Author Topic: Meeple Fantasy 6  (Read 39134 times)

Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2010, 04:15:46 PM »
Yeah, Djinn, I wouldn't bother even thinking you're gonna make progress on fixing up any animations, ESPECIALLY if they require sprites.  Like I said, animations are not simple, especially ones with sprites involved, and you have very little flexibility there.  So if you're trying to make hack improvements through this, then I'd just give up on the idea.  The Seraphic Radiance Yuri one I can tell you already would NOT work for reasons I won't get into (I can tell how you got it into the game just for a screen cap, so people wondering how he pulled that off, its not something that's applicable in the actual patch itself.)
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #76 on: July 14, 2010, 04:50:19 PM »
Well, it's perfectly applicable if you don't mind changing up which Espers you're using in the patch.

I wish you wouldn't treat me like I have no idea how this whole hacking business works. I have just as much access to the internet as you, and there's a lot of information out there on how this stuff is done, specifically FF6 even!

So, I'd actually like to know the 'reasons you won't get into'. Trust me, I can understand the explanation.

Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #77 on: July 14, 2010, 05:20:26 PM »
Quote
Well, it's perfectly applicable if you don't mind changing up which Espers you're using in the patch.

This is exactly why it won't work.  We've been through this.  You tried to get Millenia in through that, I explained "No, we're keeping the Espers as they are."  I'm not futzing around with that.

I can't simply add a random pointer that doesn't exist to a new arbitrary sprite, and I have NO sprites to spare.  The Esper sprites are linked to specific spots, and specific molds; simply going "Oh, you can use a new sprite!" doesn't work.  Only specific sprites falling in a specific set will actually be called upon properly.  The rest lead to a cluster fuck.

I think you're assuming I'm a little more lenient on this stuff than you are.  I hand picked everything (Sans Siebzahn, but that's more a case of "Oh fuck, the sprite is way too delicate to mess with, like hell am I screwing with that" ...and then there's Garland, which technically CK picked and I just approved, but that was more "Ok, I have an 8 color sprite Esper that needs replacing, which means my options are limited since replacing 8 color wit 16 color = someone else gets fucked along the way! Any ideas?" "Easy! Use Garland! Make him use status!" "That's brilliant!", as opposed to "well...I guess..."), for the most part, and I like to keep it that way.

Its like I said; you're getting a little too ambitious at this stage, and I like to keep things the way they are.  Changing stuff like battle animations is not a particularly wise idea, especially if you're gonna try forcing a sprite to something that doesn't use one (it'd be one thing if there were Esper Attacks I wasn't using, but that's NOT the case here, so that idea is gone.)
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2010, 05:43:51 PM »
Oh, well if it's just a case "I don't want to, that's why", then that's fine. I just didn't like the idea that you were refusing to explain hacking mechanics.

It's your game after all, you can choose to have whatever you want in it.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2010, 05:53:24 PM »
Meeple, can you please abstain from treating Djinn badly when he's just trying to help you? >_>
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Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #80 on: July 14, 2010, 08:09:37 PM »
Ah, but when he signed up for the job, part of the contract said I can treat him however the hell I damn please!  Not my fault he didn't read the fine print until after I hit him with a truck <.<
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2010, 08:28:04 AM »
Anyway, more 'making the sprites not suck'!



In addition to making him not look like a hunchback, I made Yuri a unique casting animation since all of his abilities are 'Fusions'.

So now his casting animation makes him look like he's doing his pre-transformation screaming. And he's glowing cause I think it looks cool. I can't make it flash due to how the program reads the sprites, but it should still look fine.

I'll test it before I send in the finished spritesheet.

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2010, 08:53:47 AM »
Oh hell, disregard the above image, the colors are all fucked up thanks to the horrible monitor I was using before.

I will have correctly-colored sprites shortly.

Fixed the colors, but accidentally saved the preview as a JPEG. Argh.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 09:18:48 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2010, 01:36:23 PM »
Hmm...sprites look good and I suspect they'd be usable, but I have one issue with the casting ones.  This one isn't really your fault, just putting it into perspective relative to the game:

It wouldn't be used in areas you'd think.  Yuri's casting animation will only kick in when he's using a Summon, or during very specific animations.  And one of them, Demon Rays, his original casting animation actually tended to work better (since it looks better for a Hadoken style attack.)  Fusions unfortunately, just like Blitz, using the standard "Ready" position ala fight.  I'd have go to through each of Yuri's attacks and see which uses the Casting Animation.

So yeah, the only issue, perse, is not something that's your fault, and not something you're screwing up, just a quirk of the game that may have made your hard work a little less significant than it should be (I'm not attacking you at all, IOWs.)

Regarding the flash, could you possible just change the color of the glow each frame, or remove and put it back on?  This logic is what applied to, say, Gogo's hands, for example.  I figure you may have tried this already, but just making sure you "exhausted options".
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2010, 08:54:40 PM »
Due to how FF3 Sprite tiles work, there's only one tile that alternates during casting, so any kind of flashing aura around an entire sprite is impossible with just sprite manipulation (obviously the game has its own ways of making flashing characters ala Safe/Shell/etc).

As for casting animation not being used during Fusions/Blitzes... I actually think you can alter this using the latest version of FF3ME (6.7 beta). You might want to look into it, it's got a lot of newer features for playing around with animation sequences.

Oh, and I made Rachel into Alice.

I'll get you the tileset.bin file once I've finished fixing your palettes for you.

This sprite is totally dedicated to ClearTranquil.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 10:40:25 PM by DjinnAndTonic »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2010, 10:42:10 PM »
The Alice sprite looks gorgeous.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2010, 02:17:02 AM »
Hmm...sprites look good and I suspect they'd be usable, but I have one issue with the casting ones.  This one isn't really your fault, just putting it into perspective relative to the game:

It wouldn't be used in areas you'd think.  Yuri's casting animation will only kick in when he's using a Summon, or during very specific animations.  And one of them, Demon Rays, his original casting animation actually tended to work better (since it looks better for a Hadoken style attack.)  Fusions unfortunately, just like Blitz, using the standard "Ready" position ala fight.  I'd have go to through each of Yuri's attacks and see which uses the Casting Animation.

So yeah, the only issue, perse, is not something that's your fault, and not something you're screwing up, just a quirk of the game that may have made your hard work a little less significant than it should be (I'm not attacking you at all, IOWs.)

Regarding the flash, could you possible just change the color of the glow each frame, or remove and put it back on?  This logic is what applied to, say, Gogo's hands, for example.  I figure you may have tried this already, but just making sure you "exhausted options".

Clearly it's time to reassign the animations/effects to Skills and let someone else utilize the Fusion/Blitz mechanic. It's not like Shadow Hearts has any kind of fighting-game-style inputs like Blitz anyway. ...Maybe Fayt, being from an ARPG would be a good candidate to use the Blitz slots?

It's just a matter of switching around animations, which is much easier to do with the new FF3usME release! (Well, okay, it would also involve switching around which weapons teach which spells/blitzes for Fayt/Yuri, but that's fairly simple too.) Also, we should totally take advantage of the new 'change the Blitz inputs' feature so that it's easier to do the Blitzes on a keyboard.


Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2010, 03:06:16 AM »
Blitzes are quite easy to do on a keyboard, though. The input recognition is lenient beyond belief, even Bum Rush is hardly a problem to do.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2010, 03:28:50 AM »
Maybe with your fancy South American keyboards, but I get frustrated trying to do any Blitzes with a diagonal input on a keyboard.

Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2010, 03:32:27 AM »
I'm not changing the characters on the fundamental level; gameplay wise, I'm not fucking with MF6 as its been handled delicately thus far.  Outside of a few minor tweaks, the characters are not changing.  So yeah, you can forget THAT idea.

Yuri using Blitzes works anyway cause half the animations/effects were already well crafted to him, especially since the Blitz user was Sabin who also was a Fist Fighter much like Yuri!  

Changing Blitz inputs is a bad idea, though; I made them with the idea of Blitz inputs being remembered (sans...For Everyone, a Blitz Input even I can't remember cause well, I NEVER USE SPIRALER, and half the time, I don't even get Sabin high enough level to learn it, so I never had a reason to care!)  And yeah, Snow's right; Blitz inputs are easy on a keyboard if you know some tricks (double tapping is the big one, since it allows you to bypass diagonals, which is the big Keyboard problem.)

Fayt's handled well enough in a way that I like.  He starts the game kind of weak (just like SO3), gets much better starting midgame, when Multi-jump starts kicking in, which is akin to when he starts getting ACTUAL MOVES ala Side Kick.  Never gets really bad after that, always remaining fairly competent.  It apparently ended up working nicely just going with the idea of "Better weapons to use Jump with!"  as well as a few gimmick options (He's the only character who can use Levantine *AND* X-fight at the same time, leading to a Valiant Knife-like scenario.)

I dunno, Ciato's assessment apparently has stated that, beyond some tweaking, it sounds like the characters are reasonably well balanced and representative of themselves.  Things that are hard to work around are stuff like Rolf who by nature, is tough to make work well due to the variety of factors involved (in that he CAN end up good, but there's no guarantee that someone will use him enough for that.  I've since tried to alter enemy scrips to give more chances to learn significant stuff, like changing various instances of Fire 3 to enemies using Nafoi instead.)

Speaking of tweaks, one such one I made was giving Tir Ice 3 (learned via his ultimate weapon, which now serves a slightly more significant purpose by extension!).  This gives him SOME form of offense, if significantly worse than his best, against things that resist darkness.  It occurred to me that its a dick move making Tir get totally screwed by Dark resistance and he's one of your best cannons, so I should give him at least a half decent fallback.  Considering that Dark Resistance was not really a hindrance to Tir in his home games (S1, Soul Eater was TECHNICALLY Non-elemental, and in S2, he could use other Runes due to more Rune slots, so he had potential fallback options), felt like it wasn't really hurting the mold of his character (and he can learn the level 2's as is, so he does have Elemental Variety mid game, just yeah, stuff like FIre 2 aint gonna last the entire game.)
Why Ice 3?  Well...
A. Outside of Terra and ONE Summon (Zero), Ice is an under-represented Element.
B. Tir's only B (relative to all his Cs...and his A in Darkness) in Suikoden 2 was Water, which in Suiko-verse, covers Ice spells for offense...at least from S3 and on but shut up!
C. Tir already has Silent Lake, so clearly he already HAS a Water/Flowing Rune!  <_< >_> (and the fact that he can use Healing from Materia is further proof that HE HAS SOME FORM OF WATER RUNE IN MF6!)

He also got Drain added to his skillset (learned from Dragon Fang Staff), just for the whole Darkness Rune thing, as well as a nod to Suiko 4 where the Instant Death became Parasitic Healing.  No, doesn't really do much to make him better or anything, just an added bonus that felt appropriate to his skill set.

Tl;dr: No to changing skillsets around on characters (beyond minor tweaks within the skillsets themselves), no to changing animations cause I like them how they are, and no to changing Blitz inputs!
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2010, 05:02:57 AM »
I'm not changing the characters on the fundamental level; gameplay wise, I'm not fucking with MF6 as its been handled delicately thus far.  Outside of a few minor tweaks, the characters are not changing.  So yeah, you can forget THAT idea.

Yuri using Blitzes works anyway cause half the animations/effects were already well crafted to him, especially since the Blitz user was Sabin who also was a Fist Fighter much like Yuri! 

Changing Blitz inputs is a bad idea, though; I made them with the idea of Blitz inputs being remembered (sans...For Everyone, a Blitz Input even I can't remember cause well, I NEVER USE SPIRALER, and half the time, I don't even get Sabin high enough level to learn it, so I never had a reason to care!)  And yeah, Snow's right; Blitz inputs are easy on a keyboard if you know some tricks (double tapping is the big one, since it allows you to bypass diagonals, which is the big Keyboard problem.)

Fayt's handled well enough in a way that I like.  He starts the game kind of weak (just like SO3), gets much better starting midgame, when Multi-jump starts kicking in, which is akin to when he starts getting ACTUAL MOVES ala Side Kick.  Never gets really bad after that, always remaining fairly competent.  It apparently ended up working nicely just going with the idea of "Better weapons to use Jump with!"  as well as a few gimmick options (He's the only character who can use Levantine *AND* X-fight at the same time, leading to a Valiant Knife-like scenario.)

I dunno, Ciato's assessment apparently has stated that, beyond some tweaking, it sounds like the characters are reasonably well balanced and representative of themselves.  Things that are hard to work around are stuff like Rolf who by nature, is tough to make work well due to the variety of factors involved (in that he CAN end up good, but there's no guarantee that someone will use him enough for that.  I've since tried to alter enemy scrips to give more chances to learn significant stuff, like changing various instances of Fire 3 to enemies using Nafoi instead.)

Speaking of tweaks, one such one I made was giving Tir Ice 3 (learned via his ultimate weapon, which now serves a slightly more significant purpose by extension!).  This gives him SOME form of offense, if significantly worse than his best, against things that resist darkness.  It occurred to me that its a dick move making Tir get totally screwed by Dark resistance and he's one of your best cannons, so I should give him at least a half decent fallback.  Considering that Dark Resistance was not really a hindrance to Tir in his home games (S1, Soul Eater was TECHNICALLY Non-elemental, and in S2, he could use other Runes due to more Rune slots, so he had potential fallback options), felt like it wasn't really hurting the mold of his character (and he can learn the level 2's as is, so he does have Elemental Variety mid game, just yeah, stuff like FIre 2 aint gonna last the entire game.)
Why Ice 3?  Well...
A. Outside of Terra and ONE Summon (Zero), Ice is an under-represented Element.
B. Tir's only B (relative to all his Cs...and his A in Darkness) in Suikoden 2 was Water, which in Suiko-verse, covers Ice spells for offense...at least from S3 and on but shut up!
C. Tir already has Silent Lake, so clearly he already HAS a Water/Flowing Rune!  <_< >_> (and the fact that he can use Healing from Materia is further proof that HE HAS SOME FORM OF WATER RUNE IN MF6!)

He also got Drain added to his skillset (learned from Dragon Fang Staff), just for the whole Darkness Rune thing, as well as a nod to Suiko 4 where the Instant Death became Parasitic Healing.  No, doesn't really do much to make him better or anything, just an added bonus that felt appropriate to his skill set.

Tl;dr: No to changing skillsets around on characters (beyond minor tweaks within the skillsets themselves), no to changing animations cause I like them how they are, and no to changing Blitz inputs!

Well, at least it sounds like you actually considered my ideas before dismissing them this time. >.>;;

I can understand not wanting to drastically change skillsets, that is indeed a lot of work for perhaps little payoff.

However, while the animations are pretty good, as an artist I can't be satisfied with a blanket 'no' to all animation changes, so I would appreciate it if you could at least consider any future animation changes I propose.

Still think changing Blitz inputs isn't a bad idea, and I would appreciate some elaboration on why keeping them how they are is in any way a boon to the game or even thematically appropriate. Simplified Blitz inputs would at least differentiate Yuri from being so much of a Sabin recolor. Since the Blitz mechanic is so uniquely Sabin-ish, making them much simpler would take some of focus off of the time spent inputting the Blitz, and more focus on the actual changes you made to the Blitz skillset to make it resemble Yuri's skillset and build.

Edit: Note to self so that I don't forget - Download this utility when you're free from work. No frills but less hassle for simple tile-editing. http://www.romhacking.net/utils/109/
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 05:04:44 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2010, 05:17:47 AM »
What sort of inputs for Yuri would you propose, Djinn?

I'd support changing them if they're really simple, I think.

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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2010, 05:45:25 AM »
Hmm... Eight Blitzes?

-> -> A Blitz1
<- <- A Blitz2
^  ^  A Blitz3
v   v  A Blitz4

-> -> X A Blitz5
<- <- X A Blitz6
^  ^  X A Blitz7
v   v   X A Blitz8


Something like that would be my recommendation. Easy to input and easy to remember, and not so short as to cause input problem either.

Grefter

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2010, 08:44:31 AM »
For those having trouble doing diagonal inputs in ZSnes, you want to setup unique diagonal keys and use the numpad  for directions (Unless for some reason you feel the need to keep wasd for emulation, then you are weird and on your own).  Don't hold buttons just tap around in a circle 478963214 in a smooth motion and you won't have an issue doing blitzes.
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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2010, 08:50:41 AM »
No Numpad on my laptop... ;_;

Grefter

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2010, 08:56:48 AM »
kiop;/.,k instead then.

Edit - aqwedcxza also works I guess.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
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Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2010, 04:01:48 PM »
Or just do the double tap strategy.  Its been proven to work 100% of the time.

So take Aura Bolt for example.  Instead of the usual Hadoken to the Left Presses, just do Down Down Left. 
Or for Fire Dance? Left Left Down Right Right

I'd rather not change Blitz inputs cause people actually remember them, and many people do not have problems with them once they learn of "Double Tap."  Having a Laptop is no excuse in this case since yes, it means you can't do Grefter's idea, but I just proposed an alternative that proves successful and completely bypasses the diagonal scenario entirely.

Basically...no, I'm not changing Blitzes.  MF6 has enough new stuff as is, changing Yuri's attacks, even if simple, is just one extra thing to remember and would only further complicate things.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #97 on: July 16, 2010, 04:04:46 PM »
I played MF6 on my lappy and it works. I think it would be nice for the non-FF6 nerds to point out somewhere in the game that this works; I had to have it explained to me.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #98 on: July 16, 2010, 04:12:05 PM »
I can easily make a simple note of it in the game (or at least, attached to a Readme file which I can direct too, if I feel it needs to be more in depth), just to get the idea out there.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

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Re: Meeple Fantasy 6
« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2010, 04:51:58 PM »
Finished Virginia's sprite. Now in Palette 3 so that her in-battle and world-map sprites are the same color!

I'm personally fond of her 'Tough Guy' pose (Row 4, Column 1). I have her brandishing her gats all gangsta-like.