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Author Topic: Futurama 2017 Week 1  (Read 2648 times)

Cmdr_King

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Futurama 2017 Week 1
« on: December 05, 2017, 12:32:00 AM »
Godlike

Palace 7 Boss (Persona 5) vs Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue)
Nyarlathotep (Persona 2: Eternal Punishment) vs Xorn (Grandia III)
Georg Weissman (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC) vs Berle (Star Ocean: The Second Story)
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III)

Heavy

Celica (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) vs Materia Keeper (Final Fantasy VII
Camilla (Fire Emblem: Fates) vs Empoleon (Pokémon)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy Dimensions) vs Shadow (Final Fantasy VI)
Mimikyu (Pokémon) vs Hugo (Suikoden III)

Middle

Haru Okumura (Persona 5) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword)
Tolten (Lost Odyssey) vs Nino (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword)
Kevin Graham (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd) vs Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII)
Katarina Lauren (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Setzer (Final Fantasy VI)


Light

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1)
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)  vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)
Makoto Sako (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2) vs Rahal (Suikoden V)
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
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Random Consonant

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 01:24:05 AM »
Godlike

Palace 7 Boss (Persona 5) vs Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue) - Really don't think so unless we're talking EBO here.
Nyarlathotep (Persona 2: Eternal Punishment) vs Xorn (Grandia III) - Pass.
Georg Weissman (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC) vs Berle (Star Ocean: The Second Story) - Weissman is bad against other bosses kneejerk
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III) - Dragon Claw does it?  Sure, ok then, fall into the status hell.

Heavy

Camilla (Fire Emblem: Fates) vs Empoleon (Pokémon) - I mean Empoleon shouldn't be in heavy since no one nommed him there but that doesn't really change Bolt Axe wrecking
Mimikyu (Pokémon) vs Hugo (Suikoden III) - Probably, Mimikyu damage apparently not all that great and the fire weakness is a thing so Hugo should be able to outslug.

Middle

Haru Okumura (Persona 5) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword) - Makarakarn, fire grenades, collect victoly (or just outslug under Heat Riser really)
Kevin Graham (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd) vs Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) - 3rd specifically?  Gorgon Arrow.
Katarina Lauren (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Setzer (Final Fantasy VI)


Light

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1)
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)  vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)
Makoto Sako (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2) vs Rahal (Suikoden V) - Surely can't be as bad as Rahal.
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) - surely she can survive the OPB shot of damage
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 04:51:09 PM by Random Consonant »

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 03:41:37 AM »
Palace 7 Boss (Persona 5) vs Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue)
I just might be tempted to allow the full formchain vs. Zophar, but pretty sure if he starts at phase 4 (Bane) he just loses, even if Zophar's ultimate doom move of doom is capped at 3x PCHP or something.  Medium-damage but high-HP bosses are just what Zophar eats for breakfast.  P7 boss kinda bullshit (giant HP of doooom!) but Zophar's a rare counter I think, Debilitate doesn't matter if his damage is such overkill that's still at the cap even afterward.
Nyarlathotep (Persona 2: Eternal Punishment) vs Xorn (Grandia III)
Georg Weissman (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC) vs Berle (Star Ocean: The Second Story)
A slapfest that escaped from Middle.  I don't really respect Berle at all, but surely he can manage this, Weissmann vs. non-mages.
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III)
I think Silent Lake just wrecks Ben?  He needs Dragon Claw hype to win here.  Chris should 3HKO or 4HKO Ben even through his great Def I suspect if she adds a Phoenix at the end, and Ben can't 5HKO with his physical.

Heavy

Celica (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) vs Materia Keeper (Final Fantasy VII)
RIP Heavy.  Go first, double Hell Combo, or if that doesn't win, then Trine -> Hell Combo is surely a kill too.  Celica needs to both survive 2x Hell Combo AND...  I dunno, have Ragnarok Omega not count as Fire, and have crappy MK HP respect or something, not that she'd have the HP left to use it.  (Hilariously enough, in the alternate dimension where Celica has 3x her HP or something and can slug with Excalibur, MK is annoyed that Trine is MT...  Celica's ranged counter is Fire, which would heal MK and damage Celica in the process.)
Camilla (Fire Emblem: Fates) vs Empoleon (Pokémon)
Empoleon in Heavy...?  Bolt Axe has a field day here.

Middle

Haru Okumura (Persona 5) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword)
Loses to Makarakarn, loses to Heat Riser anyway (if given Last Strike, which I do).
Kevin Graham (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd) vs Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII)
Well, Squall would beat the SC form at least, since I let FF8 equip status blockers and he doesn't care about Silence while blocking Confuse...


Light

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1)
By Dhyer's numbers, I believe Aurora just baaaaaaarely misses the 2HKO here (comes out 0.54 PCHP damage after pricing in Luc's MDef, although it can be argued it's less potent vs. higher damage).  Even if you let Aurora 2HKO, she's slow, Luc getting a double turn is very bad.

Makoto Sako (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2) vs Rahal (Suikoden V)
What fail.  Rahal spoils SMT elements, Makoto halves ice/water, so no Sword of Water / spell hype here!  (Well, except for Holy Dance...  maybe).  Anyway, Rahal's getting outsped as usual, and is frailer than you'd think, so at worst Makoto can go Berserk -> 2x basic physicals to deal with his, like, 5HKO to average.  She's even pretty slow herself, but...  Rahal.

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 03:49:28 AM »
Godlike

Palace 7 Boss (Persona 5) vs Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue) - I have and will continue to always see Fate Storm as Lunar 2's version of Instant Death.
Nyarlathotep (Persona 2: Eternal Punishment) vs Xorn (Grandia III) - Blehhh Xorn is probably faster? I'll come back to this one.
Georg Weissman (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC) vs Berle (Star Ocean: The Second Story) - I personally allow the whole formchain, which assuredly wears down Berle. If it comes to it then Berle FALLS THROUGH THE FLOOR. YES.
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III) - Ben is probably fast enough to get a Flare off before Silent Lake resolves, but I don't know if that matters.

Heavy

Celica (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) vs Materia Keeper (Final Fantasy VII
Camilla (Fire Emblem: Fates) vs Empoleon (Pokémon)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy Dimensions) vs Shadow (Final Fantasy VI)
Mimikyu (Pokémon) vs Hugo (Suikoden III) - I will let experts handle this one.

Middle

Haru Okumura (Persona 5) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword)
Tolten (Lost Odyssey) vs Nino (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword)
Kevin Graham (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd) vs Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) - I am very liberal about Orbments, so this isn't really a hard choice.
Katarina Lauren (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Setzer (Final Fantasy VI)


Light

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1)
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)  vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)
Makoto Sako (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2) vs Rahal (Suikoden V)
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2017, 05:58:37 AM »
Red Mage (Final Fantasy Dimensions) vs Shadow (Final Fantasy VI)

This is a fun match-up. Red Mage Aegis is all about a wide toolkit, and Shadow is all about toolkit denial.

Shadow has that nifty Memento Ring, blocking RM's easy win with Break/Stoning Slash. Shadow can also use Blink to invalidate the Spellblades, nerfing RM's best damage. Aegis ends up with 6~7HKO using Chain Magic: Bio, depending on if Poison status procs there. Shadow, on the other hand, has an ITD 2HKO.

If Shadow opens with Blink, then RM is forced to use Spells to inflict status, which cast slightly slower. Can Shadow 2HKO before RM gets off a spell? Probably not. Definitely not if he opens with Blink. Shadow can block Transform and Confuse with White Cape, but RM still has Sleep/Drowsy Blade, which is usually going to land on the first try.

Drowsy Blade still runs the risk of hitting Dog Block, though. So RM's safest option is the Sleep spell. Sleep has a +.25 casting time, and RM is roughly average speed. So then the question becomes: does Shadow get two turns before a 1.25x average speed turn? If so, then he wins. If not, then RM gets off Chain Magic: Sleep+Cura and whittles him down with Bio/Drowsy Slash, reapplying Sleep status as needed.

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2017, 08:18:19 AM »
Godlike

Nyarlathotep (Persona 2: Eternal Punishment) vs Xorn (Grandia III)- The speed is too much since Nyarly is just hitting the TB cap. Nyarly has better HP, but Xorn is so slouch there and
Georg Weissman (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC) vs Berle (Star Ocean: The Second Story)- Weissman's Godlike ranking is based on 2 things: spoiling PCs super hard and spoiling magic super hard.
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III)- Chris' evasion isn't quite enough to deal with Dragon Claw

Middle
Tolten (Lost Odyssey) vs Nino (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword)- Any Middle versus Nino will generally go this way
Kevin Graham (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd) vs Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII)- Is this the 3rd game only? In that case, can't vote

Light
Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1)- I'm don't even think allowing Iggy tips this
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics) vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
...into the nightfall.

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2017, 12:40:47 PM »
Godlike

Palace 7 Boss (Persona 5) vs Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue) - Yeah, I'm not inclined to see Fate Storm as ID, so Zophar gets his win.
Nyarlathotep (Persona 2: Eternal Punishment) vs Xorn (Grandia III) - And the speed here insures that I cannot vote for Persona bosses this day.
Georg Weissman (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC) vs Berle (Star Ocean: The Second Story)
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III) - Can she kill before SL runs out? I think she can.

Heavy

Celica (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) vs Materia Keeper (Final Fantasy VII
Camilla (Fire Emblem: Fates) vs Empoleon (Pokémon) - I love that Bolt Axe hype is a thing today.
Red Mage (Final Fantasy Dimensions) vs Shadow (Final Fantasy VI)
Mimikyu (Pokémon) vs Hugo (Suikoden III) - Looks fun, but I will come back to you.

Middle

Haru Okumura (Persona 5) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword) - Reflect embarrassing Nergal more than usual.
Tolten (Lost Odyssey) vs Nino (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword) - How is Tolten a Middle?
Kevin Graham (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd) vs Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII)
Katarina Lauren (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Setzer (Final Fantasy VI) - Katarina is on the right side of average speed and durability. She also has turn 2 Paralysis, which Setzer doesn't block unless you're allowing Ribbon (and even then it's questionable since Ribbon doesn't prevent FF6 Stop). She also 3HKOs before Setzer does. Shame she doesn't get to use her fun weapon-stealing counterstance on him, though.


Light

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1)
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)  vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)
Makoto Sako (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2) vs Rahal (Suikoden V)
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) - Strange to think that Lyonesse is the Futurama dueler here.

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2017, 02:07:34 PM »
Palace 7 Boss (Persona 5) vs Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue) - Char Aznable can deal with EBO Zophar.
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III) - Inclined to agree with Dhyer here. Chris can't really blitz Benjamin before he lands physical status hell.

Haru Okumura (Persona 5) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword) - Makarakarn completely wrecks any chance Nergal has here. Depending on how you see the turn flow past the first turn, Nergal might even have a shot against Haru without Makara (though it ain't -good-, evade and Haru being able to circumvent counters doesn't help his case), but he can do zilch against magic reflect.
Katarina Lauren (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Setzer Gabianni (Final Fantasy VI) - Goes first, 3HKOs. Setzer uh 4HKOs on average, that ain't working.

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1) - 2HKOs first.
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)  vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones) - Yeah, I think so?
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) - Sure, I buy Lyonesse surviving a Petal Blast.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 11:02:39 PM »
Godlike

Palace 7 Boss (Persona 5) vs Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue)- No vote.
Nyarlathotep (Persona 2: Eternal Punishment) vs Xorn (Grandia III)
Georg Weissman (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC) vs Berle (Star Ocean: The Second Story)
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III)- No vote.

Heavy

Celica (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) vs Materia Keeper (Final Fantasy VII)
Camilla (Fire Emblem: Fates) vs Empoleon (Pokémon)- Bolt Axe is a thing in FE14?  Bah.
Red Mage (Final Fantasy Dimensions) vs Shadow (Final Fantasy VI)
Mimikyu (Pokémon) vs Hugo (Suikoden III)- bleh, shoulda gone with my first instinct and set this as Geddoe.

Middle

Haru Okumura (Persona 5) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword)- No vote.
Tolten (Lost Odyssey) vs Nino (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword)
Kevin Graham (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd) vs Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII)
Katarina Lauren (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Setzer (Final Fantasy VI)- No vote.


Light

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1)
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)  vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)
Makoto Sako (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2) vs Rahal (Suikoden V)
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 11:10:38 PM by Cmdr_King »
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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2017, 07:29:28 AM »
Godlike

Char Aznable (Persona 5) vs Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue) - This fight is entirely on interpretation.  Do you take EBO or EBC Zophar?  Do you allow full Char Aznable form-chain (and if not, how much of one?)?  Do you allow Zophar form-chain?  Do you see Makarakarn getting Hell Storm/Fate Wave?  Do you see Zophar as one part or multiple parts?  So many different things that have to be taken in to account for this fight.  Assuming the DL standard is still to limit Zophar to just 1 part (from the 3rd phase of the fight), this probably goes to Char?  Since Fate Wave/Hell Storm is blocked by White Dragon Protect in-game, I'd probably think Makarakarn gets it to most?  Then he just spams Makarakarn + attack until Zophar dies.  My views...probably give it to Zophar, since both get a form-chain, but Zophar with multiple parts shreds the Makarakarn strategy.  Going with Char since this is a Futurama, so need to see him
Nyarlathotep (Persona 2: Eternal Punishment) vs Xorn (Grandia III) - Need to update those notes in the topic (I have them!  Just...haven't done that yet, waiting to finish the whole revamp first).  I allow the Nyarlathotep form-chain, so that helps buffer the damage a bit.  Shadow Kill always has, and always will, hurt like a mother.  Just straight Shadow Kill does it (of course, also helps I don't allow EXAs unless both games allow them, so...).  With speed and EXAs, really depends on how much you take turn-based vs. EXA-able speed - Nyarlathotep is fast, his AGI is like 1.5x average or so.  Even with using different personas and assuming more buffing, it's still like 1.25x, so Xorn is only getting 2-1.  Depends on damage considerations too - fusions will kill him faster, but you should give him more speed respect then.  Another fun interpretation game!
Georg Weissman (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC) vs Berle (Star Ocean: The Second Story) - Someday, Legend of Heroes.  Soon.
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III) - CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Heavy

Celica (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) vs Materia Keeper (Final Fantasy VII)
Camilla (Fire Emblem: Fates) vs Empoleon (Pokémon)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy Dimensions) vs Shadow (Final Fantasy VI) - Blah.
Mimikyu (Pokémon) vs Hugo (Suikoden III) - Not difficult, Heavy

Middle

Haru Okumura (Persona 5) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword) - For added fun, equip Grudge Gauze, tank through Nergal with Heat Riser.  But Makarakarn does it. 
Tolten (Lost Odyssey) vs Nino (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword)
Kevin Graham (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd) vs Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) - DAMN YOU LEGENDS I WILL PLAY YOU SOON
Katarina Lauren (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Setzer (Final Fantasy VI)


Light

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1) - S1 only?  Eh, sure.  I'll give him 1/3 of his S3 form then.  Wins easily.
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)  vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones) - Loses to prologue Seth, though
Makoto Sako (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2) vs Rahal (Suikoden V)
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) - SLRPG form
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 09:05:31 AM »
Cases like Zophar vs. Palace 7 boss, where P7 boss eventually gets 2 actions in-game and Zophar probably gets 3 at the start of the fight, are an excellent example of why to not limit subparts!  Since actual Zophar would be extremely good at getting around that kind of cheeze even if taken perfectly literally.  (Also obligatory point that everyone votes SH3 Lady as a High Godlike, not a crappy Heavy that she'd be limited to 1 part.)

Elf researched Lunar2 White Dragon Protect awhile back, and it basically stops ANYTHING.  Which is why people thought Zophar was all magical for so long, it's a change from Lunar 1.  Zophar actually has physical moves he can use that hit defense.  (Impossible to tell for his ultimate move of doom of course because subtractive defense is so laughable against it.)

Enemy Makarakarn is absolute shit in P5 and deserves negative respect.  By lategame (i.e. Palace 7) absolutely every character nulls their own element (Confidant rank permitting, but if you failed to L10 someone, it's probably because you weren't planning on using them anyway), so unless you're forgetful with Joker's persona, it's just a joke.  I know that some people recommend scaling down such boss reflection moves to 1/(party members) in the DL, which is really artificial, but would make Makarakarn strats appropriately powered - it just trims off 1/4 of the damage assuming it's even counted as magical.

Amusingly enough, I think your other P5 boss nom (Palace 5 boss) would wreck Zophar - the early bots would give up extra turns and die quickly, but then you get the elementally-resistant ones that stop some of the MT damage, and Zophar's damage gets debuffed off Tarunda, and a slow blow-up-one-bot-really-hard move gets less inspiring.  Zophar isn't THAT durable so once things turn bad, they stay bad.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 09:09:05 AM by SnowFire »

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 02:56:55 PM »
Zophar's ultimate move of doom is magic; Lunar 2 random variance is absolute rather than relative so the fact that it does more damage to Leo than Lemina is visible, if irrelevant.

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 03:18:07 PM »
The thing is, the magic question is what matters - the Beast of Human Sacrifice reflects physical and gun damage.  Zophar has to use magic to damage him, and if you see Makarakarn getting his stuff (clearly the elemental stuff, I'd assume, Hell Storm/Fate Wave and Gold Flash and...whatever else he has, need to double-check...the other stuff is the questionable material). 

I've always gone with the multiple parts thing (take them as they are in-game), but the standard for a long time (and still?) is to limit to one part, but give support credit and all skills to the one part.  That tends to really screw them over vs. this type of situation (has come up before). 

The question of "respect" is...really subjective.  I would prefer to take a straight objective view, if you're going into an analysis of each fight.  Yes, it makes some things ridiculously good, moreso than you might prefer or really think in-game, but that's kind of the standard for the DL concept as a whole and a lot of games run into the same issue.  Pushing the respect thing as an issue, to me, gets really really subjective.  So much so to the point that I'd probably just say "vote your conscience" at that point, and say screw the analysis - Zophar's boobs are sexier than Char, so...go him!  Taking it the way you stated (where it cuts damage by 25%) is completely ignoring how it works.  I'd argue that's not even how it PRACTICALLY works, because the skill is a straight reflection of magic damage that targets the attackers defenses on reflection.  It's not a damage reduction skill (Rakukaja, Tarunda do that).  You can take one person into battle, and Makarakarn will work that exact way every time, just like it would in this situation.  While I...I do see what you're trying to get at, it's super subjective and doesn't reflect how it works in-game, which seems anathema to the DL concept as a whole. 

The main thing here is what gets hit by Makarakarn.  Do you see Hell Storm/Fate Wave or other skills (Gold Flash) as almighty equivalents that get around Makarakarn?  I didn't realize that about WDP, so that makes the question a bit more of an interpretation issue again.  If you view Fate Wave/Hell Storm as insta-death equivalents, it screws Zophar hard - if they're in play, he probably takes it from sheer damage (it probably pushes him Char into Tomb of Human Sacrifice immediately, or just kills him - if you allow the full 5 form-chain, he may have a chance, but it's tight, since the last 2 forms require some damage to get going, and Zophar can bust past them fast...you'd have to hope a Tyrant's Glare combo kills at the end).
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 05:11:38 PM »
Quote
The question of "respect" is...really subjective.  I would prefer to take a straight objective view, if you're going into an analysis of each fight.  Yes, it makes some things ridiculously good, moreso than you might prefer or really think in-game, but that's kind of the standard for the DL concept as a whole and a lot of games run into the same issue.  Pushing the respect thing as an issue, to me, gets really really subjective.  So much so to the point that I'd probably just say "vote your conscience" at that point, and say screw the analysis - Zophar's boobs are sexier than Char, so...go him!  Taking it the way you stated (where it cuts damage by 25%) is completely ignoring how it works.  I'd argue that's not even how it PRACTICALLY works, because the skill is a straight reflection of magic damage that targets the attackers defenses on reflection.  It's not a damage reduction skill (Rakukaja, Tarunda do that).  You can take one person into battle, and Makarakarn will work that exact way every time, just like it would in this situation.  While I...I do see what you're trying to get at, it's super subjective and doesn't reflect how it works in-game, which seems anathema to the DL concept as a whole.

This is pretty dishonest reasoning IMO.  Advantages should translate from ingame to the DL, bosses using one-shot damage reflection/shields to gain immunity to damage forever openly does not because the only way that would be ever constantly true ingame would be if the player intentionally crippled themself which is something that's about as reasonable to assume as fighting all bosses at the lowest possible level.  It's hardly "completely ignoring" how it works and respect has precious little to do with it, if something can be reasonably overcome ingame, it should be able to be reasonably overcome in the DL, system-based gimmicks notwithstanding.

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2017, 06:17:05 PM »
Godlike

Palace 7 Boss (Persona 5) vs Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue) - can't vote
Nyarlathotep (Persona 2: Eternal Punishment) vs Xorn (Grandia III) - can't vote but see below
Georg Weissman (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC) vs Berle (Star Ocean: The Second Story) - can't vote
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III) - claw bs does it's job

Heavy

Celica (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) vs Materia Keeper (Final Fantasy VII) - can't vote
Camilla (Fire Emblem: Fates) vs Empoleon (Pokémon) - bolt axe or just some kind of lightning magic, surely.
Red Mage (Final Fantasy Dimensions) vs Shadow (Final Fantasy VI) - can't vote
Mimikyu (Pokémon) vs Hugo (Suikoden III) - sleep works

Middle

Haru Okumura (Persona 5) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword) - makarakarn vs pure mage
Tolten (Lost Odyssey) vs Nino (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword) - can't vote
Kevin Graham (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd) vs Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII) - can't vote
Katarina Lauren (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Setzer (Final Fantasy VI) - can't vote


Light

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1) - can't vote
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)  vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones) - can't vote
Makoto Sako (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2) vs Rahal (Suikoden V) - rahal.txt
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) - can't vote

----------

Re: Xorn vs Nyarly, I have some second hand breakdown via a lurking toro

<xorn-depressiongataosenai> nyarly on the other hand legit rolls up and stomps xorn into the dirt so. (Nyarly speed depends on how you see P2 speed working in general but at best Xorn alternates trading turns with 2-1ing him - Xorn->Nyarly->Xorn->Xorn->Nyarly->Xorn->Nyarly, etc - and any higher respect for "Moves faster than fucking Ulala the speed demon - consistently! - probably makes doubles even rarer for Xorn). Nyarly's defenses are ..."good"?
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> kind of an understatement, OK, he basically has "resist: all" appended to him. the HP and durability combo of the final form alone is... frightening. Xorn's probably around 1.6x HP to me, slightly lower to phys which is Nyarly's preference. Nyarly does  1.44 to baseline with two Shadow kills and 2.16 with three, so Xorn has end cap of 4 turns to me and... death knell doesn't trigger in time looks like? so would need at
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> best 3x  Dark Hymn + Dimension Gate to kill, which ... does about 2.14 HP damage, which haha fuck no not against Nyarly. Nyarly curbstomps hard here. (I would guess Nyarly at... probably around 3x HP at an absolute low end. Full team damage should hit around 2k on him via two fusions each round, he has 18k HP, ... actually 2.5x damage killpoint would put him at 3.5x, even more safely out of reach. this shouldn't double
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> credit his resistance either. i dunno how others factor that in but... yeah.)
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> Massive TB? disrespect/P2 speed disrespect could maybe lose Nyarly the match but it would take far more than I'm comfortable with.
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> (and I'm pretty sure doubles are a thing in game but god P2 speed is wonk)
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> in short yeah don't agree with xorn hype against someone twice as durable with not that much worse speed that can hit the right defense hard enough to bring xorn down fast.
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> but nyarly durability is obscene so
<Gatewalker> want me to paste this breakdown into the thread?
<Gatewalker> fuck if I know how that match turns out as I can't vote on it
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> if you'd like, sure
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> basically nyarly has resist: all (maybe not vs. holy, but i forget, it's annoying to hit holy res in that game and usually not effective) and... any durability that sees Xorn killing first would be way the hell too low offhand. and this is presuming no formchain. (the formchain is ... i forget how legal it is, i remember i don't use it but I have weird standards)).
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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2017, 07:53:55 PM »
Quote
The question of "respect" is...really subjective.  I would prefer to take a straight objective view, if you're going into an analysis of each fight.  Yes, it makes some things ridiculously good, moreso than you might prefer or really think in-game, but that's kind of the standard for the DL concept as a whole and a lot of games run into the same issue.  Pushing the respect thing as an issue, to me, gets really really subjective.  So much so to the point that I'd probably just say "vote your conscience" at that point, and say screw the analysis - Zophar's boobs are sexier than Char, so...go him!  Taking it the way you stated (where it cuts damage by 25%) is completely ignoring how it works.  I'd argue that's not even how it PRACTICALLY works, because the skill is a straight reflection of magic damage that targets the attackers defenses on reflection.  It's not a damage reduction skill (Rakukaja, Tarunda do that).  You can take one person into battle, and Makarakarn will work that exact way every time, just like it would in this situation.  While I...I do see what you're trying to get at, it's super subjective and doesn't reflect how it works in-game, which seems anathema to the DL concept as a whole.

This is pretty dishonest reasoning IMO.  Advantages should translate from ingame to the DL, bosses using one-shot damage reflection/shields to gain immunity to damage forever openly does not because the only way that would be ever constantly true ingame would be if the player intentionally crippled themself which is something that's about as reasonable to assume as fighting all bosses at the lowest possible level.  It's hardly "completely ignoring" how it works and respect has precious little to do with it, if something can be reasonably overcome ingame, it should be able to be reasonably overcome in the DL, system-based gimmicks notwithstanding.


Not sure what you mean by "dishonest" reasoning, but I think we're talking about slightly different concepts.  I agree that advantages should translate from in-game to DL, but that shouldn't involve modifying the mechanics.  In my mind, if it's a straightforward reflection skill, it should work as a straightforward reflection skill.  Saying that Makarakarn would be seen as a 1/4 damage reduction is completely ignoring how it actually works, mechanically.  Yes, the argument for being an "in-game" representation is not lost on me...but that's getting a little subjective (Why not say it's ineffective then and ignore it completely?  Everyone has a basic attack that can get around it.  Even if it's not relevant for this particular case, it's relevant in general...), and I could see that logic applying to a lot more than that, which becomes a little murky.  This, again, could be purely from a difference of viewpoint in how I'm looking at things.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

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[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2017, 08:32:45 PM »
Sure, but ultimately a 1:1 conversion from ingame reality to DL convention isn't realistically achieveable (or at least not something I imagine most people are inclined to try) so something has to give and at least in this case people generally prefer going by the practical ingame effect rather than the underlying mechanics, even if it involves making a somewhat gross oversimplification.  It's not really ignoring rather than trying to reconcile conflicting notions, which is what provoked the dishonest statement (it's possible that I could've phrased that better, but ah well).

(I don't really have a dog in this particular fight anyways since I hold Char to forms 4/5, just felt like commenting.)

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2017, 09:11:58 PM »
When we say Nyarly basically has resist all, does that mean that his defenses are so good that they cut about 2/3 (I think that's what resist all did?) off all damage?
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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2017, 10:42:19 PM »
* xorn-depressiongataosenai checks the futurama topic. 1/2 to 2/3rd would be my recollection as to his damage shaving. One notable skill has high set damage so it bypasses this, IIRC. But yes we're talking that significant. That's my recollection at least (he is a goddamn slog of a fight and one of the few bosses durable enough to consistently punish Maya if she's running a phys-weak persona) and the one FAQ talking about the final fight in any detail also mentions fusion damage dropping drastically, even compared to just his first form.
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> Guido (the only other boss with Strong: All) features similar levels of "no shut up" damage resistance.
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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2017, 02:43:08 AM »
I think it's just a difference in opinions, and how literal things get interpreted.  I understand the concept and desire, but I just think it can get a bit arbitrary potentially, taken a bit too far.  When I'm doing analysis, I try to do a 1:1 conversion as best I can.  I get trying to give some benefit to systems that work in-game and don't translate well, as well as the opposite, I just.  Too different lines or reasoning, both valid if you view things that way. 


As for Nyarly...uh...he's not Strong: All.  Guido's the only boss who is.  Nyarlathotep is a form-chain, which helps (I think your buffs get need recast, but HP and SP stay the same, with no transition to the menu screen between them).  First form (Moon Howler) varies based on how you answered the scenarios to restore Lisa and Eikichi's memories: HP is 8160-9560, defense ranging from slightly above average to solidly above.  Always Void: Dark/Almighty/Nerve/Mind.  Has weaknesses in his weakest forms - both water and wind if you restored neither memory, just wind if you restored just one, and none if you restored them both.  Moon Howler's skillset also changes, but always contains Shadow Kill and Unperishable Black, with possible additional skills including Megidolaon, Guard Punish, and Omega Cluster.  Crawling Chaos is a bit different - no weaknesses, Void: Dark/Nerve/Mind.  His defenses are significantly higher than other enemies in the area (actually, highest in the game) - ends up being about 35% reduction on both sides.  Fusions help break that with their multipliers (so you'll still see 1000+ damage skills), but again, they slow things down.  18000 HP goes down fairly slowly as such, unless you're packing high level personas with Hieros Glupaine, etc.  For this fight, again, all he really cares about is Shadow Kill anyway.  If you allow the form-chain, it's a very easy win.  Moon Howler is a constant 66 AGI, which is...above average.  Crawling Chaos is 85 AGI, which is, again, pretty close to 1.5x average, depending on build (DL-build, no more, maybe a bit less; normal in-game, higher, since you're replacing AGI boosts at level-up for TEC, etc.).  It's turn-based speed, but still respectable. 


If he were Strong: All, you'd be seeing a 75% reduction or so in damage. 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 03:24:56 AM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2017, 05:51:43 AM »
To add on to the above, if you are willing to give Zophar multiple actions until the hands are destroyed (pretty reasonable I think unless you want to arbitrarily deny double actions to Samael as well), he has Dispel.  Also, I agree with OK that what counts as Almighty is important, but even if we go with full Makarakarn respect, Zophar's best damage isn't listed as having an element, so he probably sails past Makarakarn anyway.  (It's certainly what you'd do if for some reason you had Joker fighting solo against a Makarakarn spammer.)

Incidentally, I agree that it's a real DL hack to hose shields, since there's certainly lots of areas where mechanics which just suck in-game translate to the DL way too well.  (Weissmann this week is one beneficiary.)  So I'm not even necessarily against interping some stuff literally.  That said, Makarakarn in particular deserves less respect than usual, especially since it's just auto-win if given max respect (very little counts as almighty, reflects all the damage).

In fairness to Palace 7 boss, Zophar's best damage is either an HP limit or unlocks after killing a hand, so it's possible there might be some wacky chip game to be played?  Kinda doubt it though, Zophar's offense is just fine without his best damage.

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2017, 08:43:28 AM »
I must say that while I personally agree with the Snowfire/Random views which nerf one-hit shields on bosses (since they're jokes in-game), it's hardly some crazy unreasonable view to take them as OK does. The DL is at its core a "how good are you in a duel and some moves are just better that way. A boss with an move which is "does 20x PCHP to one target. Boss skips its next 3 turns" would be useless in-game in a typical RPG, but overpowered in the DL by most views (though such an attack would be so egregious that I suspect people would adopt views to nerf it, and I wouldn't fault 'em).

Thaaat said, I'm more inclined to object to the idea that somehow Zophar doesn't have a way through Makarakarn. Blah blah blah no Persona 5 here, but in the SMT games I've played it doesn't stop any non-elemental magic, and the presence of Almighty (which is either almost non-elemental or entirely depending on the game) leaves this as an unambiguous hole in it.

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2017, 07:53:53 PM »
The last lurktoro response re Nyarly

<xorn-depressiongataosenai> also, watched the two ep videos
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> ulala twinkle nebula deals 764-844 under maka kaja, against second form does 322, 304-344 with Maha Maka Kaja confirmed up, 170 after Transient Ripple
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> bao magdyne 340, against second form 276, 260-274 with maha maka kaja up, 135 after transient ripple
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> katsuya garudyne does 698, against second form 286, after maha maka kaja 250-302 (...did the buff carry over? It looks like Maka Kaja actually transfers between forms?????? This doesn't sound right but I never actually used buffs in the fight because fuck Transient Ripple)
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> in short I can't explain why Baofu's damage -didn't- drop but ulala/katsuya are confirming my numbers
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> also maha maka kaja -looks to carry through the transition- which... means the formchain is legal to me, rip xorn even harder
<xorn-depressiongataosenai> xorn-depressiongataosenai> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8oh4UM1Lmw  and   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCkJZTNQzQI are what I'm watching, though notably the latter video he gets nailed by no Persona Swap early on and takes till like 15 minutes in to be able to get Maha Maka Kaja up <-- linking again, though again notably after mahamakakaja his damage didn't go up and it def. dropped after transient ripple

Also, P5 makarakarn does not seem to stop Almighty from what I can see, so yeah there's no way zophar can't slip something through that. Can't legally vote on either of these though
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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2017, 10:37:24 PM »
Godlike

that's a whole lot of nope

Heavy

Celica (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) vs Materia Keeper (Final Fantasy VII): Mmm. We don't have detailed Materia Keeper notes that I can see. Snowfire seems to assume he'll double Celica, but I'm not so convinced; 90 dex at that point is probably like 110-115% before any credit given to FF7 enemies entering turns faster than PCs. Which... I suppose he does win easily if he doubles, and might even if he doesn't, so I'm fine with that as a kneejerk vote. If he doesn't double... yeah, Materia Keeper can probably survive a shot of Seraphim and a sword counter, since his MDef is pretty good.
Camilla (Fire Emblem: Fates) vs Empoleon (Pokémon): To be perfectly honest Camilla wins this just hitting things with normal axes; she doubles and goes first and I doubt Empoleon survives 4 of her hits and a Savage Blow.
Red Mage (Final Fantasy Dimensions) vs Shadow (Final Fantasy VI): Shadow can't block sleep, and that's probably too much. I can assure anyone who cares that FFD status magic is accurate.

Middle

Tolten (Lost Odyssey) vs Nino (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword): Ultimate Hit is listed as 22% speed... but does that still go off round 1? Easy win if so. If not, I'll have to think about this maybe.

Light

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1): I feel like if Dhyer is voting this way, that I should too.
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)  vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones): Arguable MVPs square off in Light, I see. Javelin counters seem like they tip this slugfest, for all that it's close. EDIT: On second thought, Javelins are kinda inaccurate and Seneca has some evade, so she probably gets in a dodge and takes this.
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars): Axem Pink is Puny and basically can't beat anyone with a physical unless they have sub-35% HP.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 06:11:47 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: Futurama 2017 Week 1
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2017, 01:44:51 AM »
Godlike

Palace 7 Boss (Persona 5) vs Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue)
Nyarlathotep (Persona 2: Eternal Punishment) vs Xorn (Grandia III)
Georg Weissman (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky SC) vs Berle (Star Ocean: The Second Story). Formchain
Benjamin (Final Fantasy Mystic Quest) vs Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III): Claw. Status gets through eventually... Petrify?

Heavy

Celica (Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia) vs Materia Keeper (Final Fantasy VII
Camilla (Fire Emblem: Fates) vs Empoleon (Pokémon)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy Dimensions) vs Shadow (Final Fantasy VI)
Mimikyu (Pokémon) vs Hugo (Suikoden III)

Middle

Haru Okumura (Persona 5) vs Nergal (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword)
Tolten (Lost Odyssey) vs Nino (Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword). No.
Kevin Graham (The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd) vs Squall Leonhart (Final Fantasy VIII)
Katarina Lauren (Romancing SaGa 3) vs Setzer (Final Fantasy VI)


Light

Aurora (Child of Light) vs Luc (Suikoden 1). Too bad.
Seneca (Suikoden Tactics)  vs Seth (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)
Makoto Sako (Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 2) vs Rahal (Suikoden V)
Lyonesse (Brigandine) vs Axem Pink (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)