So are video games actually that bad at feminism?

[DjinnAndTonic]

Wow. Okay, I'm going to try to respond to this as politely as possible.

Trails in the Sky FC is a game which is, whatever merits it may have, problematic enough on a feminist front that one of your female friends ragequit the game for that exact reason. You are, I'm pretty sure, aware of this.

Yet for some reason you turn around and, of all the games you could have chosen to hype in this space, chose to hype that one. The fact that you chose this game suggests that you don't really have a very good understanding of what makes a game feminist or feminist-friendly, which itself is a bit frustrating but ultimately not that big a deal. But the fact that you chose to post about it knowing full well that this game hurt one of your female friends is just a shitty thing to do, sorry. "Hey I'm sorry that this game affected you this way but I as a dude with no personal stake in this think you're so wrong about this that I'm going to state the polar opposite!" What the fuck, man.

I'm going to ask yourself how you would feel if a particular game got under your skin on a front you care about. Imagine, for instance, that there was a game which portrayed a gay or bisexual man in an incredibly negative light (I'll let you decide what that means, that's the point!). It affects you greatly, and you post about the game on RPGDL, letting everyone know how you feel. Imagine then that one of your friends, a straight person who has never had to endure an iota of stigma for his or her sexuality, knowing how you feel, hypes that game as the most LGBT-friendly game he or she has ever played. I can't imagine you'd take that well, nor should you be expected to.


Obviously I disagree with a number of comments in your post itself (at least as pertains to FC) and if you really want I can explain which ones and why, though I'm not sure if this thread is the right place. I don't want this post to come across as "I don't have the arguments to counter yours so I'm attacking your decision to make them", because believe me I do have the arguments. Perhaps more to the point, so does Ciato, who has made those arguments before! But the arguments themselves aren't why I'm upset and disappointed right now.

Well, notably I'm talking about the three Trails in the Sky games as a whole, not just FC, which I think would change this discussion immensely. I feel pretty strongly about these games and they did come across as feminist-friendly. I'm not trying to disregard Ciato's or your feelings at all! I may not have the correct perspective to see the problematic things in Trails in the Sky FC as instantaneously or feel them as viscerally. But when I was playing the games, this is the impression I got, genuinely trying to look at the story critically. I wanted to share the good aspects that I picked up on, not insult anyone else's perspective...

You say "of all the games I could've chosen", but honestly, that list isn't very long... and most of them seem to have been touched upon already. These games meant something to me, and I wanted to discuss their good points... If you think the problematic parts outweigh the good, then I'll defer to your/Ciato's perspective. But it seems counterproductive to just toss out the things the games did do well, especially if I didn't pick up on the problematic parts intuitively. I did try to keep in mind the comments and criticisms that you both made about FC before when I was thinking about what I liked about how Trails in the Sky progressed throughout the three games! I'm not dismissing your feelings and critiques, though I guess I am challenging them due to how Trails SC and 3rd continued the narrative... I am prepared for the possibility of being completely wrong. Maybe there's some scene or dynamic that I just completely forgot about or wasn't paying enough attention to in Trails that is absolutely abhorrently at odds with my morals. That happens. I'm forgetful. But that long hype post was my genuine emotional impression after playing the games, and I think it's worth discussing. If for nothing else, then perhaps it's a good segue into how games with surface-level "good feminist qualities" might have some seriously abrasive "anti-feminist problems". If it fooled me, someone who is actively turned off by anti-feminist ideals, then what do game writers need to do to be better?

It's also worth noting that I have talked to Ciato about this game series specifically before. We discussed how the Trails games changed over the 3 entries, specifically repudiating some of her complaints that she critiqued in her forum posts. I kind of wanted to write a lot of words about the goods points of the games specifically to highlight how much the series improves over time. It doesn't feel right to just disengage and ignore this series when there's a lot of feminine/feminist themes here to engage with.

...I wrote all of that just now, but I also want to unambiguously apologize. That was my logic for why I wrote the hype post, but clearly I may have misinterpreted the point of this topic, and somehow fell into some kind of mansplaining trap. I am sorry. It clearly hurt your and Ciato's feelings that I would post something so counter to your previously stated opinions. I wish I could say that I did it without thinking, but honestly, I WAS thinking about both of you and how I wanted to share why I thought the series did a good job. That was dismissive of Ciato's unique perspective of the topic and for that I do apologize. ...I just... I don't know how else to express my opinion and have this discussion? I am 100% willing to accept that something is problematic, but I have to actually see and judge HOW something is problematic. I know it's easier and wiser to just accept the opinion of someone with a better perspective, but that runs counter to every other discussion of narrative and media that I've ever had, so I guess I have trouble doing that.

[dunie]

A month or so back, I tossed an open question at chat: how many games could anyone think of that didn't embarrass themselves in feminist terms?
We didn't get very far before deciding very few existed outside the indie space.  And that's to be expected: I'm not entirely sure any game released by a publisher of any size, at least in modernity, has had predominantly female creative teams.  Broadly speaking the makers of our video games are dudes.

But honestly I feel like this is a question I'd like to see more people explore.  I should probably clarify a bit though.

I don't really mean completely unproblematic.  I mean, nothing is that.  And among the first games I thought of for the exercise was Bayonetta.

Moreso, at least for myself, I think of this as games that don't say, whether explicitly or by implication, that masculinity is the superior position.

Can we revisit this? Is there a chat log for that discussion? A wise one definitely brought to my attention that absenting the individuals who do such work already undercuts the possible results but also isn't feminist in the deconstruction of said patriarchies/institutions. The historian in me does find it necessary to revisit previous important moments to excavate ignored themes (and it is the easiest for me to do in all practicality at this point), but I suppose my question is: are there ways to talk about industry more than content in terms of the failure of games and feminism? I'm the type of political being that puts my money where my mouth but so far I've done nothing to support indies that are trying at least. I just read this snippet:

“We had [some companies] tell us, ‘Well, we don’t want to publish it because that’s not going to succeed. You can’t have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that,’” said developer Jean-Max Morris of Remember Me, a cyberpunk game featuring a woman who hacks the minds of others and steals their memories.

https://hellogiggles.com/reviews-coverage/5-feminist-video-games-need-play-right-now/

Whenever the mainstream absorbs smaller creations it always homogenizes it, so I don't find the inclusion of indies as any adequate answer. But, what would a future of equalizing resources and opportunities do (IE my feminism is "equality of all people?")?

We can keep talking about content. It's fun, useful, a crudely belated forum conversation. But just what type of feminism are you really trying to highlight or enact?

Or if you want to stick to content: Is that mostly only translatable through women for you OR could we also consider games that engage toxic masculinity or asexuality? FFXV has enough traditional male characters to do such, especially when it slightly verges to meta? Or why the hell can strong female characters only be androids or knights or valkyries? Why is the sword or fist but nothing in-between always "masculine" when dudes shot bows like bosses too?

[Cmdr_King]

I think as a philosophical thing I like the idea of interrogating what we engage with daily or while growing up not for its failings, which we focus on so much in internet culture, but on where y'know... maybe this wasn't so bad.  Maybe elements of positive and forward-looking messages slip through the cracks of male-centric creation processes and the demands of marketing.

I'll admit I also shy away from the indie space because I don't know it very well (aside from megahits like Celeste and Undertale), and also it's a space with a lot of single-creator auteur stuff, so the metrics are very different.

Beyond that I'm not sure how to engage with the ways the industry became so exclusionary without broad strokes assumptions since I'm not familiar with the creation process in games directly, and well.. I feel like exploring that is more getting into the negative space which is valuable, just not really what I was looking to do here.

Positive masculinity definitely has a place in this discussion!  I am perhaps not the one to dig into that.

[Cmdr_King]

The DLiest if challenges assess SaGa Frontier as a feminist work probably as individual paths but the whole is great if you’ve the energy send post

[Grefter]

Well I am pretty sure there is one way to work on that gap in indie stuff that lines up with advice I had been giving you >_>

Now a developer that specifically works towards a feminist agenda is an interesting one.   None come to mind but that is because Dev teams tend to work away in obscurity either by design in Triple A for marketing purposes or just in actual obscurity because of no visibility.

Also there is the question of like, do you put a lower limit on team size?  Like a one person studio count if that person isenrifies as a Feminist?

Probably the noteworthy one is Motion Twin, they are an attempt to run as an anarcho syndicalist collective but they are sort of known for the success of the game (Dead Cells) rather than that.  It is also conflating chunks of my socialism with feminism (though ofc I think they are tightly intertwined)


Some pet favorites from local stuff, Route 59 who are working on Necrobarista generally seems pretty on board, but that is based on hanging out on their discord and them being generally super cool people and being small enough that they can just be social on the internet.

Otherwise you get into smaller teams, I should probably be able to think of more, but from a panel at PAX I can throw a shout out to Glamow who were super cool at the best panel at PAX Aus and a good representation of just how deep the rabbit hole of Indie games expressing a singular idea can get.

[DragonKnight Zero]

An interesting topic and one I want to give a more thoughtful response to than a cynical "yes, games are that bad" in a feminist context.  Have a bunch of scattered thoughts and if I try to organize them, I'll never get around to putting any of them down so rambling follows:

  Not everyone here is going to see feminism the same way.  Which is OK until people start laying into each other trying to convince someone their point of view is wrong.  My stand is for a society where women have an equal playing field so to speak.  Ideally, they would have the same opportunities are far as life paths to take without others shutting doors on them because of being female.  This does include a society where women aren't experiencing sexual assault at a far higher percentage than men though that's a conversation for a different space.

  What constitutes a strong female character?  Can someone be girly-girl in appearance and even have some of the same stereotypical interests and still be a strong female.  Jessica of Lunar says hi.  She's capable of looking and acting ladylike and also likes adventuring.  She's also very willing to speak her mind.  If she encounters someone objectifying women, that someone has a tongue lashing coming and possibly a beating too, even if never shown.  The first character that came to mind with the original question is Alys Brangwim of Phantasy Star 4.  She's a skilled professional who is aware that some are attracted to her feminine traits.  She doesn't posture and doesn't turn into a "love-starved twit" over the attention she receives.  Alas, not the main character and (REDACTED) so PS4 doesn't really fit the feminist game criteria.

  Being a action girl like Samus, destroyer of planets, is not the only way to be a strong female, I feel.  I do find it a Good Thing (TM) that such characters exist so that women and girls can picture themselves in such roles though would prefer that not being a stopping point. Not a game but Belle from the animated Beauty and the Beast manages to be a strong female lead without ever needing to "prove" herself by getting into a brawl and coming out on top.  Letting women choose how they wish to express themselves without condemning them is an important element of feminism, I feel.  If a women enjoys frilly dresses and tea parties as a voluntary, conscious choice and someone condemns her as being non-feminist, well that doesn't say anything about her but says a lot about someone's compulsion to criticize.

  One more random thought before I peace out.  I'm going to single out Atelier Meruru.  Haven't played it but do have a little bit a familiarity with the premise from outside sources.  Meruru is altruistic royalty who deosn't care for pretentiousness and wants to use alchemy for the benefit of the citizens.  She's a capable fighter who willingly fights dragons head-on if she's looking for dragon ingredients for alchemy.  So far, so good.  Her outfit has an extremely short skirt and it may be intentional design for the purpose of showing off her bloomers.  Does her appearance make her non-feminist?  The line will be different from person to person.  There isn't a set right or wrong point of view.  I did deliberately provide an example that will make some readers uncomfortable.  My take is that she can still be a strong character in actions and character and that exploitative appearance alone isn't enough to make her weak.  Sometimes it's obvious a line has been crossed (what happened to the Valis games) but things aren't always so cut and dry.

[dunie]

Well I am pretty sure there is one way to work on that gap in indie stuff that lines up with advice I had been giving you >_>

Now a developer that specifically works towards a feminist agenda is an interesting one.   None come to mind but that is because Dev teams tend to work away in obscurity either by design in Triple A for marketing purposes or just in actual obscurity because of no visibility.

Also there is the question of like, do you put a lower limit on team size?  Like a one person studio count if that person isenrifies as a Feminist?

Probably the noteworthy one is Motion Twin, they are an attempt to run as an anarcho syndicalist collective but they are sort of known for the success of the game (Dead Cells) rather than that.  It is also conflating chunks of my socialism with feminism (though ofc I think they are tightly intertwined)


Some pet favorites from local stuff, Route 59 who are working on Necrobarista generally seems pretty on board, but that is based on hanging out on their discord and them being generally super cool people and being small enough that they can just be social on the internet.

Otherwise you get into smaller teams, I should probably be able to think of more, but from a panel at PAX I can throw a shout out to Glamow who were super cool at the best panel at PAX Aus and a good representation of just how deep the rabbit hole of Indie games expressing a singular idea can get.

I checked all of those out a little bit ago after you had already posted this. Thanks for sharing this. You know I always found feminism more useful as a tool rather than some ontological pinnacle. From the last posts I'm now comfortable redirecting my thought to how feminism my be useful within the industry, for contemporary game and narrative development, and for reconsidering Old Things.

[metroid composite]

Depends what is meant by the question.  Feminism is kind-of trendy right now, so companies will try to ride that wave at least on a shallow level.  Overwatch is about 50% female in its cast for example.

The games market has also been 50% female for a while now, like more than 10 years, just the female-audience games are much more like facebook and mobile games, which are not really the focus of the RPGDL (unless they are facebook or mobile games based off of Fire Emblem).  A game with a more than 50% female audience doesn't necessarily make it feminist (you could argue about stereotypes when it comes to stuff like Cooking Mama).  But such games will also avoid the kind of things that tend to drive away female audiences (such as scantily clad female charcters).  So...free from stuff that actively drives away female audience, but often still a slave to the gender binary.

And obviously there are indie games that are actually feminist and made by feminists.

[Cmdr_King]

https://jackofalltrdes.blogspot.com/2018/12/wright-wednesday-turnabout-sisters-day.html

The presentation is a bit internet video (it's all text, but ... well anyway) but they get into how Mia's death is used in the first PW game and it feels relevant to the discussion, in part because most folk here have in fact played Phoenix Wright.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The writers there do a pretty good job of going into that one. Fridging is an unfortunate trope, but Mia's case has enough huge asterisks (the fact that informs Maya's motivation as much as Phoenix's, the fact that she continues to play a major plot role) that it feels like a rather non-egregious version. Still happy to see it brought up.

The games market has also been 50% female for a while now, like more than 10 years, just the female-audience games are much more like facebook and mobile games, which are not really the focus of the RPGDL (unless they are facebook or mobile games based off of Fire Emblem).  A game with a more than 50% female audience doesn't necessarily make it feminist (you could argue about stereotypes when it comes to stuff like Cooking Mama).  But such games will also avoid the kind of things that tend to drive away female audiences (such as scantily clad female charcters).  So...free from stuff that actively drives away female audience, but often still a slave to the gender binary.

I think a lot of this is spot on too. Although I am somewhat inclined to quibble with the scantily-clad female characters bit. To use the example already referenced, well, the aforementioned mobile Fire Emblem has quite its share of those, and enjoys (anecdotally at least) a large female audience. Though in FEH's case (and other such games successful with women), (a) there are a wide variety of female characters and the state of dress varies tremendously, so it's easy for a player to choose what appeals to her, and (b) there's definitely some similar fanservice involving the male characters too, if not as often.

[NotMiki]

I would be really interested to see how Fortnite breaks down by gender, on that note.

Recently reminded of this because I was watching TV and there was a commercial for...some streaming thing, don't recall what, starring Ninja taking a young black girl under his wing - kind of a strange spot considering Ninja is on record saying he won't stream with women because he's apparently a younger Mike Pence, but the more interesting part there is the target audience.

Fortnite's playership is about 75% male, 25% female, apparently (compared to a 7% playership of FPSs generally, according to that other study).  Not sure about age breakdown but anecdotally, dominated by teens.  I couldn't begin to make a serious argument about gender roles in Fortnite, but if we're looking at where games are headed, the one with the biggest media presence is a good place to start.

[Captain K]

There was an article about Ninja in ESPN magazine last month. The reason he doesn't team up with females is because he doesn't want to stress the relationship with his wife. Which I understand. Gaming partners have a version of intimacy (not sexual, but closeness) that can be stronger than real life at times.

[dunie]

What a profitably unbold and convenient damage control statement to make.

[NotMiki]

The response to that for me is basixally the same as for Mike Pence: if you're creating a special space for networking and advancement and that space can only be occupied by men, you're reinforcing the glass ceiling.