Author Topic: Three Houses and Politics  (Read 10291 times)

Luther Lansfeld

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Part 3 - The Men of Three Houses
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2020, 12:31:15 AM »
Part 3 - The Men of Three Houses

Part 3 is going to be a little less about analyzing the game’s politics and more just talking about the different types of men featured in the game from a feminist perspective, from male feminist to misogynist prick. And trust me, the game knows when it has a misogynist prick on its hands.

Hubert is the first person who really stands out from me from a positive male feminist perspective. I wrote extensively about this already, but he is unapologetically and unquestionably pro-Edelgard in all ways, and he respects and admires her without being motivated by his lust for her. Regardless of if you believe he crushes on her or just really respects her, he is clearly a valuable ally of hers who never steps on her toes, asserts dominance over her, or in any way makes her feel stupid or inferior. And if you thought he was just an Edelgard fanboy, he is also immensely respectful toward all of the women in his house, and he treats their concerns and ideas and feelings with respect. And his support with Shamir reflects their similar value systems, and he respects her viewpoint even if he doesn’t fully understand her and she doesn’t fully understand him.

The other guy who stands out to me from a feminist perspective is Ashe. Unlike the Faerghus male nobility, Ashe doesn’t seem to have major hang-ups about women and seems to treat them as people, but at the same time, he seems to understand that women are treated differently in society than men and acts accordingly. His relationships with Ingrid, Mercedes, and Annette are all comfortable and friendly; he is respectful and kind to all of them, and treats them as friends. In the support added in the DLC, he even goes out of his way to choose a story about a female knight to Hapi to try to show her that knights aren’t all bad. I feel like he has an awkward relationship with Catherine, but considering that she executed his father and brother, he treats her with about as much respect as you could possibly expect given the circumstances.

After Hubert and Ashe, I think of a large group of men who are not really pro-feminist, but if you explained it to them they’d probably get it, even if not fully, but nor would they say “well that’s not my experience!”. I think Dedue is the highest on this list; he seems to really look at people with an egalitarian eye and doesn’t really consider the gender of the person he’s interacting with as relevant at all. You can read this as part of Duscur’s culture (he also clearly respected his mom and inherited his love of cooking from her) or simply as a part of his general social awkwardness / mannerisms, but it comes off as authentic. I think due to his own background of oppression that he would be willing to lend a sympathetic ear to women’s plights. Ferdinand is a bit more socially adept than Dedue but also seems to not have much of an eye for the social differentiating between men and women; his objection to Edelgard seems to be in his misplaced rivalry with her and his objection to Hilda is that she is lazy and manipulative. In neither case does he seem to be concerned about gender at all. I feel like Ferdinand would definitely lend a sympathetic ear to women who were being mistreated in society even if he wouldn’t fully understand at first; we see him trying to grapple with the violence Dorothea experienced in her backstory and he navigates it about as well as someone of his privilege could reasonably do.

Unlike Dedue and Ferdinand, who I think legitimately don’t consider gender as a part of their calculations, Dimitri is quite flustered by women as a man who has grown up in a socially conservative culture, and often struggles to navigate his interactions with them. Aside from Mercedes, who has a tendency to disarm most people she talks to with her general ~chill~, he has fraught relationships with most of the other women his supports. He tries to be deeply respectful of the women in his life and even has this idol/crush dynamic going with Catherine, but he has nooo idea how to approach the subject with her without coming off as awkward as hell. Like Ferdinand and Dedue, I think he’d be open to listening to women’s concerns with a sympathetic ear.

(Some critiques of Dimitri from a feminist perspective point at his obsessive hatred for Edelgard as proof that he is a woman hater, but I don’t think that his fixation with Edelgard is gendered at all, but rather derives in the desire to find someone to blame for the things that he could never find the answer to. I don’t think her being female is at all a factor in why he dislikes her; it is due to her actions. You can argue about how rational it is that he blames her, but I strongly feel like it is not because of her gender that he feels this way. As I have argued before, if you are going to have a female antagonist, you can’t pull punches on the way people feel about her or you diminish the message.)

Alois also falls into this category; out of the male staff members, he is the only one who seems to be particularly aware of these issues and isn’t weird toward women at all. He treats Bernadetta with respect and love and honestly that’s one of my criteria. Out of the Golden Deer men, who otherwise all annoy me on this front, Ignatz is a good man who is nice and respectful to the women in his life, even if he is uber-anxious around everyone by default. I think both of these guys would also take women’s problems seriously and change their behavior if asked.

Caspar has his own dumb guy personality which sometimes translates well on this front (he is one of the few people who says “Hey Dorothea, I don’t understand why people judge you for your lifestyle!”) and sometimes translates as insensitive (“You hauled me around like a piece of luggage!”). Overall I think Caspar is on the side of good, but he’s a doofus so he will sometimes fuck things up.

Claude is a person who I have mixed feelings on; one one hand, he obviously admired and looks up to his mother, but on the other hand, I feel like he is frequently condescending to Lysithea and uses Marianne as a vector to ramble about himself, neither traits which I personally find very appealing. As I commented in this topic before, I found him to be a mansplainer but he is this way to almost everyone, so it is hard for me to get a true read on if he’s just a self-centred jackass or a misogynist. I kind of feel like he might interject you with a “but actually” if you tried to explain things outside of his personal experience to him. But I think he would ultimately be sympathetic if you explained it in terms that he understood, but would not be as easy to convince as the above men. Linhardt falls into a similar category, but I feel like he is a little worse because a) he doesn’t have the trait of admiring his mom and b) we encounter a woman trying to explain to him how misogyny affects her and he does “but actually” her, so…yeah.  But he is overall respectful of women even if he lives on his own planet.

Hanneman is similar to Linhardt, but he gives me more ‘old man at Starbucks’ vibes, where he gives a cutesy title to his female students (Miss Marianne/Lysithea/Annette), whereas he does not interact with his male students in the same way. (Nor does he address Edelgard this way, but she is literally the heir to the throne of his home country so…) He is also excessively condescending to Manuela in a way which is quite insufferable. I think he is even more out of touch than Linhardt and would not respond well to criticism on this front, which is why I have overall less respect for him than Lin.

Raphael… uhh.. that Lysithea support gives me some really bad vibes, in both his treatment of Lys and his inferred treatment of his sister. If a young women wants you to treat their concerns seriously, then you should not laugh at them or make fun of them! Nothing else that he does really makes up for this. Cyril is a condescending asshole to almost everyone, but especially Manuela, Hilda, and to a lesser extent Lysithea. I can’t decide if he’s a misogynist or just a hatable little prick.

Felix is like Dimitri in that he is utter garbage at interacting with women, but he also uses misogyny as a form of weaponized assault on his friend Ingrid, which feels more like he just wanted to get under Ingrid’s skin than anything else, but still feels quite mean-spirited and definitely not something a good ally would do!

Seteth is generally quite amiable toward his female colleagues and generally treats women with respect… except his daughter, who he treats in an extraordinarily overbearing and unreasonable way. He spends almost all of his comment box items and his conversations with Byleth during instruct time pearl-clutching about his daughter wanting to have sex or go on a date or whatever, and he will do whatever he can to PROTECT HIS BABY FROM HARM, even though god, didn’t she fight in a war? Isn’t she kind of a badass canonically? Why are you treating your daughter like some creepy promise ring dad from the South? stop it.

Gilbert… spends all of his time dwelling on his feelings and Lambert’s feelings and Dimitri’s feelings, but seems to devote very little time to Annette’s feelings and his wife’s feelings. He does deeply, unbelievably hurtful things to his family and has the audacity to, when Annette tries to get him to INTERACT WITH HER, say “if you don’t want me around, say the word and I will leave forever”. You ASSHOLE. It is extremely hard for me to read his actions as anything but gendered, especially considering that he treats Dimitri more like his son than he treats Annette like his daughter.

“Oh! I also heard about how I'm total trash and everyone should avoid me. That might be my favorite.” Sylvain is trash and he knows it. He assumes that every single woman that he interacts with is trying to manipulate him because they want his money, status, or power, and that no one could love him for who he is. Which obviously derives primarily from deep-seated self-hatred, but he shifts the blame to women quite frequently, and he lies to them and is often creepy and disingenuous toward them. He frequently treats women in the same way that he claims that they treat him, dwelling on superficial aspects of their personality and then throwing them away when he gets bored after leading them on a wild goose chase and pretending he likes them. In his support with Dorothea, he says that he is in love with every single woman he flirts with, which is obviously totally false and transparently eyeroll-worthy. The only redeeming feature of Sylvain is that he opens up to Mercedes after she dresses him down for the river of lies that pours out of his mouth, and that maybe he finally understands that HE is the one being a useless sack of turds. The game gave him so many supports with women that end in B because they are mocking the shit out of him and it’s hilarious.

The only person who could compete with Sylvain in sheer obnoxiousness is Lorenz Hellman Gloucester, of course. Unlike Sylvain, who sees women as horrible, manipulative bitches, Lorenz mostly sees them as objects to fulfill his desire to marry a proper lady as part of his NOBLE DUTY. Unlike Sylvain, who seems fully aware of the fact that he is a living, breathing garbage dump, Lorenz seems to think that he is a gift bestowed upon the women of Fodlan and behaves as such. To Lysithea, he is condescending because she doesn’t see the value of being a perfect noble. To Marianne, he gives speeches about I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN EXPOSE HER TRUE BEAUTY. To Hilda, she manipulates him because he is using her to curry the favor of her brother? And his supports with Dorothea and Mercedes are both just gross and also display the degree to which he sees women in his life for how useful they are to him. And unlike Sylvain, who seems to have a revelation about how terrible he is at least in one support, Lorenz does give up his notion of rating women in his life as it pertains to his status but still doesn’t seem to think of them as fully formed humans, which is why he’s last and fuck him.

I decided to abstain on Yuri and Balthus because I haven’t seen as much of them, and Jeritza needs therapy so badly that I can’t really tell with him.

(I will note humorously that the men in my top seven are evenly distributed from top to bottom on this list.)

Anyway, thanks for reading! Again! <3
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 12:34:12 AM by Luther Lansfeld »
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Random Consonant

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2020, 05:48:44 PM »
Quote
Seteth is generally quite amiable toward his female colleagues and generally treats women with respect… except his daughter, who he treats in an extraordinarily overbearing and unreasonable way. He spends almost all of his comment box items and his conversations with Byleth during instruct time pearl-clutching about his daughter wanting to have sex or go on a date or whatever, and he will do whatever he can to PROTECT HIS BABY FROM HARM, even though god, didn’t she fight in a war? Isn’t she kind of a badass canonically? Why are you treating your daughter like some creepy promise ring dad from the South? stop it.

I'd say something about him clearly having hangups over the whole "Nemesis and the Dubstep Molemen committing an act of deicide-genocide for the sake of vast kagatopia powers and Flayn nearly dying because of it" thing but that would require less of well... what you describe and more of him being better utilized in general because it's played way too much for comedy and faking a sister complex doesn't make the act any funnier so at the same time I'm not sure this is harsh enough.

I... don't have a whole lot to say otherwise since I largely agree with everything said.  Claude clearly came across as a case of "convinced he's smarter than everyone and wants people to know it" to me but yeah he's still worse than Caspar and Ignatz who at worst either just say things without thinking or engage in adolescent daydreaming.  Cyril's a prick but his interactions with Manuela/Hilda/Lysithea just feel like he finds them utterly incomprehensible rather than them having anything to do with gender but good luck getting through to him, offhand I'd think he could be argued as better than Raphael and his schtick but no higher since the question is whether he's just that dumb or is worse at this whole empathy thing than frickin' Linhardt.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 06:20:27 PM by Random Consonant »

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2020, 04:08:30 AM »
They sacrificed the character work for the 'joke' with Seteth and the joke isn't that funny. And it makes Seteth come off as very very punchable in those interactions, which is a shame because that relationship should have been the keystone for both characters.

Cyril... you know, I was debating if I wanted to even bother rating him since I didn't really know where to place him other than blargh this guy's a dick and I don't like him. Above Raphael is reasonable, since Raph participates in actively misogynistic garbage whereas Cyril is just an irritable asshole to everyone. Less empathy than Linhardt is just kinda sad, I agree. I will note that both Claude and Cyril respect Shamir, and both do not respect Ignatz, so it might be some Almyran cultural values at play there where warriors, men or women, are respected but people with more docile personalities (like Ignatz) or more feminine/small (like Lysithea) are not as well respected. No one really gives Shamir misogynist shit or they might end up with their balls in the nearest meat grinder, so that might be part of it as well. :D
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VySaika

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2020, 05:44:36 PM »
Having grown up in The Rural South, I uh...I knew dudes like Raph. He doesn't bother me AS much...because I didn't expect much from him in the first place, tbh? Like, yeah, he's gonna be dumb and muleheaded but does at least seem to have a good heart and that feels like the most I can reasonably expect.

Which is probably pretty damning on its own, tbf.

I love Ashe and Ignatz, they are both such nice dudes. Poor Ignatz just has 0 self confidence(due to family who tries to run his life for him and is controlling GEE I WONDER WHY I EMPATHIZE WITH THAT), but I put them on about the same tier.

Personally I love the idea that Caspar is a trans man who is trying WAY too hard to be Manly(as teenage boys are wont to do) and this is the source of most of his derpshittery.

As far as Lorenz Hellman Gloucester goes, I think the only interaction he has with a woman I didn't want to roll my eyes out of my head from is with Manuella. She keeps him at a pretty good disadvantage for a lot of it, tbh. But uh, that doesn't change how trashfire he is, naturally.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2020, 04:31:19 AM »
I do feel like Raphael feels like a dumb farmboy from the South who peddles in low grade misogyny in his interactions with women. Ignatz I had some trouble rating, as I don't have a great sense of his character relative to most of the others, but him being near Ashe would make sense. I just kinda waved my hands in the general direction of "good boy".

Lorenz's support with Manuela is pretty good and he is actually not a total tool in that support, I agree. I considered that vs. the Mercedes support for Sylvain and thought Sylvain came out on top, slightly. Not that beating Lorenz in a not being a tool contest is very hard or very impressive. And their support together is so great because it mocks the shit out of both so relentlessly.
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Luther Lansfeld

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The Ferdinand Hype Zone
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2020, 03:49:20 AM »
The Man Who Refused to Conform to Expectations

I have a confession; I am a transformed Ferdinand fangirl and unrepentant Ferdibert shipper. So today, I will be discussing Ferdinand von Aegir.

I think there are a few characters in the game that ultimately rose above my expectations for them, but I feel like the most striking head fake is Ferdinand. At first, I remember seeing him and sighing. “Oh dear, here’s the head-in-his-ass rival who spends all of his time obsessing over the main character”, and in the first two supports I saw, Byleth and Edelgard, this suspicion was confirmed. And in the monastery, he implores you to “grab a piece of paper” as he recounts all of the titles of the Adrestian nobility. “This guy’s such an idiot,” I thought, and wrote him off as a joke character.

There are many supports pre-TS which reinforce this early notion that he is a bit of a dolt. His C support with Lorenz is insufferable, his C support with Bernie makes him come off as insensitive, and his C with Dorothea’s support he comes off as having his head up his own ass. This is an image that the game consistently cultivates. Hubert finds him complete unbearable, and while I think Hubert is a bit harsh on him in the C support, I can’t disagree with the general sentiment that “your obsession with all things superficial is disgusting”.

The first support I saw that hinted something lying beneath the veneer was his B support with Bernadetta, where he expresses distress and regret that he treated Bernadetta in such an uncaring way, to the point that Bernie is almost embarrassed at how apologetic he is. In this support we see empathy and mutual respect for someone who obviously suffers from anxiety and mental illness, as opposed to the self-absorbed fluff that we see previously from him. He is genuinely sad that he made Bernie feel uncomfortable and tries to make amends. And throughout the support with Dorothea, he treats her with respect despite her obvious contempt for him.

His character growth and his changing point of view on the world are both evident pre-timeskip, as he learns more and more things that are outside of his traditional worldview that was handed to him by his father, we see him change and open up his mind. No longer does he view nobility as this purely positive influence on the world, even though he believes that true nobility should be. He still rejects the idea that nobility is a net negative on society, but he accepts that things are not as rosy as he saw them before.

The rest of this discussion will primarily focus on Crimson Flower Ferdinand, as I feel that his development on other routes is not as robust and doesn’t make as much sense, especially without Edelgard and Huber to interact with. So spoilers for CF within.

Post-timeskip, we see a changed man. In Edelgard’s A support, we see that he cares deeply for educating people and sees that as a core function of future governance. He believes that, in replacing a traditional aristocratic system, you need to ensure that there are competent, prepared people for the job, and universal public education is the bridge to that. In Dorothea’s A support we see him grapple with information that shakes his value system to its core, and he responds not with anger but with, again, empathy and mutual respect for Dorothea. In his supports with Petra, he admits that he had stereotyped people of Brigid as primitive, revealing his own racist upbringing, but realized that his beliefs were wrong and adjusted them accordingly. In his Bernadetta A support we see him reach out to his troubled friend and reassure her that she is valid and people care for her.

If you know the nature of Ciatokins, you know that my favorite ship in 3H is Ferdinand x Hubert, also known as Ferdibert. In the C support, they express mutual contempt for each other, and in the B support, they debate over the merits of consulting your lord before doing something against their will. In this case I think both of them have a point, but I understand why Ferdinand reacts with "wait, what the fuck, dude, why are you advocating for sedition."

However, they both have the same goal - to reform the government to be more equitable to all peoples, not just people who are rich and / or have Crests. They both want to serve Edelgard to achieve those goals, and even though they are different, they realize that working together will help them achieve their goals more efficiently than if they squabble.

The A+ honestly just exists to be the gayest thing ever, but you can see the differences between the Crown Jewels of the Adrestian Empire shine through here. Ferdinand is honest and forthcoming about giving a gift to Hubert, and doesn’t fully understand why Hubert is choosing to be a tsundere about this gift. But he rolls with it, realizing that it’s not really in Hubert’s nature to be friendly or sweet, and takes in the moment.

Anyway, he ends up being a kind, compassionate person who cares deeply for both his friends and the people who live in his country. When he learns that his society is flawed, he takes the challenge head-on to fix it. When he learns that he no longer has to be Edelgard’s rival, he instead embraces his role as her advisor with enthusiasm. And when he deals with a potential tsundere goth boy love interest, he takes the care and patience to not be angry with him.

And that’s why I love Ferdinand von Aegir Vestra.

Thanks for reading. :)
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Random Consonant

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2020, 09:47:03 AM »
Feel pretty much the same with Ferdie there yeah, at first I was all like "who the fuck is this guy trying to play to Hubert's Paul von Oberstein act" and then Edelgard's coronation happened and I was all like "ohhhhh, no wonder he acts like this, he actually wants to prove he deserves the job unlike his fuckstain dad because seriously fuck Duke Aegir" and a lot of things ended up looking a lot harsher (like he probably thinks Edelgard actually despises him doesn't he), and then after THAT I saw one of his supports... I think it was either Mercedes or Marianne (think it was the latter although it's kind of hard to recall in hindsight since it wasn't really a strong support in and of itself) where he shares his own personal idea of faith in a world where "everyone has some kind of role to fufill" but never tries to dictate what that role is to others and my first thought after "well that's certainly a take I expected him to have at this point" was "wait a minute, was it ever really about nobility with him or was he just unable to express what he actually believed in outside the context of the prevailing social structure" and taking those together made me realize that no wonder he starts off so annoying, he's so afraid of being locked out that he thinks the only solution is to break all the doors down (FWIW I was bad at getting supports on CF and didn't get Ferdie/Edelgard A so that was the one that tipped things for me.)

And then in what is probably my favorite "Hell Man is incredibly bad at this isn't he" moments where Hell Man is positively aghast at the idea that Ferdinand would visit a tavern for the purpose of consorting with commoners or something Hell Man would think and Ferdie's response basically amounts to "well, why shouldn't I?  Aren't leaders supposed to listen to people?"  This isn't even post-timeskip, his head was never as far up his ass as it seemed, he just needed some help in getting it all the way out and it was probably only there in the first place because the system was designed to produce idiots like Hell Man at best.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2020, 05:32:30 PM »
Not much to add since both of you said things better already, but I really do find it striking how many early Ferdinand interactions (either his C supports, or his early monastery dialogue... even the fact that he kinda scuppers the strategy for the Eagles in Chapter 1 if you're playing as the Lions or Deer) do seem deliberately designed to cultivate the impression that he's a buffoon before you can learn there really is a sweet person underneath all that. Definitely some good writing.

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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2020, 05:24:00 PM »
https://acain882.wixsite.com/magic/blog/

I complied several of the posts in this topic into a blog post. I want to re-tinker with feminism part 2 before posting it, and I decided to omit my rambling about why Silver Snow sucks.

Next thing coming is RHEA CHARACTER ANALYSIS. I HOPE YOU'RE READY, FRIENDS!
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2020, 03:38:02 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFOru1AUT-g

no thoughts left, only ferdibert, this topic is cancelled, ferdibert is canon

« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 03:43:34 AM by Luther Lansfeld »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2020, 02:09:07 AM »
The Death of the Flame Emperor, from a Teacher's Perspective

-This post contains spoilers for Fire Emblem: Three Houses. I assume the reader is familiar with the route structure of the game.
-As the player can choose the gender of Byleth, I will refer to Byleth using they/them pronouns.
-Content warning: suicide

In the Silver Snow route of Fire Emblem: Three Houses, there is a scene called "Death of the Flame Emperor". In it, Emperor Edelgard, who has been defeated in battle, begs Byleth, her former teacher, to kill her. Byleth obliges, executing her as she utters her final regretful words, "I wanted to walk with you". When I first watched this scene, it made me feel extremely uncomfortable, and in this post I try to examine why I felt the way I did, and how my feelings have evolved after considering the circumstances further. It is primarily a personal post, because my feelings here connect strongly with the fact that like Byleth, I am also a teacher, but I think the scene is worth consideration regardless.

(It should be noted, before we go on, that this scene also occurs on Claude's route. However, the framing for the scene is different, so I will talk mainly about its use on Silver Snow here.)

I considered first the possibility that I might simply dislike the scene because it features the death of a character I like. However, I quickly found that explanation lacking. After all, I had already seen Edelgard's death in Dimitri's route, and while that version of the scene is tragic in its own way, it did not make me feel this discomfort. Similarly, I had already seen the death of Dimitri, another personal favourite character from the game, and again had not felt this way. The Silver Snow scene is fundamentally different from other death scenes in the game.

A teacher's betrayal: One major difference lies in the fact that Byleth was Edelgard's teacher. A teacher has a trusted relationship with his or her students, to support them and help them grow. Edelgard placed a great amount of trust in Byleth in while she was their student, even going so far as to share with them the profound abuse she experienced as a child. By choosing to kill Edelgard, Byleth essentially gives up on her: on any hope she might have to learn, to become a better person, to redeem herself for past failures. A teacher should not give up on thir student. Doing so represents a clear betrayal of both the trust Edelgard placed in them, and of their role.

Edelgard's mental illness: Others have written more eloquently than I on this subject: Edelgard is mentally and emotionally unwell, scarred by the abuse she suffered as a child. She has tied up all of her worth as a person into her quest to make sure none suffer as she has. It is no surprise, then, that when faced with the fact that she has failed, she feels she has no more reason to be alive. That she begs for death is sadly understandable. BUT. That in no way suggests that Byleth was right to give her that death. Edelgard is far from the first person suffering from mental illness who believes, in the moment, that death is preferable to life. I don't think I even need to say how problematic it is for someone else to agree with them, let alone "help" them die. Edelgard in this scene is a broken person standing at the edge of a cliff, Byleth responds, not by extending a hand, but by giving her a push. Her teacher. It's disgusting.


Comparison to similar scenes: To be clear, I'm not making a value judgement on whether Edelgard deserves to live or not. It's entirely possible that one might judge her to deserve execution for her actions. Such a decision, however, should be made following proper consideration (i.e. a trial), not as a spur-of-the-moment thing. Additionally, had Edelgard been actively seeking to take another's life (as she was in the corresponding scene in the Azure Moon route), then killing her could have been a morally justified action, even by Byleth, in defence of one's self or another. This is not the case in the Silver Snow scene, where Edelgard is clearly no longer able to fight and at the mercy of the victors.

This is also far from the only scene where an antagonist is judged on the spot and killed; heck, it's a possible fate for both Dimitri and Claude on the Crimson Flower route. And to be clear, I think any such scenes probably deserve an examination and only rarely, if ever, would I consider the actions of the killers in such scenes to be moral ones. Yet again, it's the specifics here - that Byleth is Edelgard's teacher, that she clearly is an unwell person embracing death - that make the scene extra problematic. I can't think of many other scenes where I felt so viscerally that the player avatar had just done something very wrong.


The Silver Snow choice: Edelgard's death in Silver Snow is, however, a choice the player (usually) makes. In Chapter 11 of Edelgard's route, the player is given a simple choice: "Protect Edelgard" or "Kill Edelgard". It is the "kill Edelgard" choice that leads to Silver Snow, and so one can think of this scene as a simple reflection of the player's choice, 8 chapters removed. Perhaps my reaction to this reflects how wrong I think taking the "kill Edelgard" choice is. (Although, in defence of those who do pick it, the game doesn't give you any middle ground between that choice and taking Edelgard's side.)


The scene in the context of Verdant Wind:: The same scene plays on Claude's route, although I don't think it fits there very well. Edelgard still calls Byleth "my teacher", which makes little sense. As is obvious to anyone who has played both, Verdant Wind and Silver Snow share some copy/pasting of content between the two, and this is one scene which I very much think is written with Silver Snow in mind, despite (or perhaps because of!) the fact that it feels so deeply wrong on that route. However, I will note that Byleth's action feels much less problematic on Verdant Wind: they are not betraying their role as Edelgard's teacher, and lack the personal connection and insight into her trauma and illness.


The intent of the scene: I am not certain whether the effect the scene has on me is the intended one. Certainly, as a teacher, it feels deeply wrong, yet I do not get the impression that the writers of this game were teachers themselves, so perhaps they didn't understand how it would feel. But overall I am inclined to think there's a high chance the scene was written with causing player discomfort as a goal. To cut someone down as they tearfully say "I wanted to walk with you-" seems calculated to cause sadness and regret, and thus I suspect the writers were encouraging the player to play the route where he or she sides with Edelgard instead. This might be because they just wanted the player to see more of the game, or perhaps, like me, they thought the other choice is the better one.

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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2020, 04:23:46 AM »
I also found this scene to be an enormous gut punch on Silver Snow, as opposed to VW where it just comes off as weird (and lazy, having seen it in Silver Snow). I dunno if it's just the creepiness of the silent main really shining through, but Byleth looks so soulless and unpleasant in that scene.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Let Them Eat Cake
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2020, 08:53:47 PM »
Let Them Eat Cake
 
or why having an immortal, out-of-touch ruling class is an inevitable cause of conflict

Spoilers for all routes, but especially Silver Snow/ Verdant Wind.
 
In my previous essay about the politics of Three Houses in the first post in this topic, I talked about the ways in which Rhea wields both hard and soft power, and how that causes most of the major conflict in the game. Much like the European medieval papacy, Rhea exerts a lot of soft control over the continent, and is able to protect her own power and enforce her will using a combination of her army and her pull with the various nobles of the Kingdom and the Alliance.
 
But does Rhea have the best interests of the average citizen of Fodlan at heart? I would say that she is chiefly concerned with a) reviving her dead mother, which has been her primary goal for the last thousand years and b) concentrating power. The needs of the nations that she influences and the people who rely on her guidance are notably NOT part of her priority list. If the purpose of having political power is to use it to promote the greater good, Rhea clearly is not doing that, since she is chiefly interested in her own power. You can argue that her desire to revive her mother represents what her version of the ‘greater good’ entails; she believes that her mother can fix the world’s problems, and that her quest to revive mommy is therefore acting in the interests of the greater good. I would, however, counter propose that if it hasn’t worked for a thousand years, it should probably not be your go-to plan for solving world problems.
 
Due to the backstory of the game, where the humans betrayed the Nabateans and Nemesis crafted their bones into weapons, the remaining members of their ancient race have complicated feelings on humanity. Both Indech and Macuil have chosen to largely distance themselves from both humanity and from Seiros. Cichol and Cethleann also lived a life of seclusion (with Cethleann in draconic sleep mode) until 16 years before the present. Seiros, meanwhile, has been living in the world of humans and running the affairs of the Church of Seiros, which has its hands in every pie in the country through its military force and its soft power to crown rulers and declare war on countries, implicitly believing that the church’s will should be obeyed.
 
I’ve never really liked Seteth (Cichol) or Flayn (Cethleann) from a morality perspective all that much, although they seem to be reasonably popular characters whom people often describe in endearing terms. Flayn is a ‘sweet girl’. Seteth is a ‘nice DILF’. So why am I not comfortable with them? I feel as if they come off as an out-of-touch elite class of people, people who don’t really care much for the lives of the common man, and don’t seem to be able to grapple with the problems that people face in their society.
 
We see in Part 1 that Rhea and her coterie is very capable of stamping out people who disagree with her. When Lonato raises a rebellion or when the Western Church does not obey her will, she stamps them out. She seems to have very little interest in understanding the mechanisms that cause these people to be angry, but rather, she wants them to die because they oppose her. And that’s what happens, over and over, in Part 1.
 
But it’s not just Rhea. In Seteth and Flayn’s paralogue, we see that Seteth and Flayn have decided that getting people from a different sect away from Seteth’s wife/Flayn’s mother’s grave is worth sectarian violence, even to the point that you are NOT ALLOWED TO LET THE ENEMIES ESCAPE. They, uh, could have made the battle just end when you killed the bosses, but instead chose to make it kill all enemies with an extra escape mission. At the end, Seteth and Flayn are satisfied that you have eliminated the enemies from her grave.
 
As all conversations about Three Houses tend to arc toward Edelgard’s action, I am going to discuss the reactions of the three ‘lords’ of the other routes to her.
 
I’ve played all of the routes, and in Azure Moon and Verdant Wind, we see Dimitri and Claude grapple with their feelings on her actions. Dimitri doesn’t really understand how she could feel so strongly about the Church of Seiros that she would start a war even though people are suffering, and Claude, while he understands more clearly her issues with Fodlan society as a whole, does not approve of her methods. (I wonder what his plan for deposing Rhea was that was non-violent… but we never get the chance to see that.)
 
Meanwhile, in Silver Snow, we have Seteth and Flayn as your protagonists, who seem to be utterly incapable of comprehending why people would not be satisfied with the permanent rule of their benevolent race of dragons, even as Rhea fabricates history and controls information through book burning, suppression of technology, and general tyranny and abuse of power.
 
They fabricate this image of Edelgard, this wicked woman who wants to BECOME A FALSE GODDESS, who has deceived the poor soldiers into fighting for her, who does not represent anyone but her own deranged self. There is never an acknowledgement of the negligence and abuse of power from the Church of Seiros that leads to this revolution, never a question of Rhea’s rule being anything but stellar, and never a curiosity of why, perhaps, a counsel of an dragon race represented by seven people on the entire planet should be the arbiter of life on the entire continent?
 
One thing I noticed about both Seteth and Flayn is how they commented on the tragedy of fighting in sacred places (the tomb of Flayn’s mother, Enbarr, Garreg Mach) over the people who fight and die in war, and it is consistent with a conservative ideology, which holds tradition and order as the highest priority, rather than people. Also, Flayn, after the first battle in Enbarr, comments that “the lives of Rhea and everyone here [in the party] are more important than all else!” which shows that she is willing to bring mere mortals into her circle of people important enough to value their lives, at least as long as they work to reestablish the natural order of the world where dragons rule :)
 
Dark Holy Elf already discussed the scene with Byleth and Edelgard after Enbarr, but I am going to discuss the scene afterwards, where Hubert leaves a letter for the party to go to Shambala to hunt down those who slither in the dark. The framing of this scene is interesting because in Verdant Wind, Claude talks about how Hubert is a better person than Claude ever thought he was in life because he sent this letter to save humanity, but Seteth, Flayn, and Byleth collectively in SS basically have no acknowledgement at all of Hubert’s motivation, despite the fact that Hubert is actually Byleth’s student in SS and not VW!
 
(Incidentally, I think it’s a bit funny that the Nabateans, despite in theory knowing about the slitherers for a long time, have no fucking idea where they are or anything about them. Meanwhile, some 24 year old human man has meticulously gathered information about this threat to Rhea/humanity, way more than Rhea or her toadies do! This fits with my general theory that Rhea is a terrible mastermind and basically just drunk at the wheel while managing to maintain power mostly through sheer will rather than any competence.)
 
At the end of Silver Snow, there is a counsel of Rhea, Seteth, Flayn, and Byleth, all Nabateans or imbued with the power of a goddess, talking about who deserves to be the next ruler of the continent (spoilers, it’s one of them). This is very solid and made me feel like I made the right decision at every point in my journey! Just kidding, I wanted to delete my save and play Crimson Flower another ten times.
 
But you might say, but Luther, isn’t Seteth and Flayn acting like 18th century French aristocrats in line with the general feeling that the ruling class of the church is out of touch with humans? Isn’t that a good thing in the context of character development? I feel like I should agree, but having seen the common portrayals of these characters as nice and well-meaning as opposed to privileged and out of touch makes me generally uncomfortable with them, even though they seem to represent what they were ‘intended’ to represent?
 
I’m sure it won’t surprise you that I think eternal theocratic rule by an elite class of out-of-touch people of privilege is a pretty terrible endgame. It makes everything that happened completely pointless AND further solidifies the church’s iron rule on the continent, transforming their soft power to complete, absolute authority. Fan-fucking-tastic.
 
So let them eat cake, bitches. While I start up another Crimson Flower file.  8-)
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Random Consonant

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2020, 09:52:55 PM »
Yeah at the end of the day for all of the noise Seteth makes about how the current status quo is proooobably not all that great he still chooses to go along with enabling it out of... who knows, charitably you could say that he simply either has that much respect for Rhea or is too afraid to actually go against her but in hindsight...

Quote
They fabricate this image of Edelgard, this wicked woman who wants to BECOME A FALSE GODDESS, who has deceived the poor soldiers into fighting for her, who does not represent anyone but her own deranged self.

It's hard to read this as being anything other than a guilty conscience projecting the sins of the ancien regime onto someone else, even if he does later admit that he was wrong about the whole thing.  And as harsh (and kind of uncomfortably racist if I'm honest though I could be reading a bit too much into things there (perhaps I am a little oversensitive in this regard), but hey this why you probably shouldn't hang around the Dubstep Molemen even if you plan to guillotine them later) as Edelgard comes across in telling Seteth/Flayn that the Nabateans "lack humanity" and thus shouldn't be in a position of power there's little that they actually do to dispute the notion.  Out of touch 18th century French aristocrats pretty much nails it, except I guess we're supposed to give them credit for them not going full reactionary for poorly explained reasons (and again just goes back to those two just being poorly utilized in general).  Edelgard was right, the church and their toadies believed the greatest crime is saying that they failed to govern well, and burning down the kagatopia existing social order was a moral act.

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2020, 10:37:54 PM »
I'm not even sure if Claude's hating on Edelgard's methods is either TREEHOUSE or just him bullshiting to paint himself better because that boy was flat-out planning to conquer Fodlan violently himself.

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2020, 11:25:13 PM »
Crimson Flower Musings - The Anatomy of a Alternate / 'Villain' / 'True' Route
 

One of the enduringly interesting things to me about Three Houses is that Crimson Flower feels somewhere between a villain route and a true route. How does a route feel like both?
 
Although there are differences, the other three routes follow roughly the same template. You start out as an underdog in the war and go through a trajectory of victories until you finally defeat the Empire. In Verdant Wind / Silver Snow, you end up fighting Thales as well.
 
Crimson Flower, however, has a significantly different framing and has you fighting a different enemy: you fight Rhea and the Church of Seiros instead of fighting against the Empire, and one of the major antagonists of the other routes is instead the main character.
 
One of my random favourite lines in the game:
 

I think this line perfectly encapsulates what I aim to talk about today. There is a bit of cheekiness to this exchange that I find quite amusing – the game winking at its own duality. So let’s talk a bit more about the lady of deceit and her sinister servant.
 
Edelgard and Hubert both embrace sort of a villain chic post-timeskip that symbolizes a bit of a commitment to upending the world order at any cost. Edelgard, with her silver hair, devil horned crown, and red dress. Hubert, with his all-black attire, popped collar, and menacing smile.
 
Edelgard starts a war against the Church, a conflict that spans the entire continent, and while she is humanized on her own route, she also seems to believe in her heart that her path is a villainous one, even if she personally sees her cause as righteous. She sees herself as a person willing to drive change, even if it involves starting a continent-spanning conflict and has accepted that she will be seen as a villain by history. In the other routes, she has embraced this role as the catalyst willing to cause change; she regrets that she has to fight Byleth, but she thinks that her sacrifice is necessary to steer the course of history.
 
For his part, Hubert has willingly taken on the mantle of the emperor’s grand vizier. In his appearances in Part 2 as an enemy, he is relentless and cold, and in this antagonist’s role, he shows not only his loyalty to Edelgard but his commitment to the cause of humanity at large, as shown in Verdant Wind and Silver Snow with the letter (despite some misunderstandings on the letter and why it is not sent on Azure Moon, the reason is simply because he was not able to pinpoint the base of the slitherers, not because of some secret grudge he has against Dimitri).
 
When the route splits, you are immediately hit with a different set of circumstances. I love that Chapter 12 is called “The Outset of a Power Struggle” rather than “To War”, which is what non-CF versions of C12 are called. It really frames the conflict in a different light – Edelgard sees it as trying to upend Rhea’s rule and the route is always framed in that way. Characters like Ashe, Lysithea, Lorenz, and Marianne all show different sides of themselves that are not necessarily present on the other routes during the Chapter 12 camp scenes, and Hubert actually opens up to you and is relieved to have your support, despite being suspicious of you before.
 
Side note: I’m not sure exactly how exactly to read into this, but I always thought Hubert’s B support with Byleth imply that he thinks that Byleth might be a slitherer. Evidence:
 
Hubert: I see something of Lord Arundel in you... When I look at you, I feel I can almost see a second self, lurking beneath the surface. It is as if you are in constant dialogue with something inside your heart—something with desires very different from your own. Does that description feel familiar to you at all?
 
At first I thought he was being a weirdo, but having seen it a few times, I think that Hubert is trying to decide if he thinks Byleth is one of the body-swapped.

Anyway...
 
Post-timeskip, you learn that the Death Knight and Those Who Slither in the Dark (framed as unambiguous enemies in the first half of the game) are now both your allies, although in the case of TWSITD that is an extremely uncomfortable alliance. I’m not super interested in getting into the nitty-gritty of why she does it, but the point stands that she has an alliance with people who are unquestionably evil. This gives extra credence to the ‘feeling’ of a villain route, even though Hubert explains exactly what is going on and what his plans are for eliminating them in the future. This is a fairly common conceit for villains; the more sympathetic faction ends up working with a faction that is more unambiguously evil. But in the case of Crimson Flower, you are playing as the more sympathetic faction rather than the traditional good guys.
 
“As more blood wets my feet, they grow heavier with each step. Remorse, resentment, despair... I have dispensed with all such things to come this far.”
 
The weight of having started this war clearly weighs heavy on her as you continue through the story. But she is resolute and determined to see her future through, regardless of the cost. After all, it’s too late to give up now, and a lot of the damage has already been done. One misconception that is bandied about around Edelgard is that she doesn’t care about what she’s done and that she is callous to the will of others. I disagree. She may not deem those things as important as her goals, but she certainly does grapple with the weight of her actions.

You end up fighting against Claude, Dimitri, and Rhea, which are the other three major characters in the story, whereas in the other routes, you mostly concentrate your fighting on just the Empire and their objectively evil allies. So this makes it feel a bit more like a ‘villain’ route. So why do I say that Crimson Flower feels like a true route, then?
 
-Edelgard toppled the social order, which was toxic and eugenicist. The world can begin to change for the better now that these immortal, godlike beings are permanently out of the picture. None of the other routes truly address the inconvenient problem of godlike creatures being in charge of large institutions.
 
-Byleth, who up until Chapter 12 of CF was considered a tool/vessel for Rhea’s mommy, is allowed to make their own decisions and their endings reflect that. On all of the other routes, Byleth’s endings always end with them either as the archbishop (AM) or the immortal ruler of Fodlan (VW/SS). In CF, Byleth can instead do whatever they want – help Edelgard’s new dawn, fight the slitherers, or just open a bakery in the Alliance with Lysithea. The freedom of choice. The freedom to do whatever they like with their life, which is a luxury they have never had before.
 
-The ending cutscene feels so… epic! Dramatic! “When humanity stands strong, and people reach out for each other… there’s no need for gods.” The transformation back into ‘human’ Byleth is really sweet too – I feel like it is Sothis letting go and realizing that humanity needs to stand on its own.

I remember after playing the other routes I felt dissatisfied because I felt like the status quo, aka immortal dragon people having reins on the world, was preserved. I don’t really think that rule via godlike beings who are distant from the people they rule is a good thing at all. I know that Byleth seems like they might be better than Rhea, but I am skeptical that having someone rule for an indefinite length of time is a good thing, and the structure of nobility and the institutions were preserved as well. (The game isn’t clear on exactly what Byleth does in the far future, so I will just leave that up to interpretations. The point is that an all-powerful theocratic institution is allowed to exist in perpetuity.)

Am I trying to argue that Crimson Flower is the ‘canon’ route? No, I think the concept of a ‘canon’ route in a multi-path story without an obvious go-to answer to that question is a fruitless and silly endeavour. But do I think it feels like a route where you side with a morally ambiguous character and yet you feel like the world is at a more satisfying juncture as a result of that? Yes.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2020, 11:34:27 PM »
One thing that I've been thinking about with the other routes and Byleth remaining in charge as Immortal Demi-God Pope, is how much it plays into a Standard Fire Emblem plot.  Because a recurring element in Fire Emblem is you have these gods among mortals, but it's just not sustainable.  It's most directly referenced in Gaiden/Echoes, but gods living among men will eventually start to crack under the weight of immortality.  Gods just aren't supposed to live like that, and over time madness is inevitable.  While 3H frames it as an expression of trauma, elements of this are probably meant to be at play with Rhea as well.  And thus, in time, so too with Byleth... unless of course they instead have a mortal life.
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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2020, 02:17:55 AM »
Huh, what a coincidence, I was trying to mentally compose something similar in overall defense of CF, although I had been focusing it on somewhat different points and would've been part of what is ultimately "imperfect" about how each of the three* routes resolve, most of it doesn't really have much to do with what was brought up so let's talk about opera for a bit (except kind of not) instead since I'm too lazy to make my own ramble topic (I'd probably never get around to updating it anyways).

One of the things that stands out about the game's three countries and houses is that they all have a certain "character" about them in a way other FE games don't.  The Blue Lions suffering from Fearghus Man chivalric death cult syndrome and the Golden Deer being something of a decentralized mess doing its own thing are obvious, but the Black Eagles eluded me for a bit, but then I saw a comment about how Hubert isn't so much of a villain as he is someone playing a role and thought about it for a bit and went 'oh, of course.'  Let's look at the other students first:

Ferdinand - Openly expresses his belief in everyone having their own role to play in more or less those exact words, works tirelessly to perform not only the role he initially expects to fufill but any other that he might be called upon to.
Dorothea - Is literally an opera singer.
Caspar - An extra, stands to inherit nothing (which is to say has not been cast into a role) unless something bad happens.
Bernadetta - Has massive stage fright due to an extremely abusive guillotine-bait father, would probably do costume/set design rather than act anyways.
Petra - Is a political prisoner, effectively has to act.
Linhardt - uh yeah okay I'm a bit lost about how he works into this, symbolism ruined, analogy cancelled.

This sort of extends a bit to Hanneman (and Manuela but that part is also obvious) as well, the man's over 50 and while he left the nobility behind he's been a noble for so long that he doesn't know to engage with others except as one.  Furthermore despite his passions for studying Crests, he holds a hidden resentment for the society that was built on them.  But back to Edie and Hubie.

Hubert is a lot like Ferdinand in some ways, chiefly in that they both act out of a sense of strong sense of duty, the friction between the two comes from the fact that Hubert emphasizes loyalty while Ferdinand emphasizes responsibility, but ultimately they both see themselves as having chosen their own part to play in this figurative opera** and agree to give each other enough space to perform in their own way.

Edelgard however is closer to Petra if anything.  It's never made precisely clear how willing her alliance of convenience with the Dubstep Molemen is, but her C+ support with Byleth and what we're told about the Insurrection of the Seven makes it utterly clear that no one had ever intended her to be anything but a puppet emperor (and as for the Church of Seiros itself, well, that's for another topic), but while Petra stoically endures her position, Edelgard's response is to flip the script and take control of the production; if the world would cast her as the devil, then the devil will be the hero.  However, while we can discuss the PCs and their actions in terms of opera and other forms of performance arts, the world is not a stage and at the end of the day Edelgard is not as stoic as she forces herself to be.  The bit about dispensing with remorse and what not isn't an admission of callousness, it's wanting the curtain to come down already so she can stop forcing herself to act out the part she was forced into to begin with, it's about wanting the bloody farce that the whole of Fodlan was forced to take part in by relics stewing in their own resentment who should've been booed off the stage a millenium ago to just end already so people can see a different show, preferably something happier and less gory.

But really it's about roles, being forced to play them, working to fill them, and making them your own.  And that's why Edelgard dresses like the devil***.

*I am happily going to continue to pretend SS doesn't exist
**PS: Ferdibert is canon
***inb4 someone yells at me and says I'm wrong about everything

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2020, 05:10:11 AM »
Fantastic post. I think Linhardt places the role of rejecting the farce of participating in the opera and rejects the operatic society he was born into.

Quote
Edelgard however is closer to Petra if anything.  It's never made precisely clear how willing her alliance of convenience with the Dubstep Molemen is, but her C+ support with Byleth and what we're told about the Insurrection of the Seven makes it utterly clear that no one had ever intended her to be anything but a puppet emperor (and as for the Church of Seiros itself, well, that's for another topic), but while Petra stoically endures her position, Edelgard's response is to flip the script and take control of the production; if the world would cast her as the devil, then the devil will be the hero.  However, while we can discuss the PCs and their actions in terms of opera and other forms of performance arts, the world is not a stage and at the end of the day Edelgard is not as stoic as she forces herself to be.  The bit about dispensing with remorse and what not isn't an admission of callousness, it's wanting the curtain to come down already so she can stop forcing herself to act out the part she was forced into to begin with, it's about wanting the bloody farce that the whole of Fodlan was forced to take part in by relics stewing in their own resentment who should've been booed off the stage a millenium ago to just end already so people can see a different show, preferably something happier and less gory.

Really great point. She doesn't want to be callous but callous is the way that she has to perform in order to achieve her goal. "If the world would cast her as a devil, then the devil will be the hero." OMG THIS IS SUCH A GOOD LINE RANDOM. thank you for this post, so thought-provoking!

Ferdibert is definitely canon, which is why I have... fallen into Edelbert hell.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I just finished a 27,000 word fanfic about hegemon and hubert getting married i am so extra  :P :P :P
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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2020, 06:50:34 PM »
At the risk of hijacking things a bit more and talking about stuff someone somewhere else probably mentioned without me being aware of it...

So let's talk about the elephant in the room: A thesis on Three Housesology

At its heart, Three Houses is about trauma, deceit, and the arc of history, its story told within the framework of a Fire Emblem game with what that tends to imply, and the game walks into some pretty dark territory.  And while the game mostly leaves interpretation up to the player, the one thing it tells you throughout is that the exercise of power always comes at the expense of moral purity.  Trauma isn't really my wheelhouse and talking about deceit would get way too rambly and I'd probably end up talking about telephone poles or something so let's focus on history a bit more.

Verdant Wind tells us that the present state of the continent of Fodlan is, in essence, founded on two specific acts of what we can understand to be genocide; the murder of Sothis and subsequent slaughter of the Nabatean people at the hands of Nemesis and the Agarthan civilization, and the near-annihilation of said civilization in retribution.  Seiros then decides that, as one of the few Nabateans remaining and thus in her eyes one of the few remaining sources of legitimate rule, she needs to fill the resulting power vacuum.  Of course, Seiros also has, at the risk of being extremely flippant, massive mother issues and believes that Sothis is the only one who actually deserves to rule so this is, in essence, mostly to make sure that no one else can since her attitude towards humans is apathetic at best.  A dragon hoard is a pretty apt metaphor here.

The next question would then be how has Seiros maintained power, and again Verdant Wind provides a partial answer; through the legitimization of Nemesis's followers and their descendents.  However there's a bit more to it than that.  To actually bother to acknowledge that route's existence for a moment, Silver Snow tells us that Seiros has been making a habit of donating blood as a means of granting her (presumeably) most loyal followers her Crest and thus directly tying them specifically to her.  One of the things Three Houses does is invite the player to make comparisons and draw paralells, and some of the ones we can most easily make are the ones the Church of Seiros has to the Roman Catholic Church.  Seiros may have never called herself a pope, but the pope is "merely" just the Bishop of Rome, which just "merely" happens to be where Peter ministered, and Peter "merely" just so happened to be the guy Jesus appointed as his successor.  And the cardinals are supposed to be the ones who select the Bishop of Rome.  And in the case of the Church of Seiros, not only is no one meant to know who the cardinals are, but all the cardinals are tied to her via her blood.  Uh huh.*

Going further, House Hresvelg also bears the Crest of Seiros, and the symbol of the Adrestian Empire displays it openly.  In fact we're even told the empire derives its name from an oracle and it's safe to assume that said oracle was also one of said followers Seiros had been using over the centuries.  And if we operate under the assumption that cardinals are puppets put in place to make Seiros's rule as immortal pope appear to be a legitimate sucession of archbishops, then we can also reasonably assume that the Adrestian Empire was always intended to be a puppet state to make it appear as though Seiros isn't the one actually in power.  On that subject, let's look at the Black Eagles a bit more; apart from Edelgard, the only ones with Crests are Ferdinand, Bernadetta, and Linhardt, and theirs are all tied to the surviving Nabateans, not Nemesis and his followers, and the three of them are all members of families that hold important ministeries and would be expected to inherit them.

Something along the way must have changed, however, and it's never made clear as to what.  I don't think it's ever mentioned why Loog rebelled, but if we're to follow this train of logic then Seiros's backing Fearghus's independence on condition of having free reign to preach there implies that the Empire was getting too big for its britches and that Seiros wanted to exercise a more direct form of control over the families that were entrusted with relics.  It's less clear how splitting off the Leicester Alliance from the Kingdom of Fearghus fits, but given the geography and the decentralized nature of the Alliance Seiros probably assumed that it was safe enough to just leave them be, since they'd ultimately weaken themselves enough to be forced to remain dependent on her.  This understanding, then, leads us to interpret Edelgard's speech when she declares war on the Church not as evidence of specific irredentist intent (although it also is not evidence of lack of such intent, to be clear) but as a statement that the Church is a political entity that holds the whole of Fodlan as its territory masquerading as a religious entity that merely holds land that has been specifically set aside for them and therefore this is not a war of imperial conquest but rather an internal power struggle, and that the only way to remove Seiros from power is ensure that she controls nothing.

To backtrack a bit, legitimacy of the houses that descend from the 10 Elites can be understood as coming from the Church's ability to monitor the relics crafted from the slaughtered Nabateans.  You could probably read some sinister intent into it but for the record I don't think I buy it, we've seen what crest stones do to people who don't have a crest and I think Seiros ultimately wants the crests to be bred out so humans can't use them against her and her remaining kin, permitting use of the relics in the meanwhile is a necessary evil in her eyes, if people are using them in her name then they're not using them against her.  Marianne's paralogue provides our basis for understanding here; since Maurice turned into a demonic beast and fucked off with Blutgang, his stolen crest could never be properly legitimized and thus considered cursed, and can be interpreted as a symbol of a part of Fodlan's original sin that was never redeemed by the acts of its savior, which in turn gives us insight into the root cause of Marianne's anxieties.  That Marianne states on the paralogue's closing that she no longer feels cursed after recovering Blutgang, and that the crest scholar who had harrassed her on its opening apologizes for his actions once he sees it indicates that, on some level, society (or at least the educated part of it) is aware of this fact even if it is never openly stated, and shows how Seiros's desire for control can pervert legitimate faith into a desire for self-harm.

I've stated my belief earlier that the remnants of the Agarthan civilization hereby referred to as the Dubstep Molemen can only be taken collectively as a narrative device, namely a means to communicate the paradox of tolerance.  No society, no matter how open, is obligated to accept calls for its own destruction, and if such calls cannot be silenced by peaceful and rational argument and those calls become violent action, then suppression in order to preserve society becomes a morally justifiable act within limits.  And as none can find their actions acceptable, their destruction occurs on all routes.  However we can also understand the Dubstep Molemen as a metaphor for ideals degenerating and leading people into various strains of authoritarianism, and as such their dubious alliance with Edelgard serves as a signpost to indicate her internal struggle between her need for control and her recognition of the dangers of excercising power as much as anything else, and the implication is that in the abscence of anyone with whom she can comfortably entrust with power, the former will inevitably win out.  This too stands in comparison to Seiros, on Crimson Flower she goes utterly insane and she and and the Kingdom of Fearghus essentially become the very thing that she hated, whereas on Azure Moon and Verdant Wind she steps down willingly after having been both forced to realize her own limits and acknowledging that there can, in fact, be legitimacy apart from her own person.  Meanwhile with Byleth's assistance and guidance, Edelgard is ultimately able to build something that can survive past her on Crimson Flower, but on Azure Moon in particular, we see how far she's willing to go to get her own point across.

Ciato stated that the game's fundamental question is "when is revolution justified," but considering that the game all but conceeds that Edelgard's grievances against the Church of Seiros are legitimate I ultimately disagree and believe the fundamental question is "at what point does a revolution break down and become unjust"; the teachings of the Church of Seiros and the system of nobility it puts in place are ultimately harmful and in the long term will result in failed state and then you get war of all against all which please no.  And I believe that Azure Moon puts forth that revolution becomes unjust when it turns against the people, that a ruler's ultimate duty is to the people and he is bound to honor their will but only delegitimizes himself when he turns his sword on the people in anger or otherwise abuses them, and as such rebellion against one who has not done so is considered to be against the consent of the governed.  I believe that Verdant Wind suggests that revolution becomes unjust when it blinds itself to the complete picture and shuts out other voices, and refuses assistance from those who might otherwise be sympathetic.  And I believe that Crimson Flower suggests that revolution becomes unjust when it ignores what it can actually accomplish in the pursuit of easy success and fails to grapple with the issues that would destroy it from within.  Meanwhile Silver Snow is stupid and can be ignored.

From this understanding, we can see a clear rift between Claude and Edelgard.  Edelgard can, essentially, be seen as putting both the Nabateans and the Agarthans on trial for crimes against humanity, which can be seen as unfairly holding the other Nabateans for Seiros's own crimes, which could be fairly seen as too xenophobic for Claude's own taste, and while it's a fair point that Claude never rules out the use of force if the situation may one day call for it** deceit and getting people to believe that his ideas are theirs is far more his speed.  And since Dimitri has vision problems and needs the problem pointed out to him before he can even kind of understand through his own himboness, well you can see how this all was sort of inevitable.

*Let's not even get to the implications with Cyril here thanks
**yes we get it claude's a filthy neoliberal centrist globalist secret muslim who wants to wyvernbomb fodlan into submission whatever localization bitching I DON'T CARE sorry Fudo for being harsh about this and flying off the handle but I'm a little sensitive to anything resembling a dogwhistle to begin with, let alone in the year of Our Fucking Sadist Lord Twenty Thousand And Fucking Twenty and this is not a point that actually needs to be made as often as it has been so I need to rip the bandage off

« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 07:45:00 AM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2020, 06:02:10 AM »
Good stuff.

I think the closest thing I have to a disagreement is a point in the last paragraph: the Nabateans barely exist in the present day of 3H (it's entirely possible their numbers are in the single digits?), and the few we know of are either living in the wilderness and nobody seems to really know/care about them, or they're the active and closest supporters of Rhea's regime. So I don't really feel like Edelgard is putting them on trial, and I don't feel like Claude thinks so either as it's not something he brings up in their conversations (though you could argue that Linhardt worries she might be, certainly, based on his paralogue with Leonie). On the subject of Claude, I think there's a lot of potential to tie the racially-motivated past conflicts between Agarthans and Nabateans to Claude's present-day ideology and goals and I really wish they'd done it.

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Random Consonant

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2020, 06:19:09 AM »
Yeah it's pretty much Seteth and Flayn, there's not really any real indication past that, Indech just interacts out of boredom, Macuil wants nothing to do with humans, and who the hell knows about the others, and it's more in reference to Edelgard's lines to them about "lacking humanity" than anything else and even that just feels like a sign that she may be going too far by judging them as guilty by association with both the Church of Seiros and the crests themselves whereas Claude is willing to coexist with them as it's Seiros's toxic influence that he finds oppressive, and especially as we know Edelgard to be working off of an incomplete picture provided to her at least in part by people who certainly don't have her best interests at heart.  Mostly I think the game muddies things a bit in a way in this context in I don't like by framing itself within the trappings of a FE game but ultimately yours is a fair point.

I agree that Claude would across as stronger if they went in harder on the history angle with his route since it ties in with his overall approach but ultimately I'm not sure that's the story they actually wanted to tell.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 04:41:04 PM by Random Consonant »

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2020, 10:16:14 PM »
Nice essay! I think you are right in that I was asking the wrong question to players with reading comprehension, but there are many people who believe that Rhea is benevolent! Interesting thoughts re: VW/AM's themes. I think I just fundamentally disagree with Azure Moon's theme because I think that the function of a ruler is to make hard decisions. VW ultimately trainwrecks at the end so I'm not really 100% what its message is ultimately, since the end is just punching a zombie in the face, which I'm not even sure what the thematic point is.  ;D ;D

I also disagree with the idea that Edelgard puts the Nabateans on trial -- she doesn't want them to rule the continent, which i think is a pretty reasonable thing to say considering that they've done a pretty shitty job of it for the past thousand years. I think she'd be perfectly happy to let them live their lives out, as she does with Seteth, Flayn, Indech, and Macuil, and if Rhea just wanted to fuck off, I think she would be amendable to that.

She even says it in one of her questions.

"I know this is highly unlikely, but on the off chance that Rhea surrenders and agrees to my terms, what should I do? I would appreciate your thoughts on the matter..."

"Strip her of her power so she can't interfere in politics." is the liked answer.

I don't think it is xenophobic to want a extremely small, powerful minority to get the fuck out and stop ruling.
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Random Consonant

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2020, 12:25:01 AM »
Quote
Interesting thoughts re: VW/AM's themes. I think I just fundamentally disagree with Azure Moon's theme because I think that the function of a ruler is to make hard decisions. VW ultimately trainwrecks at the end so I'm not really 100% what its message is ultimately, since the end is just punching a zombie in the face, which I'm not even sure what the thematic point is.

Well, the main sticking points are the Enbarr sequence in AM and when Claude reacts to Hubert's letter in VW and to a lesser extent his actions during the buildup to the battle at Fort Merceus.  The VW stuff probably requires its own essay on Claude because almost everything he does can be interpreted two different ways that are probably correct because he's a silly centrist but in Dimitri's defense it's definitely possible to get carried away with sweeping aside *everything* too fast over the objections of the masses (see: that whole Cult of Reason debacle, and while it never actually goes that far, this is less about what we, the audience knows to be true as much as it is about the skepticism that revolutions ultimately have to overcome).  And to be clear CF dodges both these pitfalls due to Edelgard's willingness to pace herself with regards to her reforms and accepting Byleth's outreach so I think those points can get a bit lost since they're bundled in with their own baggage on their respective routes.

Fair point on the question, I didn't get that one on my first CF playthrough and at the rate my second is going it'll probably be a while before I get to that point.  Although I would point in fairness out that considering she was perfectly content to leave Duke Aegir in prison despite his role in the Insurrection of the Seven and the deaths of her siblings (or at the very least she definitely assigns some blame to him for the latter in her C+ support with Byleth) as opposed to breaking out the guillotine "put on trial" doesn't really mean "execute" in this context, especially since she isn't Hubert.  I do agree that she sees enough daylight between them and the Agarthans that my prior word choice was perhaps a bit too loaded and probably either should've included in absentia or spent some more time coming up with a better description, though.

Quote
I don't think it is xenophobic to want a extremely small, powerful minority to get the fuck out and stop ruling.

Neither do I but I do think Claude does end up viewing them with more sympathy at the end of VW than he otherwise might have at the beginning despite the fact that Rhea's motives fall well short of justifying her actions or her insistence on digging herself deeper, and for what little it's worth Seteth and Flayn clearly do fear rejection.  But again this goes into words about VW's issues as a route as well as those two being underutilized as characters which again likely requires its own essay.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 02:02:26 AM by Random Consonant »

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Three Houses and Politics
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2021, 12:20:11 AM »
Guess who is back! Luther's back!

I am going to do some support analysis by character.

I developed a 5-point scale to rate the supports based on how much I enjoyed them / their impact on me. 1s will be rare; they will be supports that annoyed or offended me in some major way and had no redeeming features to make up for that.

Quote
Luther's support rating scale

5 – Excellent support, delves into important things about both characters, all three parts are interesting, usually ends in a satisfying way.

4. – Great support with significance to one or both characters, consistent positive trajectory throughout the support chain. Good comedy supports will go here as well.

3. Decent support with some character work or interesting backstory for one or both parties, but not quite as exciting as 4 or 5. Decent comedy supports go here.

2. A bog standard support. I probably forgot it and had to look it up.

1. This world is imperfect…

I will also pontificate on what supports I wish existed from the character.

I decided to start this off with Hubert, my boy! because I’m a simp, I love him, and I remember his supports really, really well.

HUBERT VON VESTRA SUPPORT RATINGS / ANALYSIS

Hubert/Byleth

Rating: 4.

It explores the relationship between Hubert, Edelgard, and Byleth quite convincingly and the support chain has a pretty logical trajectory from distrust in the C/B (which is understand in Hubert’s position as Edelgard’s bodyguard) to the A support which he shows Byleth a spirit of both solemn respect and cooperation. The B support is a bit weird at first glance but makes a lot more sense once you realize that the reason why Hubert is probing Byleth about having ‘a second self’ is because of Arundel, who is directly invoked in the support. He is of course used to because he has to keep a careful eye out for Those Who Slither in the Dark and their infiltration of Adrestian society. Once you understand the forces that Hubert is combatting, you understand why he is so paranoia about Edelgard’s acquaintance with someone with a ‘second self’. And the S-support just cute; typical under-confidence in his romantic abilities that is characteristic of Hubert.

Best line: “Nice place, isn’t it, Professor? Standing here, you can almost feel the goddess’s absence. Discounting what dwells within you, of course.”

Hubert/Edelgard

Rating: 5.

The C support is really the first time that you get insight into the scale of the things that they are planning. I like how it explores Edelgard’s grief with bringing her servant along with her on her crazy path, but that he resents her babying and wants her to stop worrying about him. She wants him to be happy and open about his feelings, and he just wants to stay her secretive servant. The exploration of Hubert’s boyhood feelings which have shaped his worldview and his loyalty in the B support is good, but the A support is fantastic. She tries to pull rank on him, he calls her out for her shit by “offering his neck to the executioner”, and he ends up telling her his secrets after she makes an impassioned plea. Maybe. Love how much it tells you about both characters individually and about their relationship, as well as the evolution of trust from them as they grow up.

Best line: “You speak often of painting the path I walk, yet you do so in secret. I am the one you serve, but you refuse to let me in. I trust you, Hubert, and that is precisely why I want to know everything, your secret hopes and burdens. All of it. If I’m truly the center of your world, then I wish you would trust me as well as I trust you.”

Hubert/Ferdinand (4 part)

Rating: 5.

This support has the absolute perfect enemies-to-lovers arc, from the C support where they both unsuccessfully try to one up each other, to the A+ where they flirt with each other relentlessly. The interesting thing about the early part of the support chain is that they clearly both aim toward the same goal of serving their country and trying to be the best they can be for the Empire / the Emperor, but they go about it in ways in which the other finds very alien. The A is a very nice reconciliation between the two, and I love the line “Please do not compliment me again though. I find it quite unsettling. It is like hearing a snake sing an aria. At least put it in a letter next time,” which has spawned many many fanfics. Alone, this would have been a satisfying end to the support chain, but the A+ support just exists to elevate this support to the likely the single gayest support in the series.

Best line: “The thought of receiving a gift from you, unbidden and unreciprocated, fills me with revulsion. Therefore…accept this tea. As a gift. From me.”

Hubert/Caspar (2 part)

Rating: Low 4.

It’s good. I like the contrast between Hubert’s acidic and logical behavior and Caspar’s infectious work ethic and endless optimism. They are a fun ‘odd couple’ and I think it’s a good example of Hubert being a little too overbearing and actually being called out for it, which I really appreciate.

Best line: “YEEEAAAH! I’M BAAACK! IF YOU WANT ME TO SHOUT, THEN I’M GONNA SHOUT! I’M NOT EVEN GONNA THINK ABOUT IT! I KNEW YOU’D COME AROUND!”

Hubert/Linhardt (2 part)

Rating: 3.

This one gives some insight into each of their characters and what makes them tick, but it’s not too exciting to me relatively. Again, a bit of an odd couple routine, but I don’t think it’s as effective as the Caspar one.

Best line: “I don’t know how to feel, to be honest. So for now, let’s pretend I thanked you.”

Hubert/Dorothea

Rating: 5.

This support is fascinating because I think Dorothea and Hubert fundamentally are on different wavelengths. Hubert is fully devoted to Edelgard and finds Dorothea’s implications that he is just doing it out of misguided love for her to be insulting. Dorothea finds him baffling; how could someone be devoted to another so selflessly? The A support is wonderful; it explores each other’s feelings and we see Hubert thrown off kilter by Dorothea’s surprise marriage idea. I think they are an interesting match because Dorothea would not have to doubt if he was just marrying her because she is beautiful (as he basically doesn’t seem to care, as he comments on her competence and ‘battle prowess’ as criteria for marriage) and Hubert would get help in his quest to help Edelgard. It’s very utilitarian but I think it works pretty well.

Best line: “Seems it’s my turn to not understand. Did you just propose marriage as a way to get to know me? How exactly would such an arrangement benefit me?”

Hubert/Bernadetta (4 part)

Rating: 3.

I find this one a little eh. The C is mostly a weird elaborate joke and the C+ is not great. Probably my favorite part is when Hubert wears the flower pin from Bernie; it’s very touching and shows that he’s grown as a character and is willing to be more compromising.

Best line: “Are you telling me to die?”

Hubert/Petra

Rating: Lowish 4.

This is probably the worst look for Hubert from the perspective of ‘wow, Hubert, you are acting like a giant douchebag for no real reason’. I think this is a case where he lets his affection for Edelgard blind him to Petra’s positive traits, and it does come off as a bit condescending. I do love how Petra asserts dominance and largely beats him in the debate though, and the final line of the support (below) is a great display of her power. It’s a good one.

Best line: “Be marking my words, Hubert. One day, between the two of us, you will be choosing me.”

Hubert/Shamir

Rating:

Lowish 4. I love how Shamir calls him out for acting like a weirdo and is just generally dominating him. I think he at times comes off as a little insufferable in his death threats and other such antisocial behavior, and the fact that Shamir just cuts it off at the root… perfect. The A support is legitimately pretty sweet.

Best line: “You’re unstable, Hubert. Be careful who you threaten. I don’t take kindly to those who get in the way of my contracts.”

Hubert/Hanneman (2 part)

Rating: 4.

A good delve into Hubert’s backstory and the events surrounding the Insurrection. This support does not offer any hard proof but it does give strong circumstantial evidence that elder Vestra sold out the Hresvelg family to save Hubert’s life, likely blackmailed. Hubert shuts down Hanneman in this support, likely due to not wanting to know the whole truth. I think you see glimmers of Hanneman’s humanity and empathy in this support, when he is frequently reduced to a mere joke character.

Best line: “You have chosen your own path, Hubert. Continue protecting what you wish to protect, and I shall support you from the bottom of my heart.”

Three Hubert supports I wished existed:

Lysithea. I think that, between both being prickly assholes and both hating the slitherers with every fiber of their being, would have a lot to talk about. Might seal this support til Chapter 12, like the Shamir one.
Annette. Fucked Up Dad Club – why don’t you just, you know, kill him? B and A post-TS I think.
Jeritza. Just a really useful support to fill in some backstory details and I think they would have a weird macabre vibe with each other.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 11:20:13 PM by Luther Lansfeld »
When humanity stands strong and people reach out for each other...
There’s no need for gods.

http://backloggery.com/ciato

Profile pic by (@bunneshi) on twitter!