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Author Topic: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field  (Read 2443 times)

superaielman

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Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« on: May 06, 2022, 07:48:19 PM »
Godlike:

Esmeralda (Octopath) vs Loki (VP1)
Rhea (FE3H) vs Myria (BoF3)
Elc (AtL2) vs Profound Darkness (PS4)
Baramos (DQ3) vs Orlandu (FFT)

Heavy:
Felix (FE3H) vs Daos (Lufia 2)
Finn (CSH) vs Freyjadour (S5)
Luminary (DQ11) vs Alicia (VP2)
Stella (Brig:LoR) vs Serge (CC)

Middle:
Lysithea (FETH) vs Squall (FF8)
Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Robo (CT)
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Lightning (FF13)
Sylvando (DQ11) vs Nergal (FE7)

Light:

Flayn (FETH) vs Cecil (FF4)
Shu (AtL2) vs Locke (FF6)
Primrose (Octopath) vs Noel (SO2)
Dorothea (FETH) vs Jane (ACF)
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superaielman

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2022, 08:04:05 PM »
Godlike:

Esmeralda (Octopath) vs Loki (VP1)- Esmeralda is a sitting duck in game with her mighty four shielding. I don't have any respect at all for her durability. Good damage doesn't make up for that.
Elc (AtL2) vs Profound Darkness (PS4) - Waiting to see Pyro/Dhyer weigh in. Light weakness does help Elc out but that's a lot of HP to chew through. Edit: don't see the gravity working here which seals it.
Baramos (DQ3) vs Orlandu (FFT)- Baramos has nasty offense and outstanding durablity, but he's not very fast. Cid's going to be doubling him constantly; his own double actions aren't quite enough to make up for that.


Heavy:
Luminary (DQ11) vs Alicia (VP2)- Also unsure; need to think if he can smash past her healing or not.
Stella (Brig:LoR) vs Serge (CC)- Think her outstanding durability's enough to avoid a OHKO while I'd bet Stella can effectively two round him back. The light weakness makes it interesting, but my inclination is to vote this way.

 vs

Middle:
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Lightning (FF13)- Better slugger. I don't think Light's healing can keep her afloat here.
Sylvando (DQ11) vs Nergal (FE7)- Kneejerk Sylvando bad against bosses vote.

 
Light:

Shu (AtL2) vs Locke (FF6)- Shu's offense is so appallingly bad that I bet Locke ID/damage can outrace it. Valiant Knife ignoring his defense is a problem too. E: right, time bomb is a thing.
Primrose (Octopath)vs Noel (SO2)- Noel can't block dark!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 07:46:58 PM by superaielman »
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074

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2022, 08:54:19 PM »
Godlike:

Elc (AtL2) vs Profound Darkness (PS4) - Not quite up to a decision on this, but I'm not sure I'd see Divide factoring, as it appears to be a gravity effect with a damage floor..
Baramos (DQ3) vs Orlandu (FFT) - Not a strong nod, since Orlandu doesn't cleanly double, but then again, Baramos doesn't regularly from what I gather of this.  He'll have to drop the Bracer for a confuse blocker (and may trade the crystal shield for a fire shield to force him to use weaker magic or block), but Baramos misses the 2HKO just barely.  Do I believe Orlandu will get the ~10-11 hits he needs to win before Baramos gets a pair of doubles with none in turn from T.G. Cid?  ...eh, probably.

Heavy:

Felix (FE3H) vs Daos (Lufia 2) - Goes first and definitely doubles, but I'm seeing Daos either dodge counters via multitarget spells or land a focused spell before Felix can land a kill; dude's got power but can't leverage either of Daos' big weaknesses.
Luminary (DQ11) vs Alicia (VP2) - simpler than I thought it was.  VP2 doesn't have a Sleep status or Sleep blocker, DQ sleep doesn't get cancelled by damage, Pepped Greatsword Sword Dance 2HKOs (crits notwithstanding), and between Luminary's full healing, MP pool, and Alicia's bad damage, odds are high that Luminary wins this eventually.

Middle:
Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Robo (CT) - Setsuna can set up, I believe, to overpower Robo with buff stacking and then Luminaires.  She goes first, can do enough damage to make sure Crisis Arm isn't a threat, and then buff to kill.
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Lightning (FF13) - Mario looks like he hits *way* harder than Lightning can keep up with.
Sylvando (DQ11) vs Nergal (FE7) - Nergal HP scaling notwithstanding, Sylvando needs to use a turn on Oomphle just to get his damage up to averageish.  I'm open to arguments but not feeling Sylvando has what it takes for this one.


Light:

Flayn (FETH) vs Cecil (FF4) - Flayn runs into resistance...but pending on which damage average you take, Cecil may not be able to break her regen with Caduceus?  This feels weirdly off to me, no vote for now. [EDIT] Apparently this problem is unique to me since I don't really allow AS-based doubling to non-FE characters.  Will need to deliberate more.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 04:01:12 AM by 074 »
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2022, 09:47:59 PM »
Godlike:

Esmeralda (Octopath) vs Loki (VP1)- Esmeralda's damage is physically dependent. Granted, this is two divisions higher than I see Esmerelda and her 0.425 PC HP.
Elc (AtL2) vs Profound Darkness (PS4)- A lot of HP to chew through means hilarious Divide strategies. Elc won't even need Invincible here to do anything.

Heavy:
Finn (CSH) vs Freyjadour (S5)- Finn hates Fire res and healing.
Stella (Brig:LoR) vs Serge (CC)- Faster and turn 1 Stun to me makes this easy

Middle:
Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Robo (CT)- Setsuna barely outspeeds Robo turn 1 and has much more/better healing.

Light:
Shu (AtL2) vs Locke (FF6)- So, I think evasion tips this. Shu has 31% evade to me. Locke gets 3 attacks (2 of which hit) before the second time bomb kills him and so needs to do half of Shu's HP. Locke does about 6600 damage with Valiant Knife + 1/2 HP Valiant Knife, although Shu cuts the non ITD part by about 30%, so make that 5100. Shu has a little over 11000 equiv FF 6 damage, so Locke doesn't manage to do half his HP. So
Locke->Shu (L2 Time Bomb)->Locke (Misses)->Shu (Uh...unneeded defense buff)->Time Bomb Hits Locke; Locke at 1/2 HP->Locke->Shu (L3 Time Bomb kills Locke, but not Shu)

Edit: That said, if you see Shu countering Locke's physicals this is even worse. L2 Time Bomb + 2 Physicals kill Locke (so at worst 3 physical attempts). The 3 attempts become the counter to Locke's first attack, the counter to Locke's second attack and Shu's second turn.
Primrose (Octopath) vs Noel (SO2)- Celine would live longer in this fight than Noel...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 09:58:11 PM by Dhyerwolf »
...into the nightfall.

Pyro

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2022, 03:53:57 PM »
Godlike:

Esmeralda (Octopath) vs Loki (VP1)
Rhea (FE3H) vs Myria (BoF3)
Elc (AtL2) vs Profound Darkness (PS4): Buffed Drain is going to be 52% here? I don't know if she should qualify as immune. A light elemental physical helps some, and her physical is her best damage and he'll counter.
Baramos (DQ3) vs Orlandu (FFT): Healing and doubles is enough maybe?

Heavy:
Felix (FE3H) vs Daos (Lufia 2): Felix is going to do gross overkill with triple damage fists but Thunder OHKOs
Finn (CSH) vs Freyjadour (S5): This is going to take a while.
Luminary (DQ11) vs Alicia (VP2): Sleep eventually takes it?
Stella (Brig:LoR) vs Serge (CC)

Middle:
Lysithea (FETH) vs Squall (FF8): He 2HKOs through her regen? Even with a Killer Soulblade she can't do much. Maybe as a mage with Nosferatu? I don't know.
Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Robo (CT)
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Lightning (FF13): Too much damage.
Sylvando (DQ11) vs Nergal (FE7): Any ITD would do the trick but he doesn't have it.

Light:

Flayn (FETH) vs Cecil (FF4): Crit kills eventually? She's doubled even with Fire and has sub-par Luck by a fair bit!
Shu (AtL2) vs Locke (FF6): Counters and Time Bomb.
Primrose (Octopath) vs Noel (SO2): Some good seduced NPC.
Dorothea (FETH) vs Jane (ACF)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 04:38:24 PM by Pyro »

Random Consonant

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2022, 08:28:55 PM »
Godlike:

Esmeralda (Octopath) vs Loki (VP1) - 8PT boss durability is a big headache for me but I can't really see Diary Thief surviving at all if the first Indiscriminate rolls Holy at least once and yeah the chance of that happening is over 50%.
Elc (AtL2) vs Profound Darkness (PS4) - Not considering HP buffering + buffed Divide = lol.  Unless you want to argue PD shouldn't be hit by that but really I can't see the argument.

Heavy:
Felix (FE3H) vs Daos (Lufia 2) - Focused Thunder is a pretty easy OHKO.  Felix isn't even particularly close to one-rounding even with a brave quad.

Middle:
Lysithea (FETH) vs Squall (FF8)- oh Squall just OHKOs?  Well okay then.
Sylvando (DQ11) vs Nergal (FE7) - Sylvanado doesn't really do... damage.

Light:

Flayn (FETH) vs Cecil (FF4) - Uh if Cecil doubles he just kills here per Dhyer's FF4a numbers, Flayn be squish and his damage isn't -that- inept, at best she can try to delay that with Nosferatu but Cecil can just use his own crappy healing in response.
Shu (AtL2) vs Locke (FF6)
Primrose (Octopath) vs Noel (SO2)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 02:19:08 AM by Random Consonant »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2022, 10:14:08 PM »
Esmeralda (Octopath) vs Loki (VP1) - Four shield and probably higher than 50% chance to slam that Holy weakness before she gets a turn? Oh dear. I'm not even sure if I respect her surviving an Indiscriminate and a Dragon Orb turn, tbh, which basically kills her chances right there.
Rhea (FE3H) vs Myria (BoF3) - Do we even -have- numbers for Rhea? Also, are we talking specific Rhea forms here? Since she has two legal forms and one she obviously wants.
Elc (AtL2) vs Profound Darkness (PS4) - PD does -not- have MDef worth noting to deal with Elc's Divide even before it gets buffed. I suppose he may have some problems to close the deal near the end and the fourth form can dispel, but I suspect that, by the time Divide is no longer full healing Elc, he's already about one or two hits away from killing her. Not having actual HP buffers is a bummer for PD.

Felix Hugo Fraldarius (FE3H) vs Daos (Lufia 2) - Ouch, Daos OHKOs with Thunder and I think Felix doesn't quite 2HKO him back even if he dodges once. Considering Felix evade isn't turn one... yeah.
Stella (Brig:LoR) vs Serge (CC) - Melee damage against Stella rarely goes well for the opposing party. The White weakness barely even matters, she goes first, counters to me and that's... pretty much it. If you see her getting off a Dragon's Destruction turn two, this gets -ugly-.


Lysithea von Ordelia (FETH) vs Squall Leonhart (FF8) - EDIT: Huh, Squall DOES OHKO. Nevermind.
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Claire "Lightning" Farron (FF13) - Mario actually pressures Lightning really hard, he heal-locks her with his base damage - which she may well not even fully heal! - and any time he hits a Hero Sight after a M-Power turn (by way of proccing Bounce), he just gets Lightning killed pretty hard. It's quite possible she can't actually get to a third M-Power cycle alive even if Bounce never procs during an oversight turn, since M-Power turns do outpace her healing - Mario's constantly gaining ground.

Flayn (FETH) vs Cecil Harvey (FF4) - Oh. This trainwreck. So, yeah: if Cecil doesn't double Flayn, he cannot win at all because he can't break her regen: he only 3HKOs and the fight's over if she lands a Cutting Gale crit after her own turn. This said... I'm not sure I see her avoiding that double, 19 AS is a good six points below average rounded up and Cecil's only 88% average speed. In that case, she actually has to resort to Nosferatu to stay alive and that's not a very good prospect. Frozen Lance also gets resisted by Cecil, which is a baaaaad sign. EDIT: Yeah, I think assuming Cecil doubles is reasonable. Though it speaks volumes to his issues that he -needs- to double to handle Flayn.
Shu (AtL2) vs Locke Cole (FF6) - Sure, I'll bite Dhyer's logic, especially considering I certainly see Shu countering.
Primrose Azelhart (Octopath) vs Noel Chandler (SO2) - Yeah, I still allow Allure summons and good lord, is Noel's offense appalingly bad. He has a painfully slow 6HKO against PRIMROSE and I think the chip damage from the calls actually put a bit too much pressure in conjunction with Primrose's 3BP turns.
Dorothea Arnault (FETH) vs Jane Maxwell (ACF) - Jane does not like the counters and Dorothea has the damage edge to begin with. If Jane even doubles, that just normalizes their damage in Doro's favor anyway, and I'm pretty sure Renewal just goddamn walls Jane to begin with.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 01:45:49 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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SnowFire

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2022, 01:23:46 AM »
Esmeralda (Octopath) vs Loki (VP1)
Per others.

Rhea (FE3H) vs Myria (BoF3)
No vote since I didn't finish BoF3, but assuming this is specifically "Rhea" and not "The Immaculate One"...  Rhea's surely getting wrecked, right?  Sword of Seiros parasitic healing that works on counters is extremely annoying a la Orlandu, but her durability is going to be questionable, even with support credit.  Pretty much a Radiant Dawn Sephiran situation of "wins easily if you can't OHKO, but OHKOing shouldn't be THAT hard."
If The Immaculate One is legal, then I haven't played Silver Snow, but by reputation she's pretty dirty there.  (Her tricks in Crimson Flower don't really translate - buffing allies - plus it seems like she suffers some harsh nerfs.  Meanwhile SS Immaculate One has stuff like Miracle + 51 Luck + 4 lifebars, 3 of which have Miracle.  Checking, the Luck is "only" 39 on Hard, but even if Myria hits for max damage every time, that's the ability to soak ~5-6 hits.  Gets even worse if she can't OHKO.)

Baramos (DQ3) vs Orlandu (FFT)
Block Confuse, yeah.  Baramos can go for Blasto expulsion but the odds are bad and I probably wouldn't let him spam that move (he only uses it once every 5 or so turns at most IIRC).

Heavy:
Felix (FE3H) vs Daos (Lufia 2)
Mostly anti-voting Daos, if he can't OHKO then he's eating a looooot of damage from two Felix turns. 
Finn (CSH) vs Freyjadour (S5)
The Prince has five shots of full healing, and this is a rare fight I'd be willing to spot some defend hype to him (since CSH characters also have Defend as a crucial part of their arsenal, only fair to let the opposition have it too).  Finn's damage is bad and per earlier discussions, I would allow some sort of "CSH enemies start piling up Style over time" so the Prince will eventually build up until he can throw two triple damage Crimson Sky ultimates in a row.
Luminary (DQ11) vs Alicia (VP2)
Inclined to agree with 074 - no Sleep blocker in VP2 means Luminary can buff up, Pep Up, and then do horrible things while Alicia dozes off.  Note that if you use Meeple's original interp, Alicia loses for free thanks to elemental resist woes, but Pyro's suggestion of using Gram means that Luminary's good elemental resist is less relevant.
Stella (Brig:LoR) vs Serge (CC)
I'll trust Jo'ou.

Middle:
Lysithea (FETH) vs Squall (FF8)
Squall just OHKOs.  He has 1117 damage according to the stat topic if I read it correctly, and there's a damage average of 653, so he hits for around .68 PCHP, which should be fatal vs. Lysithea.
Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Robo (CT)
Robo can't break through.  Setsuna could theoretically run out of MP but I doubt it.
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Lightning (FF13)
Sylvando (DQ11) vs Nergal (FE7)
Note that DQ11 pseudomagic does indeed ignore defense in its home game.  It's just that even given that, Sylvando's damage is awful, but it does have an argument for getting around Nergal's good defense.

If you let Sylvando equip two elemental resistance accessories and use an Act III interp, he should win, as he gets to 100% Dark Resist or something near to it.  (2 40% Dark resist accessories, then 10% each on Metal King Shield & Metal King Jacket.)  With an Act II interp and accessory messing allowed, it might be more interesting, as Devil's Tail is available in Act II if I recall correctly and is 30% Dark Resist (Dark is the easiest element to resist early), so he can stack 60% resist from accessories, and the baseline resistance will be less too if you care about scaling.

I think I only allow a single elemental resistance accessory, meaning Sylvando can get to 60% resist (which also involves tossing his normal armor for better elemental resist...  arguably worth some skepticism there for "rotate armor" tricks).  Scaling this vs. 37% default resistance is...  also 37% "scaled" dark resistance.  This will still cut Nergal's damage significantly.  So let's see: Nergal deals 0.8 PCHP damage, which is reduced to 0.50 PCHP damage by the scaled resistance.  Sylvando has 0.95 PCHP.   So yeah, Sylvando is still 2HKOed under this interpretation.  He has to pray that his best ST damage in Finger of Justice doubles and kills Nergal, which isn't TOTALLY nutso if you see it as true ITD and hitting Nergal's bad HP, but...  nah.  Still, if you see Nergal as having < 0.52 PCHP and see DQ11 as true ITD, or allow double elemental resist accessory stacking, Sylvando does have two potential arguments here.  (Doesn't make either of 'em to me, but it's not open & shut.)

Light

Flayn (FETH) vs Cecil (FF4)
Cecil's damage can't be THAT bad to not handle Flayn while doubling.
Primrose (Octopath) vs Noel (SO2)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 06:35:22 AM by SnowFire »

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2022, 03:51:05 PM »
Godlike:

Esmeralda (Octopath) vs Loki (VP1)
Rhea (FE3H) vs Myria (BoF3)
Elc (AtL2) vs Profound Darkness (PS4)- No vote.
Baramos (DQ3) vs Orlandu (FFT)- Without heavy math anyway this is probably right?

Heavy:
Felix (FE3H) vs [/b]Daos (Lufia 2)[/b]
Finn (CSH) vs Freyjadour (S5)
Luminary (DQ11) vs Alicia (VP2)- No vote
Stella (Brig:LoR) vs Serge (CC)- No vote

Middle:
Lysithea (FETH) vs Squall (FF8)
Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Robo (CT)
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Lightning (FF13)- No vote.
Sylvando (DQ11) vs Nergal (FE7)- No vote.

Light:

Flayn (FETH) vs Cecil (FF4)
Shu (AtL2) vs Locke (FF6)- I could probably?  Eh, I'd want to get further.
Primrose (Octopath) vs Noel (SO2)
Dorothea (FETH) vs Jane (ACF)- I... think, with the way I look at FE vs evade?
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2022, 06:20:42 AM »
Godlike:

Esmeralda (Octopath) vs Loki (VP1): Leaning towards Loki (though it might well rely on a 52% Indiscriminate luck check), but I'm very curious as to what sort of tortured math is needed to see an Octopath boss as half PCHP. That just feels like a comic exaggeration; they may lose turns to break, but they're clearly tanky. I feel like you'd need great offence (almost surely involving aftergame classes/gear) just to kill them in four turns, which is already above PCHP by most. For perspective, it generally took me 3 rounds to kill the bosses in the lead-up to the "true final", and that was with ridiculous aftergame cheese which nothing even approaches in the maingame.
Rhea (FE3H) vs Myria (BoF3): Myria having MT means she can avoid counters and probably do a barrier-break on turn 2, and should easily win the slugfest from there.

Heavy:
Felix (FE3H) vs Daos (Lufia 2): Someone with more respect for FE crits than me should seriously consider voting for Felix here, since his magic evade is already in the 30's, so the combined odds of either a dodge or a shockingly good critical streak might well let Felix win. ... but nope, I can't justify voting this way myself.
Finn (CSH) vs Freyjadour (S5): Finn sucks.
Luminary (DQ11) vs Alicia (VP2): Don't really respect DQ sleep in a short fight much, but against Alicia he's got time to make it work.
Stella (Brig:LoR) vs Serge (CC): Generally seconding everyone else. Serge absolutely needs to one-shot here, and I doubt that's happening.

Middle:
Lysithea (FETH) vs Squall (FF8): Yep, that's a OHKO.
Setsuna (Setsuna) vs Robo (CT): Robo's bad MDef probably loses him what hope he had of winning a stallfest.
Mario (Mario Rabbids) vs Lightning (FF13): Overpowers the healing, or can just win the slugfest.
Sylvando (DQ11) vs Nergal (FE7): I'm definitely less convinced than some others on this one. If Sylvando's damage is seen as ITD and doubles, then he just wins... Nergal's raw HP where ITD is concerned is *awful* (as in, around 30% PCHP). That said, I dunno that I consider it ITD. Anyone want to weigh in on that one?

Light:

Flayn (FETH) vs Cecil (FF4): Agree with Cecil doubling. Cecil is very close to average speed in my eyes. Sad that he needs to.
Primrose (Octopath) vs Noel (SO2): Oh thank goodness, dark res isn't a thing. Yeah Primrose can overpower healers with buffed
Dorothea (FETH) vs Jane (ACF): Three Houses uses two different evade stats, so the argument of letting Jane evade FE magic gets even weaker in this game (as well as SoV). Jane does not evade magic.

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SnowFire

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2022, 03:17:19 PM »
Elf: It's covered in some depth in the first post of the DQ11 stat topic thread.  Basically DQ11 has regular attacks, physical abilities, psuedomagic abilities, and actual magic.  Psuedomagic isn't affected by DQ11 defense, but it usually does have elements attached, and those elements can be resisted (and indeed frequently are).  Interestingly enough in Sylvando's case, his best damage doesn't have elements, and is thus not resistable.  So if Nergal's HP really is that bad, he can probably win, even if only seen as a mix of ITD?  (It could be argued that FE Defense is a "better" stat than DQ11 Defense of course.  I think there are some very rare abilities that happen after calculation, e.g. the final final Act III boss has a half-damage-no-exceptions barrier similar to FE Dragonskin that works on everything IIRC.)

Specifically, Act 3 Sylvando will use the non-elemental Finger of Justice, and since you're an Act II voter, I believe Gold Rush is what he'll fall back to.  Gold Rush is MT so can't double, but will presumably evade counters, so he can still aim for a 2HKO given full ITD respect + bad Nergal HP. 

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2022, 03:32:45 PM »
I see C4 OT boss HP as derived from their breakability (they get broken, they die) and the realistic chance that you might correctly guess their weaknesses (which generally comes down to first guessing that they are weak to weapons and elements the locked PC is guaranteed to have). Esmerelda is particurlarly heinous on this. 4 Shield and weak to Spears is bad because it means that there is a decent chance she's broken in a single move (I guess it could be worse; she could be weak to Spears and Arrows!). Regardless, 3 guessed moves to break her at worst, 1 at "best". I'd see her broken early turn 2, which means that the rest of turn 2 is spent buffing/debuffing and turn 3 she is blasted into space with 2 Divine Skills that are likely somewhat buffed. The best thing I can say about her breakability is that it's so horribly bad that you might break her too quickly, which is not something I really consider true of any other C4 boss.

I don't see Archmage/other mage as after game anyways. They are in your way and you can defeat them with minimal tactical defensive strategies (which I had spent all game waiting to be used after how important they were in BD/BS; one of the notable marks OT has against it). While they are better than C4 bosses, they also have rewards that any player is going to beeline for the first opportunity. I stole/merchanted items that were top of the line (which did give me notably higher damage than the topic), so that was available in town with a decent level of transparency so I definitely wouldn't consider those aftergame. I also kept a consistent party most of C3 to start, which helps boost damage (and the game's actual design encourages always leaving in some characters because their innates are so absurdly good or because removing them would be mentally antithetical to basically every RPG player (Therion)).

Lucia is durable, some of the others hover around PC HP to me, Esmerelda is bad.
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Random Consonant

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2022, 05:17:45 PM »
I'm not going to wade too far into this because it's a dumb hill to die on when she likely loses anyways but on a surface-level reading this seems to be a case of doubecrediting weaknesses combined with blatant overlevelling, neither of which are particularly good form.  The four optional jobs are most definitely not "in your way" as they're on little side trails that one might not even notice if they don't know where they are to begin with, and seeing as how the areas they're in are higher than what the game expects for any of the C4 areas anyways their relative difficulty doesn't strike me as terribly relevent regardless.

I mean yes, maybe there's a window where I could see Esmeralda as sub-PCHP from a "holistic" perspective, but 0.425 pretty much requires a "true" average of over (e: whoops)22000 after accounting for the required setup and seeing as how a single character can't deal more than 39996 without optional jobs scoffing at that figure is pretty justified.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2022, 05:35:25 AM by Random Consonant »

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2022, 03:29:57 AM »
Not sure how it's double crediting weakness, because I'm not seeing her as weak to anything Loki is doing and I'm saying that her HP is a direct function of metrics of breakability. The key is that breaking denies her turns and boosts your damage in a way that made it very easy for me to kill her once broken (Defense Down really helps as well, boosting the two big heavy hitters 50%.). I don't give OT bosses any credit for any PC turns taken while she categorically is unable to act. I consider exploring the map on the way to towns pretty standard and the game has icons pop up on the map if you get close enough and I unlocked all the towns before proceeding to any stories.

Critically, if you mapped the 0.425 PC HP onto a standard formulation, that in no way is an average of 40,000 as 40000 x 4 PCs x 2.5 Turns x 0.425 PC HP 170,000 HP which is much more HP than she has.
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Random Consonant

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2022, 05:34:53 AM »
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Not sure how it's double crediting weakness

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I'm saying that her HP is a direct function of metrics of breakability

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I don't give OT bosses any credit for any PC turns taken while she categorically is unable to act

Which in this context is a form of doublecrediting weaknesses.  Broken enemies still recover from break if you don't kill them fast enough saying PC actions taken magically "don't count" somehow is no different than pretending some bosses are magically more frail than others because they happen to be slow or can be hit with action-denying status.  The fact that in the case of 8PT it's a product of weaknesses rather than anything else is immaterial. 

Again, I am not advocating that any 8PT boss is a deathtank and certainly not Esmeralda because I know they aren't, I am saying that that there is a difference between acknowledging that lategame 8PT bosses crumple hard with proper setup and pretending that there is some sort of massive durability failure going on here because you played the game in a certain way that others didn't and your arguments fall in the latter category.

Quote
Critically, if you mapped the 0.425 PC HP onto a standard formulation, that in no way is an average of 40,000 as 40000 x 4 PCs x 2.5 Turns x 0.425 PC HP 170,000 HP which is much more HP than she has.

This was an error on my part because I was in a hurry and calculating the wrong thing and never went back to correct it, yes, in truth it's "only" 22,694 or to kill her in 4.25 actions, however I can't help but notice that you used that error to completely ignore the broader point, which is setting up that much damage in the first place is more than 4.25 actions effectively committed to offense between pommegranates, setting up the buffs/debuffs/divine skills, and actually breaking her in the first place and that pretending otherwise is ridiculous no matter what you actually do.

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2022, 01:02:31 PM »
The counterbalance is that if I factored those turns into her HP, then I'd have to look at her speed. She double-acts on turn 1 (well, potential to gets one action on turn two but also potentially gets no actions turn 1) and then she acts again on turn 4 (Could be turn 3 if broken turn 1. I'm assuming that she must have recovery initiative for both actions that isn't effected by Legtrap Hold). Either I'm double lapping her like crazy or she's very frail. If I didn't prorate her HP and gave her all the actions, based on my game experience (of which I could go into detail, especially in particular on why I think the game kept making weird decisions that felt contrary to RPG player psychology that could directly impact level if you followed the game's suggestions), that would be double-crediting (for her in that case).

Also, I did address your broader point (you quoted my address; it's the first line in your last post); my address was that I didn't quite understand the nuance of the what you were arguing based on your post. Hence why I responded to each previous line you had made in order.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2022, 02:49:38 PM »
You keep referring to "RPG player psychology" as some weird argument ad populum for choices you made, but somehow lack the self-reflection to notice that you're the only one who thinks a C4 Octopath boss is in Middle. There's obviously a fundamental flaw in your argument.

The game could not spell out more clearly that the job shrines are intended for after Chapter 4. As Random mentioned they're not in the way at all. The bosses are clearly stronger; go look at the stat topic. And in case that was too subtle, the game even straight-up lists a recommended level for them higher than what it does for Chapter 4. Not even a hidden one (like how some Wild Arms games will signal aftergame bosses by giving them levels higher than the final dungeon, which you can only see via scan), it's right there in your face. You can go out of order if you want, but that's like completing the Omega Ruins and acuqiring all celestial weapons before fighting Jecht. Certainly a reasonable number of players do that, but we all understand that's not how the boss is intended to be scaled.

Even if you manage to kill a boss in three turns (which again, I don't think is remotely possible without aftergame stuff), it's due to breaking them, and breaking them should be held against them by opponents who can actually do it. Like, if Loki didn't have Indiscriminate, he would not hit Esmeralda's weakness, and suddenly this would be a difficult fight for him. The fact that he does is why he wins. I can't tell if you're doublecrediting Octopath weaknesses (which is a no-no), or just assuming that all Octopath bosses are always getting their weakness hit even by opponents who clearly don't have them, which is incredibly boring because it reduces the personality of duels. It's much more interesting if bosses do worse against opponents who can actually strike their weakness.

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2022, 09:56:10 PM »
I definitely hold breaking against bosses in the dl; it's a massive damage multiplier in terms of what they face in terms of damage done to them. Esmeralda is an extreme example because her shielding is so bad, but I definitely see her as not durable because of that.
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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2022, 03:44:49 AM »
Except for Lucia (who is an extreme outlier, functioning entirely differently from other Octopath bosses in general), the shield stats of the C4 bosses are 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, and 6. (All of these increase after being broken the first time.) I'm not sure where this "Esmeralda's shield stat is so bad" narrative is coming from, she's a fraction of a point below average. It is not hard to break an Octopath boss within the first two rounds; nobody argues this. It is very hard to kill them before they recover from break the first time, because your base damage is in the 3 digits and they have 80k-110k HP typically. Multipliers let you do a lot of damage, but not that much.

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Re: Futurama type tournament- other half of the field
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2022, 03:31:10 PM »
Middle:
Lysithea (FETH) vs Squall (FF8) - Y'know, I tried very hard to think of a way for Lysithea to win this. But the only way that is really possible requires on a series of progressively favourable calls for her such as not letting Squall access to his Lionheart weapon (possible! But you'd have to apply this strict equipment restriction across everything in the DL), needing to get first strike (DLC), needing to OHKO (tough since Squall also has the highest HP out of the FF8 cast sans Ward/PC Seifer IIRC). Oh well, at least he loses next week.

Light:
Flayn (FETH) vs Cecil (FF4) - This is a bit of a slapfest, but I have to imagine as Pyro noted, that if Flayn gets weighted down by Fire and gets doubled, there is no way Cecil doesn't win. His offense can't be *that* bad. Also, doesn't Flayn also run the risk of running out of charges?
Dorothea (FETH) vs Jane (ACF) - If you see the fight going long enough, I guess Jane CAN win this via a crit but that's super unlikely. For starters, Dorothea has counters to offset her speed advantage, so whenever she attacks, Doro will trade with her AND she has better damage. Jane's skillset doesn't do much to buy her more time here. What can you do? might stop individual attacks but you have to a) See it catching magic. As NEB noted, ACF doesn't have Magic Evade. b) Doro has 2 shots of Meteor and those are AoE. Jane's just not very good in a slugfest. She's basically fishing and Dorothea just kind of works around her tricks
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