't consider that default (which I don't think I do, but others I know do), then use the damage average of 311.  For a quick conversion, add 0.17 (17%) to each damage you'll see noted below.  Not much else to say, so let's dive in!

Joker
So, Joker probably never wants weapons other than the Pro Parrying Dagger and Nataraja.  This is overall +7 to Ag and En, +5 to everything else.  Tyrant's Pistol would be better if it gave a St bonus, and the melee weapons are generally not worth it for ailments.  For ailment options, Joker can buff the gun ailments even more with inheritance of the passive boosts.  These are all on fairly weak personas, so if you don't allow him to inherit, then he'll start with a faster person, and switch on over to the weaker one for the ailments.  He also has access to the spell versions of the ailment skills, again with the boosts if you allow them.  The guns are generally better overall, but he doesn't have every ailment with them. 

Gun Ailment Options
In parentheses would be the boosted version of the ailment accuracy:
- Fear: 47% (63%)
- Confuse: 47% (63%)
- Freeze: 74% (89%)
- Despair: 84% (95%)
- Sleep: 95% (99%)

So...yeah...95% despair is the one that really stands out there.  Poor Alice's Suicide Bomber Teddy Bears are jealous :(.   

For protectors, he has the same options as Skull and Fox below.  Fluted Guard is 6% more speed for 4% less durability, and Life Jacket is 1% more durability.  Dropping Demon's Jacket lowers his physical damage, but this barely ever matters, especially with Nataraja boosting it by a net of +2 St.  So I'll be listing his personas, rather than his protectors, due to the larger role they play in his success in the DL compared to the rest of the cast that can't switch.  I'm using Pro Parrying Dagger, Nataraja, and Demon's Jacket for all of these set-ups below (although, again, who cares about anything but Yoshitsune?).

Persona Set-Ups

Yoshitsune
St: 63 (71)
Ma: 50 (55)
En: 49 (56)
Ag: 60 (67)
Lu: 43 (48)

Accuracy Modifier: 135%
Durability: 122%
Evasion: 40%
Speed: 142%
Ailment Resistance: 15%

Brave Blade (24% MHP): 463 physical damage, 25% critical rate
Ziodyne (12 SP): 298 electric damage, inflicts shock 20%
Hassou Tobi (25% MHP): 134 physical damage, 10% critical rate, hits 8 times (1072 physical damage in total, 2.98x average damage)

Additional Comments: Again, does it matter for any persona besides Yoshitsune?  Just about the best speed (Vishnu is 144% with the same set-up), the best damage, highly accurate, evasive, durable enough to take a hit or 2, and guards against very common elements, including physical.  If you're up for complete twinking and inheritance, he can get good magic damage, but it's nowhere near as good as Hassou Tobi.  Imagine if he got Judge of the Dead instead of Queen...anyway, an obvious Godlike. 


Skull
In terms of weapons, Skull probably never wants to change his gun.  His melee weapon, though, probably should be defaulted to the Ruyi Jingu Bang and the might of Auto-Tarukaja. 

Ruyi Jingu Bang Set-Up
*These all assume otherwise default skills; note that he'll need to equip Elec Boost to keep Ziodyne competitive if he has to use magic damage

Attack: 255 physical damage
Gun: 84 gun damage per hit (336 per full clip)

God's Hand (25% MHP): 664 physical damage (1.84x average damage)
Headbutt (9% MHP): 250 physical damage
Bad Beat (21% MHP): 167 physical damage
Ziodyne (12 SP): 255 electric damage (without Elec Boost, this is 136 base damage, 204 under Tarukaja)
Swift Strike (17% MHP): 129 physical damage, hits 3-4 times
Agneyastra (24% MHP): 252 physical damage, hits 1-3 times

For his big damage combo of Charge --> God's Hand under Tarukaja, it's 1660 damage (4.62x average damage).  With a shock technical, that's 2490 damage (that's 6.93x average damage, using the physical damage average from the PC post).  He doesn't care about any of his other skills, since God's Hand alone is 1.84x average damage.  There's no kill like overkill.

Gun Ailment Options
Damage doesn't matter much, but he can inflict the following ailments (% chance listed as a full clip being unloaded):
- Fear: 28%
- Despair: 28%
- Sleep: 28%
- Random Ailment: 28%
- Burn: 49%
- Rage: 49%

Protector Set-ups
Really, the protector he cares about the most is the Fluted Guard, for its +3 to Ag.  This makes him 98% average speed, and 144% durability.  This is probably a winning trade for him overall.  The only other thing he may want is the Karna's Robe, which reduces physical damage by 10%.  This makes his overall durability...the same, really, at 148%, but buffs his physical durability to 162%.  Worth it in some fights.  His best overall durability, for a final option, is to use the Life Jacket for +20 HP, making his overall durability 149%.  This...probably will never come up, but just in case it does, there you go.  Dropping the Demon's Jacket for any of these protectors drops the damage of God's Hand by 15 points, which is very minimal (and still allows him to overkill with Charge). 

Additional Comments: Yeah, I can see some Godlike hype.  Very straightforward, but he takes Chie's and Kanji's game from P4 and combines it together into 1 really good package.  Two turns to inflict 4.62x average damage off not total fail speed and 148% durability is pretty nice.  His protector options are also all feasible in some way, given his base durability really negating any defense loss.  Granted, he probably only wants the Fluted Guard in practice, but the options are there.  With a very reliable ailment that isn't often guarded against, I can see him maybe edging into Godlike.  Be interesting to see, at least. 


Mona
Mona's weapon choices are basically a little more damage from the God Saber, or +50 SP from the Claiomh Solais.  Both are very viable.  Without the God Saber, Garudyne is 330 damage. 

Gun Ailment Options
Blah, blah, damage:
- Confuse: 35%
- Freeze: 35%
- Random Ailment: 41%
- Sleep: 68%
- Forget: 68%

Still, I'd consider the despair gun his best option. 

Protector Set-ups
The Killer Collar, with Auto-Tarukaja, is an interesting option.  This boosts his damage by 50% for 3 turns, but makes him 67% durability (and drops his psychic evasion...not like that matters).  That gives him 517 damage Garydynes (1.4x average damage) with God Saber, 495 damage with Claiomh Solais (1.37x average damage).  He's really frail, but with speed and evasion, that may be worth it.  Against the really inaccurate, he may want to try some other options, but the durability drop is significant.  With the Measure Collar and its +5 Lu, that drops him to 65% durability, but buffs his evasion to 25% (75% vs. electric), which may give him overall better durability as long as he's fighting evadable attacks.  If he really wants speed, he can take the Breeze Scarf for +2 Ag (110% speed) but drops to 61% durability.  He probably never wants the E-Collar's +4 Ma, since it drops him similarly in durability, while buffing Garduyne to 365 damage (350 with Claiomh Solais).  If he needs damage, he probably goes for the Killer Collar anyway.

Additional Comments: So, no Godlike hype here.  I still think he's something of a weird Middle or Heavy.  The durability and electric weakness is a very unfortunate combination, but evasion and healing help.  Generosity of evasion makes a huge difference - in-game, every damage ability is evadable, and evasion is huge part of mitigating damage, so if you allow more attacks to be evaded, he benefits a lot.  Beyond the frailty, his options are either kill fast with damage via Killer Collar, or heal and shoot gun until despair kicks in.  Masukunda helps keep him alive, especially if you're generous with the evasion.  In a longer, drawn-out fight, he really wants the Claiomh Solais for the SP bonus.  Like I said, he can be spoiled easily, but can spoil others the same.  I'd err on Middle, but he can swing some Heavy fights (and loses to some Lights, hilariously enough). 


Panther
So...Panther never wants to switch weapons, really.  She may want to opt for some different gun ailments on occasion, but generally, she loves the Wild Hunt.  Brainwash is actually decent, since it's a form of charm, but the fatalness and rarely blockedness of despair makes that her best option in general.

Gun Ailment Options
Damage, again, is unimportant:
- Sleep: 47%
- Shock: 57%
- Dizzy: 57%
- Brainwash: 94%

If you're interested, dizzy effectively buffs her to 40% evasion, 60% with Auto-Sukukaja in effect. 

Protector Set-ups
The Maillot, which gives +3 Ag, is something she may want to make use of.  This makes her 100% average speed, and 79% durability...so it's not ideal, cause that's a big durability drop, but has some use.  Life Jacket is a bit more durability, making her 87% durability.  Dropping the Haten Robe for any of these protectors drops the damage of Agidyne by 12 points (and about the same for Blazing Hell).  Like with Skull, this is minimal, and Concentrate still allows her to overkill nastily.  She probably doesn't want to drop that Haten Robe too often, but she has options if it counts.   

Additional Comments: Yeah, like with Skull, I can see some Godlike hype here.  Concentrate --> Agidyne is 950 damage, which is 2.64x average damage (against a physical average), while Blazing Hell is 1070 (2.98x average damage).  With Dormina in place first, that's 1425 damage with Agidyne (3.96x average damage) and 1605 damage (4.47x average damage) with Blazing Hell.  Dormina is hellishly accurate, and despair is basically 74% insta-death that doesn't check the same immunity.  The combination of healing and Tarunda means her durability, long-term, is pretty awesome, and with Dormina to give her an opening to Concentrate, PCs are generally not happy facing her tricks.  Again, she really would kill for a little more speed or durability, but I can see the hype for Godlike.  Less raw power than Skull, but can do more when someone counters her damage charge-up. 


Fox
Fox never really wants a weapon other than his Senryou Takusha most of the time.  The only time I think he'd want to switch is to the Red Demon Blade, when he wants to go for evasion and poking to inflict despair for the cheap win.  Basic attack damage with Red Demon Blade is 192 damage, and Brave Blade drops to 400 damage (1.11x average damage). 

Gun Ailment Options
Blah, blah, damage:
- Freeze: 57%
- Rage: 57%
- Fear: 57%
- Dizzy: 57%
- Random Ailment: 74%

Not bad options, although he'd love for a killer ailment, although he can get that from the Kuzuryo Gouhou (but random ailment, so he's unlikely to hit despair before running out of bullets).  He generally prefers the shock infliction.  But unlike the rest of the cast, he has a really nice stat boost option in the Heaven's Gate.  The damage is 26 per hit, 312 with a full clip.  The main reason to use it, though, is the +10 Ag.  This buffs his speed to 120%, with 20% evasion, and 40% after Sukukaja (given his Speed Master passive, he should always be at 40%).  He does like this option, and it's what he goes for if he wants to try to inflict despair with his Red Demon Blade attacks.  He can also go with his default weapon, and try to Brave Blade things to death off 120% speed, hoping he doesn't take damage that prevents him from using Brave Blade via evasion.  I think he prefers the reliability of shock --> Brave Blade x2, but it's an option.

Protector Set-ups
Like Skull, he likes the option of the Fluted Guard.  This makes him 106% average speed, and 102% durability.  With the Heaven's Gate added in, that's 126% average speed, and 50% evasion with Sukukaja in effect.  This is the complete evasion set-up for him, allowing him to dodge attacks and stab people until they get sad enough to commit suicide.  Karna's Robe makes his physical durability to 116%.  Probably not as overall helpful as the evasion set-up.  His best overall durability, for a final option, is to use the Life Jacket for +20 HP, making his overall durability 107%.  Again, not as good as the evasion set-up.  Dropping the Demon's Jacket for any of these protectors drops the damage of Brave Blade to 414 (1.15x average damage), which is still his best damage. 

Additional Comments: Like Mona, I see him in the Middle range, with the ability to spoil Heavies and get mauled by some Lights.  The evasion set-up is better than I thought it would be in the DL, especially if you respect evasion a bit more.  He still generally prefers the shock --> Brave Blade x2 strategy, but anyone with evasion-subject damage probably gets mauled.  He has enough durability to survive a few hits, so even if someone breaks his evasion, he can still keep going.  An odd dueler, but the first one to really make use of his optional equipment set-ups.


Queen
Her weapon options are actually reasonable.  While she can boost her St with the Clenched Fist, I don't think she ever wants it, since Flash Bomb isn't that good.  However, the Mach Punch is good for +3 Ag.  This makes her 114% speed, and her attack deals 120 damage.  Given her penchant for magic, she probably wants to default to this all the time.

Gun Ailment Options
Blah, blah, damage:
- Fear: 57%
- Forget: 57%
- Brainwash: 57%
- Random Ailment: 57%
- Dizzy: 74%

A good set of options for ailments, overall.  No killer ones, but still good.  Of course, I haven't mentioned her real gun option, the Judge of the Dead.  This beautiful gun adds +10 to all stats.  Assuming Mach Fist and Judge of the Dead, here are the relevant changes: 

Accuracy Modifier: 135%
Durability: 120% (240% with Rakukaja)
Evasion: 35%
Speed: 134%
Ailment Resistance: 15%

Attack: 135 physical damage
Gun: 30 gun damage per hit (180 per full clip)

Atomic Flare (48 SP): 436 nuclear damage (1.21x average damage)
Freidyne (12 SP): 385 nuclear damage, ST (1.07x average damage)
Flash Bomb (19% MHP): 172 physical damage, inflicts dizzy 35%

She really likes this from a raw stat potential.  It's her best in-game very easily, and serves her well in the DL.  The ailment options are nice, but wow she shames the rest of the cast - the durability is especially impressive with Defense Master, meaning she tanks better than anyone except Joker (and even then, it's close).  Healing and no real weakness rounds her out nicely. 

Protector Set-ups
The Maillot, which gives +3 Ag, is something she may want to make use of if she really wants to be 140% speed (with Judge of the Dead and Mach Fist) and 114% (228% with Rakukaja) durability.  Not as helpful, relatively, as for the rest of the cast (134% speed is usually enough), but it's an option.  Oh, and that's 40% evasion with that set-up, cause, you know, the raw durability wasn't good enough to begin with.  Life Jacket is a bit more durability, making her 122% (244% with Rakukaja) durability.  Dropping the Haten Robe for any of these protectors drops the damage of Freidyne and Atomic Flare by 12 points, which matters barely ever.  If Queen really needs, she can grab the Mizuha Doumaru, which has 20% fire resistance.  This drops her to a terrible 118% durability (which is 236% with Rakukaja) overall, but 141% durability (282% with Rakukaja) against fire damage.

Additional Comments: Despite the stat dominance of Mach Fist + Judge of the Dead, I can't see her as Godlike, whereas I can see the hype for Skull and Panther.  Her big issue is that she doesn't have a ton of tricks, just stat dominance.  It's really good stat dominance (gogogogo Defense Master), but she doesn't do much else, and she is very SP-reliant.  With a physical average, she definitely can't make Godlike, although if you don't take the physical average, I can possibly see it (1.4x damage of a rarely resisted element off 134% speed and 240% durability is nuts).  Depends on how much credit you give raw stat dominance - it's really good, but doesn't, to me, have the tricks to make Godlike.  Still a good Heavy. 


Noir
Well...this is easy.  With the Amazon Axe, One Shot Kill is 450 damage (1.25x average damage), so it's an option.  Drops Psiodyne to 334 damage when she loses the +5 Ma, but threatens pain and death to the weak due to One Shot Kill's critical rate (especially with Heat Riser in play).

Gun Ailment Options
She doesn't really care.  One shot ailments off aren't terribly impressive.  I can't see her ever really using them, except against someone who can run her out of resources.  Against that, her worst ailment accuracy over 12 rounds is 72%, and Philemon help us if we ever get into one of those situations.

Protector Set-ups
The Maillot and its +3 Ag may see good use.  This makes her 104% average speed, and 85% durability.  It's a drop in durability, but at least keeps her out of 2-shot range (and if she gets of Heat Riser first, which is probably her aim with the set-up, that's 170% durability).  Life Jacket is a bit more durability, making her 93% durability (which is 186% with Heat Riser).  Dropping the Haten Robe for any of these protectors drops the damage of Psiodyne by 12 points, which, like the rest of the girls, she really doesn't care about.  With the Mizuha Doumaru, she drops to 89% durability (which is 178% with Heat Riser) overall, but 100% durability (200% with Heat Riser) against fire damage.

Additional Comments: The pattern with this cast seems to be Solid Heavy-Godlike or weird Middle.  Noir is a weird Middle, which doesn't change much with alternate set-ups.  She just doesn't care for her other equipment overall, besides the option of the Maillot.  She still relies on her reflect skills and Heat Riser to win, and looks to spoil people in general.  DL-wise, I could see her as the cast-worst dueler, since she loses out on the gun translation for ailments.  However, if you take the non-physical average, she 2-shots off of good reserves, so she may edge out Fox in that sense.  Spoils some high power Godlikes, loses potentially to Lights.  Such is the P5 cast as a whole.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 09:06:51 PM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

SnowFire

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2017, 02:05:28 PM »
Super cool stuff as usual.  Not finished yet myself so can't comment too much about some of the endgame stuff.  A few nits / comments anyway:

* (EDIT: This is wrong, ignore me.) On speed: Just to mention it again, but as you noted above, Ag *might* matter for inter-party turn order, but doesn't matter for PCs vs. enemies, so this is another cast where everyone is average speed IMO.  (Or, at the very least, average CTB speed after turn 1, due to the strict turn-trading between sides.)  (Unless there's some way for enemies to take the first turn due to better Agi from them?  I don't THINK this is the case, but I basically never get "fair" fights, it's all either me ambushing them or them ambushing me it seems.  Maybe some of those ambushes are stopped by great Agi?)  (EDIT: Right, Mementos fights are "fair" by default and can have interleaved turns rather than it beign all PCs go -> all enemies go.)

* How effective is Noir / Joker's Heat Riser?  In the sense of amount of % damage buffed by, damage reduced by.  Wild guess is fine.

* Are you assuming any HP/SP training for Joker?

* Related, and it doesn't really matter if you allow free skill shuffling, but I suspect that Noir would want to sneak Triple Down into her default set somewhere as it is her best damage.  Don't ask me what to take out, though (Makarakarn?  Most PC duelers will have some horrible cheap early game spell they can use to break the shield and wear out Noir's SP, and I presume that Almighty still ignores shields?).

* Also, if you're allowing Atomic Flare (learned at L75, aka right near the cap), any particular reason not to allow Blazing Hell as well (L74 allegedly)?  Seems like either both should be set or neither.

* Kind of annoying how good some of the status gun games are (like Morgana's Despair gun), since ammo is so hugely limited in-game, and dungeons are big.  Oh well.

* Per Elf in the P4 stat thread, I think the decent compromise for HP cost skills is to adjust by (Kill point) * (% MHP self-damage).  IOW, if you deal 50% enemy PCHP at the cost of 20% of your PCHP, it should count as a net 30% PCHP damage move in the average.  (This gets a little finicky when you have issues like "all the physical damage dealers have above average HP, so they're actually spending more HP than average", but those issues are pretty small and ignorable in general.)  And for the no-HP-cost-skills average, Skull should certainly swap in Elec Boost if he's going to be having Ziodyne as his "best" damage.  (Unless that was already baked in?)

Damage average w/ HP cost adjustment per above:

583   Joker-Yoshitsune   Hassou Tobi (816 - .25 PCHP)
428   Panther   Blazing Hell
419   Noir   Gun
407   Queen   Atomic Flare
345   Mona   Garudyne
325   Joker-Throne   Makougaon
231   Fox      Brave Blade (435 - .24 PCHP)
230   Skull    God's Hand (443 - .25 PCHP)

Average (w/ Joker-Throne): 341    (2.5 killpoint: 852)
Average (w/ Joker-Yoshitsune): 372     (2.5 killpoint: 930)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 07:54:19 AM by SnowFire »

Pyro

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2017, 04:54:08 PM »
Just pointing out that in addition to the HP cost offsetimg the damage, the HP cost means they can not be consistently used in a duel, so a 3 turn damage average may count them once at a derated damage and use 0HP cost moves for the other turns.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2017, 12:27:13 AM »
As long as they can be used at least 3 times I don't really see a problem with including them, properly derated, in the damage average. Pokemon stat topics have done this for years (though in fairness the close proximity of average HP and kill point in Pokemon makes the calculation easy). If the damage dealt is so high as to be worth the HP cost, the average should reflect this.

Granted it looks like it doesn't make too much difference in this case, unlike P4 where not counting Hassou Tobi because of some barely-relevant self-damage was quite egregious.

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SnowFire

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2017, 04:29:39 AM »
Well, Fox would be at 28% HP from merely using his own skills 3 times, thus losing to a faster-than-average character who can chip with a mighty 10% or so of Fox's HP (ignoring his evasion, of course).  The bigger issue would be less HP-cost spam and more ludicrously backloaded damage that's basically a fantasy that will never ever happen in Heavy and above.  Similar issue to say DQ8 Jessica's best 3-turn damage being 2x Tension -> Magic Burst.  I imagine Skull would be Tarukaja, Power Charge, God's Hand, but anybody who lets him do this  (i.e. let average-speed opponent with bad status blockers still have 26% HP on turn 3) deserves to lose.

Anyway, just for fun, don't take this average seriously for anything, and assuming Heat Riser is still +40% damage per P4, so not worth it for Noir naively (of course still worth it in reality, since it buffs evasion & defense):

1498   Panther   Concentrate -> Blazing Hell x2
1422   Skull   Tarukaja -> Charge -> God's Hand  (This happens rarely) (1661 - .25 PCHP)
1257   Noir   Gun x3
1221   Queen   Atomic Flare x3
1035   Mona   Garudyne x3
975     Joker   Makougaon x3
617     Fox   Brave Blade x3 (THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN) (1305 - .72 PCHP)

3-turn average: 1146 ( 2.5 killpoint 955)

The better argument for amping up the damage average is probably something like "Joker is being undersold if he's ever allegedly having close to below-average damage, the rest of the cast should never look better in comparison to Joker, only worse", IMO.

(Edited a spoiler name - OK)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 10:39:11 PM by OblivionKnight »

OblivionKnight

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2017, 04:55:52 AM »
Hey, able to get on the internet better than I thought I could!  Time to answer some questions!

1) Speed, unless I have seen the worst case of luck in randomization, is affected on both sides by Ag.  Remeber that if you're getting ambushes, the turn order is all allies --> enemies --> usual order, so you may be outspeeding everything afterwards.  I ran   minimal testing on it, since it's something I observed through the game, but I'm pretty sure it does affect action order on both sides.  Take Joker and switch personas, or drop a high Ag boosting gun (Heaven's Gate, Judge of the Dead) on party members, take it off, and see what happens.  Depends on your party a little bit, but enemies tend to have solid Ag, so unless you're on the faster side of things, they often do hit you before you get a shot at them, which is why you really want to ambush it.

I'll go back and test when I return.  I have some testing to do still, and I''ll run some more on that issue.  I was debating on releasing nothing until I had time to put everything up, but that would have been after I got back in the country, and I wanted to have something up for people to look at. 

2) The stat buff and debuff effects seem to be 50%.  I actually think the level factor plays a role, particularly when you hit the +/- 5 levels point.  With my testing, it definitely fell in that range, though I'll do more extensive testing if needed.  It seems that once you hit the exponential level effects, you see less effect from -kajas and -kundas  (on the wrong side of the level equation) vs. the opposite (on the right side of the level equation). 

3) None.  I should note that.  It's generally better to focus on maxing the confidants and doing other things.  If you assume perfect use of time, you can probably get +80 or so, but it does take some start-up time, use of specific items, etc. that make it more of a headache I think.  Still, you may be able to assume a little bit of a bonus.

4) Noir's skill set-up was a headache, as she has a lot of potentially good options.  Triple Down is hypothetically her best, but it's the most innaccurate skill in the game, and it's not by a ton of damage compared to her gun (419 for the gun vs. 441 with Triple Down) that it probably matters.  One Shot Kill is better if you factor in criticals.

5) I...do allow Blazing Hell?  I'm a little confused by this question.  I didn't assume it as default because it's not something Panther really cares about in most fights, and the damage output from Concentrate --> Agidyne is way better and cheaper.  The severe spells (Blazing Hell, Atomic Flare, etc.) are like 15% more damage for 4x the cost (ST) or 2.5x the cost (MT), and generally not worth it.  Even in-game, -dynes are probably better - I actually was thinking of sticking with Freidyne for Queen's default damage, but unlike Panther, she doesn't have a way of buffing it with Concentrate, so it's relatively more valuable for her to use it (but she still wants Freidyne most commonly).  Something I may do when I get back.

6) Yep, the exact opposite of in-game.  Fox, Panther, Mona are the most affected I think - Fox at least only gets 10% shots, but with 12 hits, it's still very accuracy.  At least Wild Hunt isn't 12 hits like most of Panther's weapons...that would be nuts.

7) A lot I could say here, but as long as you're fair and consistent, that's fine I think - there are very legitimate reasons to exclude physicals or include them (25% MHP damage is fairly significant, but so is the damage it deals) - hence why I put up 2 damage averages.  Those damage numbers are actually lower than the way I did in the main topic for a physical inclusion average, so they might work as a nice in-between compromise.  Something I'll work on when I get back.

8) Skull's Elec Boost is included in his weapon for the topic - a note I made in his commentary covers the weapon change, hence why he doesn't have it as a default skill.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

SnowFire

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2017, 07:52:58 AM »
Thanks for the replies.

Agility stat: I'm an idiot, I take back what I said about speed, it's a real stat.  It's much more obvious in Mementos rather than Palaces - in a Palace, everything is you ambush them (and all go first, followed by them all getting turns if there are any survivors) or they ambush you.  Mementos you see vanilla turn-based battles with fast enemies outspeeding you more often.

Blazing Hell: The reason I got the impression that you might think it illegal was because you didn't use it in your single-turn damage average. I still don't see why DL-Panther doesn't want it as default if you allow it as under the level cap.  Concentrate -> Agidyne is good, but Concentrate -> Blazing Hell is better?  It's just plain more damage (unless it somehow doesn't work with Concentrate???  But it's a magic attack, why wouldn't it?)  Yeah, it's less SP efficient, but she still has enough for 5 castings in the DL, which is plenty.  Plenty of casts would LOVE to be able to use their best damage that many times because they run out in 3 uses or the like.  It'd be one thing if it was using half her SP, but it isn't.  The DL is about quickdraws, not dungeon resource conservation; a sprint, not a marathon.  (And I doubt Panther is getting into resource-intensive heal-locks frequently; thanks to Concentrate, healers are in general unhappy facing her.)

Noir: If Triple Down is that inaccurate, makes sense to leave it off - might want to put a note on the skill then that it sucks.  (Not far enough to judge myself yet.)  Although maybe a Heat Riser cast would fix the accuracy problems, at least?  Wouldn't be surprised if Heat Riser -> Triple Down is still a useful technique for Noir sometimes just to pulse the maximum damage in a single turn and KO healers.

(Edited spoiler names - OK)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 10:42:49 PM by OblivionKnight »

OblivionKnight

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2017, 06:03:13 PM »
1) Yeah, it can be hard to tell.  I'm fairly sure that palace alert level also affects action order to an extent - you'll notice even high Ag characters get outsped by lower Ag shadows at high alert levels, even after you've been outspeeding them for a while.

2) Your point about best damage is right.  Having said that, it boils down to default skillsets.  Characters are limited to 8 skills - if they had 12, I agree, Blazing Hell would be a default.  As it is, I went through and thought where she would really need 48 extra damage.  She arguably would want Tentarafoo in her set-up for more ailment fun.  If she fought fire resistance, she'd rather use Fire Break, and save the SP.  Vs. a boss?  Needs long-term resources to take out their HP.  Arguably, Burn Boost would provide more overall damage long-term with Agidyne than Blazing Hell, so should could want that.  She has tons of skills, and given her having Concentrate and a need to use other skills, she likes the SP conservation from Agidyne more.  I just couldn't really think of a time when that 48 damage bonus would matter for her.  It's 12% more damage for 4.5x the SP cost.  Against no-physicals, it's 1.37x average damage for Blazing Hell vs. 1.22x average damage (with Blazing Hell in the average, 1.34 and 1.19).  So the only advantage is if you take it against a no physical average, it's a 2-shot to most...although Concentrate + Agidyne does the same thing, and that much overkill probably isn't needed in general.  Against a physical average, 1.19x for Blazing Hell vs. 1.05x for Agidyne (1.18 and 1.04 with Blazing Hell in the average).  Just overall, Panther likes tricks, and more SP to use them makes more sense.  Again, I don't have a problem with someone assuming it as her default (it raises the damage average by 6 points), just I don't consider it her default given how she wants to play.  Different viewpoints of default skillset, I suppose.


Anyway, I've edited the posts a bit.  Corrected some minor errors, made some changes (defaulted Queen to Orochi SP, since she likes the shock infliction on that vs. +5 Ma), cleaned it up a bunch. 

ALSO!  Added in the temp character to the 2nd post.  Bask in greatness!


A couple questions I wanted to pose:

1) So, I've been doing average persona stats over several fusions.  What I was considering that might work better is to scale the starting stats.  For example, if a persona has 10 St, 10 Ma, 10 En, 10 Ag, 10 Lu as starting stats, and needs 5 levels, that would evenly distribute their stats as 13 overall.  If the persona was 10 ST, 7 Ma, 7 En, 5 Ag, 5 Lu instead, that would be ratios of 1:0.7:0.7:0.5:0.5, meaning the persona would now have 17 St 10 Ma, 9 En, 7 Ag, 6 Lu (can't split points, obviously, so there will still be some randomness there).  I think that might be a more proper way of doing things?  Opinions welcome.

2) Accuracy modifier is...I don't know.  Would people prefer an accuracy for each individual skill?  I like the overall picture of accuracy modifier, but it could be misleading? 

3) Anything you want to see?  I still have bosses and some more alternate personas to add.  Just post here if you want to see something!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 04:06:42 AM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

SnowFire

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2017, 02:20:51 AM »
Neat stuff.  In the realm of suggestions, it doesn't have to be a science, but mark notably inaccurate skills that you wouldn't expect to be inaccurate (i.e. not the MT ones, which rarely DL-matter anyway) - Triple Down + anything like that.

Also, can you list Queen's damage with both guns?  i.e. list one gun option in brackets and have items like Atomic Flare: 386 [407].  Regardless of which one is "default", she's going to want to use both options a reasonable amount, plenty of status-immune enemies she just wants the raw damage for.

Bosses would be cool, but let's face it, they're all gonna be horrific unrankable Godlikes outside Nyarlie's Dungeon (RIP).  Send 1/4 of myself to steal the trophy I guess?!   While keeping DPS up?

Also, can you mark which weapons / armor are annoying & obscure to get?  Obviously I'm not close to finished yet so can't make my own comments on legality, but since I see you edited in the Snow Queen's Whip; it sounds like massive FAQ bait fusion nonsense that doesn't sound super-legal to me, but I suppose I'll have to get farther along to know for sure.  Or, alternatively, mark the best storebought + guaranteed drop stuff - that'd work as well.

--

As far as DL interpretations...  well, first I should say that the first rule is: stat topic creator makes all the tough calls.  I want the right to use whatever crazy interp in my topics, so I fully approve you having the right to use whatever interp you think is best.  So, ignore me, follow your heart!  (Don't steal other's, though.  That's illegal.)

That said, if you're curious about my two cents...  a one-turn damage average / default builds should be optimized for facing a status and debuff immune opponent with skills that can be used at least 3+ times.  That's it.  There are some corner cases, sure (characters whose best damage is also slow, characters who have to throw away tons of defense to get their best damage, characters whose best damage is still so bad they don't come close to KOing with it before running out of resources), but that's the default.  The Shock gun drops damage and Blazing Hell can be used 3+ times, so that's that.  IOW, EVEN IF Blazing Hell was left off her default set, it should *still* go in the damage average version - she's just choosing to gimp her own damage a bit.
 Considering this is another cast with a cheaty auto-life effect for nearly everyone, I'm not inclined to be super-sypmathetic.  As noted, many casts have it far worse than P5; look at, say, your average Grandia game, where the top-tier skills run through all their SP really fast and it won't realistically be restored.  (Also, I'd suggest Evade Ice if I had to guess something to drop for setting both Agidyne & BH, if you really want the long-term damage option.)

Concentrate -> Agidyne is 1.11 PCHP (by the damage average with Throne I posted and assuming +5 Ma gun on Queen).  Concentrate -> Blazing Hell is 1.25 PCHP.  That's a notable difference.  Even if you don't scale bosses and thus see them as having huge HP (which would also make most of them upgrade out of Panther's Heavy anyway), it's still relevant vs. PCs and the likes of WA4 bosses.  It's reasonably common that Panther doesn't want to get into a heally stall-off (due to fear of charge-up moves, criticals, whatever) and just wants to plain 2HKO two-round KO a PC with Concentrate -> OHKO Damage.  Let's assume it's a PC that immunes her status too (if they bite it to sleep / despair, they probably lose regardless of what damage she sets).

I'm going to give an example that's easy for me because I did the stat-topic and still have the stats around, but Trails in the Sky SC ( I know you probably didn't play it, you should fix that!).  This is a cast that has really badass status blockers and laughs off all of the status games here.  They're mostly average speed, but you really don't want to get into a healfest because they rip you apart with charged limits (or just plain heal-lock from the start, if you let them have limits pre-charged).  You want to kill them before they get a 2nd turn.  (Although I suppose the Trails cast hates the Endure effect with a passion, though...  use a limit to kill, then watch as she heals back up again.  But ignoring that for the moment!)  Concentrate -> Blazing Hell KOs the entire cast.  Concentrate -> Agidyne misses the KO on Zane, Julia, and Mueller, and just barely kills Agate, maybe.  So it changes the damage race notably for 3/12 characters, maybe 4/12.  1.1 - 1.25 PCHP is a pretty common range, that's "somewhat above average HP or magic defense."  Opponents who can withstand 3x Concentrated Hells (~3.75 PCHP) probably resist Fire and are an uphill battle anyway, and if won at all, are won from status / whip thwacks + healing.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 04:09:10 PM by SnowFire »

OblivionKnight

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2017, 03:39:35 PM »
1) I can do that, although, really, it's mostly the MT skills at endgame, including Triple Down.  Most of the skills that would be used for Skull and Noir (since they're the ones with the primary issue of hitting things), such as God's Hand and One Shot Kill, are accurate enough.  Really, Triple Down, Swift Strike, Agneyastra are the only skills that would have some inaccuracy (Agneyastra > Triple Down = Swift Strike, about, for accuracy purposes - they'll still struggle with evasion, until Noir uses Heat Riser at least)

2) I'll add some of the set-up considerations to the 3rd post, since listing status rates with the guns and other options might be helpful (go....130% speed Queen!)

3) OF COURSE BOSSES WILL COME.  And there are 2...very rankable ones, at least.  I look at rankability as more of a plot thing.  Like with P4, I didn't necessarily see the shadows as rankable (arguable, but not enough for me).  One thing to note is that most of them don't need someone sent to perform an action, only a few absolutely require it, and it's actually a HP damage trigger, rather than time.  So they're all pretty rankable if you just assume that you need to deal damage - it's effectively more HP for them. 
- 3 Girls, 1 Cup: need to kill the Trophy, but sending an ally to steal the treasure only makes him die faster and deal less damage, not necessary
- Goldmember: completely unnecessary, only expedites his death
- Baxter Stockman: you can either deal damage or throw an item to stop his special attack (gogogogogo Rikku hype?)
- Fourth Boss I Need a Codename For: this is one that you can technically kill without, but it takes forever (since you can't use physical skills, and the defense is high prior to firing the ballista)
- The Great Gazoo: no special event triggers, just murdering things
- Sixth Boss I Need a Codename For: yeah, nothing special here; the first part of the battle is purely plot, as she has 65535 HP that can't be depleted, and the second part's roulette wheel is basically an attack that's open to fun interpretation for all
- Seventh Boss I Think I Have a Codename For But Not Sure if People Will Get It: no gimmick, just straight up murdering; formchains will get questions from most, but it's at least very legal to me
- Eighth Boss I Think I Have a Codename For That Most Will Get: Yeah, this one I think you need to; I should try and see if you can kill without sending someone to cut the supply lines, but I think you generally need to do it (although, it has 10000 HP; if you got a charge from Oracle and had full buffs/debuffs, at level 99, it might be possible with twinking); second form is straightforward, only question being the formchain, which is, again, legal to me

3) For most weapons, there's no issue.  The itemization is actually very not FAQ bait, although how many fusion materials you have could be variable (still, for the main ones you want, you'll probably be able to get enough, as a lot of the listed ones are more DL than in-game use).  If you have the persona in your inventory, go to itemization, it will list what each persona becomes.  You can even go in to the item for more explicit details.  The only ones I would consider possibly questionable are the non-auto-maxing confidants.  Although, again, level requirements could put a damper on that, but STRENGTH exists, so...it's questionable.  For reference again, the auto-maxing ones are FOOL, MAGICIAN, JUSTICE, and JUDGEMENT.  Most weapons listed are actually storebought, although some become available right at the final dungeon.  The relevant ones that are itemization-dependent are:
- Paradise Lost: Satanael persona itemization (level 95, New Game+)
- Arsene's Cane: Arsene persona itemization (level 1, FOOL, starting persona)
- Tyrant Pistol: Lucifer persona itemization (level 93, STAR, max confidant)
- Nataraja: Metatron persona itemization (level 89, JUSTICE, max confidant)
- Ruyi Jingu Bang: Hanuman persona itemization (level 64, STAR, found as a shadow in the 7th dungeon)
- Mjolnir: Thor persona itemization (level 64, CHARIOT, found as a shadow in the 8th dungeon)
- Megido Fire: Shiva persona itemization (level 82, JUDGEMENT, requires specific fusion of Barong and Rangda)
- Pumpkin Bomb: Jack O' Lantern persona itemization (level 2, MAGICIAN, found as a shadow in the 1st dungeon)
- Claiomh Solais: Mother Harlot persona itemization (level 80, EMPRESS, max confidant)
- Sudarshana: Kohryu persona itemization (level 76, HIEROPHANT, max confidant, requires specific fusion of Seiryu, Byakko, Suzaku, and Genbu)
- Catnap: Neko Shogun persona itemization (level 30, STAR, requires specific fusion of Anzu, Sudama, and Kodama)
- Naraka Whip: Black Frost persona itemization (level 67, FOOL, requires completion of a Mementos mission to unlock, requires specific fusion of King Frost, Jack Frost, and Jack O'Lantern)
- Snow Queen's Whip: Skadi persona itemization (level 55, PRIESTESS, found as a shadow in the 6th dungeon)
- Masquerade Ribbon: Queen Mab persona itemization (level 43, MAGICIAN, found as a shadow in the 6th dungeon)
- Wild Hunt: Odin persona itemization (level 82, EMPEROR, max confidant)
- Brain Shot: Succubus persona itemization (level 7, MOON, found as a shadow in the 1st dungeon)
- Usumidori: Yoshitsune persona itemization (level 79, TOWER, requires specific fusion of Futsunushi, Yatagarasu, Okuninushi, Arahabaki, and Shiki-Ouji)
- Senryou Takusha: Ame no Uzume persona itemization (level 29, LOVERS)
- Heaven's Gate: Uriel persona itemization (level 81, JUSTICE)
- Kuzuryo Gouhou: Vasuki persona itemization (level 68, HANGED MAN, requires specific fusion of Raja Naga, Ananta, and Naga)
- Sabazios: Cybele persona itemization (level 73, PRIESTES, max confidant)
- Vajra: Asura persona itemization (level 76, SUN, max confidant, requires specific fusion of Bishamonten, Koumokuten, Zouchouten, and Jikokuten)
- Judge of the Dead: Michael persona itemization (level 87, JUDGEMENT, requires specific fusion of Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel)
- Fleurs du Mal: Beelzebub persona itemization (level 84, DEVIL, max confidant)
- Death Contract: Mithra persona itemization (level 33, TEMPERANCE)
- Yagrush: Baal persona itemization (level 75, EMPEROR, found as a shadow in the 8th dungeon)
- Powzooka: Nekomata persona itemization (level 17, MAGICIAN, found as a shadow in the 3rd dungeon)

Of those, some aren't too important (Usumidori, for instance).  It really depends on your limits for levels and max confidants.  Itemization opens up after the 4th dungeon, so there's a good bit of time to get everything you really would want (especially since some items are more DL-useful than in-game useful, e.g., the non-stat-boosting guns).

4) Well, interesting.  It does boil down to a difference in views, I think.  Status...I take a literal interpretation (despair, brainwash don't exist etc., so they still get through fine by 2 turns...I generally take the same view with elements too, but I think these views are uncommon).  Damage average...I've moved towards more of an in-game take on it, but again, my DL views have always been different in what I go for (hence why people like to remake my stat topics :)).  IBut yeah, not to go harp on my view, since it is just a different view, where both are valid.  Grand scheme, it raises the damage average by 6 points included.  If you allow skill switching, I'd say it's pretty much agreed to put it into the averages.  If you don't allow skill changing (since it takes valuable time in-game), then I'd say it shouldn't be included in the average.  So it all really goes back to "default", and since there are 2 different views that I think are equally valid, both can exist happily. 

Also, stealing hearts isn't illegal...as long as no one knows it was you.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 12:48:17 AM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Nephrite

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2017, 09:21:26 PM »
Can you include numbers for Queen and the other characters assuming their +stat weapons somewhere? Or even just mention "this would increase the damage by x% and lower damage taken by y%"

If you need help with this, please let me know, as it is my duty to help out.

Niu

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2017, 05:49:20 AM »
OK, just name the seventh boss Char Aznabel.

Also, you might want to do Joker's damage with Nataraja equipped for Yoshitsune.
It gives +5 to all states, and Yoshitsune is Joker's best damage.

OblivionKnight

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2017, 05:42:24 PM »
Neph: They're in the 3rd post, although it might make sense to bring that into the main 2nd post.  I took out the Mirrirmina (Ma+5 gun for Queen) since she never wants that if Judge of the Dead is available. 

Niu: Yes, Char Aznabel is perfect!  And probably better known than the name I was going to use >_> 

One thing I was thinking of doing was make a twink set-up.  Like taking personas to level 75 (if starting at levels below that), throwing skills on them, etc.  Things like Kaguya with Light Boost + Light Amp, etc.  Probably not necessary, but something cool to do.  That would probably also involve a maxed out Yoshitsune too.


ALSO!  All bosses are posted now!

Unless a certain President once again demands the optional "superbosses" from P5...
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2017, 01:25:06 PM »
By the way: I'd -strongly- advocate for making Killer Collar Mona's default. 1.5x damage for the first three turns of battle in exchange for taking 7% more damage and missing out on 20% Psi evade is a seriously, seriously winning trade, considering his crap durability and decent speed. It lets Mona scrape a 2HKO to average off even Snowfire's Yoshitsune averages, with the damage boost to Mona factored in, to boot.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 01:27:03 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

OblivionKnight

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2017, 05:17:27 PM »
Updates!

So, the 5th post has all the set-up with different equipment and explanations, since people were wanting that (and I wanted to add it anyway).  Let me know if that works or if you need anything else.  Working on fine-tuning some of the accuracy and critical info, but most of the topic is completed!  Yay! 
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

SnowFire

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2017, 12:40:13 AM »
Thanks for the updates!  Cool stuff as usual.

That said, I think the numbers are still too nice (134% speed Queen?).  :)  Thinking on it, Joker-for-averages vs. Joker-with-Strength 10 is a pretty good way to separate the cast.  If you want access to your whiz-bang post-75 items, cool, but you better be ready to go up against averages that assume Joker & everyone else got their post-75-fusion goodies too.  What the cast shouldn't get is the ability to have access to "unfair" stuff while going up against the "Fair" average.  I think I'm cool with letting some characters take the "Fair" average if they want if they use only fair stuff (Noir doesn't care too much if she loses a little damage off Psiodyne from losing Fleurs du Mal), but if Fox wants that delicious +10 Ag, his damage is going in the wastebin from competing with other unfair stuff.  (I can also see stricter voters just picking one set and sticking to it!)

So, in short:
* "Fair" - Ignores some of the one-off late-breaking items with big stat boosts for the sake of not distorting averages.  Doesn't have Joker's overlevel Personas or any customization (although lets him keep Tyrant Pistol, I guess).  Because Strength 10 is not assumed, any items > L75 from electric chair item creation are ignored.
* "Unfair" - Includes all that crazy stuff, and assumes Joker goes nuts with Yoshitsune (but not complete skill customization).


Resulting averages:

Speed (SnowFire verisons)

"Fair"
53 ( 112%)    Joker-Throne (w/ Pro Parrying Dagger)
53 ( 112%)    Queen (w/ Mach Punch & Mirrirmina)
49 ( 104%)    Mona
46 ( 97%)    Fox
45 ( 95%)    Noir
43 ( 91%)    Panther
42 ( 89%)    Skull
Average: 47.3
Std. dev: 4.5


"Unfair"
67 ( 129%)    Joker-Yoshitsune (w/ Pro Parrying Dagger, Nataraja)
63 ( 121%)    Queen (w/ Mach Punch, Judge of the Dead)
56 ( 107%)    Fox (w/ Heaven's Gate)
49 ( 94%)    Mona
45 ( 86%)    Noir
43 ( 83%)    Panther
42 ( 81%)    Skull
Average: 52.1
Std. dev: 10.0

(Edit: Added std. deviations)
--
Damage (SnowFire versions)

"Fair, no Auto-Tarukaja"
428   Panther   Blazing Hell
419   Noir   Gun
407   Queen (w/ Mirrirmina)   Atomic Flare
345   Mona   Garudyne
325   Joker-Throne   Makougaon
231   Fox      Brave Blade (435 - .24 PCHP)
230   Skull    God's Hand (443 - .25 PCHP)
Average: 341    (2.5 killpoint: 852)

"Unfair, no Auto-Tarukaja"
820   Joker-Yoshitsune (w/ Nataraja)   Hassou Tobi (1072 - .25 PCHP)
436   Queen (w/ JotD)   Atomic Flare
428   Panther        Blazing Hell
419   Noir       Gun
345   Mona   Garudyne
193   Fox      Brave Blade (435 - .24 PCHP)
191   Skull    God's Hand (443 - .25 PCHP)
Average: 405    (2.5 killpoint: 1010)


"Fair, Auto-Tarukaja"
517   Mona (w/ Killer Collar)   Garudyne (Taru'd)
428   Panther   Blazing Hell
422   Skull (w/ Ruyi Jingu Bang)   God's Hand (Taru'd) (664 - .25 PCHP)
419   Noir   Gun
407   Queen (w/ Mirrirmina)   Atomic Flare
325   Joker-Throne   Makugon
202   Fox   Brave Blade (435 - .24 PCHP)
Average: 389    (2.5 killpoint: 970)

"Unfair, Auto-Tarukaja"

792   Joker-Yoshitsune (w/ Nataraja)   Hassou Tobi (1072 - .25 PCHP)
517   Mona (w/ Killer Collar)   Garudyne (Taru'd)
436   Queen (w/ JotD)   Atomic Flare
428   Panther   Blazing Hell
419   Noir   Gun
384   Skull (w/ Ruyi Jingu Bang)   God's Hand (Taru'd) (664 - .25 PCHP)
166   Fox   Brave Blade (435 - .24 PCHP)
Average: 449    (2.5 killpoint: 1121)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 08:37:27 PM by SnowFire »

SnowFire

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2017, 02:13:50 AM »
Also, if you just let characters pick the average they want to use, here's what I suspect they want...  (this might be too nice to the cast?  But it's not unprecedented or anything to throw out certain missable / obscura / lategame skills so that the rest of the cast doesn't feel like total chumps...  and stuff like Nataraja & Judge of the Dead certainly qualify...)

* Noir & Panther want "Fair."  They largely have the stuff they care about "legally."  As noted above, Noir loses a little Psiodyne damage from no +Ma weapon, and Panther loses her Despair gun for fire-resistant PCs, but whatever.
* Skull & Mona want "Fair w/ Tarukaja".  I *guess* sometimes Mona wants the durability from his default equip (e.g. when going for Despair gun stratz rather than damage), but it's pretty rarely used in slugfests, especially with him having Endure.  Skull doesn't care, he has slots for a natural Elec Boost.
* Queen & Joker want "Unfair."  Joker is self-explanatory.  Queen actually *loses* damage, relatively, but she gets faster / tankier / more evasive, so it's an overall good trade.  (Incidentally, Flash Bomb is so hilariously bad that I suspect Evade Psy is still better than it.  Psychic-type Pokemon & Earthbound characters exist, but terrible damage that costs a bunch of life?  Maybe if Dizzy was 100% and lasted forever, but neither are true.  Also, Paradise Lost on Joker is a no go for me even under Unfair rules.  NG+ only items?  CT Crono for Godlike due to having the best mults on Luminaire once his Magic stat is capped, boss Magus for Puny.)
* Fox has the toughest choice: he can be a tad slow and have barely-2HKOs-average damage (that also kills himself), or he can get slightly better evasion and good speed in exchange for just sad damage.  My suspicion is that he'd rather stick to "Fair", but who knows.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 03:08:10 AM by SnowFire »

OblivionKnight

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2017, 01:40:13 AM »
Damn forums, so glitchy.  And, like, real life busy too :)

Anyway, I see the general point.  I've always followed by a standard average, and then take things against that.  STRENGTH 10 is the one confidant that is available even in the final dungeon (just, you know, don't go in to the big, dark, terrifying room until you're ready), and can be completed at level 51 very easy.  The big thing is how much money you assume.  If you wait until level 75 to do fusions, the rough cost is = to (Persona Level - Character Level * 10000).  It's not exact, but fusing Satanael at level 75 is about 200k, so it works as an estimate.  It all depends on how much money you assume people get - endgame protectors cost about 40k each, so to outfit the whole cast it's 280000.  I could, and probably should, go through and do a rough calculation of costs and estimates, assuming certain levels and degrees of STRENGTH at different levels.  You could wait until a higher level to summon the personas to reduce the cost significantly; however, you get limited by the days available, so can't make as many items.  That said, if you assume level 65 (should be doable for the completion of the 7th palace, and will give you enough days to itemize stuff you care about) is when you start doing the itemizations, the costs are such (estimates, again), assuming items that people actually care about (so I'm skipping Skull's Megido Fire, for instance):

Paradise Lost: 300000 (New Game+, so...)
Tyrant Pistol: 280000
Claiomh Solais: 250000*
Nataraja: 240000*
Judge of the Dead: 220000*
Fleurs du Mal: 190000*
Wild Hunt: 170000*
Heaven's Gate: 160000*
Sudarshana: 110000
Yagrush: 100000 (available as a persona in the 8th palace, so this one arguably has no cost unless you want to fuse him earlier than that)*
Naraka Whip: 20000

Total Cost: 1930000
(Note that this doesn't include the costs of fusion materials for the personas - for instance, Lucifer's Tyrant Pistol requires you fuse him with specific personas, some that will require extra money to fuse as well.  In practice, this is probably a 50-100% increase in cost)

Other items listed are very rarely useful (Fox's Usumidori) or come from much lower level personas (Panther's Brain Shot). For specific key items, Skull's Ruyi Jingu Bang is from a level 64 persona you acquire in the 7th palace.  Panther's Snow Queen's Whip comes from a level 55 persona in the 6th palace.  If you take the most important ones (* above), then total cost is 1230000.  Adding on the 280000 from protectors, that's 1510000.  Average final palace randoms give variable yen, but 4000 is reasonable (the final final final dungeon gives double that, but...well, you know why that doesn't matter if you've played that far).  Of course, the best way to get money is confusing enemies (Mementos bosses are best, but you can do this with randoms easily enough).  If you use the final Mementos request boss (the Chernobog fight), and run an hour of confusing with a decent Lu persona, you should have about 5000000 yen, give or take.  If you wait until 65 to fuse personas, that should be all you need.  If you run out of money, and can't do the Mementos bosses, then you can use high level shadows - Oberon, available in the 6th palace and Mementos, drops about 10k yen with moderate (50ish) Lu, 15k with maxed Lu.  An hour of that should get you 1000000 yen as a booster.  The money issue is not a huge problem if you work for it, but I can see how it might be considered a huge inconvenience to worry about (money can be an issue in-game throughout the game if you're trying to maximize equipment purchases, accessories, etc.).

I'd probably argue that, if you want to take them against an average with stronger stuff in them, then I'd use just their changes to the average taken against themselves.  So, for example, if Joker is doing higher level personas + Nataraja, then the Ag average looks like this (Yoshitsune + Pro Parrying Dagger + Nataraja):

Ag: 49 (with Oracle)/48 (without Oracle)
----------
67 - Joker - 139% speed (vs. 142% on the old average)
(52 - Oracle)
50 - Queen
49 - Mona
46 - Fox
45 - Noir
43 - Panther
42 - Skull

Noir, Skull, and Mona don't care too much about post-75 equipment itemizations (Skull gets everything by level 64 that he wants; Mona misses the +50 SP, but can live without it; Noir loses some Psiodyne damage, but doesn't care).  Panther wants the Wild Hunt, but can survive without it.  Joker...post-75 personas are nice, but it depends a lot on your allowances with skill inheritance, etc.  So he...wants post-75 stuff, but survives well without it, depending.  Queen and Fox are the only ones who really want the items, and they have other options that are reasonable (Queen's default gun saves SP costs; Fox's saves HP cost of Brave Blade).  I don't think any of the equips that are questionable changes the absolute ranks (may modify where in Godlike you put Joker, but again, there's a lot of other factors to consider in that equation besides the weapons and personas).

So in general, the cast doesn't care too much, but it's a good thought exercise.

[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

SnowFire

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2017, 08:27:20 PM »
A few mostly status-related comments:

* Shock's duration is definitely, 100%, a single turn.  I double-checked.  (EDIT: To be extra clear, it's "PC inflicts shock, enemy skips next turn, PC can inflict a technical damage hit, enemy gets a turn and recovers.")  So per the PG thread, the Shock gun -> Charge -> God's Hand combo for Skull hyped above doesn't work (barring a ludicrously slow enemy).  Shock -> Technical-boosted God's Hand is still kosher though.  Makes Orochi SP a little less important for Queen as well.  (On the other hand, Freeze DOES last 2 turns, so that's a better status if a setup turn is needed…)

* Related to the above, but there are two notable Mementos quest weapons that are potentially useful: Envy Chain for Panther (30%? chance of Despair) and Prophet's Hand for Queen (30%? chance of Brainwash.).  Both sometimes opt for stall strategies, so healing and fishing for an I-win status isn't a terrible plan.  Note that both have awful attack values which make them terrible in-game (less damage on AOAs), though.

* Where are the status hit rates for the boss moves coming from?  Is that raw hit rate before being adjusted by PC luck or the like?  Their hit rate for me has been a tad worse than hyped.  I think Black Mask batted 0/4 with Negative Pile, and Sphinx Swipe was like 5/16 in Dizzy hit rate.  Maybe I was just lucky, of course.  (I think Famine's Scream had an okay hit rate at least!)

--
In the realm of extreme nitpicks:
* It's not "whoever fired the ballista most recently" requires an extra turn for Riddler, it's "anyone who's fired it ever."  (Note that if you have the Star confidant at level 1 or better, you can hypothetically swap in fresh meat at the cost of a Joker turn, at least, if you want more than 3x speedy firings.) 

(EDIT) * Also, during Unholy Convergeance, Char-Tomb takes double damage or so.  Makes it really easy to blast through that phase and not see the ultimate attack.

--
And as far as general questions:
* Someone in IRC chat claimed that Rakukaja (and thus presumably Heat Riser as well) was "only" a -40% reduction in damage (aka still busted).  Anyone confirm whether it's 50% or 40%?  (Guess it can be tested easily enough, I suppose.)

--

* Also, more on Joker - short version, could you add a no-Nataraja Ongyo-Ki stats in, for SCIENCE if nothing else?  (Totally optional!  Not a big deal at all.)

Longer version: Hmm.  I get that the idea is to have an L75ish persona for a "fair" competition with the rest of the cast, but I think that an equal-level *Joker* would perhaps be better?  Thanks to Arcana Burst XP bonuses and a minimum of 1x Gallows, L75 Joker is really packing an L80-81 Persona, and I'd be willing to hold that against the cast.  I guess the current L76 Throne sorta balances out as is because it has Joker w/ Tyrant Pistol & Paradise Lost, which I wouldn't hold against the cast, which adds some compensatory stats anyway to give Throne a bit more punch.  Checking, seems like Baal, Ongyo-Ki, and Sandalphon are all L75 Personas at base, so they might be interesting alternate "defaults."  I suspect Ongyo-Ki might be the "best" of that set, at least with no Skill Inheritance / Skill cards?  Doesn't need to worry about fusing in an Element Amp, and has Arms Master Myriad Slashes to wreck face with.  To the extent there's any kind of physical elemental / skills baked into endurance values, that Persona also packs Firm Stance & Phys / Gun resistance, so solid from that perspective as well.  That said, this is just theorycraft, so don't worry too much about it.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 07:07:09 AM by SnowFire »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2017, 01:04:28 AM »
A few mostly status-related comments:

* Shock's duration is definitely, 100%, a single turn.  I double-checked.  So per the PG thread, the Shock gun -> Charge -> God's Hand combo for Skull hyped above doesn't work (barring a ludicrously slow enemy).  Shock -> GH is still kosher though.  Makes Orochi SP a little less important for Queen as well.  (On the other hand, Freeze DOES last 2 turns, so that's a better status if a setup turn is needed…)

Okay, so Inari's actually completely terrible. Makoto doesn't like losing the option either, none of her other turn one status options decide fights as strongly as Shock would if it lasted two turns, but she still swings Heavy.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

OblivionKnight

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Re: You'll Never See it Coming!!!
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2017, 02:16:37 PM »
Real life sucks, I miss the topic :(

1) Shock...should be 2 turns.  I remember testing this, and all the ailments were 2 turns barring downed (until next turn) and despair (which...still technically lasts 2 turns, then kills you).  What shadows did you use it on?  I know some have Fast Heal, so that may be an issue.  I checked on Qliphoth World targets, and I remember specifically trying the Shock --> Charge --> God's Hand combo.  Checking online sources...well, some say 1 turn, some say 2, but the 1 turn duration sites also say freeze is 1 turn, so...bleh.  I know freeze breaks if attacked; shock may be the same way?  I'll have time to really check later in the week a few things I've been meaning to do, so I'll look at it again. 

2) I didn't add them since both of them have better gun options (although if you disallow the Wild Hunt, it would be Panther's only way to inflict despair), although I may very well add them in for completion.  There are a few other weapons like that.

4) The ailments I need to go back and edit a bit for bosses.  Originally, was testing them via in-game accuracy, but it appears that, like the Reaper tries to, they like to target more prone targets (although damage takes priority over the ailments, so physical ailments, like Negative Pile, may target the frailer PC with better ailment resistance, such as Panther or Mona), so that could be part of the problem.  Also, small numbers of tests on the "average" targets I'd like to use.  It's probably easiest to go for the base hit rates.  Lu adjustment...most bosses have above average Lu, though I've used higher levels for them (god damnit people, my levels are first too low, now they're too high?  Make up your mind!), so that balances a little.  Most MT ailments should be around 40-50%, ST around 80-90%.  Damage ailments are little different, but I think they're about 30-50%.  I think I have a better handle of some of the ailment accuracy stuff, so I can update those overall.  Helps a few PCs (Skull, Fox), at least, too.  There appears to be a cap on ailment accuracy - I think it's 95% (or it could be 99%, but 95% seems more in line with the evasion stuff too, so...).  I'm open to discussion on this.

5) Huh, guess I never got that far into the fight.  Interesting to note about the ballista. 

6) Hah, I didn't notice that for Unholy Convergence.  Makes that even shittier (but hey, at least the first form in that chain is excellent).

7) It's looked like 50% every time I've looked at it - variance is ~10%, so that could be it.  P3 and P4 it was less for sure, around the 30-40% mark.  Something I can keep testing once I get around to it.

8) Yes, I want to add some more, since the general thoughts from people (well, mostly Snow-squared) is that high level stuff is disallowed.  As for what persona for Joker to hold against the cast...well, Baal, Sandalphon, and Ongyo-ki are all reasonable.  I would generally prefer not to use one that is a max confidant (so, of those, probably Baal, who is already listed) that doesn't auto-level.  I'm still not a huge fan of forcing the cast to fight against those level averages, but it is an in-game thing, so I can add it in.  At the very least, you can take Joker against them, and hold the rest of the cast to Throne averages, or something.   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, a thought I had, now that I've seen the views of others: I want to rebuild the topic a bit, and wanted to get some feedback on the best way to make that look.  I asked about this a bit earlier, but now again here is a question:

1) For Joker persona stats, since they are completely random, I think I'm going to normalize them.  For this, I want to do either of the following:
- Even distribution followed by adding any remaining stat points to the personas highest starting stats.  For example, a persona with starting stats of 51/51/51/50/50 that needs 5 levels to gain their last skill would have stats of 54/54/54/53/53.  If they needed 6 levels, their stats would be 55/55/55/53/53.
- Run ratio growths for all personas.  I explained this earlier in the topic.  More work, and probably comes out similar to the above, but is probably more true?  I don't know.

I came to this thought after looking at stats again, and seeing that some got skewed (Yoshitsune got really luck in all those 10 runs with his Ag...).  I think this is more accurate overall, too, and consistent, given the random nature of stat growth.  If you allow full stat control with sacrifice, then this matters less.  This won't take a terribly long time, but probably won't be done until next week or so.

2) Lots of personas to add, but should I add some details on inheritance?  Like, what do people allow with the Isolation Chamber, Sacrifice skill transfer, etc.?  What needs added to make this more complete?

3) I'm going to revamp the listings too, so that there's more detail in one post (also, need to consolidate a bit, since there are only 5 sequential posts).  Any requests are appreciated.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory