What Games Are You Playing: 2008

[Grefter]

You are going to fucking make me do it on the forums aren't you?  That crap I try to keep to in chat.  You are going to make me do it right here on the forums.

FIRE EMBLEM PLOT.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I hadn't realized that the FE discussion was bothering people. My apologies.

Elfboy: As for Hector, I already conceded 2 posts ago that I shouldn't have called him 'developed' - I didn't mean to drag you into an FE discussion unwillingly. I had assumed you were enjoying posting about one of your favorite games. *shrugs*

Tal: Finally got the Growlanser 5 japanese guide - at a glance it appears there's a lot of useful stats/skill information though I haven't seen a damage formula yet. I'll look a little harder later.

-Djinn

[TranceHime]

@Tallychu - Yeah, the pre-rolled Priest has 9 Strength, uhhh 18~ish Endurance, 31 Dexterity and 45 Wisdom. That strength is pathetic and it greatly affects the accuracy for some reason that I fail to fathom, took me awhile to realize this hence the re-roll. Also key skills are Celerity and Fast Healing >___> well for a solo game.

Heh, strength affects accuracy?  Har.

Yeah, I'd agree Celerity and Fast Healing would be good.  Though... Fast Healing not so much.  The game hands out items like candy.  Use 'em.  Also, the camping feature still exists for between battles.

Honestly I think weapon skill > Celerity > Fast Healing would work?  Maybe Stamina.  More HP -> kill enemy before it kills you -> camp abuse, items for backup.  Either one should work.  Though really, putting points into Parry/Evasion isn't a bad idea either.  Don't need healing if you never get hit~  Seems like the only worthless skills are Resist POIZN, magic (well, they're useful for MAGES), and rogue skills.  Lockpick is pointless because you can just save abuse your lockpicks, but Search is good if you don't know the sekrits, I assume.  Not worth gimping your character for though.

Yes, STR and DEX determine the Combat stat, which is basically accuracy.

Fast Healing? Yeah, I agree, it's not as necessary as Celerity is, since you're always going to want to hit the enemy as quickly as possible. Stamina synergizes well with Fast Healing though, but yeah, I'ma probably prioritize weapon skill first, and I got a level in Parry which partners up well with Celerity, take minimal damage while recovering to attack once again. Same with Evasion. Healing though might be a safety net because sometimes I get hit by a lot and my low Endurance build means I can't afford to lose life and I have lower defense than usual...

[Dark Holy Elf]

Djinn: Oh, I enjoyed it well enough. <_< As you observed it is one of my favourite games, even if I totally rag on one of its aspects. And don't mind Grefter when it comes to Fire Emblem.

[Monkeyfinger]

And don't mind Grefter when it comes to Fire Emblem.

Can't stress this enough. FE7 was one of my least favorite RPGs of that generation and Grefter comes off as a huge butthurt whiner about it even to me.

[Hunter Sopko]

And don't mind Grefter when it comes to Fire Emblem.

Can't stress this enough. FE7 was one of my least favorite RPGs of that generation and Grefter comes off as a huge butthurt whiner about it even to me.

Maybe we could take the term "butthurt whiner" more seriously as an insult from someone who didn't have a giant ass as an avatar.

[Bardiche]

So, just recently replayed Fire Emblem 8. My final team consisted of this:

Tana - Pegasus Knight (because I hate the way Wyverns look) - armed with Vidofnir and Fili Guard. She was my main air force, using Vidofnir to slay all the lesser monsters. Maxed out strength, high speed and defense stats.
Vanessa - Pegasus Knight - armed with Killer Lance and Dragoonspear. Supported Tana by killing whatever threatened Tana. Of course, nothing ever hit either Van or Tan, but just for security.
Colm - Rogue - because stealing is always necessary. Had a Killer Blade and Rune Blade, but didn't strike anything at all. He was mostly there to support...
Neiri - Nomad - armed with the Nidhogg... and A level archery. Was almost at S, didn't get to use Nidhogg after all... But Killer Bow was enough. Nidhogg's just overkill.
Ewan - Sage - armed with Excalibur. He blew away Lyon in two rounds, with no harm to himself. Maxed Speed, Res and Pow.
Amelia - General - armed with Killer Lances. She just supported Ewan. Maxed out Speed and Skill, so was impossible to get hit.
Lute - Sage - armed with the frost spell and Bolting/Mend. Mostly provided back-up assistance for...
Artur - Sage - armed with Ivaldi and Aura. Blasted through everything, but ultimately ended up tanking the Demon Lord after the thing put everyone to sleep. Maxed out HP/Res/Pow.
Eirika - Great Lord - Rapier and her Twin weapon. Didn't land a single blow.
Ephraim - Great Lord - Sigmund. Didn't land a single blow. (was lulled to sleep at the final battle alongside his sister)
Natasha - Valkyrie - Mend, Psychic, Lightning, Hoplon Guard and the Twin staff. Supported everyone, but mostly Amelia/Ewan with healing spells. (Ewan got hit by Lyon, the rest didn't get hit a single time...)
Joshua - Swordmaster - armed with the Audhulma. Didn't land a single strike on Lyon stage, badassly solo'd the Demon Lord in one round on the final fight. Everyone with a legendary weapon but Joshua was out of commission, so someone had to pull through.

Supports were Lute -> Artur A, Ewan -> Amelia A, Colm -> Neimi A, Natasha -> Joshua A, Eirika -> Ephraim A, Tana -> Ephraim B.

Now to beat the game twice more and get those special classes for Ewan, Amelia and Ross... Maybe start using Franz again. Was considering a "cavalry" game with ONLY mounted units. Should be interesting.

Franz(Great Knight), Forde(Great Knight), Kyle(Great Knight), Ephraim(Great Lord), Ewan(Mage Knight), Amelia(Great Knight), Natasha(Valkyrie) should pull me through, right? Otherwise I guess I should have Lute become a Mage Knight, too, or add Tana/Vanessa to the combo.

HEAVEN OR HELL LET'S GO. (suggest me other themes for a replay lol)

[Talaysen]

I hadn't realized that the FE discussion was bothering people. My apologies.

If people don't like it, they can just scroll past it.  Also what they said about Grefter.  Though he is right.  FIRE EMBLEM PLOT applies.

Tal: Finally got the Growlanser 5 japanese guide - at a glance it appears there's a lot of useful stats/skill information though I haven't seen a damage formula yet. I'll look a little harder later.

Well that'd be a huge help regardless.  Getting the core damage formula is likely much easier than trying to figure out exactly how effective and how each skill works.  Ugh.

Yes, STR and DEX determine the Combat stat, which is basically accuracy.

Fast Healing? Yeah, I agree, it's not as necessary as Celerity is, since you're always going to want to hit the enemy as quickly as possible. Stamina synergizes well with Fast Healing though, but yeah, I'ma probably prioritize weapon skill first, and I got a level in Parry which partners up well with Celerity, take minimal damage while recovering to attack once again. Same with Evasion. Healing though might be a safety net because sometimes I get hit by a lot and my low Endurance build means I can't afford to lose life and I have lower defense than usual...

Stamina would synergize less well with Fast Healing than you think if Fast Healing isn't percent based and raw HP based, though.  I THINK it's raw HP, but I'm not sure.  Right now I'm doing a build with focusing everything into 2-H weapons and split the rest between Parry, Evasion, Stamina, Fast Healing, and Celerity.  Seems to be working out pretty well.  Axes OHKO like every random in the game.  >.>

[Excal]

Ah man, FE discussion is over already?  I'll have to make up for the lack here by making some outrageous statements this weekend.  Time to prep gratuitous praise for Ephraim!

On to more serious matters, chugging along on both FF3 and WA3.

FF3 has been seeing a lot of playtime mostly because I've been travelling a lot recently.  Trying some different classes this time in order to see how they've been changed, for all that Thief has been sneaking its way into my lines every now and then, and White Mage continues to be a necessity.  Regardless, the Warrior...  I don't know why you'd ever walk away from it now, especially when it hits around 30-40 Job levels and Advance starts to get into the obscene power growth.  Just finished Goldor's mansion, and with the fact that this is a really good point in the game for swords added in, my Warrior is doing over 50% of the damage in a party with a Monk and a Thief.  That said, one of those two is probably about to be swapped out for a Dragoon before I do my world cruise and then face off against the inestimable Garuda.

WA3: This is also going fairly well as I try to get back to where I was before.  Basically, currently redoing Chapter 2.  Just started the fetch quest to get the second round of mediums, and getting introduced to the new cast of villains.  Sadly, completely forgot that Angolmois was likely built to showcase Grav's use and effectiveness, and so just beat him down in the generic way.  Still wasn't too hard.  Neat thing I've learned?  Clive's Magic is almost as good as Virginia's, which is mildly shocking.  Also useful is Mystic Lucky Card.  As it stands, Lvl 15 after getting Celesdue.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

KH2 - Wow, they actually made Tron -work- within KH2 setting. This is utterly bizarre.

[Grefter]

Pffft, I don't mind talk about FE.  I just find any discussion of "Character depth" and "development" to be futile pointless fluff.  It is FE Plot.  I am weirded out that I even have to defend myself on this.  It says fuck all about the game.  It is just FE Plot.

[hinode]

FE7 plot is epic even by FE standards.  I can at least remember a vague outline of how 6 and 8's plots go.  7 was just... I've blanked out on everything but "Nergal and his group do randomly villainy things in a few parts of the world".

[Dark Holy Elf]

FE7 plot summary for hinode:

Your dad is missing. You go looking for him, and it looks like he was last seen talking with this Darin guy. You follow this Darin guy to the Dread Isle where you kill him but SURPRISE, he was a pawn of this Very Evil Dude. Very Evil Dude also has a thousand-member band of assassins at his beck and call because he made a soulless construct who seduced their leader. Very Evil Dude proves he's evil by killing your dad then running away. You follow him to some country for some reason, end up killing the entire assassin band through a series of random events mostly involving a the leader of the soulless constructs eating a few of the bigwig assassins and framing you for it. Once you do that, Very Evil Dude kidnaps your woman to show how EVIL he is, so you get a sword that can kick his ass, but your girlfriend shows up as a dragon and you accidentally pull a Sephiroth on her, except your sword is EVEN BIGGER. Anyway Very Evil Dude goes back to the Dread Isle yet again, so you kill fifty million of his soulless constructs, including their androgynous leader, and kill him, without ever really learning his motives (unless you do the SUPER SEKRIT OPTIONAL PLOT where you learn it's because he went mad with necromantic power and wonder why the hell the designers bothered to hide something so damn cliche). Also the last boss is a plotless dragon, but at least he's mildly challenging unlike Idoun and Fomortiis. The end.

Until FE6 happens 20 years later. That one actually has the real plot which FE7 is little more than a shoddy gaiden for, but despite the tantalising sneak preview included in 7 you'll never play the game legally because Nintendo of America hates you.

[Sierra]

HL2: For some reason, playing this game for more than forty-five minutes straight gives me a headache and eventually nausea. No, seriously. I'm not being melodramatic here to mock it--wouldn't do that anyway, because it's a good game--I just genuinely feel physically ill after I've been at it for a while. I have no explanation for this. Still going to play through it, just obviously have to take it in really small bites.

So yeah, still on the river. I found an awesome revolver that kills mooks in one hit and sometimes hurls them across the room. It is hereby dubbed The Enforcer.

[DjinnAndTonic]

FE7 plot summary for hinode:

Your dad is missing. You go looking for him, and it looks like he was last seen talking with this Darin guy. You follow this Darin guy to the Dread Isle where you kill him but SURPRISE, he was a pawn of this Very Evil Dude. Very Evil Dude also has a thousand-member band of assassins at his beck and call because he made a soulless construct who seduced their leader. Very Evil Dude proves he's evil by killing your dad then running away. You follow him to some country for some reason, end up killing the entire assassin band through a series of random events mostly involving a the leader of the soulless constructs eating a few of the bigwig assassins and framing you for it. Once you do that, Very Evil Dude kidnaps your woman to show how EVIL he is, so you get a sword that can kick his ass, but your girlfriend shows up as a dragon and you accidentally pull a Sephiroth on her, except your sword is EVEN BIGGER. Anyway Very Evil Dude goes back to the Dread Isle yet again, so you kill fifty million of his soulless constructs, including their androgynous leader, and kill him, without ever really learning his motives (unless you do the SUPER SEKRIT OPTIONAL PLOT where you learn it's because he went mad with necromantic power and wonder why the hell the designers bothered to hide something so damn cliche). Also the last boss is a plotless dragon, but at least he's mildly challenging unlike Idoun and Fomortiis. The end.

Until FE6 happens 20 years later. That one actually has the real plot which FE7 is little more than a shoddy gaiden for, but despite the tantalising sneak preview included in 7 you'll never play the game legally because Nintendo of America hates you.

This really doesn't sound -that- different from every other generic RPG plot. I don't see why FE7 gets such a bad rep?

As for Very Bad Guy's motives, you left out the part where Nergal -actually- turns out to be Ninian's father, thus completing FE7's laundry list of cliches. From what I understand, the reason he was so keen on getting power and opening the Dragon's Gate was so he could find Ninian and Nils. Unfortunately, once you start eating people, it's hard to remember why you started. Apparently it's very addictive.

So, in a nutshell, the moral of FE7 is don't do drugs. Wait, what?

-Djinn

[Fudozukushi]

Unfortunately, once you start eating people, it's hard to remember why you started. Apparently it's very addictive.

Nothing like the taste of flesh to cause random amnesia...

What was I talking about again?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Djinn:

Well, I'm about the last person in this group to argue that generic RPG plots don't suck.

But most do have more to offer than FE7. Even within the FE series, something not known for interesting plots...

Sword of Seals: Zephiel actually has an interesting motivation. He grows up seeing his father be this total scumbag, and through his heritage also learns how humans drove dragons from the world. Given adequate personal trauma to convince him that humans are a nasty, brutish race, and idolising the dragons, he seeks to revive dragons and give the world back to them.

Sacred Stones: Lyon is possessed by generic evil... or is he? Playing the two routes, we see two pictures of him, and the line becomes heavilly blurred between how much is him, how much is the Demon King, how much is him taking advantage of the Demon King, and how much is the Demon King just letting Lyon think he is doing that. It's neat. Game actually made use of its split path in a meaningful way, unlike FE7.

Path of Radiance: FE's heroes-are-always-perfect trap (which plagues it very badly in the Elibe games and fairly badly in SS) finally gets evaded in this one. Ike is initlally hot-headed and lucky to escape from the early events of the game with his life; aside from saving Elincia, the heroes generally fail until reaching Gallia. Soren, Ike's best friend and strategist, frequently suggests plans of action that are extremely machiavellian. When the Empress of Begnion offers to support Ike and Elincia, Ike lashes out at her for her previous rudeness. And most poignantly, when the Crimean army invades Daein (that's bad guy land), repeated perspectives show how Ike and company are seen as cruel invaders, and warns that their well-meaning actions may have dire consequences.

Radiant Dawn: Isn't a standard JRPG in outline at all, I shouldn't even really have to explain it. The two main perspectives are enemies. The initial problems of the game can be heaped at the feet of the previous games' heroes (Ike's rampage through Daein, Elincia's inexperience as a ruler). The game shifts perspectives rapidly, putting the player in charge of unusual groups at times (such as an army leading a charge against rebels).

Again, these aren't great plots, but they definitely TRY more things than FE7, which felt like it wasn't even trying for plot. FE7 had its hands tied by being a prequel, I understand, but they couldn't have come up with a more cliche villain than Nergal if they'd tried, and there was nothing really interesting opposite him, either.

[hinode]

The other problem with FE7 plot is that as a prequel, it is almost useless.  The big event that changes Zephiel from a kind-hearted person to a bitter king who hates his own race occurs offscreen well after FE7's main plot is finished.  The whole main plot about Nergal and dragons ends up having zero impact on the Bern royal family or anything else that was important in FE6's plot.  Well, I suppose you could say how Eliwood and Hector met their wives... but wait, there's no canon choice for either, so the wives are just shoved offscreen in both the epilogue and FE6 proper, hahaha.

I think the only meaningful perspective FE7 ends up shedding is showing how Karel was like in his youth and what Bartre's wife was like, two easily (ludicrously so in Karla's case) missable minor characters.

A prequel is supposed to provide background on major events that occured prior to the original story and shed new light on existing characters/background/plot, but FE7 instead gave a pretty much unrelated story about some sorceror dude who want around performing deeds that accomplish... basically nothing in particular for Elibe's history, since it's all covered up.

[Meeplelard]

Yeah, FE7's plot has...absolutely nothing.  Well, Lyn mode had...Sain <_<?  Ok, not plot, but LYn mode definitely felt better WRITTEN than Eliwood/Hector Mode since characters could actually be used given no one actually dies; everyone just pulls a "crap! Injury that'll inconveniently last until the end of Chapter 10! I can't fight, but I can be here for plot scenes!" stunt instead.  That's one of the problems with FE plot for characters and such; too many characters having permadeaths means that a lot of them can only get development through supports, and only in some supports.  FE9/10 worked around this some with Optional Info Scenes, so you'll always get insight on some characters regardless of supports, just so long as that character is alive (and often enough, these scenes would reward you with something like an item)...but in any event...

Actually, replaying FE4, I think I figured out why the game gets plot hype.  If you look at the core plot...its actually got some interesting ideas and stuff, and makes use of the generation system (just ignore the incest <_<;.)  The problem is...well...the writing is so bad and the plot scenes are so split up, its so easy to get lost in all of it, so yeah.  Just a case of "neat ideas, poor execution" etc.  FE4's plot ends up sucky as a result, though still probably above FE7.

And yeah, FE7 is completely wasted as a prequel.  I agree that Prequels should only exist if they are to expand upon previous events, clear up certain aspects, etc.  Lufia 2, for example, taught us about Maxim and his adventures against the Sinistrals, so that worked; also, Lufia 1 has a bunch of random things tossed into its plot that Lufia 2 actually does play with (like Lufia 1 talks about a guy named Lexis helping Maxim...hey look whose a party member in Lufia 2!)
Or Crisis Core worked as a prequel for FF7.  Its core plot was kind of useless for FF7, so that part was a Gaiden, but the random nuiances that tie in with FF7 worked, like showing how Zack met Cloud and Aerith, just what kind of relationship he and Sephiroth had, what Shinra was actually like on the inside, seeing it from a perspective that wasn't just "evil corporation" but rather, a "good guy" in a sense, etc.

FE7? Completely failed at this, as hinode stated.

ANYWAY...

MM9: Got to Wily 3, then decided to turn game off cause I know my brother was getting impatient and wanted to play on the Wii, so figured it'd be easier to let him do that.  Anyway, game is...Mega Man 2.5 so far, is the best way to put it!  ;_; to beat being his MM7 self instead of his MM5/6 self though.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Unfortunately, once you start eating people, it's hard to remember why you started. Apparently it's very addictive.

Nothing like the taste of flesh to cause random amnesia...

What was I talking about again?

Well, it wasn't flesh so much as 'quintessence' aka life energy. Apparently plot characters in FE7 are just chock-full of the life energy that gives Nergal his highs.

Slightly more seriously (as serious as one can be about generic RPG plot), Nergal started seeking power to go find his children, but lost himself in the dark arts. Very Harry Potter-ish. He loses himself to the point that when he actually finds his children, he imprisons them and eventually eats his daughter's life force. That's... kind of poignant? Well, it would be if they didn't try their damnedest to hide all of that. The only real mention of it happens in a sidequest plus some of Canas' supports talk about the effects of Dark magic on his family. And conceivably, the 'make-your-own-homunculus-army' thing could have been cool if it was done effectively.

Really, I'm not trying to defend FE7's plot as 'good' by any stretch, I just think it's not any worse than the other generic plots that are so common in JRPGs. The point about FE7 failing as a prequel is definitely one to consider that I hadn't really thought about before (haven't played FE6, so I wasn't comparing). But hey, FE7 did one prequel-esque thing right when Durban prophesized that Hector, the bearer of Armads, would not die a peaceful death! >.>;;

And with that, I'm going to go back to the REAL reason why FE7 is good: LynXFlorina subtext.

-Djinn

[Shale]

SRWZ: "Big O! Showtime!"

Oh yeah, the rest of the game is pretty good too.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

KH2 - Wow, they actually made Tron -work- within KH2 setting. This is utterly bizarre.

I recall him being easily the best thing about that entire game, actually.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'm not saying it wasn't cool (because it was), but I just didn't expect the explanation for Tron being in KH to work as well as it did, mostly. It's weird, but pretty awesome.

[Grefter]

Tron is the only reason to  play KH2 and it is almost worth it.

Anyway Djinn, meh lets go with a series I know that you know.  Compare FE7 to Tales of Destiny.  ToD is probably the most generic Tales plot around (Even more so than the later tropetastic ones), it even suffers from bad sequelitis (THIS TIME WITH MORE SWORDS.  EVERY CHARACTER HAS SWORDS.  SWORDS ARE COOL.  SWORDS!).  Yet in spite of that, it does manage to pull out so far ahead of FE7 it is astronomical.  You still don't really play Tales games for plot outside of ToP and maybe TotA, but the difference is staggering.

Edit - Oh yeah and the "Kill your loved ones through your quest for power causing you to lose sight of the purpose!" was cliche to the point of eye roll when Darth Vader did it in Sith.  It wasn't any more innovative a few years earlier in FE7.

[Magic Fanatic]

KH2 may be short, but lots of side quests make a lot of extra time in that game fun.  Took me forever to beat Sephiroth on Proud Mode, but I did it.

Illusion of Gaia - Still wondering what the hell I'm gonna say in the last set of videos.  I have a tendency to get quiet when I'm concentrating, and I typically need someone to break me out of that.  Would it help if I replayed Soul Blazer?

BvS - Well, Wil's completely done with Season 2 main stuff now.  I'm probably just gonna have him collect money for Wish Around The World to be available, and then kinda explode on the slots and then loop at some point.  Maybe go for a Sannin run and top 3, too.  First alt hasn't done anything miraculous, and second alt kinda just stumbled into hanging out with Sporty and Scary by Flower Points.  Yay for me being able to get Stark Moonlights or something now?

I'm really tempted to replay Okami.  That game is awesome, and I have extra god mode unlocked for collecting all 100 Stray Beads in the previous playthrough.