What Games Are You Playing: 2008

[hinode]

The one thing that generic RPG plot has going for it is scope - you get to travel around the entire world, fighting off monsters everywhere you go to eventually save it from being conquered/destroyed by the bad guy.  FE7, on the other hand, limits you to a small portion of its world, just Sacae+Lycia in Lyn mode and Lycia+(parts of) Bern+Nergal's island in Eliwood/Hector mode.  Contrast this to both FE6 and 8, where you get to march across the whole map across the various pathsplits and work directly to save all of it.

If they compensated for this reduction in scope by making the plot more detailed, or more politically intricate, or focused more on character development, this might've worked out.  But characterization is no different from the other FEs (and worse for the main villain), the politics are *less* relevant due to having a conspiracy as the bad guys instead of a major nation, and the plot isn't really any more complex in a meaningful way; you just spend a bunch of time blundering your way through Lycia and Bern with less of a clear goal than you do in FE6 or FE8, and you end up fighting roughly the same number of subbosses, just clumped more tightly geographically.

This, along with the wasted prequel aspect, is why FE7's plot is contemptible even by generic RPG standards, or the standards of its own series.  After thinking about it more, the prequel problem is incredibly simple: IntSys for some reason decided they should make the prequel a game about the backstory of Roy and Lilina's parents instead of Zephiel.  But Eliwood and Hector's histories don't really matter for FE6's plot (and their wives got put on a bus to make the support ending system work), while Zephiel's background is extremely important for FE6.  What they should've done is make Zephiel the main character, showed his strained family relations and how he interacted with the other nations in his youth, with his killing his father in self-defense occur somewhere in the middle as a major character inflection point.

[Bardiche]

I can so totally see how that'd be rockhard awesome, rather than the current "Hey Zephiel stars in this one mission where you have to save him and most importantly recruit Ninian and Jaffar!"

Part of me wants to scream INDIE FAN GAME but I don't think it'd be quite the same.

[metroid composite]

The one thing that generic RPG plot has going for it is scope - you get to travel around the entire world, fighting off monsters everywhere you go to eventually save it from being conquered/destroyed by the bad guy.  FE7, on the other hand, limits you to a small portion of its world, just Sacae+Lycia in Lyn mode and Lycia+(parts of) Bern+Nergal's island in Eliwood/Hector mode.  Contrast this to both FE6 and 8, where you get to march across the whole map across the various pathsplits and work directly to save all of it.

If they compensated for this reduction in scope by making the plot more detailed, or more politically intricate, or focused more on character development, this might've worked out.  But characterization is no different from the other FEs (and worse for the main villain), the politics are *less* relevant due to having a conspiracy as the bad guys instead of a major nation, and the plot isn't really any more complex in a meaningful way; you just spend a bunch of time blundering your way through Lycia and Bern with less of a clear goal than you do in FE6 or FE8, and you end up fighting roughly the same number of subbosses, just clumped more tightly geographically.

This, along with the wasted prequel aspect, is why FE7's plot is contemptible even by generic RPG standards, or the standards of its own series.  After thinking about it more, the prequel problem is incredibly simple: IntSys for some reason decided they should make the prequel a game about the backstory of Roy and Lilina's parents instead of Zephiel.  But Eliwood and Hector's histories don't really matter for FE6's plot (and their wives got put on a bus to make the support ending system work), while Zephiel's background is extremely important for FE6.  What they should've done is make Zephiel the main character, showed his strained family relations and how he interacted with the other nations in his youth, with his killing his father in self-defense occur somewhere in the middle as a major character inflection point.

Wait, hold on, since when does the amount of the map a plot covers have ANYTHING to do with the quality of the plot?

By that logic, Jane Austen novels have worse plot than Michael Crichton novels, because they usually save the world in Michael Crichton novels, whereas Jane Austen novels rarely conclude with anything more epic than a double-marriage and never leave England.


Or, relating to FE7, most people I've talked to agree that Lyn mode >>> Eliwood/Hector mode for plot.  This despite the fact that it covers less of the map, and was an internal feud that doesn't really concern other nations.

[Meeplelard]

That's not what hinode is saying.  What hinode is saying, I think, is that you cover the entire world, so you see pretty much everything, but nothing in depth.  He said it has scope; you're doing things on a large scale, saving the entire world, etc.

Now, when you centralize a plot and put it to a small area? You naturally take a different angle at things.  Look at FFT for example.  The entire game is centralized in one country, Ivalice.  Due to this, you add a whole political aspect to the entire game, you see all the same faces, etc.  You aren't really going anywhere, nor are the villains on the move.  Yeah, they go from one city to another, but everyone is relatively close to each other.

Suikodens usually take a similar style for their development since they cover regions, not the entire world (S1 was Scarlet Moon/Toran (whatever you wanna call it), S2 was Highlands vs. City State specifically, etc.)  As such, its not about "saving the world" but "beat the opposing force" and all that.  Its a different angle the game takes.

It has nothing to do with quality, has to do with what kind of direction it takes.

FE7, though? It covers about the same microcosm area as a Suikoden or FFT...but its plot does nothing with it.  It just has the generic "Rar, I'm evil, THE WORLD SHALL BE MINE!" villain, but instead of travelling the world to defeat him, you're travelling...2 countries?
Lyn mode didn't try to pretend anything, on the otherhand; they made it clear it was "Save Caelin from tyrant!" It wasn't the world, it was Caelin specifically.  If nothing else, Lyn mode had something that Eliwood/Hector mode did not; it had direction.  Lyn mode you knew your goal from relatively early on; stop Lundgren who apparently is Lyn's (Great?) Uncle and the guy whose causing trouble, and acquaint her with her grandfather she never met.  Its not much, but its there, and its easy to remember.
Eliwood/Hector mode is...pretty much a wild goose chase, and half the time its "Ok, so...wait, what am I doing now?  Why am I in a desert again?"

FE6 at least had it clear you were basically facing Zephiel and trying to get the Legendary Weapons before he did.  FE8 had it clear that you were trying to save the Sacred Stones (and get your hands on the Sacred Twins), as a common goal throughout the game.  Once you got them all, you went after the bad guy himself.  Again, its not much, but at least having some clear defined goal helps keep plot direction.  FE7 was "there's an evil guy, KILL HIM! KIIIIILLL HIM!!!! NO, DON'T ASK WHY, HE'S JUST EVIL!"

That said, yeah, a Zephiel game could have been neat.  It'd give this strange sense playing the game that you know the hero of the game is just going to end up being the bad guy in the grand scheme of things, but then, that'd be what'd make it a unique experience (much like in Crisis Core, you know that as great these feats Zack is pulling off, as awesome as he is...he's still going to die right before getting to Midgar and there's nothing you can do about it.)

[Shale]

FE7's plot issues all stem from the fact that they could have really developed the world they introduced in FE6, and instead chose to make a generic RPG plot with "YOU'RE PLAYING AS ELIWOOD AND HECTOR! ISN'T THAT COOL?" shoehorned in and call it a day.

[hinode]

Wait, hold on, since when does the amount of the map a plot covers have ANYTHING to do with the quality of the plot?

It does when you're comparing two cases of the generic "Go on an adventure and save the world!" plot that exists in like 99% of RPGs.  The adventure part is much more interesting if you actually visit a decent variety of locales, while the saving the world part is more meaningful if you actually get the see the world at large, not just a few strips of it.  Austin and Crichton are apples and oranges; FE6/8 and FE7 are very much apples to apples.

Basically in FE7 they cut down on the scope of the plot dramatically but fail to do anything to compensate for this.  Liberating the continent of Elibe piecemeal at least gives you a clear sense of the plot's direction in FE6 and the impact you're making on the world while your personality-less Lord is going around beating up the generic flunkies of the bad guy army.  In FE7 you face pretty much the same sort of sub-bosses, but do so in a sequence of filler battles somewhere in the middle of Bern with no real consequence on the world at large.  There's no increase in the detail of politics or culture from the smaller scope; in fact, you get a better sense of what Bern is like in FE6 despite spending much less time there, since you actually fight the main Bern army rather than a group of mercenaries that just happen to dwell there.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Wow, I really wasn't expecting such in-depth answers. It's been really interesting reading them.

I have to say that I see the point quite clearly now. Before, I looked at FE7, saw all the elements of your standard RPG plot, and simply filed it away as more of the same generic. But everyone has quite clearly defined that there are varying levels of quality even within generic. Especially so when FE7 had the job of being a prequel. It's odd for me to think that something like the Lufia series beats -anything- for plot, but after considering everyone's comments on the 'shades of generic', I guess FE7 falls short even there.

*ignores this problem and happily returns to drawing LynXFlorina fanart*

-Djinn

[Anthony Edward Stark]

By that logic, Jane Austen novels have worse plot than Michael Crichton novels, because they usually save the world in Michael Crichton novels, whereas Jane Austen novels rarely conclude with anything more epic than a double-marriage and never leave England.

Fuck Jane Austen. I've never been more glad someone is dead. Her and that guy who wrote The Scarlet Letter. Anything is better than that.

In fact, pretty much every British author who wrote anything before the Industrial Revolution deserved the comparative filth they probably lived in with a very small list of exceptions.

[DomaDragoon]

FFTA2: Completed Main Game, 279 missons cleared. Barring a miracle game coming out of nowhere or the Civ Rev DLC being out of this world, this'll probably be GotY 2K8 for me.

KOTOR 2: As I have a copy of this game (and have for like a year, but whatever), I figured I should finally try and beat this. Currently playing Male LS Guardian with a beard, playing fetch quest for the Ithorians on Citadel Station.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Hang in there. It gets better.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

KH2 - Well, revisiting worlds is mostly done. Whee Sora learns Finishing Plus and I can ditch the Rumbling Rose as a main weapon.

[Cmdr_King]

DQIVDS- Rarr done.  Did enough C6 to get Psaro, haven't messed around with the frue final or getting his high end gear though.  Maybe it's just poor memory, but I swear dungeons took a lot longer in the original version.  Otherwise fairly obviously in the same mold, but with enough touches here and there to make it overall a lot more fun to play.  Torneko's appraisals were also a joy, and the funetik aksent in general made me smile.
Interestingly basically nothing DL-relevant changed.  Meena(Nara) sucks less, Kiryl(Cristo) lost some status accuracy, Alena seems to have lost some crit potential, but the cast doesn't really make any big divisional shifts.  Psaro comes out way ahead though, both because his forms aren't laughable OHKO-bait in Godlike and because his PC form is cracked out and more or less legal (game presents it as essentially alternate continuity, and probably canon really.)  Interestingly, I think I beat it at a lower level too, simply because with full party control abusing Kabuff and Accelerate was more than any boss could handle (even the bosses with Waves of Ice simply didn't use them enough to keep up.)

Anyways, fun game, obvious step up from DWIV which I have at... 6/10, so 7/10 sounds about right.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

So I hit 80 in the WotLK beta, and I have to say, it was overall some of the most fun I've had from a new game in the past... three years or so. When it was working right, at least, which wasn't always (hell, the main quest chain in the Dragonblight was bugged for two weeks, basically locking out the biggest zone in Northrend), that is. But hey, it's beta.

I'm still very upset they killed off my favorite character, though.

[Cotigo]

Shit, is DWIVDS out in English or did you play it in Japanese?

Damn it too many games coming out.  FFIVDS, DWIVDS, MM9...

[TranceHime]

Shit, is DWIVDS out in English or did you play it in Japanese?

Damn it too many games coming out.  FFIVDS, DWIVDS, MM9...

DWIVDS is in English. DWVDS is the Japanese one.

[Niu]

Knights in the Nightmare- Wow, Sting continues to deliver. This is some very original gameplay.... just it can really be easier. Yggdra Union was already cringe worthy enough. Some parts are needlessly complicated though, the recruitment can be easier, and the phase change felt somewhat superfluous.

World Destruction- As expected, very different from the anime. I actually like the characterization in the anime better. Morte felt too stupidly cheerful, Agon felt somewhat dumb, and Kylier is waaayyy to dense here. While Tobi acting cool and fights on the School of Undefeated East is somewhat interesting. Li A probbaly is the most different, instead of a bipolar tsundare, she is actually the cryptic know it all here. And the Measter Cat who is the joke character in episode 1 is actually important in game and working for Li A. And the gameplay... typical Xeno stuff, we all know the deal.

[Sierra]

HL2: "We don't go to Ravenholm." Man, I can see why.

I am disappointed that the gravity gun doesn't work on organic lifeforms. I will just have to be content with smashing boxes into Combine faces instead.

[TranceHime]

Knights in the Nightmare- Wow, Sting continues to deliver. This is some very original gameplay.... just it can really be easier. Yggdra Union was already cringe worthy enough. Some parts are needlessly complicated though, the recruitment can be easier, and the phase change felt somewhat superfluous.

World Destruction- As expected, very different from the anime. I actually like the characterization in the anime better. Morte felt too stupidly cheerful, Agon felt somewhat dumb, and Kylier is waaayyy to dense here. While Tobi acting cool and fights on the School of Undefeated East is somewhat interesting. Li A probbaly is the most different, instead of a bipolar tsundare, she is actually the cryptic know it all here. And the Measter Cat who is the joke character in episode 1 is actually important in game and working for Li A. And the gameplay... typical Xeno stuff, we all know the deal.

I was going to try Knights in the Nightmare, and also I may get World Destruction.

I'm more interested in KinN because it's Sting, so Niu, is it worth picking up?

[Cotigo]

Um, Trance:  They're both in Japanese, I was asking if DQIVDS was out in English yet.  Which I suppose it is, so thanks for that, but it's not like Squeenix is only going to release a DQ game and not release it in Japan. 

El Cid:  Heh, sawblades are more fun.  For extra fun, find some Combine who throw grenades at you.  Pick up the grenade with the gun and fling it back at them.  Most satisfying way to kill them, until... well, I'll let you get to that point.

[Cotigo]

Doublepost but watch me give a shit

By that logic, Jane Austen novels have worse plot than Michael Crichton novels, because they usually save the world in Michael Crichton novels, whereas Jane Austen novels rarely conclude with anything more epic than a double-marriage and never leave England.

If you're going to get into this, Jane Austin novels do have terrible plots just for that reason.  Plots, mind you; characterization is another matter, but to say the least she fails in that regard as well.

Fuck Jane Austen. I've never been more glad someone is dead. Her and that guy who wrote The Scarlet Letter. Anything is better than that.

Not that I don't approve of Jane Austin hate, even she is better than whichever Bronte sister wrote Wuthering Heights.

[Hunter Sopko]

Fuck Jane Austen. I've never been more glad someone is dead. Her and that guy who wrote The Scarlet Letter. Anything is better than that.

Not that I don't approve of Jane Austin hate, even she is better than whichever Bronte sister wrote Wuthering Heights.

Ugh. Why'd you even have to mention it, Zenny?

[TranceHime]

Um, Trance:  They're both in Japanese, I was asking if DQIVDS was out in English yet.  Which I suppose it is, so thanks for that, but it's not like Squeenix is only going to release a DQ game and not release it in Japan. 

Yeah, whatever. If a game is out in the stateside already I tend to dismiss the Japanese one because chances are I've already finished it.

Sorry if there was a misunderstanding because I've been feeling kinda shitty recently.

[Grefter]

Emile Bronte I think it was?

But yeah, see the reason behind FIRE EMBLEM POLT Djinn?  I normally reserve that for Megaman plot discussion (for serious it happens in chat).  It is like a step down from discussing Mr Driller plot or Tetris plot.

[Hunter Sopko]

Don't knock Tetris plot, Gref.

[Cotigo]

Yeah, Emile Bronte.  Fuck her.  Her sister's not much better, though.

And, hey, man.  Megaman plot is the shit.  When it's been totally re-written and set in an Indie Rock Opera format, at least.