What Games Are You Playing: 2008

[Twilkitri]

Phantasy Star 2 is an awesome game and you people are all insane.



In other news, SRWD kind of loses its impact when all your units have +50 in evade and their favourite attack stat.

[Cotigo]

Phantasy Star 2 is an awesome game and you people are all insane.

Defend yourself or be laughed at.

KoL:  Woo, Bad moon motherfuckers.  Black Cat is laaaaame, and I managed to end up with 0 in a stat for the first time.  Fortunately, it was Mysticality so it didn't matter.  >_>

[AAA]

Phantasy Star 2 is a terrible, terrible game and people that still love it for some sick, twisted reason should be locked up and stuided.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Yeah, pretty much. I played it once but cheated to preset all my levels to max and then turned off random encounters. That made it not so bad.

[Meeplelard]

Its funny cause a lot of what "PS2 did that was revolutionary!" was already done by Final Fantasy 2; just, you know, it was never released here, but doesn't change the fact that FF2 did it first.

Except FF2 had a coherent story the entire way through; the only thing that made Nei a "main character" was that she was forced into your team the entire time til she died.  The utter lack of plot scenes (like, I mean REALLY lack) from after that guy blows himself up until...well, she dies kind of makes it hard to give a shit.  I don't mean "there are a few plot scenes"; I honestly don't remember a god damn scene between beginning of the game and Nei's death outside of that one with the guy who blows himself up with his daughter, which was more "..." than anything else.

As far as I'm concerned, FF2 is the revolutionary game for the Genre's plot.  It did a whole lot of shit that it doesn't get credit for (admittedly, i know its hated for gameplay purposes, but shh!)  Not being released in the US kind of hurts it, but doesn't change the fact that it did them first.

It has characters, actual character interaction (not just "we have names and a plot scene where we are introduced!" like PS1, for example), an actual villain with screen time (not a lot, but it beats "Rar I sit on my throne til you kick my ass!" like Lassic), plot twists, and doesn't just kill off one character, it kills off at least 5, admittedly no one cares about Scott preSoul of Rebirth, so really its just 4 characters.  It also had this concept of a Princess who actually did shit instead of just get kidnapped (Oh, Hilda gets kidnapped, sure, but she does stuff BESIDES that.)
Also had plot flow that made sense.  "The empire is kicking our asses partially cause of better stuff.  If we had MIthril Items, we may stand a chance.  Firion, your next mission is to find Mithril!"
Oh, also the Password system did lend itself to a degree of REAL role playing, more so than most JRPGs really, sadly didn't return (though can sort of understand why.)

I'm not saying FF2 doesn't have its issues, but its hard to call "Phantasy Star 2 revolutionary!" when FF2 beat it to the punch in almost every category, and did it better too (having  actual plot scenes and dialog, not just "Halo thar my name is Lutz! Now go find these legendary weapons so you may kick the crap out of Mother Brain, k thx bai!")  PS2's ending is about the only thing new it did.

Really, compare RPGs of the SNES Era and later, and tell me what they resemble more:  FF2's plot style, or PS2's plot style.

[Dark Holy Elf]

doesn't just kill off one character, it kills off at least 5

Um, that's generally a sign of bad storytelling, not good.

"How will we get this character to leave the party? Also, while we can't write worth shit, but we'd like to get our audience to react emotionally. How can we accomplish that? Now wouldn't it be awesome if both these questions had a single answer?"

It can be used effectively, but FF2 and FF4 (and book 3 of ASoIaF <.<) both prove it's impossible to use effectively in a repetitive fashion. And for what it's worth, Tellah's death > anyone's death in FF2's, as a scene.

FF2 freaking fails, at plot as well as gameplay. As much as debating the merits of FF4 plot vs. FF3 plot vs. FF2 plot is fun, and there's a chance FF2 actually comes out ahead, that doesn't change this simple fact. That PS2 may fail more isn't really my concern. <_<

[Taishyr]

Let's just go with Megaman Plot > Early FF Plot > Early PS plot. Is this acceptable?

[AndrewRogue]

I feel the need to pop in.

Killing off characters has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of writing.

[AAA]

You guys are so getting killed off in Meeple's DL fanfics

[Hunter Sopko]

I feel the need to pop in.

Killing off characters has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of writing.

Was this made a reflex for you, Andy, or just drilled deeply into your head?<G>

But trust me all, when it comes to characters dying, you can believe it when it comes from Andy.

[AndrewRogue]

Was this made a reflex for you, Andy, or just drilled deeply into your head?<G>

But trust me all, when it comes to characters dying, you can believe it when it comes from Andy.

I've always generally believed it, but there are a lot of outlying cases that specifically reinforce it to me. :p Character death is a tool, just like any other storytelling element.

Although not really a great example, One Piece jumps to mind as a perfectly fine comic despite pretty blatently not killing anyone off except in flashbacks. The tension and drama instead rests on true defeat (the loss of your dreams or other things that are important to you). I can dig in to better examples if you want, but that one just jumps out at me because I like One Piece. ^_^

[Dark Holy Elf]

Killing off characters has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of writing.

Killing off a lot of characters in repetitive fashion is a pretty solid indicator of bad writing. It's just too easy a way to deal with freeing up party space AND an easy way to get an emotion out of your audience, as I said. <_< And it's something I know firsthand because I used to do it when I wrote when I was in my early teens. Couldn't think of a resolution for the character? Kill 'em.

This is not to say it can not be done effectively, one or multiple times in a story. But FF2 and FF4 don't qualify there!

[metroid composite]

Killing off characters has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of writing.

Killing off a lot of characters in repetitive fashion is a pretty solid indicator of bad writing. It's just too easy a way to deal with freeing up party space AND an easy way to get an emotion out of your audience, as I said. <_< And it's something I know firsthand because I used to do it when I wrote when I was in my early teens. Couldn't think of a resolution for the character? Kill 'em.

In fairness, it more indicates a lack of skill or laziness on the writer than bad writing.  A bad writer using easy solutions is going to produce better writing than a bad writer trying to go for difficult solutions.  Same way someone with only grade 3 in Piano can probably do an okay job of Moonlight Sonata Movement 1, but would be an idiot to try Movement 3.

Of course, obviously a good piano player will do a better job of Movement 1.  Similarly, it also means that bad writers are restricted to a small number of things they can do well (clichees).

[Anthony Edward Stark]

doesn't just kill off one character, it kills off at least 5

Um, that's generally a sign of bad storytelling, not good.

"How will we get this character to leave the party? Also, while we can't write worth shit, but we'd like to get our audience to react emotionally. How can we accomplish that? Now wouldn't it be awesome if both these questions had a single answer?"

It can be used effectively, but FF2 and FF4 (and book 3 of ASoIaF <.<) both prove it's impossible to use effectively in a repetitive fashion. And for what it's worth, Tellah's death > anyone's death in FF2's, as a scene.

FF2 freaking fails, at plot as well as gameplay. As much as debating the merits of FF4 plot vs. FF3 plot vs. FF2 plot is fun, and there's a chance FF2 actually comes out ahead, that doesn't change this simple fact. That PS2 may fail more isn't really my concern. <_<

I gotta say... I'm so jaded and indifferent to people having death scenes that WA4 actually became extremely evocative to me because it kills off a LOT of people without any sort of big fanfare. Like Wash in Serenity.

[Unoriginal]

WoW:  Reeeeally angry right now.  Found an exploit last night which would have resulted in Abyss Crystals being essentially purchasable for 20 gold.  I reported this.  And now my account is suspended for 72 hours.  For trying to help.  ARGH.

[Pyro]

That sounds like something you ought to be angry over, Uno. Essentially taking your money because you reported something to them? Yeah, thats just wrong.

[Captain K.]

Was this made a reflex for you, Andy, or just drilled deeply into your head?<G>

But trust me all, when it comes to characters dying, you can believe it when it comes from Andy.

I've always generally believed it, but there are a lot of outlying cases that specifically reinforce it to me. :p Character death is a tool, just like any other storytelling element.

Although not really a great example, One Piece jumps to mind as a perfectly fine comic despite pretty blatently not killing anyone off except in flashbacks. The tension and drama instead rests on true defeat (the loss of your dreams or other things that are important to you). I can dig in to better examples if you want, but that one just jumps out at me because I like One Piece. ^_^

Now I feel the need to pop in.  One Piece is terrible.  The fact that characters never die just accentuates the suckage.  For example, in the last Chapter of the English manga, Usopp (a normal human being, no special powers whatsoever), is beaten repeatedly by a guy with a 4-ton baseball bat.  He lives.  And manages to defeat his opponent.  THAT is bad writing.

This is a problem with Shonen manga in general (do any of the Leaf Village Genin in Naruto ever die?  NO), not just One Piece.  But mentioning One Piece as a perfectly fine comic is just fail.

[Xeroma]

Ladies, if you wanna debate generic shonen manga, take it to the topic meant for it on the boards >_>;

Banjo-Kazooie Nuts and Bolts: Rented, hopefull will get it for christmas. This game is huger than an XBox[hur hur], and I for one am enjoying it. Really collectathon-y but it's a Banjo game, if it DIDN'T have that element to it something would be desperately wrong. Vehicle building is fun, though the driving physics take some getting used to.

[Unoriginal]

In somewhat more detail, there were a few rep items that they had forgotten to flag as undisenchantable.  I noticed this, popped a bunch of them, reported it, then deleted the resulting crystals, editing the report to reflact that i'd gotten rid of them in case they thought I was trying to hide something for some bizarre reason.  I used a couple to give a guild member an enchant(she'd been after it for nearly a week, didn't occur to me to say no at the time), but I was still using mostly my own, and I'd reported that too.

The thing that really gets me though?  In the boilerplate email notifying me of the suspension, they link to the various penalty pages, and the worst I should have gotten(not hiding a thing, minimal impact, OUTRIGHT TELLING THEM how it was done so they could fix it) should have gotten a warning at most.


Just...  ARGH.

I'm contesting it, but who knows when a human will read it.

[NotMiki]

One Piece.  But mentioning One Piece as a perfectly fine comic is just fail.

Does the word 'comedy' mean anything to you?

[Sierra]

ES: Filler dungeon! Oh well, at least the pirates have the decency to say "Yar." Also, Salsa will henceforth be known as Her Fabulousness.

[Cmdr_King]

On the note of character deaths as plot device, counter-example: Suikoden (1, that is).  Despite what plot the game had being largely an escalation of emotionally rending character deaths for Tir and the consequences thereof, it didn't really come off as cheap because of how the game framed it.  The deaths all served some story purpose beyond milking it for drama/player punch, and the actual suffering Tir went through is explicitly that this will keep happening, not just that his dad, best friend and caretaker all died.
Not that Suikoden has an awesome plot, but that's more other flaws in the game (ie Tir is a silent main in a game with this plot...) than this particular device being present.  Heck, it's pretty much the most interesting aspect of the game's plot.

That said, FFII does use it pretty badly <.<

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yep, I agree there! Good call on that one, CK. There were quite a few, but they served a deliberate plot purpose, and served it effectively.

[Monkeyfinger]

Been playing Valkyria Chronicles these past few days. About 75% of the way through.

Battle system's interesting. There's a strategic map, and you have command points: the number of times per round that you can tell units to go. When you select a unit, you take control of him in a brief third person shooter sequence, with a BoF5 type AP stat determining how much the character can do before his turn is up. You can dump command points onto the same person multiple times per round, but there's an AP penalty.

Map designs are pretty good, but mines are retarded, especially because with my 50/70 eyesight I can't fucking see the anti-personnel ones most of the time. I've had quite a few gameovers due to this. (Main character death = game-over and AP mines one-shot him)

Main characters are annoying, the support characters that matter are cool, and there's a VP2-like roster of personality-less generics that fill out your ranks.

[Grefter]

Ladies ladies.  You are doing it fucking wrong.

FF2 did it shit because it fucking killed everyone.  PS2 did it shit because it killed off a character with 0 plot outside of the manual.  They are both shit.  Fucking play Torment.