Meeple Fantasy 6

[Meeplelard]

Finished Virginia's sprite. Now in Palette 3 so that her in-battle and world-map sprites are the same color!

I'm personally fond of her 'Tough Guy' pose (Row 4, Column 1). I have her brandishing her gats all gangsta-like.

NO! ITS NOT! You didn't actually fix it, you just made it worse.  I had already fixed it such that her out of battle sprite and in battle one matched up (it just required NOT loading a file before Thamasa, cause of how the game treats it.)  What wasn't working was some of her plot sprites, and the Save Menu ones.  I told you not to do ambitious things cause you didn't know what's what, and scenarios like this will occur.

Fixing it won't be easy cause I had to ask someone specifically to find that spot and tell me what it is, someone I do NOT have contact with anymore.

Also, not fond of the Guns in the sprite now, mostly cause of how the game uses that sprite, it really just doesn't fit.  Its not really a "Tough Girl" sprite, but an angry one.  Typically used as such too; the guns just look awkward.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I think it'll be fine. Just let me play with it until I have it all worked out. You're always so quick to assume the worst.

Also, you should tell me when you've made such edits to things like palettes, especially since I've specifically asked you about stuff like this before.

If you would tell me what you've actually done instead of just giving me vague warnings like 'don't do anything ambitious!', I'll bet this would go a lot more smoothly.

[Meeplelard]

No, actually, I told you EXPLICITLY in chat "Do not swap the palettes."  I remember having this conversation with you.  You were asking cause you wanted to do this very thing, I said "Don't do this.  The way palettes work, its not going to fix anything."  When I say "Don't do it", I didn't mean "Play around til it works!"  This was before I said the ambitious statement.

Either way, I told you not to do something, and you did it anyway.  Whatever the reason, you shouldn't jump to assumptions like "Oh, it'll be better, so he'll approve."  I know I told you "Don't mess with swapping palettes", so the reason should be irrelevant.  Banking on the "you were vague" won't work here cause I remember what I said, and told you not to mess around with things.  I thought I made it clear "Only work on sprites and nothing else."  Changing Palettes around is obviously something else.

And regarding the gun thing...I dunno; it looks like you're trying to be a little too cute and it doesn't really look good.  The whole "Gangsta" thing doesn't even really fit her as a character.  Virginia wasn't one to flaunt her ARMs out unless she explicitly meant to use them. That's kind of what she was explicitly taught in fact and one of the bases behind her character; only use her ARMs to protect others, not threaten or harm.  Its a minor detail, but it does kind of contradict and its more one of those "Oh look, its cool!" things that I'm just not really fond of.

Heck, of the 4 PCs, Virginia is the ONLY character to keep her ARMs out of sight in battle until she uses them; granted, being Pistols means the whole "Quick Draw" thing is a lot more viable than the other larger, heavier, more technical guns (probably the logic why she's game best speed) but the fact remains that she rarely takes her ARMs out for instances where she's not using them, and I'd prefer to reflect this.  Her angry/tough/etc. moments in WA3 generally involved her having more of a "Get tense" or "Steadfast stance" type reaction, and I'd prefer to reflect this.  You were always talking about how characters needed more nuances to reflect themselves, rather than just look like altered FF6 sprites...

Well, here's a case where an action being taken actually detracts from the character, not works with it.  Its trying to add a dimension to Virginia, perse, that is unlike her, and that should be a good indicator why not to do it.

Now what WOULD be cool, regarding her ARMs?  If you changed her "ready" position to include them, most notably in the Cross-shot manner she holds her guns.  That would be pretty neat, and I always liked the way Virginia fired her guns in WA3.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Virginia: I didn't figure you'd react so strongly to the 'brandishing her gats all gangsta-like' line so much. In actuality, I made her sprite holding her guns in an attempt to replicate her most well-known character art, not to make her gun-happy.
 


>.>;;


Palettes: Look, I know you don't care about what the NPCs look like, but I want to edit some of the NPC sprites and make them all look better as a whole, which will make MF6 look a little more professional overall. This requires changing some palettes, and I have all the necessary knowledge to make this work from a clean FF6 rom, the only thing I need from you is what you've changed in MF6, and then both the PCs and NPCs will look nice. And looking nice is the only thing I'm trying to do for you and your game here.

[Meeplelard]

So wait, you took a calm, placid, happy shot where she's holding one gun and applied it to a Tough girl Angry shot?  There's an obvious logical inconsistency here <_<.  Either way, she never does anything like that in game; the shot really feels like a "We want the guns to look like this" and not much else.

So really, I don't get what the point is, and honestly I personally completely forgot that shot existed, and it doesn't really represent her well at all.  It really does look kind of awkward, and silly, and again, your reasoning behind it kind of contradicts the logic applied, let alone I don't think anyone would put two and two together, since its not that famous an art shot.

Its also a bit of a jump to say "Her most famous art" cause WA3 had a lot of in game art shown for character dialog, so...

---

I don't have the info you want to change all that, cause as I said, I got it from someone who I no longer have contact with (or alternatively, others who WOULD have this info), so you can really just forget about me getting it back, and I can't tell you exactly what I changed.  You're asking for things that I can't supply, and while trying to make this hack more "professional", somethings just aren't reasonable.  Again, this is why I don't want you changing stuff without double checking with me first.

A lot of this info was lost when my hard drive crashed; I was lucky enough to salvage the amount I did.  Basically, the resources you want just don't exist anymore, and you might as well just back out.

[DjinnAndTonic]

So wait, you took a calm, placid, happy shot where she's holding one gun and applied it to a Tough girl Angry shot?  There's an obvious logical inconsistency here <_<.  Either way, she never does anything like that in game; the shot really feels like a "We want the guns to look like this" and not much else.

It was mostly because that particular pose isn't used in very many places. For a lot of the sprites, changing them to reflect the new character's personality would effect how certain animations look in story/battle, but this pose is used rarely, though memorably, so I wanted to put something Virginia-ish into it.

So really, I don't get what the point is, and honestly I personally completely forgot that shot existed, and it doesn't really represent her well at all.

It's the image you ripped for her portrait in MF6... >.>;; I also believe it's her character art for the DL.

---

I don't have the info you want to change all that, cause as I said, I got it from someone who I no longer have contact with (or alternatively, others who WOULD have this info), so you can really just forget about me getting it back, and I can't tell you exactly what I changed.  You're asking for things that I can't supply, and while trying to make this hack more "professional", somethings just aren't reasonable.  Again, this is why I don't want you changing stuff without double checking with me first.

A lot of this info was lost when my hard drive crashed; I was lucky enough to salvage the amount I did.  Basically, the resources you want just don't exist anymore, and you might as well just back out.

You don't need to have every little bit of notation, I know how the palettes work well enough that I can do the hex-editing myself. I just need to know the general gist of what you did, and I can reverse-engineer it back to how the original FF6 programming was.

[Meeplelard]

It was mostly because that particular pose isn't used in very many places. For a lot of the sprites, changing them to reflect the new character's personality would effect how certain animations look in story/battle, but this pose is used rarely, though memorably, so I wanted to put something Virginia-ish into it.

Its not Virginia-ish though; it looks like she's taunting, which is something she didn't do (Maya did it all the damn time, and Maya's suppose to be Ginny's polar opposite in many ways, to give you an idea.)  And she does go into the pose in...just half the scene's she's in.  You'd be surprised how often Relm donned her 'Angry' pose.  It really does look out of character for her to be looking that way, and "resembling" that art shot would make ti look REALLY AWKWARD considering when its used.

It's the image you ripped for her portrait in MF6... >.>;; I also believe it's her character art for the DL.

It is, but that still says little, especially since half the images that use that are cropped and cut out her guns.  I believe I just grabbed a cropped version and used that.  The point is, you're just labeling it "Her most famous image" when you have no basis behind it.

Its a bad reason to jump behind that anyway.  Again, the fact that I completely forgot the image was used DESPITE using it in MF6 is telling, and its hardly reflective of Virginia as is.  Keep the guns out of that shot.

You don't need to have every little bit of notation, I know how the palettes work well enough that I can do the hex-editing myself. I just need to know the general gist of what you did, and I can reverse-engineer it back to how the original FF6 programming was.

Which is what I don't have?  The amount of shit changed is all over the place, and simply making it from a "clean rom" isn't reasonable, and you're randomly assuming its going to be easy.  The number of stuff I've had to reference, cross reference, what have you, even for simply getting palettes to work right, was a lot.  Again, this task you're asking isn't reasonable, and that's why I held back on explaining everything.  I really get the impression you assume its a simple case of "Check a few values, alter them!", but that's NOT what's gonna happen, as that's not how it works.

Again, you're asking for resources about info that doesn't exist anymore.  I can't provide what isn't there.

[DjinnAndTonic]

It was mostly because that particular pose isn't used in very many places. For a lot of the sprites, changing them to reflect the new character's personality would effect how certain animations look in story/battle, but this pose is used rarely, though memorably, so I wanted to put something Virginia-ish into it.

Its not Virginia-ish though; it looks like she's taunting, which is something she didn't do (Maya did it all the damn time, and Maya's suppose to be Ginny's polar opposite in many ways, to give you an idea.)  And she does go into the pose in...just half the scene's she's in.  You'd be surprised how often Relm donned her 'Angry' pose.  It really does look out of character for her to be looking that way, and "resembling" that art shot would make ti look REALLY AWKWARD considering when its used.

...Okay. I can understand your concern. If you really think it detracts, then I'll take the guns out.

It is, but that still says little, especially since half the images that use that are cropped and cut out her guns.  I believe I just grabbed a cropped version and used that.  The point is, you're just labeling it "Her most famous image" when you have no basis behind it.

You pick weird things to argue about. Type 'Virginia Maxwell' in GIS and see what comes up... >.>;;

Which is what I don't have?  The amount of shit changed is all over the place, and simply making it from a "clean rom" isn't reasonable, and you're randomly assuming its going to be easy.  The number of stuff I've had to reference, cross reference, what have you, even for simply getting palettes to work right, was a lot.  Again, this task you're asking isn't reasonable, and that's why I held back on explaining everything.  I really get the impression you assume its a simple case of "Check a few values, alter them!", but that's NOT what's gonna happen, as that's not how it works.

Just tell me what you do remember, then. Specifically about any palette changing you did with a hex editor. I'm not intending to make 'changes all over the place', just trying to make your NPC and menu sprites look as they are intended.

[Meeplelard]

Just tell me what you do remember, then. Specifically about any palette changing you did with a hex editor. I'm not intending to make 'changes all over the place', just trying to make your NPC and menu sprites look as they are intended.

And I've told you HOW many times? I don't know! I don't remember what I changed.  I don't know what I did change; this was done a while ago, and I was walked through.

Again, I can't emphasize this enough: You're dealing with things that involve resources that don't exist anymore.  What you asked for is one of the big major things I can't provide at all.

[Shale]

You pick weird things to argue about. Type 'Virginia Maxwell' in GIS and see what comes up... >.>;;

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Just tell me what you do remember, then. Specifically about any palette changing you did with a hex editor. I'm not intending to make 'changes all over the place', just trying to make your NPC and menu sprites look as they are intended.

And I've told you HOW many times? I don't know! I don't remember what I changed.  I don't know what I did change; this was done a while ago, and I was walked through.

To be fair, you haven't told me anything but a blanket 'I don't know, someone helped me.' I didn't realize that you were walked through the process so much that you didn't know anything at all about what you were doing. You could also provide me with whatever information you -do- know. Such as... which sprites did you alter palettes for? (I suspect just Setzer and Relm, but..) Or... who helped you in the first place? It may be possible to find him or someone who knows the same information he does. Did you use a hex editor for all these changes? Which hex editor? Did you run it through FF3se first? Where did the problems occur such that it made decide you needed to get an elaborate fix like this?

Again, I can't emphasize this enough: You're dealing with things that involve resources that don't exist anymore.  What you asked for is one of the big major things I can't provide at all.

I'm not asking for a translated data table, just what you -do- know. I realize you don't know much about what I specifically want, but if you tell me the details you -do- know, I can find what I need to fix.

[Meeplelard]

EDITTED TO NOT SOUND LIKE A COMPLETE AND TOTAL ASS.  APOLOGIES IF YOU READ THIS BEFORE.

Djinn, I'm sorry, but I'm simply just asking you to just drop it, and back out of your recent change.  I know you're proud of your actions and think its good, but what you did actually had negative side effects and I can't get you what you need to reverse this.  Shit happens, unfortunately, and there's not much you can do about it. 

So we can either go around circularly and get nowhere, as we have been doing in the last few posts, or you can simply just back up and try to find some other solution that doesn't go against my instructions.  It sucks, I know, but I had already taken steps to work around your concern (same goes for Vyse), and you took steps that completely reversed those actions.  What you're asking isn't a simple manner, and the solution isn't something I can simply provide.

It sounds like a simple request, but there's more to it than that, and I really don't want to get into the specifics.  In fact, I remember reading an entire document on why changing things to that depth, and explained how its not a simple solution.  What you're requesting just isn't as simple as a few Hex Edit changes and combined with the fact that I did this a few years back means I don't have full memory of what I did anyway.  It wasn't a simple task though.

I just can't stress this enough, and again, you can ask as many times as you want, but I'll keep producing the same answer.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I appreciate that you want to keep things simple for me, I do. But this is something that I'm interested in learning about anyway. Also, there's been a lot more information about event editing shared since you made these changes, so it's not as scary and mysterious to me as you think.

Your comparison of this problem to Gold in a Copper Mine is pretty off. Considering that I'm trying to change something back to what it was before you changed it, a more appropriate comparison would be trying to find Gold in a Gold mine where someone tossed a bunch of Copper all over the place to throw you off. Clearly it is not impossible to find what I'm looking for, and your good-hearted attempts to keep things simple is just making the process of fixing it more time-consuming.

I'll try to be more specific with what I'm asking, then.

Who walked you through the event editor? On what site did you meet this person?

What sprites have you done palette editing for? Did you use a hex editor or some other program?

Did you do any other event editing besides palettes?

What was the original problem that caused you to seek help to fix it in the first place? Which sprites displayed with the wrong palette (World map? Town maps? Plot scenes? Battle sprites?) ?

How long ago did you make the changes? Did this affect any other (non-NPC/PC) graphics (such as monsters, spell effects or map tiles)?

If you can't remember, that's fine, but can you estimate about how many events you edited the palettes for?

[Meeplelard]

Who walked you through the event editor? On what site did you meet this person?

Someone on a message board and I can't even give you his name.  It was someone whose name I don't even recognize if I see it.  Note this message board doesn't even exist anymore.  I've even checked other forums that mentioned the board and they say "Sadly, it seems to have died, and the info it had is basically all gone."

What sprites have you done palette editing for? Did you use a hex editor or some other program?

Just Ginny and Vyse.

Did you do any other event editing besides palettes?

Bum Rush, a few triggers here and there that I can't remember.  Basically, I actually changed stuff, and it really is not as easy as it sounds, as you have to know exactly what you're doing.

What was the original problem that caused you to seek help to fix it in the first place? Which sprites displayed with the wrong palette (World map? Town maps? Plot scenes? Battle sprites?) ?

I can't remember since it was a long time ago, but I did check and the info still isn't easily accessible.  You claim "New info since I last worked on it!" but truth, I'm finding all the same stuff that is there, and I'm finding that things that USE to exist don't anymore (one was this big hacking resource; you click on a link...you get a non-existent URL.)

How long ago did you make the changes? Did this affect any other (non-NPC/PC) graphics (such as monsters, spell effects or map tiles)?

I honestly have no clue, but fucking with it is not something you should be doing.

Altering this is a very precise thing, and you really don't want to delve into it.  Again, no new info has actually been revealed like you claim it has; its the same stuff, and its not a simple case of a few pointers.  TO give you an idea, since one example I found...

One instance of Edgar in FF6 is *NOT* Edgar, as far as the event goes.  Its actually Terra, but they give her his Sprite and Palette for the scene.  Why FF6 is programmed this way, I don't know, may have to do with character values and what not, and easier to just alter the sprite/palette for the scenario, then adjust it back, than make a whole script adjusting which character is called upon.

Either way, its a lot of event hacking, and it really is delving into something that one minor futz up could really screw everything up.  This is why I really don't want you getting into it, and why I'd prefer you just didn't.

Do you understand now what I mean by you're asking for resources that don't exist anymore?  Some quite literally have been purged as the forum that this info came from is in the graveyard, the person I talked to I quite literally cannot contact anymore cause I don't remember who it was, and looking for the info myself, I came up with nothing other than "Fix things manually through event hacking."  I once almost screwed the entire game up changing one trigger of redundant useless data (one of those "End event" things used twice in a row), and I was lucky enough to find a way to fix it.  The instance it gets into event hacking, I'm just gonna have to decline the idea, and that's what you're getting into.

Also, unlike Battle Sprites, event, over world, NPC palettes, etc. can't be easily tested, cause of how the game loads data.  So something could seem like its fine (or alternatively, something seem like its not fine), and the reverse is actually true.  That's probably why Ginny seems to be working in your case when in a fresh genuine file, she'll suddenly have a color change that you did not intend.  There's a lot of crap to work with, and I'd really just appreciate you didn't delve into it.  I spent time to rectify a scenario, and you're putting it back into a state that is more likely to have adverse side effects I'd definitely prefer to avoid it.

(Sprites, unlike Palettes, are pretty much exactly as you see on the tin, so if it looks fine in a sprite editor, there's a 99% chance it'll look fine in game.  Its usually animation nuances that are hard to tell, and only trial/error works that away.  Palettes...are a totally different story though)

[DjinnAndTonic]

Okay, I have a few ideas about how to go about fixing it. Yes, it involves playing around in the CA and CB event banks, since I suspect that's the only portion where you had to play around with palettes for Relm and Setzer in the first place (I suppose it's possible that you may have changed their map sprites, but that doesn't seem to be a problem on my end).

Let me give it a try, and if it's really too hard for me to fix, I'll revert to my back-up copy of your masterfile and scrap my changes. You really don't have anything to lose, right?

[Meeplelard]

There is something to lose actually; its the fact that changing stuff can alter stuff elsewhere if done improperly, and it may not be noticed and could have a subtle long term effect, and there's little to actually test in this regard as far as working vs. not working other than play the entire game through, or know the exact part of the game you're changing and testing it there and then.

So its possible you could send me back an unworking rom and I don't know it cause the testing is not as easy as it sounds.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Update to show that I've been actually getting some work done.



Recolored hair, eyes. Coat redrawn. New casting sprite.




Recolored clothes. Redrawn Hair, Patch, Scarf




Recolored dress. Redrawn hair. New sprites all around. Removed the guns, as asked.




Redrawn the bandana. Fixed the outlining on his clothes. Soul Eater rune in the casting sprite is now the correct color.




Yes, that's a textbox in the sprite itself that says "d00d"...




Despite my lack of interest, a recolored Lina!




Man, this one was rough. Took forever, but I'm mostly pleased with the result. Finished her riding/fallen sprites too.




Foomy. He be bubbles.


I could use these for the the wiki entry on MF6, too.

[Meeplelard]

I appreciate you posting them except...I can't see any of the sprites...at all.  Is this just me or are others having this problem too?

[superaielman]

Just you.

[OblivionKnight]

The irony that Meeple can't see the sprites for his own patch >_>

Anyway...those look awesome.  Can't even tell (with the exception of Celes...er...Lina, and I don't even know what she looks like normally, so that may be appropriate!) that they were originally FF6 sprites.  The Prinny and Lenneth in particular are badass.  Niiiiiiiiice!

[Meeplelard]

Most of those look fine, but I still really don't like that Virginia "angry" sprite.  It looks silly, awkward, and kind of out of character (why would she be flexing her muscle like that?).  I know you removed the guns but...I dunno, it just looks off.  Something I don't really seem fond of myself.

[Yakumo]

Looks more like she's shaking her fist at something to me, but hey.  Though... where's her other arm? <_<

[OblivionKnight]

It's Djinni - do you REALLY want to know where that other arm is?

[Luther Lansfeld]

I personally think it's cute and kind of sassy. I like it.

[Scar]

One of these days I'd like to try out this game, but it always seems to be getting better and I really want to try out a finished or the best version out.

By the way, I dig the new sprites!