Author Topic: Futurerama style tournament round 2- because we all deserve Kain vs Thief  (Read 1453 times)

superaielman

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Godlike:

Melfice (G2) vs Reicher Wallach (MK2)
Rudo Marco (Brig) vs Yuna (FFX)

Heavy:


Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Red (SaGa)
Lassic (PS4) vs Hugo (S3)


Middle:

Crono (CT) vs Hendrik (DQ11)
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Guy (Lufia 2)

Light:

Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Setzer Gabianni (FF6)
Thief(male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

superaielman

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Godlike:

Melfice (G2) vs Reicher Wallach (MK2)- Good fight, but the nature of Reicher's spread out damage should overcome the evade. Melfice could win but on average I think Reicher takes this.
Rudo Marco (Brig) vs Yuna (FFX)- Rudo has to go first and hit. If he does that Yuna is toast; she is not even remotely close to tanking a Rudo turn. Yuna getting a turn means the usual. Rudo has good enough accuracy that Clean Military Rule is more likely than not to hit turn one which means this is a speed check. I do want to see arguments on this though; I could be underselling Yuna's evade. Abstain for now. E: yeah I think I see Rudo going first. Yuna has good evade but not good enough to force a turn one dodge.


Heavy:


Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Red (SaGa)- Probably. I don't think Re Al Phoenix is a OHKO and the draining is a problem, even for Alkaiser.
Lassic (PS4) vs Hugo (S3)- Unsure. This is really close thanks to the fire weakness. Hugo needing four turns to kill would be a problem here as he only has four shots of healing himself, but Lassic is so damn slow. E: right, fire magic was slow for Hugo. I'm also pretty sure he needs four turns even with the fire weakness to win here so Hugo is doomed.


Middle:

Crono (CT) vs Hendrik (DQ11)- I do want to vote for Crono due to Hendrik's bad speed and healing, but there's a pretty damn good chance he runs out of MP before blitzing down. Abstain, want to see arguments on this.
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Guy (Lufia 2)- Best case is Guy going first and heal locking, but even then Elim should be enough. Or Doran+healing next round. Guy does not like status.

Light:

Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Setzer Gabianni (FF6)- Surely. Right???
Thief(male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4)- Pathetic. Thief is not outslugging Kain with it's 'damage', that is asking to get owned by Blood Spear strats. While Blood Spear deserves no respect, Thief offense somehow merits even less respect. So we're onto alternate strategies: Death Sentence off the Assassin Dagger!  While I am inclined to generally punt weapon status strats, losing to the Assassin Dagger/DS from FFT means you really suck and pretty much deserve it. So I allow the Assassin Dagger. While DS is garbage, so is Kain offense; this is going to easily outrace the blood spear. So the question is can DS proc before Kain outslugs here with a normal weapon. I think it does? Just... god. DS is so punishing to Kain in game; it goes down while Kain's charging Jump. Thief wins easily if it hits by turn 3; still might win if hits after that. Thief's going first and does have a little class evasion to help as well. So sure, let's go with this.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 03:24:09 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Godlike:

Melfice (G2) vs Reicher Wallach (MK2) - Reicher's timed spheres and concrete durability are way too much for Melfice to handle. I'm not even sure how much credit I give to his evasion against Reicher given how limited it is in-game.
Rudo Marco (Brig) vs Yuna (FFX) - 120% accuracy on Clean Military Rule... I don't think it's quite enough to make Yuna evasion turn 2 unless I go by straight subtraction here? But I don't think it matters, I believe Yuna's faster than Rudo going by threat range even to me and that's game.

Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Red (SaGa) - This is actually kind of ugly because Red's best shot here is trying to ID Rabbid Luigi via DeadEnd on turns where he can't use Super Barrier, which is... jesus, something like turn six? Seven? Even with Red's evade, this feels too much, especially when almost half of Rabbid Luigi's admittedly junky offense isn't even evadable. Landing a two-rounding on a double is mostly out of the cards as well, since he nearly THIRDS Red's damage as a rule of thumb.
Lassic (PS4) vs Hugo (S3) - Yeah, Hugo doesn't have the resource depth to deal with this. Four charges of Healing Wind ain't cutting it and Hugo's True Fire Rune spellcasting, at least for the big spells, is almost as slow as Lassic at best (IIRC, the L4 is actually SLOWER than he is and the L3 isn't much better. And Lassic has over 3.5x PC HP), so it gets very risky.

Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Guy (Lufia 2) - This is a lol if I have ever seen one. Hahn has more ways to win this fight than he can shake his stick at and Guy can do approximately zilch against it all.

Ophilia Clement (OT) vs Setzer Gabianni (FF6) - EDIT: Trump is turn five? Yeah, this changes things considerably, Ophilia just wins in this case. And Fixed Dice continues not to really be an option.
Thief (male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4) - Jesus, Thief is actually faster and outdamages Kain... while having just about the same durability. If Kain runs Blood Spear, then he very likely gets outpaced by fucking DEATH SENTENCE (yeah, Blood Spear damage is just really sad, that accuracy just... jesus).
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 02:03:17 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Tide

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Godlike:
Melfice (G2) vs Reicher Wallach (MK2) - Reicher is just way more damaging and way way more durable. Even if you give Melfice evade credit, he has real issues actually trying to kill Reicher. As Snow noted, G2 evade is pretty meh - only covers basic physicals which 99% of the time aren't what's being used or what's even threatening in-game. If you don't respect the evade, Reicher straight up wipes him.


Light:
Thief(male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4) - Y'know, if we're hyping up Assassin Dagger, we might as well hype up STEAL WEAPON for this too. It gets rid of Kain's Blood Spear and neuters his damage since he'll be unarmed. Probably has a higher proc rate too since weapon procs in FFT were like 19.2% or something. Look at all these ways for Thief to win. Shame on you, Super 'I create awful match ups in my spare time' aielman.
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

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Pyro

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Godlike:
Melfice (G2) vs Reicher Wallach (MK2)
Rudo Marco (Brig) vs Yuna (FFX)

Heavy:
Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Red (SaGa)
Lassic (PS4) vs Hugo (S3)


Middle:

Crono (CT) vs Hendrik (DQ11): Buff/heal.
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Guy (Lufia 2)

Light:
Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Setzer Gabianni (FF6)
Thief(male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4)

Random Consonant

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Godlike:

Melfice (G2) vs Reicher Wallach (MK2) - Obvious

Heavy:

Lassic (PS4) vs Hugo (S3) - Lassic too way too durable.


Middle:

Crono (CT) vs Hendrik (DQ11) - Don't think I see any particular reason why Hendrik can't outlast here.
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Guy (Lufia 2) - Yep.

Light:

Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Setzer Gabianni (FF6) - e: Trump Card being 20% instead of 25% isn't good enough, no.
Thief(male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4) - I think I saw this match in a weird nightmare, once.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 03:36:08 PM by Random Consonant »

Dhyerwolf

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Godlike:
Melfice (G2) vs Reicher Wallach (MK2)
Rudo Marco (Brig) vs Yuna (FFX)- Yuna's scaled evade is 49.6% and I use Brig 2 turn order as turn 1 speed so Rudo is notably faster than her turn 1.

Heavy:
Lassic (PS4) vs Hugo (S3)

Middle:
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Guy (Lufia 2)

Light:
Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Setzer Gabianni (FF6)- So, Setzer's ID takes too long for me, but isn't it a bit of problem under normal views? 20% ID is turn 5 by 67% threshold and that means Ophilia gets 4 turns. She equips for magic, meaning she does like 545 damage at base and having 4 turns means that she gets 7x mult overall, or 3815 damage, which I would imagine most people see killing.
Thief(male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4)- Sure, Steal Weapon
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Godlike:

Melfice (G2) vs Reicher Wallach (MK2): I generally take Melfice's evade as ~70% effective, which might give him a slight durability edge after factoring that in, but Reicher just absolutely piles on offence so badly in a long fight.
Rudo Marco (Brig) vs Yuna (FFX): Rudo is 1 point above average, really don't think that's good enough to beat Yuna to the punch.

Heavy:


Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Red (SaGa): Think I agree with Jo'ou on this one.
Lassic (PS4) vs Hugo (S3):


Middle:

Crono (CT) vs Hendrik (DQ11): uhhhh I'll get back to you.
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Guy (Lufia 2): Pretty sure Vol checked one of the magical stats, which ices this.

Light:

Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Setzer Gabianni (FF6): Dhyer's argument makes sense to me.
Thief(male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4): Wow.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

074

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Heavy:

Lassic (PS4) vs Hugo (S3) - Hellfire I can see as killing in...three hits (or two and a physical string.  Unfortunately for Hugo, Another Gate is magical and hits high 2HKO.  At best, it heal locks.  At worst, he tries to brute force the matter and gets outslugged. [EDIT] this is more one-sided than I thought.  I forgot that Hugo only gets one shot of Hellfire.

Middle:

Crono (CT) vs Hendrik (DQ11) - Will say that Crono does not like that I hold Hendrik to my TB speed interps, which means his low speed is offset by the fact that as it is TB, it effectively only impacts the first turn.  Breaking this down:

Luminaire (20 MP) hits for ~34% of Hendrik's health from raw, so a 3HKO by the barest of margins.  As this is Lightning damage, though, Drustan's Shield and Metal King Armor will cut this down to, assuming scaled to 20% resistance, 23.3%, so Crono is ultimately high 5HKOing with magic as long as Hendrik's running the shield.  Crono's other damage option for this, Confuse (12 MP), hits for either 22.6% (off of the Swallow) or 27.9% (off of the Rainbow, but sacrificing most of his speed advantage for something that'll ultimately be at a disadvantage), not factoring for deflection.  These are his main options.  If he's below 12 MP, he can go for Spincut (4 MP, ~12.6% damage on Swallow), but that is an emergency option.

Worth noting that this is already a fairly generous interp of Crono's Swallow-based offense for demonstration purposes; it is reasonable to assume that with DQ's subtractive defense, it would be more negatively impacted.

Hendrik can shore up his defenses even more, however; Buff can reduce Confuse (particularly off the Swallow) to negligible damage for the duration, and one shot of Magic Barrier will halve Luminaire's damage.  A second will quarter it.  Blockenspiel can halve all damage until Hendrik's next turn, and Healmore cures roughly 29.4%.  Lastly, he has a 20% block rate, and I do recall DQXI blocking working on more skills than CT evasion does, so between the number of attacks flying around and this detail, I am willing to lean into this as a clutch factor.

So essentially, Hendrik has two win conditions; either Crono hits 11 or less MP (whereupon he does scratch damage) or he can get three turns to attack Crono (Hendrik's damage is not great.  However, he can 3HKO Crono physically. (under the raw average, he has an argument for 2HKOing with how DQXI allows hot-swapping: Gyrfalcon->Unbridled will get him to damn near exact HP kill, but for the purposes of this I'll be taking the harsher 3-turn average)

If Crono's coming in with anything other than the Swallow, he loses.  Crono gets first turn, then trades while Hendrik buffs, heals, and beats him down.

With my speed and turn order interp, the following would roughly take:

Crono: Confuse (22.6%) (78/90 MP)
Crono: Confuse (45.2%) (66/90 MP)
Hendrik: Buff.  Confuse does scratch damage now.
Crono: Luminaire (68.5%) (46/90 MP)
Hendrik: Healmore (39.1%)
Crono: Luminaire (62.4%) (26/90 MP)
Hendrik: Healmore (33%)
Crono: Luminaire (56.6%) (6/90 MP)

at this point Crono is out of gas and at Hendrik's mercy, or lack thereof.

If we take Crono as straight doubling and going first, we'd have:

Crono: Confuse (22.6%) (78/90 MP)
Crono: Confuse (45.2%) (66/90 MP)
Hendrik: Buff.  Confuse does scratch damage now.
Crono: Luminaire (68.5%) (46/90 MP)
Crono: Luminaire (91.8%) (26/90 MP)
Hendrik: Healmore (62.4%)
Crono: Luminaire (85.7%) (6/90 MP)

Still out of gas.  Spincut isn't doing anything here through Buff.

Crono straight-up 5-2ing would look closer to:

Crono: Confuse (22.6%) (78/90 MP)
Crono: Confuse (45.2%) (66/90 MP)
Hendrik: Blockenspiel (incoming damage halved)
Crono: Confuse (56.5%) (54/90 MP)
Crono: Confuse (67.8%) (42/90 MP)
Crono: Confuse (79.1%) (30/90 MP) (Blocking may start to trigger around here)
Hendrik: Healmore (49.7%)
Crono: Confuse(72.3%) (18/90 MP)
Crono: Confuse(94.9%) (6/90 MP)
Hendrik: Healmore (65.5%)

Even with this, Crono is going to be completely out of gas and essentially trying to chip Hendrik out, who can beat him to death with impunity.  Ultimately, to win, I feel Crono would need: a speed spread that lets him 8-3 Hendrik at minimum, plus the more favorable damage scaling treatment (again, this is a bit of an overshoot for Crono's physicals, as the nature of subtractive defense means he would be likely doing less than demonstrated here with his below-average damage on Confuse), and needing the shield block to never go off across the many, many attacks Hendrik will be facing.  With all that in mind, I feel firmly secure in awarding the win on this match to Hendrik.  Good damn match.

Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Guy (Lufia 2) - Feels fairly straightforward.  Guy's going to generally be on the back foot between debuffs, itemcast Deban, an extremely generous TP pool for healing, and the looming threat of ID that lets him win without building up extra IP for Guy.

Light:

Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Setzer Gabianni (FF6) ...i've not played OP enough nor remember enough of Setzer to make a good judgment on this one.
Thief(male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4) - not sure how much I respect Steal Weapon?  I remember you could hot-swap weapons in the SNES-era FFs, but...Kain's damage is utterly miserably bad as-is anyway.  ...as is Thief's.  Thief is faster, and clearly what we should be hyping is that non-elemental Jump is regarded as Throw-element and thus you have an argument for Catch working against it and...

okay, in seriousness, both are about the same, but I *believe* Thief is faster.  I think...hm, Thief probably edges out with status weapons.  A slapfight for the ages.  One of the greats for sure.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 06:17:56 AM by 074 »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

SnowFire

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Rudo Marco (Brig) vs Yuna (FFX)
Yeah Rudo isn't THAT fast.  Suspect that even nerfed Yuna can do this, opening with Protect + high evade = Rudo can't really threaten a OHKO and will run out of MP.

Middle:

Crono (CT) vs Hendrik (DQ11)
It's a nearly free win if you let Hendrik get any sort of Lightning resist at all, and he probably wins without it per 074's turn order from sustaining through Crono's assault with healing.  (Note that Act II Hendrik is even safer here as his healing is relatively better.)

Light:

Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Setzer Gabianni (FF6)
idk where I see the FF6 damage average these days, but...  yeah, if Setzer equips for ID, Ophilia can blitz down, if he equips for Fixed Dice, it's going to take too long to get a streak of high-damage rolls before Ophilia can unload with massive damage.
Thief(male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4)
I guess I'll buy the hype.  Kain definitely shouldn't even bother Blood Spear due to Steal Weapon hype and hope just to outslug with best damage, but I'll assume he narrowly doesn't win anyway.

Cmdr_King

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Godlike:

Melfice (G2) vs Reicher Wallach (MK2)
Rudo Marco (Brig) vs Yuna (FFX)- No vote.

Heavy:


Rabbid Luigi (Mario Rabbids) vs Red (SaGa)- No vote.
Lassic (PS4) vs Hugo (S3)- The fact this even gave people pause is testament to how much damage Hugo's base is.


Middle:

Crono (CT) vs Hendrik (DQ11)- No vote.
Hahn Mahlay (PS4) vs Guy (Lufia 2)

Light:

Ophilia Clement (Octopath) vs Setzer Gabianni (FF6)
Thief(male)(FFT) vs Kain Highwind (FF4)
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

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