Author Topic: Season 42-2: Icy overkill within (Read 10720 times)

Meeplelard · « **Reply #50 on:** April 14, 2008, 01:55:26 AM »

I thought Limits just had 255% hit, period, so what weapon you use is completely irrelevant to a limit missing or not. Could be mistaken granted. 255% Hit is max, however, unlike most FF games, FF7 has 255% Hit just mean you need a little more than 60% evasion for there to be a hit rate below 100% (compared to FF6 or FF8, where in both cases, 255% hit means you'll never miss; Cactuars prove this easily enough. I think FF10 does the same thing, but testing that is a much bigger pain...unless FFX is completely lacking in true Evade Ignoring, and all evade ignoring moves are just tagged 255% Accuracy, which has the same effect in practice and...yeah, I'll shut up <_<; )

That said...
There are ways you CAN manipulate FF7 Accuracy of Limits, namely Fury Status. It kills your accuracy; use that, go find an evasive enemy, use Limit a bunch of times, it'll probably miss eventually (those weirds in Ancient Forest come to mind.)

Blind probably works to, and ideally both could be used, but not sure if its possible for a PC to apply Blind, let alone if Blind is used by any enemy with noteworthy evasion for that matter (all FF7 status but Sadness and Fury are healed after battle.)

superaielman · « **Reply #51 on:** April 14, 2008, 01:58:38 AM »

Yeah, the FAQs I checked said that all limits have a flat 255% hit rate. The only thing that makes them miss in the DL is perfect evasion.. which Sheena has. More to the point, Sheena should be able to chip past Cid's dangerous limits without any trouble.

Taishyr · « **Reply #52 on:** April 14, 2008, 06:18:38 AM »

Godlike

Seymour Guado (FFX) vs. False Althena (L:EBC) - Ahahahahaha Seymour. Go champ or something Althena, please? >_>
Deathevans (BoF2) vs. Miguel (CC) - Miguel likes my scaling-up method, too, and Evans doesn't like the fact that I'm now holding Shamans against him. (Wasn't before, but decided it represents the fight best.)
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs. Rika (PS4) - ... Close, to me? But not enough.
Lulu (FFX) vs. Ryu (BoF4) - ...uh, hell, lemme think on this one for a bit. This is... mrf, okay, hm.

Heavy

Arc Eda Ricolne (AtLC) vs. Selan (Lufia 2) - Arc for Middle. (Poor Arc.)
Sasarai (S3) vs. Neclord (Suikos) - ... maybe? Sasarai durability respect not found, but... mmm.
Articuno (PKMN) vs. Tosh (AtLC) - Ow pain ouch poor Tosh.

Middle

Sheena Lepant (Suikos) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7) - Uh apparently Sheena was decent or something, I still don't know if it's a guy or a girl? But if it had a locked rune in S1, it's got good damage anyway, so win.
Alice Elliot (SH1) vs. Dupa (S3) - Nuke.
Roland (DDS) vs. Nei (PS2) - Nuke. Nei's healing isn't good enough, durability is pretty okay but Roland's just generally better I think?

Light

Is. Epic.

superaielman · « **Reply #53 on:** April 14, 2008, 06:26:23 AM »

Shamans for Deathevans? Don't think I agree with that one, if only because of the reversion trick the game does. That does (even worse) things to his damage though. Ouch.

Taishyr · « **Reply #54 on:** April 14, 2008, 06:35:40 AM »

I don't even remember the reversion trick, but yeah, since I'm beginning to allow similar things I think that gets included... which kinda nukes what he does have to hell.

superaielman · « **Reply #55 on:** April 14, 2008, 06:43:44 AM »

Game deshamans you before you fight Deathevans. You have to exit and reenter Infinity to fight him with Shamans.

Taishyr · « **Reply #56 on:** April 14, 2008, 07:42:35 AM »

Where did it do that? >_> I don't even remember this... Just remember throwing Ryu/Shaman'd Nina/Shaman'd... someone? Rand or Katt?/Deis at him

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #57 on:** April 14, 2008, 07:49:16 AM »

It's right... before? After? The fight that nets you Infini.

Pyro · « **Reply #58 on:** April 14, 2008, 11:48:18 AM »

Right after you acquire Anfini/Infini. It also deshamans you if you get killed/reduced to low HP. Regardless, if you want shamans when you fight him you have to escape the dungeon and go all the way back down again. And do it without losing anyone or having them get hurt. Which is doable, given things like Nina's Banish and Death and stuff.

Taishyr · « **Reply #59 on:** April 14, 2008, 01:58:55 PM »

...Okay, yeah. I can see not allowing them or allowing them because of that, but it doesn't really change my view (Getting out of there was easy, IIRC, except for one of the rooms that I consistently got lost in.)

Grefter · « **Reply #60 on:** April 14, 2008, 02:33:04 PM »

The game supports going in and out of the dungeon at least once anyway with Sten chests. I refuse to believe it was built expecting Sten to be an actually used character.

SageAcrin · « **Reply #61 on:** April 14, 2008, 02:51:22 PM »

One must wonder why the heck FF7 was silly enough to have enemies that have 255% evade half the time and normal evade the other half.

Not that it matters, but still.

Godlike

Seymour Guado (FFX) vs. False Althena (L:EBC): FA. Yeah, sure. *Yawns.* Damage slugfests are boring~
Deathevans (BoF2) vs. Miguel (CC): Miguel. DE is not a boss fighter.
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs. Rika (PS4): Leaning Rika. Doesn't...Rika just...smash up one(or both!) of the clones first before Dhoul 1 gets going? I can't really see a way around that off the top of my head.
Lulu (FFX) vs. Ryu (BoF4): Ryu.

Though for the record I think Lulu probably has an argument. It doesn't really matter, because even if she lives long enough to smash every dragon out of enough HP to live through the breaths...Ryu doubles her eventually with one of the dragons and that's that. Alternatively, Stardrop. Punk probably lives through doublecast Flare with that MDef and stat-nukes her. I love Stardrop.

Heavy

Arc Eda Ricolne (AtLC) vs. Selan (Lufia 2): Selan. I've been allowing defend commands, last I checked. In a case where Arc has to whore really annoyingly long to win, it's only proper that he gets outwhored, so for once I'm pretty happy with the decision I've kept with.

Alternatively, does Weak Enemy *actually* last forever? I was thinking it didn't, but I dunno.
Sasarai (S3) vs. Neclord (Suikos): Neclord. Kneejerk.
Articuno (PKMN) vs. Tosh (AtLC): Articuno.
Boomerang (WA1) vs. Sync (TotA): Sync. Lucky bastard.

Middle

Sheena Lepant (Suikos) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7): Sheena. See arguments beforehand.
Alice Elliot (SH1) vs. Dupa (S3): Alice. Isn't Dupa.
Roland (DDS) vs. Nei (PS2): Roland. Seem to recall Nei had rather poor defense when she left and that Roland's physical end stats were pretty much generally good, like Heat's but more balanced. That...really ought to be enough, I think, for Roland to 2HKO and not get 2HKOed back? This is probably the closest thing to an indepth analysis you're getting out of anyone, and RIGHTFULLY SO.
Konrad (S4) vs. Paine (FFX-2): Paine. Kneejerk.

Light

Zhuzhen Liu (SH1) vs. Alfred Schoredinger (WA3): Zhuzhen.
Shady (WA3) vs. Ard (WA2): ~~Shady.~~ The two merge and rampage through the DL, slaughtering all in their wake. The new DL overlord is nigh. All shall tremble before Shardy.
Jayle (VP1) vs. Gong (SF1): Jayle. Gong really wishes he could reliably break defense worth a damn. He'd have a case then! One that PWSes play hell with, but the match could be interesting then. Oh well!
Rody (S3) vs. Dinn (S5): Dinn. Not Rody.

superaielman · « **Reply #62 on:** April 14, 2008, 04:17:26 PM »

Weak Enemy lasts 1-3 rounds based on the level you use.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #63 on:** April 14, 2008, 05:14:18 PM »

I definitely consider shamans for Evans. Warping out then dedoing the first half of the final dungeon (without detours for chests this time) seems pretty reasonable to me; I want to use those shiny Holy/Dark shamans I got, damnit! As a compromise I don't consider the levels gained from the second trek.

Though, his damage is for the most part ITD breaths and Bonelaser, so it doesn't matter too much. Mostly affects how you see his speed. And durability some.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #64 on:** April 14, 2008, 10:34:42 PM »

Quote from: superaielman on April 14, 2008, 04:17:26 PM

Weak Enemy lasts 1-3 rounds based on the level you use.

Actually, it always lasts three rounds. What changes with the levels is just the spell radius.

Pyro · « **Reply #65 on:** April 14, 2008, 10:42:53 PM »

I know buffs last 3-5 depending on the level used, not sure about debuffs/Weak Enemy. As for being infinite, Weak Enemy is retardedly cheap (as in, free for Arc considering the craptacular MP regen) and can be reapplied. So in practice its indefinite.

Not that this probably matters, but there you go.

Meeplelard · « **Reply #66 on:** April 15, 2008, 12:10:36 AM »

Quote from: Dark Holy Elf on April 14, 2008, 05:14:18 PM

I definitely consider shamans for Evans. Warping out then dedoing the first half of the final dungeon (without detours for chests this time) seems pretty reasonable to me; I want to use those shiny Holy/Dark shamans I got, damnit! As a compromise I don't consider the levels gained from the second trek.

Though, his damage is for the most part ITD breaths and Bonelaser, so it doesn't matter too much. Mostly affects how you see his speed. And durability some.

Just to add to this, Shamans do *NOT* increase HP, so that wouldn't alter his damage much. Basically, damage wise, all that changes is his physical (which was his best damage before Bone Lzr, but not that much greater than Ice Breath IIRC?), which hits defense.

BaconForTheSoul · « **Reply #67 on:** April 15, 2008, 05:47:53 AM »

Quick question about Seymour/FA. How is letting FA spam Ray any different than letting Seymour choose elemental shift?

You have to let FA break in game AI and spam Ray, and not let Seymour break in game AI and use elemental shift at will for him to lose this. (Or not allow focusing like Super.) Obviously we give bosses AI... so even if Ray is only a 1/5 attack on a set pattern, I can see allowing spam. (I semi scale and allow Ray every 4th turn, similar to Jade and Boltx 1/17, but obviously some people let spamming go period.) However, this should be universal. Seymour should be allowed to spam his elemental shift, even if it's on an unbreakable set pattern.

Obviously someone will say that it takes like 15 hits to get to thunder or whatever and in DL a fight would never go that long etc, but by that same logic, FA would never even live to see Ray. Dunno, seems like double standards up in here.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #68 on:** April 15, 2008, 05:58:33 AM »

If I allow elemental shift at all (things that involve support = sketchy to me), then I allow it to be spammed, yes.

What I don't allow is for him to break the order, the order that is set in stone by the very shape of the Mortiphasms. So he has to shift three times to reach lightning mode, and en route to it he passes through the lightning-weak water mode.

If I saw Seymour tanking 3.5 Rays (more probably, FA should double in there), then I would definitely vote for him. Buuut I definitely don't; not even close.

BaconForTheSoul · « **Reply #69 on:** April 15, 2008, 02:24:14 PM »

Quote

What I don't allow is for him to break the order, the order that is set in stone by the very shape of the Mortiphasms.

Ehh that's what I see as weird. Her attack order is also set in stone... unless I'm seriously forgetting that fight properly and I misread stat topic. Attack AI and support AI really isn't all that different IMO, just different nuances of bosses.

Guess I'm just surprised that I'm the only one here that doesn't allow Ray spam and/or doesn't allow Seymour to choose his shifting. (I don't personally, based on how I see boss AI, but since that also means I don't let FA spam Ray he wins regardless. I think if I allowed Ray spam I'd have to allow Seymour to shift to what he wants since both clearly skip a set in stone procedure.)

SageAcrin · « **Reply #70 on:** April 15, 2008, 02:49:10 PM »

Quote from: Cryo on April 14, 2008, 10:42:53 PM

I know buffs last 3-5 depending on the level used, not sure about debuffs/Weak Enemy. As for being infinite, Weak Enemy is retardedly cheap (as in, free for Arc considering the craptacular MP regen) and can be reapplied. So in practice its indefinite.

Not that this probably matters, but there you go.

Yeah, but the Invincible L2 he needs to apply it with to avoid getting smashed up while he's doing it isn't cheap. I can't actually see a way around this part, particularly since base Arc isn't especially fast by any view, IIRC.

Also, wait, Arc has to rely on a (admitably common, but also admitably IIRC actually a normal item customized up) drop to block Sleep, doesn't he? Otherwise Drowsy gets him.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #71 on:** April 15, 2008, 03:22:40 PM »

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't recall much of anything in Lunar 2 having discernable AI restrictions...

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #72 on:** April 15, 2008, 04:45:43 PM »

Quote from: Chapin on April 15, 2008, 02:24:14 PM

Quote
What I don't allow is for him to break the order, the order that is set in stone by the very shape of the Mortiphasms.

Ehh that's what I see as weird. Her attack order is also set in stone... unless I'm seriously forgetting that fight properly and I misread stat topic. Attack AI and support AI really isn't all that different IMO, just different nuances of bosses.

Guess I'm just surprised that I'm the only one here that doesn't allow Ray spam and/or doesn't allow Seymour to choose his shifting. (I don't personally, based on how I see boss AI, but since that also means I don't let FA spam Ray he wins regardless. I think if I allowed Ray spam I'd have to allow Seymour to shift to what he wants since both clearly skip a set in stone procedure.)

If you hold FA to her once every five turns Ray, then you should hold Seymour to his "shift only every five attacks" (i.e. he'll probably never live long enough to do it). Those two are the equivalent AI in this case.

The order of shifting is a bit different. Seymour doesn't have a "shift to lightning" or "shift to ice" attack, he has a "shift" attack. I allow attacks to be used in any order, but it seems pretty clear that Seymour can not ever do what you are describing him as able to do even if you give him full AI freedom. He just doesn't have the ability to rotate the Mortiphasms three times in one go. It'd need a tripleturn or something.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #73 on:** April 15, 2008, 10:38:20 PM »

Godlike

Seymour Guado (FFX) vs. False Althena (L:EBC) - I really like Chapin's view of how he holds bosses to their AI. It really seems like it would even things out between bosses and PCs in Godlike. However, it makes the already floundering bosses in Middle and Light a LOT worse. Still not sure how I want to look at this, but all the possible interps I can see have FA winning in this case.
Deathevans (BoF2) vs. Miguel (CC) - God, I hate Miguel. Die in a fire.
Dhoulmagus (DQ8) vs. Rika (PS4) - Dhoulmagus hardly feels like a godlike whereas Rika's champ-powered.
Lulu (FFX) vs. Ryu (BoF4) - This could be a close fight, but Ryu's just a little too fast for Lulu to ever get the advantage. Ryu hopes Dhoulmagus wins so he doesn't have to face Rika's super-accurate ID next round.

Heavy

Arc Eda Ricolne (AtLC) vs. Selan (Lufia 2) - I don't see Selan as that much faster than Arc, plus I assume Arc would be a slighter higher level than most AtL2 PCs from the save transer levels. (other games with save transfer get this boost too. S3 Futch is awesome for me.) Arc has no trouble finishing off Selan.
Sasarai (S3) vs. Neclord (Suikos) - Neclord wins in durability. If you see the match as dragging on, then Neclord's superior physicals might actually be the deciding factor here. Ha.
Articuno (PKMN) vs. Tosh (AtLC) - Easy win. Would be funny if Articuno gets to face ANOTHER elementally aligned dueler (like Sasarai) soon. Could hype Sync as 'emo-type'?
Boomerang (WA1) vs. Sync (TotA) - Emo-boy is champ-powered.

Middle

Sheena Lepant (Suikos) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7) - Sheena chips to avoid a Limit. For the record, I would see Cid's Limits as actually hitting him.
Alice Elliot (SH1) vs. Dupa (S3) - Dupa was actually a competent Lizard warrior, but Alice is just a bad draw for him. Suikoden's not having a good run this season.
Roland (DDS) vs. Nei (PS2) - I remember Nei as significantly faster than the rest of the cast before she leaves, why wouldn't she beat Roland to the 2HKO? Roland was just average from what I remember. I think a lot of people are Kneejerking on Roland based on Nei's direct-endgame-level comparison with the other PS2 cast members, which was posted first in the topic for so long.
Konrad (S4) vs. Paine (FFX-2) - Overpowers pretty easily. Still bad day for Suikoden.

Light

Zhuzhen Liu (SH1) vs. Alfred Schoredinger (WA3) - Because I played WA3 so underleveled, perhaps my WA3 boss respect is far too high? I can see Alfred as OHKOing this match to victory. Is he really as bad as the stat topic says?
Shady (WA3) vs. Ard (WA2) - Again, WA3 boss respect, Shady roasts this guy in one hit.
Jayle (VP1) vs. Gong (SF1) - About even, healing cinches it?
Rody (S3) vs. Dinn (S5) - Not Rody, instant win!

The only matches were Suikoden got a win were in matches where both opponents were from Suikoden...

-Djinn

Shale · « **Reply #74 on:** April 15, 2008, 10:44:13 PM »

For my part, I didn't realize FA was on a set pattern. Figured Ray was just your garden-variety "low random chance every turn" boss move.

On Seymour's elemental shift, as far as I'm concerned, the move isn't "change elemental resistance to X," it's "advance the wheel by one position." He can't change what order the wheel goes in.

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Author Topic: Season 42-2: Icy overkill within (Read 10720 times)

Taishyr

Taishyr

Taishyr

Pyro

Taishyr

Pyro