Season 42, Week 4 - Girls' club in Godlike, boys' club in Heavy? Sexists.

[cloudstrifesheart]

I thought Shadow's dog Interceptor had quite a bit of intelligence

[ThePiggyman]

Wow, these debates are persistent. First the element debate, then the summoning legality (is that a word?) debate. Regardless, that's why I like this place.

[BaconForTheSoul]

ID, you can't just take half of your own definition.

BETWEEN TWO HUMANS.  Aeons aren't humans.  Do you seriously just argue for the sake of arguing because you enjoy it?  Also, you're using dictionary.com for fucking RPG logic.  You also pull out your standard "ignore 90% of what is said and try to counter what you think you can" logic.  That leads into the whole "arguing on internet" thing, which is just tiresome with certain people involved. 

Not to mention that from my understanding Lady becomes OHKO fodder if she can't have support with her, which means you have to fucking vote against her anway?

[Ultradude]

To be fair, there are plenty of non-humans in the DL. Like Suikodogs, Bright, and the Lizard Clan, Peter from Shining Force is a bird, Kiwi is a turtle, we've got plenty of demi-humans, gods, demons, angels, etc.

EDIT: Assuming people wish to bring semantics into the debate.

[InfinityDragon]

The post that you picked apart so relentlessly that you quoted one small sub-paragraph three times up until that kind of argues against you here, y'know.

What? No it doesn't. It means I went into detail until I reached the "NOES WHY ARE YUNA HATERS SO LOUD AND MEAN ;.;!!" rant, at which point I stopped because that looked like a rant and not an argument.

Also, to obfuscate, one must not be arguing another person's points at the time. It took me a while to get past your points to get to mine. ^_^

What? No. Dictionaries are your friend. Use them.

Yeah, swordsmanship has no draw from a sword's power. Not even legendary blades like Dual Blade.

Whee...did you even read my entire point about swords and equipment falling under the scope of someone's power? Unless of course you don't think ownership entails power, in which case I'll point at you and laugh.

Um dead Aeons stay dead. I know, you didn't think you could kill them if you tried, but they're dead. You know. Like on the PC end? So there's a full gameplay explanation there as well, proving that they were staying consistant.

Which still boils down to the fact that this is evidence that the summoning of Aeons is something that is not entirely within Yuna's complete control. If Yuna could summon wherever and whenever she wanted, she'd be able to summon an Aeon that was just recently killed off. Such is not the case.

So like all those Summons Rydia uses, if you're exactly right.

You're exactly right! If all you look at is plot. Whoops.

Unless you can point me to a gameplay restriction that Rydia has on summoning that I'm unaware of.

The summon is a power granted by the Fayth. It can only exist with the Fayth still existing, but that seems to be the only direct link.

How nice of you to gloss over the entire problem with your claim that Aeon's are under Yuna's sole dominion: it's a power granted by the Fayth and can only be used when the Fayth is still in existence. This means Yuna requires the Fayth to summon. This means the Fayth has a role in the summoning. This means the summoning relies on both the Fayth AND Yuna. This means Yuna does not have full control over the summoning.

and most importantly their body can never exist in and of it's self. They require a summoner to ever be manifest as a summon.

The flipside to that is Yuna requires the Fayth to summon. The Aeon requires both. This means an Aeon is not a manifestation of Yuna's power alone. Seriously, it's not that hard a concept to grasp and understand.

Unique, in your terms, means there's only one of something, right?

No, by unique we mean something that is limited to a certain person, since we usually refer to the term as "unique to xxxx." You can get more than one Royal Sword in BoF3, but the weapon is still unique to Ryu, for example.

But there's only one summon with Yuna's statistics. Ever.

That doesn't mean Aeons are unique to Yuna, only that Yuna is more proficient with them. It's much like how a Skull Trap cast by a level 20 caster in BG2 does much more damage than a Skull Trap cast by a level 1 caster. The spell isn't unique to anyone, although the end-effects are going to be different between users.

So...how is this not even more unique by your view? Her summons have her own names, which, even if you don't rename them, are different from any others. They "look the same", much like a storebought sword. They have some plot about their own will, but so do True Runes.

All true, except when it comes down to it, if Summoner X has Aeon Y summoned, Summoner Z cannot summon Aeon Y. Thus, an Aeon is not unique to any particular summoner. All the above are cosmetic changes that have no impact on gameplay at all.

Certainly, you can say "but you can't summon two of them to fight each other", but that's all you can say. The game never says why. There are good, logical reasons for this. Maybe it's considered unfair in gameplay. Maybe it's a certain type of Pyreflies. Maybe, maybe, maybe, who knows, the point is you're writing your own plot to explain this.

The summoning restriction is huge, you can't just turn a blind eye to it and pretend it doesn't exist. It ultimately means Aeons are not unique to Yuna. No ifs, ands, or buts. You can't just try to hand wave it away because it makes no sense from a plot perspective BECAUSE WE DON'T BASE DL LEGALITY PRIMARILY ON PLOT. You can add assumptions, but those assumptions are going to be largely unfounded, have little weight, and therefore will be less parsimonious than claiming that Aeons are not unique because an Aeon cannot be in two places at the same time. You, and all who support Yuna summoning Aeons, are the ones coming up with plot based justifications as to why this restriction should not apply to the DL.

Also, the most ironic part is, Yuna is the sole wielder, as far as we know of, of Yojimbo, Anima and the Magus Sisters on Spira, at game end, assuming you get them all. Belgemine, the only person we ever see with the Sisters, is sent. Seymour is killed, so there goes Anima. Yojimbo is never seen wielded by anyone but Belgemine as well. So even this point doesn't actually justify banning them all, merely the non-optionals.

Except, as I stated in the previous thread, we don't look at the timeline's endpoint in games. In the DL, Isaaru, Daena, Belgemine, and Seymour would *all* have a claim to being able to summon in the DL. Thus, all Aeons would be shared between them, making them non-unique and illegal. It doesn't matter if they're ranked or not, only that if they were ranked, that they would cause something to be non-unique and illegal in the DL.

We've established that taking hits for you and having a seperate lifebar isn't enough for this conversation, for...some reason...I'm not really sure why people never just bite the bullet, if they dislike Aeons so much, and just ban everything remotely similar. I mean, if you hate Aeons as a concept so much, why not other transformations...?

There's no need to go that far. Yuna's Aeons push and break the line that determines where one character's power stops and and another character's power begins. No character is even remotely close to Yuna when it comes to this problem.

Ah, but Ryu 4 and 5 basically are.

"Basically" doesn't cut it. Either you are or you aren't.

4's own have seperate lifebars, seperate bodies for the full transformation, seperate movesets, everything, the only change is that his own body is manifesting them.

Seperate lifebars is the only thing on that list that remotely matters, and alone it isn't near enough to equate BoF4 dragon forms with Aeons. There are no separate bodies. There are no separate movelists (everything Ryu has learned he can still use); he only gains new abilities. Your last point cuts against your argument, but it admittedly has little weight since it's a plot argument only.

3, I'll admit, maybe I haven't looked over 3 in a while, but IIRC Genes are crystallized Chrysm(Remains of other dragons) and granting him power directly, barring the dragon forms he gets other ways(Oh, there's Shadow, Fusion and Kaiser in there, I forgot those.). So he's borrowing the power of dead dragons to change into them.

Mostly incorrect. Chrysm is the fossilized remains of dragons, yes, but those aren't genes. Genes are are the inherent dragon abilities Ryu already possesses. The Chrysm is just the knowledge of how to access that potential. As such, the chrysm Ryu discovers isn't lending him any power at all or giving Ryu a new body to take over, it's just knowledge of how to access a particular form or trait.

ID, you can't just take half of your own definition.

Common sense is such a rare commodity here.

Yes, technically a duel would be between two people...because monsters and Aeons and pixies and fairies and elves and dragons do not exist and thus would be extraneous and pointless to add to the definition. Expanding the definition to include more than just humans does not change the fundamental definition of "duel" at all. Changing the definition to say "a prearranged battle between one person and a party of 10 people" *would* be changing the fundamental definition.

Do you seriously just argue for the sake of arguing because you enjoy it?

Wow! Finally! Someone may actually be catching on!

You also pull out your standard "ignore 90% of what is said and try to counter what you think you can" logic.

Perhaps that's a clue that you should make your arguments more concise and less rant-like? Or perhaps make your arguments less redundant? I'll only address new points. If you type X=1 fifty times, I'm only going to respond to the first instance and will ignore the rest. Likewise, if you bury your main argument in a big rant, it'll be less clear if that's actually your argument and I'll be less likely to address it.

Not to mention that from my understanding Lady becomes OHKO fodder if she can't have support with her, which means you have to fucking vote against her anway?

If you had bothered to read what I'd said earlier, I haven't played SH3 and I likely *wouldn't* allow her the Malice Umbral.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Again, focussing on the one point that I made to ID already. (You didn't respond, I can repost it if you want.)

Whee...did you even read my entire point about swords and equipment falling under the scope of someone's power?

So what's the difference between an aeon and a sword, anyway?

Yuna can't summon Ifrit at the same time as Isaaru? Ohnoes, Chaz can't use the Elsydeon at the same time as Rolf, etc. It never has and never will matter in the DL. Hell, the DL ranks characters who can't even EXIST at the same time, like Fei and Id.

Aeons are somewhat sentient? So's the Star Dragon Sword. In fact it's notably moreso, since it can quite clearly contradict the wishes of its owner in ways that non-Yojimo/Sisters aeons don't seem capable of doing.

[Meeplelard]

Yuna can't summon Ifrit at the same time as Isaaru? Ohnoes, Chaz can't use the Elsydeon at the same time as Rolf, etc. It never has and never will matter in the DL. Hell, the DL ranks characters who can't even EXIST at the same time, like Fei and Id.

Nitpicking, but Rolf never used Elsydeon (...outside of MF6.)  Nei Sword is an entirely different sword altogether and what not.
Of course, not the point, just felt like doing it before someone else tried to counter argue by saying its fallacious due to it (though, on a side note, if you change Rolf to Alis, the statement about Elsydeon remains true since IIRC, Elsydeon is suppose to be the Laconian Sword of PS1)

EDIT: Of course, thinking on it, I think Odin can use the PS1 Laconian Sword too, for all that its inferior to the Laconian Axe, therefore being useless for him in these purposes, but that's a different can of worms altogether...though him having access to the Laconian Sword still kind of matters for Chaz's thing, I guess.

[InfinityDragon]

Yuna can't summon Ifrit at the same time as Isaaru? Ohnoes, Chaz can't use the Elsydeon at the same time as Rolf, etc.

Rolf and Chaz are in the same game? That's news to me.

It never has and never will matter in the DL.

Oh? Okay. Excuse me while I re-evaluate FFT's rankings since everyone can use Excalibur now. Sarcasm aside, this is precisely HOW we determine whether a particular item/ability/etc is unique to a character or not. So yes, it does matter in the DL and in fact has incredible importance to the DL.

Aeons are somewhat sentient? So's the Star Dragon Sword. In fact it's notably moreso, since it can quite clearly contradict the wishes of its owner in ways that non-Yojimo/Sisters aeons don't seem capable of doing.

I'd ban the SDS as well if I could. Given S2's weapon system, however, that would be problematic and not worth it in the end. SDS largely doesn't matter anyways; all it gives to Viktor from a gameplay perspective is a decent weapon to hit things with. It's Uber Undead Destroying Skillz (tm) have zero gameplay impact.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Rolf and Chaz are in the same game? That's news to me.

Hiro and Ghaleon. Nicholai and Karin. Rose and Lloyd. Melfice and Ryudo. Getting away purely from swords... S5's multiple Twilight Rune users. Hect and Alfina's Armageddon. Zieg/Dart, Shana/Miranda, Graham/Lavitz/Albert, Doel/Haschel, etc. sharing their dragoon powers.

Sarcasm aside, this is precisely HOW we determine whether a particular item/ability/etc is unique to a character or not.

You mean, we use gameplay and if a PC is the only PC who can use something at a given point (endgame / when they leave if a temp), we allow it? Because that does indeed seem to be precisely how we judge things. Also makes Yuna pretty legal because bosses being able to use things never makes them illegal for a PC. Ever. See above examples, you've played enough games to know there are many more.

[SageAcrin]

What? No. Dictionaries are your friend. Use them.

1.   to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2.   to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3.   to darken.

Well, lessee. I didn't confuse you, bewilder you, or stupefy you...or maybe that's what you mean? If so, tell me in what area my manner of speaking does it and I'll try to fix it.

The information was entirely pertinent to other points you made, and I was answering said points before getting to mine.

And the forum's already black with white text and I didn't change the color.

So...maybe that's why you didn't post the definition in big red letters this time.

Still, perhaps not. If so, I will do my best to make sure I do not obfuscate with my own irrelevancies and confuse the issue, this time! ^_^

Whee...did you even read my entire point about swords and equipment falling under the scope of someone's power? Unless of course you don't think ownership entails power, in which case I'll point at you and laugh.

I was being sarcastic.

To be clear, I obviously think a person's sword or Dhoulmagus' staff is part of their power.

Which still boils down to the fact that this is evidence that the summoning of Aeons is something that is not entirely within Yuna's complete control. If Yuna could summon wherever and whenever she wanted, she'd be able to summon an Aeon that was just recently killed off. Such is not the case.

Yeah, mages run out of MP and magic isn't something they created.

Yeah, FF7 characters get some legal initial Materia that just happens to be crystallized souls/planet lifeforce.

Yeah, False Althena channels the power of a god.

Etc.

I made this point before, maybe not being sarcastic this time will make you understand it better? I'm only trying to not obfuscate here.

You're exactly right! If all you look at is plot. Whoops.

Unless you can point me to a gameplay restriction that Rydia has on summoning that I'm unaware of.

Yuna's gameplay restriction has no direct impact on her as a dueller unless she fights someone with a Summoned creature the same as her's.

Tell me, exactly, what you're extrapolating from her limitation that makes it actually matter, please? One that doesn't use the plot of the limitation, optimally.

How nice of you to gloss over the entire problem with your claim that Aeon's are under Yuna's sole dominion: it's a power granted by the Fayth and can only be used when the Fayth is still in existence. This means Yuna requires the Fayth to summon. This means the Fayth has a role in the summoning. This means the summoning relies on both the Fayth AND Yuna. This means Yuna does not have full control over the summoning.

It also means that with all sorts of other abilities I mentioned. Dhoulmagus'/Leopold's staff(Channelled power from Rhapthorne of an indeterminite amount), Yuri's fusions(If nothing else, SR is shown to have a clear intelligence of it's own, to the point where it nearly drives him batshit insane.), Ryu 5's Wyrm, Rydia/Dagger/Eiko's summons, etc.

I didn't gloss over anything. I explained this repeatedly, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough yet. If so, I apologize.

Also, it's a plot argument(As in, there is never any gameplay representation of any of this. Rhapthorne does not, say, use Dhoulmagus' unique moves or anything. Enemy Aeons act totally differently and have different stats and have different names and are pallette swaps and use different moves. So forth.), which somehow you used as a way to refute my earlier comment which was a plot argument.

No, by unique we mean something that is limited to a certain person, since we usually refer to the term as "unique to xxxx." You can get more than one Royal Sword in BoF3, but the weapon is still unique to Ryu, for example.

You know "unique" doesn't work with skills anyways, right?

Your arguments are equipment ones. I don't see people banning Nares because more than one person in PS4 gets it, nor do I see Eiko and Dagger crying miserably because no one allows most of their White Magic.

(Edit: Erm-hem. It...doesn't work with naturally learned or plot obtained skills. Not all skills, obviously. Sorry!)

At any rate, ignoring that, by that logic, there is more than one Aeon, but out of the PC cast, there is only one person that can wield Aeons, which renders it quite safe for legality. What does bosses have to do with equipment? Do people ban dropped equipment from bosses just because the boss used it at one point?

Oh, and there's the fact that Yuna's Aeons still have more unique stats than the aforementioned pile of Royal Swords, though.

That doesn't mean Aeons are unique to Yuna, only that Yuna is more proficient with them. It's much like how a Skull Trap cast by a level 20 caster in BG2 does much more damage than a Skull Trap cast by a level 1 caster.

No, the stats are not linear progression, nor do they use any logical progression, when you compare enemy Aeons to PC ones, and enemy Aeon skills to PC ones, etc.

This is more like Skull Trap randomly turning into Meteor Swarm, complete with name, but having Skull Trap's animation in BG2. Except it's blue. Bit different of an issue there.

All true, except when it comes down to it, if Summoner X has Aeon Y summoned, Summoner Z cannot summon Aeon Y.

True!

(Well, if by "Aeon" you mean "A class of pallette swapped Aeon with a different name that functions fairly similarly in some ways to a PC Aeon of the same class.". Which you do.)

Thus, an Aeon is not unique to any particular summoner.

Logic leap, not necessarily true.

Put it this way.

I have an apple. It is yellow.

You can't find your own apple. It was also red!

I therefore stole your apple. I mean, I have an apple! Sure, it may not look exactly the same, and it has a sticker on it and yours didn't. I could have put that on there, it doesn't mean anything.

This is your logic.

I have a summon.

The enemy cannot summon the summon they have that looks sorta like it.

Therefore, it is the same summon. I mean, it looks a lot like it, even if it's colored different! And it has a different name! Nope, same summon! Obviously.

Logic leap. Simple enough explanation yet? You can't jump to conclusion and expect it to be an ironclad argument.

There may be plenty of other explanations. Maybe pyreflies in an area are elementally aligned and you can't summon the same Aeon-type twice in the same area.

Maybe Spiran summoners have rules about these things and just don't choose to due to wanting a fair and non-prolonged fight.

The point is that the game never says, so you...don't write fanfiction about it to explain it, you just go by what's there. And what's there is a very limited issue indeed, one that can't be applied to other things. Or write fanfiction to explain stuff, I don't care, whatever floats your boat, just don't bawl about us not voting off your fanfiction please?

The summoning restriction is huge, you can't just turn a blind eye to it and pretend it doesn't exist. It ultimately means Aeons are not unique to Yuna. No ifs, ands, or buts. You can't just try to hand wave it away because it makes no sense from a plot perspective BECAUSE WE DON'T BASE DL LEGALITY PRIMARILY ON PLOT. You can add assumptions, but those assumptions are going to be largely unfounded, have little weight, and therefore will be less parsimonious than claiming that Aeons are not unique because an Aeon cannot be in two places at the same time. You, and all who support Yuna summoning Aeons, are the ones coming up with plot based justifications as to why this restriction should not apply to the DL.

See above. I just want to be clear that I don't see anything in this that isn't addressed above. I don't want to obfuscate. Honestly, I do really want to be as clear as possible for you.

Except, as I stated in the previous thread, we don't look at the timeline's endpoint in games. In the DL, Isaaru, Daena, Belgemine, and Seymour would *all* have a claim to being able to summon in the DL. Thus, all Aeons would be shared between them, making them non-unique and illegal. It doesn't matter if they're ranked or not, only that if they were ranked, that they would cause something to be non-unique and illegal in the DL.

See my above comments, again, the ones that began with "You know "unique" doesn't work with skills anyways, right?". Again, I want to make sure I cover all your points, nothing there seems to be not covered beforehand.

Also, there's Elfboy's point about multiple people with Soul Eaters and such, still.

There's no need to go that far. Yuna's Aeons push and break the line that determines where one character's power stops and and another character's power begins. No character is even remotely close to Yuna when it comes to this problem.

Chongara. But that's not important now.

Maybe she is on the forefront of this issue, true, out of ranked characters... but that doesn't mean she's over the line. There's so many reasons I've given why she's not.

The people that are really over the line, like Xorn and Thorn's fused form(I'm sure there's better plot fusions than this on the boss end. Seriously, there's a lot of them.) or Ryu 5, are not ranked, in part because of issues like this.

"Basically" doesn't cut it. Either you are or you aren't.

Irrelevant to the main conversation, so you can skip this(Actually, you can feel free to skip everything past this point, if you just want the main argument.)...

   1. In a basic way; fundamentally or essentially: Throughout the ordeal, he remained basically the same.
   2. For the most part; chiefly: They basically do what they are supposed to.

<_<?

Seperate lifebars is the only thing on that list that remotely matters, and alone it isn't near enough to equate BoF4 dragon forms with Aeons. There are no separate bodies. There are no separate movelists (everything Ryu has learned he can still use); he only gains new abilities. Your last point cuts against your argument, but it admittedly has little weight since it's a plot argument only.

I wasn't talking to you with that. ._. I was explaining to someone else. Obviously we'd just been over the same point, to what I thought was both of our own satisfactions. You said it yourself, you're not even sure on him. I thought.

Anyways, my answer beyond this point is irrelevant. If you want to just stick to the heart of the argument, that's fine. I don't want to obfuscate.

Anyways...he has a seperate skillset that is only accessable through a dragon form. I guess I wasn't clear enough. There are seperate bodies during breath attacks.

Mostly incorrect. Chrysm is the fossilized remains of dragons, yes, but those aren't genes. Genes are are the inherent dragon abilities Ryu already possesses. The Chrysm is just the knowledge of how to access that potential. As such, the chrysm Ryu discovers isn't lending him any power at all or giving Ryu a new body to take over, it's just knowledge of how to access a particular form or trait.

Irrelevant to the original argument, so I don't want to be accused of obfuscation by arguing it. Please, feel free to skip this.

Anyways, I don't recall that being stated in game.

*Whistles, wanders over to GFAQs.*

In fact, it's not, searching the script FAQ. Now, granted, you can argue that it's implied by Ryu randomly going Kaiser...except that the Elder's script says that he's...granting Ryu that power and not unlocking it.

Jono: I give unto you... The very essence of the Brood...The power that can
shake the very foundations of the world... The power of Infinity...

I'll chalk that one up to mistranslation and just say that the game, on average, doesn't seem to say anything to back you up, in any direct fashion.

Manuals may say that. Manuals say and show a lot of wrong things, though, and I don't feel like tracking down a BoF3 manual at any rate. You can prove that one if you'd like.

Wow! Finally! Someone may actually be catching on!

(Irrelevant reply that I'm marking because I want to be clear what parts of my argument are meant to apply as actual argument and which are semi-comedic random banter:)

Arguing because you like to: Good!

Yelling at people because you like to: Not good!

._.

Reasonable arguments can be had by all.

This conversation just never seems to start with one.

Why can't people go "Hey, look, I have an idea. Yuna's Aeons may be illegal for this new and shiny idea. What do you guys all think?" and then we can all discuss it and people don't have to yell and it'll be fun and we can have pie and cheese and ^_^?

[InfinityDragon]

Hiro and Ghaleon.

Plot only.

Rose and Lloyd

Plot only.

Zieg/Dart

Plot only.

...and all the other LoD examples are plot only.

You mean, we use gameplay and if a PC is the only PC who can use something at a given point (endgame / when they leave if a temp), we allow it? Because that does indeed seem to be precisely how we judge things. Also makes Yuna pretty legal because bosses being able to use things never makes them illegal for a PC. Ever. See above examples, you've played enough games to know there are many more.

Why draw such an irrelevant and pointless distinction between PCs and "everyone else"? Sure, you can do it, but it's sloppier. Is there something magical and special about PCs that makes them different than bosses? Other than the obvious, such as choosing their actions/equipment/etc, but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether something is unique to a particular character or not. Now largely this will never matter, considering bosses in most games don't have equipment and have skills/spells that nothing else in the game has. When duplications DO occur, however rarely it may be, there is no sense in waving the duplication away because bosses and PCs are somehow mysteriously different (in fact, if the duplication were to occur, the mechanics between the boss and PC would largely be very similar, making the practice even more of a nonsensical idea).

Well, lessee. I didn't confuse you, bewilder you, or stupefy you...or maybe that's what you mean? If so, tell me in what area my manner of speaking does it and I'll try to fix it.

You didn't obfuscate me you obfuscated your own point. There's a subtle difference.

I was being sarcastic.

Then say you're being sarcastic, because picking up a tone of voice over an internet forum isn't possible.

Yeah, mages run out of MP and magic isn't something they created.

Again, common sense. Learn it. A mage's MP pool depletion rate is largely under the control of the mage, except for the rare MP busting attack which would be an exception to the rule.

Yeah, FF7 characters get some legal initial Materia that just happens to be crystallized souls/planet lifeforce.

Don't look at me. Just like Suikoden Runes, I don't allow starting Materia on FF7 characters, unless it happens to be character unique. Unfortunately for the FF7 cast, there are no character unique Materia.

Yeah, False Althena channels the power of a god.

Plot only.

Yuna's gameplay restriction has no direct impact on her as a dueller unless she fights someone with a Summoned creature the same as her's.

No, it means Aeons are not unique to Yuna and thus DL illegal. The logic is not that hard to grasp, seriously.

Tell me, exactly, what you're extrapolating from her limitation that makes it actually matter, please?

First, take the general rule: an item/spell/ability is allowed if it is unique to the character, or there are enough copies in-game that each person who could potentially use the item/spell/ability can have it.

Are Aeons unique to Yuna? Of course not. At least 4 other characters can summon those Aeons. So now we fall to the second test. Are there enough copies to go around? The answer is no, due to that in-game restriction. If a Summoner has Bahamut summoned, Yuna cannot summon Bahamut. Period. End of story.

Anything attempting to justify or argue against the in-game restriction is falling back to the plot arguments.

At any rate, ignoring that, by that logic, there is more than one Aeon, but out of the PC cast, there is only one person that can wield Aeons, which renders it quite safe for legality.

See the comment above in response to Elfboy regarding this.

It also means that with all sorts of other abilities I mentioned. Dhoulmagus'/Leopold's staff(Channelled power from Rhapthorne of an indeterminite amount), Yuri's fusions(If nothing else, SR is shown to have a clear intelligence of it's own, to the point where it nearly drives him batshit insane.), Ryu 5's Wyrm, Rydia/Dagger/Eiko's summons, etc.

Yes, but those are problems existing solely within the plot of the games and aren't reflected in the gameplay at all.

Also, it's a plot argument, which somehow you used as a way to refute my earlier comment which was a plot argument.

Of course I'm going to use a plot argument to refute a plot argument. Trying to use gameplay to refute plot or vice versa is inane.

No, the stats are not linear progression, nor do they use any logical progression, when you compare enemy Aeons to PC ones, and enemy Aeon skills to PC ones, etc.
This is more like Skull Trap randomly turning into Meteor Swarm, complete with name, but having Skull Trap's animation in BG2. Except it's blue. Bit different of an issue there.

No. It. Isn't. Common. Sense. Please. For. The. Love. Of. God. Learn. It.

The name change and palette swap are cosmetic differences that have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the gameplay. Yuna's Aeon has better stats because she's a better summoner. Just like the level 20 Skull Trap is better than the level 1 Skull Trap because the level 20 caster is a better mage. In the end, however, both are Skull Traps with a definable set of parameters common to both castings; much like how the two Aeons have a common set of definable parameters.

Logic leap, not necessarily true.

Put it this way.

I have an apple. It is yellow.

You can't find your own apple. It was also red!

I therefore stole your apple. I mean, I have an apple! Sure, it may not look exactly the same, and it has a sticker on it and yours didn't. I could have put that on there, it doesn't mean anything.

This is your logic.

That analogy is horrible on so many levels I'm not even sure if it's possible to respond. Maybe by replying to the following point will address both.

I have a summon.

The enemy cannot summon the summon they have that looks sorta like it.

Therefore, it is the same summon. I mean, it looks a lot like it, even if it's colored different! And it has a different name! Nope, same summon! Obviously.

Logic leap. Simple enough explanation yet? You can't jump to conclusion and expect it to be an ironclad argument.

It *is* the same Aeon for all intents and purposes. Yeah, sure, there's a minor logic jump, which is easily gap-filled by using common sense (see, as much as worthless philosophy courses would like you to believe otherwise, syllogisms and the like which result in "ironclad" logical conclusions are worthless in everyday reasoning). The name change and palette swap are cosmetic differences that have no bearing on the gameplay at all.

Okay, that probably didn't answer the analogy one. Damn. Oh well, a better analogy would have been to use a sportscar of the same model with two different paint jobs in a closed universe (i.e. no access to car dealerships or other stuff).

Chongara. But that's not important now.

That bastard is ranked? Whatever, if he's ranked, he's in the same boat as Yuna.

In fact, it's not, searching the script FAQ. Now, granted, you can argue that it's implied by Ryu randomly going Kaiser...except that the Elder's script says that he's...granting Ryu that power and not unlocking it.

The game script doesn't have any of the text for the random dialogue, such as getting new genes or examining chests. Off the top of my head it goes something like "Ryu heard the voices of the brood...Ryu learned the power of the xxxx gene!"

As for the Elder...it's entirely possible to grant someone knowledge...which is indeed the case here considering the following line when you receive Infinity is "A mighty power flows into Ryu... ...awakening his latent power!." Game manual also says genes are latent abilities, so evidence is easily in favor of genes being dormant abilities until the proper knowledge/stimulus/whatever comes along and opens them up.

Yelling at people because you like to: Not good!

You're mistaking being sharp edged with yelling. If you want yelling from me, go look at oh...my reasoning on why I hate Meaning of Birth in the music contest. That's a good example of what my yelling "looks" like.

[Clear Tranquil]

Godlike

Yuna (FFX)  vs. Lady (SH3)

I allow Yuna aeons because summon is a unique *party* command. If Seymour, Dona, Isaaru, Belmegine et al were all in my party with the summon command then there might be issues but they aren't and so there isn't. Simple. No headaches like if I ban summons because other summoners can use summons then how about banning Blue Magic for Kimahri because other Ronso use it or Use for Rikku because it's probably something other Al Bhed can do as well <_< That's just for starters. It opens the way to a whole tidal wave of this and that can't be used because someone /something else uses it and everything is washed away leaving the DL a virtual wasteland of scraggly threads and bones. Saying that as awesme as she is I still think this is one of the few fights where Yuna stands a chance of losing even with the full works. I don't know if I allow Anima and the Magus Sisters but Valefor is on her plate to start with and four more are also handed to her on a plate. Hrmm ... Lady's immune to Sonic Wings right?



Middle

Alice Elliot (SH1) vs. Paine (FFX-2)


Light

Shana (LoD) vs. Fu So Ya (FF4) Death. Guard/anti arm block accessory/dragoon transformation > Stop. Not sure who has the better chance of defeating Zhuzhen though. I think they both have options so hopefully either of them can depending on who goes through <_<
 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Plot only.

Oh give me a fucking break. It's crystal clear Zieg is holding Dart's dragoon power, that Melfice is holding Maken Valborg, etc., and that while these villains are doing this your PC can not wield this power. Dart even LOSES HIS DRAGOON FORM for the battle that Zieg steals it (gameplay!), how is this not good enough evidence for you? But you're saying that if Lunar2 were made into a SRPG and we could check Ghaleon's weapon FFT-style and note that it is indeed Ghaleon's Sword (as the plot makes immensely obvious anyway) you would ban it? Then, and only then? Right.

Yet not only are you ignoring the plot evidence a child could see because it has "no gameplay backing" (despite it being obvious that uh you can't use the power the enemy has during this time), you are trying to argue that the aeon situation is conclusive evidence that aeons are not unique when both Sage and I have suggested it need not be. It's just bafflingly inconsistent.

[SageAcrin]

Why draw such an irrelevant and pointless distinction between PCs and "everyone else"?

Because the Duelling League has for boss damage, boss durability, boss skillsets, boss status resistances for the most part(See how bosses will get ID immunity even if there's no proof they would), boss....everything, really.

I'm struggling to think of a case where bosses are treated the same as PCs at any point. Status offense hit rates is about it? You can't fairly compare bosses to PCs in most other cases.

And, again, unique, level gained/initial/plot-automatically-obtained skills are different from equipment anyways, so the analogy doesn't hold water.

At any rate, a lot of very key and very definitive skills and weapons are gained from defeating bosses. If you want to ban them because they're gained from bosses, that's surely fine, but consistancy is good.

You didn't obfuscate me you obfuscated your own point. There's a subtle difference.

(Irrelevant to the main argument:)

I obfuscated my points by giving you answers to your own points, though.

So...wouldn't that mean you initially obfuscated by getting off track?

Also, an argument to this is that you're the only person actually unable to follow my conversation so far. So...No, I think it's really the first definition. ^_^ I'll try to avoid it in the future.

Again, common sense. Learn it. A mage's MP pool depletion rate is largely under the control of the mage, except for the rare MP busting attack which would be an exception to the rule.

Much like Yuna can entirely control her own Aeon in battle.

(Exceptions for Yojimbo and Magus Sisters. Do you hear me complaining if you ban them? I never have once that I can recall. I will admit I tend to feel okay about that as much because of the pain in the ass as everything else put together, for figuring them out, but ehhhh, if you want to say she completely lacks control over those two...then it's on the same level as Gau's Rages and they also use power obtained from others? Well, anyways, irrelevant tangent.)

Plot only.

So is your arguments against Yuna, barring one, and you write in your own plot to make that one work, so.

First, take the general rule: an item/spell/ability is allowed if it is unique to the character, or there are enough copies in-game that each person who could potentially use the item/spell/ability can have it.

That's not the rule, though. If that's your own, personal view, that's fine and all, but it's not a common rule.

For spells, it's usable if it's initial, plot-obtained, or level/skillpoint/whatever(Natural unique skillset) obtained.

For equipment, it's what's storebought or unique, etc, basically what you said, yes. Not skills.

It's a rare person indeed who doesn't agree with this basic idea, and I've never seen them actually get more restrictive, outside of you yourself.

So let's not call it a general rule, and continue.

Are Aeons unique to Yuna? Of course not.

Generally, Aeons as a class are not, much like magic as a class of ability rarely is.

At least 4 other characters can summon those Aeons. So now we fall to the second test. Are there enough copies to go around? The answer is no, due to that in-game restriction. If a Summoner has Bahamut summoned, Yuna cannot summon Bahamut. Period. End of story.

Logic leap for reasons given before.

Yes, but those are problems existing solely within the plot of the games and aren't reflected in the gameplay at all.

Dagger loses her summons, demonstrating that they can be extracted from her and that they have a seperate existance, and that they can be physically removed from her body. This is entirely gameplay. She loses them, it makes me very sad, I wanted to nuke earlygame with Bahamut. By extension, this applies to Eiko.

Wave of Ice is a demonstratably staff-linked move; All bosses that use it wave the staff at you and all the bosses with the staff have it, though in fairness this may be consider plot. Then again, your results may vary. It has an argument.

(Edit: Wait, did Leopold? If he didn't, then yes, you're right, the staff is mostly a plot issue.)

Seraphic Radience is a seperate creature you must fight inside Yuri's soul. This is a gameplay issue.

Ryu 5 has the gameplay element of the D-Counter which clearly shows that Wyrm not only has it's own will and intelligence, but feeding it in any way, or even letting time pass, will cause him to rip Ryu5 in half. This is a large gameplay element that pisses people off about BoF5 in fact.

Nope, all gameplay, actually. At least, arguably.

The name change and palette swap are cosmetic differences that have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the gameplay. Yuna's Aeon has better stats because she's a better summoner. Just like the level 20 Skull Trap is better than the level 1 Skull Trap because the level 20 caster is a better mage. In the end, however, both are Skull Traps with a definable set of parameters common to both castings; much like how the two Aeons have a common set of definable parameters.

No common set of definable parameters exist. That's what you're missing.

Enemy Aeon mechanics function completely differently from PC. Compare Seymour and Anima's statistics; They don't function at all the same via the completely-mathed-out Aeon-statistic formulas. In fact, Anima has 1 Magical Defense as a boss, while Seymour has 25. This is completely impossible by any Aeon formula, by a factor of about ten in the opposite direction. There is no in-game mechanical way to explain this at any point, it is completely impossible to use the same formula to calculate both.

That analogy is horrible on so many levels I'm not even sure if it's possible to respond.

(Irrelevant to argument:)

But...I like apples. ._.

(See below for real answer.)

It *is* the same Aeon for all intents and purposes. Yeah, sure, there's a minor logic jump, which is easily gap-filled by using common sense (see, as much as worthless philosophy courses would like you to believe otherwise, syllogisms and the like which result in "ironclad" logical conclusions are worthless in everyday reasoning). The name change and palette swap are cosmetic differences that have no bearing on the gameplay at all.

So you don't argue with anything I said, fundamentally.

You agree that you made a logic jump.

(And attempt to belittle that it matters. And attempt to brush off that I can make similarly good logic jumps, including a completely pure gameplay explanation that makes perfect sense.

If you're using Occam's Razor, "They did it because they didn't want you absorbing all the enemy Aeon's attacks while you punch the hell out of them. Screw plot." is the best explanation of all, at which point I suppose logically you can extend this to other summons of a similar elemental alignment, but not much else.).

You agree that there is a name change and palette swap that show fundamental change between a class of Aeon.

You don't agree that there's any mechanics change, but as I've shown above, there clearly is.

Gotcha.

Okay, that probably didn't answer the analogy one. Damn. Oh well, a better analogy would have been to use a sportscar of the same model with two different paint jobs in a closed universe (i.e. no access to car dealerships or other stuff).

I have a sportsAeon.

It is blue.

You have a sportsAeon.

It is yellow. It has gone missing.

There are no other sportsAeons of this particular build and make, in Spira.

So they are the same sportsAeon. I mean, it looks a lot like it, even if it's colored different! And the engine's been tuned up to run much better and oh it has a turbo attached. And I have it's registration, to me... But it could be the same sportsAeon. So therefore it is.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, it's the same analogy.

That bastard is ranked?

(Irrelevant beyond this point.)

I know, really.

You're mistaking being sharp edged with yelling. If you want yelling from me, go look at oh...my reasoning on why I hate Meaning of Birth in the music contest. That's a good example of what my yelling "looks" like.

I don't really care what "yelling" is in relation to you, just in relation to the rest of the world. ^_^

Edit:

Oh, forgot the Ryu 3 part.

Yeah, I missed the latent power line. Sorry. ^_^;

However, it's worthy of note that the other two times he gets Genes from living dragons, one of which, Shadow(A fairly good duelling Gene, as it's vital to Tiamat) is ripped from a dragon he just fought, it says nothing like this. Which heavily implies it's a latent power, along with Flame and Defender, but not other genes.

I can't say for the manual, but...manuals have often mislisted plot, mislisted gameplay, mislisted...actually everything imaginable. I dunno about that being enough to sway an opinion here.

[InfinityDragon]

Oh give me a fucking break. It's crystal clear Zieg is holding Dart's dragoon power, that Melfice is holding Maken Valborg, etc., and that while these villains are doing this your PC can not wield this power. Dart even LOSES HIS DRAGOON FORM for the battle that Zieg steals it (gameplay!), how is this not good enough evidence for you? But you're saying that if Lunar2 were made into a SRPG and we could check Ghaleon's weapon FFT-style and note that it is indeed Ghaleon's Sword (as the plot makes immensely obvious anyway) you would ban it? Then, and only then? Right.

Of course it's clear in the plot that only one person is holding the power at a time.

What isn't clear is the gameplay effect those items/abilities have. Zieg's only battle form is the dragoon one as far as I remember. If you ban the Red Dragoon, then Zieg no longer has a valid battle form (Dart doesn't care, he has Super Dragoon or whatever). If you ban Ghaleon's Sword, exactly how much does that hurt Ghaleon's attack power (Hiro doesn't care because he has Althena's Blade)? If you start banning stuff that's manifested primarily in plot with very little gameplay backing, then you run into problems.

Thinking ahead is good!

Much like Yuna can entirely control her own Aeon in battle.

Controlling her Aeons was never the point here. The point was that there is a very simple factor that can prevent an Aeon from being summoned: if that Aeon had just recently been killed. There's no comparison to Yuna being unable to summon because the Aeon is dead and a mage being able to cast spells because it has no MP.

So is your arguments against Yuna, barring one, and you write in your own plot to make that one work, so.

I wrote in FF10's plot? Uh, yeah, no. It's explicitly made clear in the plot that an Aeon summoning requires a summoner and the Fayth. Moreover, the only reason I bring up plot is because you resort to plot arguments to get around that little gameplay thorn in your side.

For spells, it's usable if it's initial, plot-obtained, or level/skillpoint/whatever(Natural unique skillset) obtained.

Actually, it's because this by definition fits under the general rule I mentioned above. If 4 characters naturally learn Spell X, then there are enough "copies" of spell X to go around to each user. Simple enough.

Yuna's case is a bit different. While summoners can summon naturally, there aren't enough copies of the Aeon to go around to each summoner.

No common set of definable parameters exist. That's what you're missing.

What? Now that's just silly. The Aeons both use the same model (apparently you think cosmetics matter), they have fundamentally the same abilities, you tend to fight the summoner who summons said Aeon in or near the temple where the related Fayth could be found.

You agree that you made a logic jump.

Prove that the sun will rise tomorrow without using a logic jump. Not everything, in fact almost nothing, can be proven with an ironclad logical argument. Oh sure, it helps, but it's hardly necessary. What matters is the weight of the evidence in favor of one side or the other.

You agree that there is a name change and palette swap that show fundamental change between a class of Aeon.

...no. I agree there's a name change and palette swap, but there's no way that is a "fundamental change."

You don't agree that there's any mechanics change, but as I've shown above, there clearly is.

Oh I agree that the Aeon's stats change. That doesn't mean that the Aeon itself has changed in some completely different way.

If you're using Occam's Razor, "They did it because they didn't want you absorbing all the enemy Aeon's attacks while you punch the hell out of them. Screw plot." is the best explanation of all, at which point I suppose logically you can extend this to other summons of a similar elemental alignment, but not much else.

Not necessarily. "The simplest, most accurate, most workable theory wins" is what Occam's razor means. Since we have no idea how accurate your claim of the developers' intent is, it isn't very workable nor is the accuracy known.

"Summoner X cannot summon Aeon Y if Summoner Z has already summoned Aeon Y .:. Aeon Y is not unique to Summoner X or Summoner Z." Is more simple, more likely to be accurate, and more workable.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, it's the same analogy.

You're right, even that analogy was horrible. Mostly because you're mis-characterizing the argument into an attempt at conclusive proof.

[superaielman]

Anything attempting to justify or argue against the in-game restriction is falling back to the plot arguments.

Go back to studying for the bar exam.  I know you don't like Yuna summon's and have issues with the legality of it, that's fine.  This level of inventive bullshit, while entertaining in a vacuum of 'what the fuck is ID doing this time', adds nothing to the actual debate on hand and is just derailing into a flaming pile of shit captained by someone who can't even vote on the respective match.

Or in short: Shut up.

[cloudstrifesheart]

its not nice to tell people to shut up, thats just cold

[superaielman]

I agree completely. The DL thrives on reasonable arguments in an environment that is open and friendly to all comers, even ones who take stances far different from the norm. Starting up insults and piling on the rudeness only drives people away and presents an unfriendly face to all of our voters and lurkers. That said, ID was just stirring shit for the hell of it, and that's not cool.  Subject (The aforementioned slapfight, not debating matches) is closed.

Shana (LoD) vs. Fu So Ya (FF4): I've seen Stop miss, though I'm not sure it even has to!

It missed a few times in my test as well. I just think it's really high base hit rate (80? The decent statuses usually aren't above 40) lets it smash through Mdef well.  It's not like the enemies tested on aren't scrubs against magic, they're pretty tanky in game to magical damage.

[BaconForTheSoul]

Yawns.  ID again says "Plot only" wherever it works and ignores the post competely where it doesn't. 

Other people summon who aren't even in the fucking party, thus Yuna is not allowed hers?

Well shit, some bosses in FF6 cast Fire 3, so Terra doesn't get that.  (I know you don't allow her Ultima etc. which I can at least see.)
DQ8 bosses cast a lot of the same spells as PCs.  Ban all those spells.  Leopold/Dhoul both use Staff, ban them.
White Magic isn't unique in almost any game.  Ban it.
Most Runes aren't unique in Suikos.  Ban them all.
The list goes on.

Just come out and say.  "I Hate Yuna just like I hate Terra, Kefka, and Sephiroth so I will find any way I can to nerf them."  That'd end this whole damn debate just like that!

Edit: Super closed slapfight, had to remove final part of post.

[Sierra]

Most Runes aren't unique in Suikos.  Ban them all.

As an aside, he already does that.

[Yakumo]

Most Runes aren't unique in Suikos.  Ban them all.

As an aside, he already does that.

Even runes that are locked on a character and can't be removed!

[Grefter]

If you guys don't stop it I am going to freaking slap the stupid out of you.

[SageAcrin]

What he said.

Godlike:

Yuna (FFX)  vs. Lady (SH3): Lady. Ridiculously close match to me(I do see her tanking two Anima hits), with allowing the Magus Sisters, on paper, but I'm inclined to give it to Lady because the silly girls could do something stupid and derail that strategy. No real other way to win for Yuna in my books. (Well, maybe you could see Auto-Life not getting hit by Lost Progress and she could chip to a win, but that's problematic on many levels...)

False Althena (L:EBC) vs. Rika (PS4): FA.

Heavy

Sir Leopold (DQ8) vs. Largo (TotA): Leopold. Largo does not really like a combination of controllable and randomly-very-high damage. Much like most limit fighters.
Arc Eda Ricolne (AtLC) vs. Sync (TotA): Arc. IIRC TotA slow doesn't slow down attack speed, only movement? Arc has a movement stat. Lowering it vs a melee fighter won't help a lot. (If I'm recalling wrong, of course, Sync has a decent case. Though one possibly entirely evadable by triggering L3 Invincible as a finisher at the right time, depending on your Sync HP respect.)

Middle

Lani (FF9) vs. Yuki (G3): Lani. Bla bla don't really see Water getting hit due to full MT bla.
Alice Elliot (SH1) vs. Paine (FFX-2): Alice. Assault: Good skill. Assault's massive startup lag letting Alice buff beforehand and probably get halfway to her next turn: Less good. Oh well~

Light

Shana (LoD) vs. Fu So Ya (FF4): FuSoYa. You know that massive, massive period in the Defend strategy where Shana's sitting there defending? Psych over and over. 1 MP a shot, she's screwed in 20 turns. ISN'T IT SILLY. AHAHAHAHAHA-*DIES.* Suppose this doesn't work if you don't respect Psych and Stop(Or Berserk, which works as well, I think.).

Zhuzhen Liu (SH1) vs. Dinn (S5): Fire. Uh....going Dinn right now, the arguments convince me in his favor I guess.

[muakaka]

Arc Eda Ricolne (AtLC) vs. Sync (TotA): Arc. IIRC TotA slow doesn't slow down attack speed, only movement? Arc has a movement stat. Lowering it vs a melee fighter won't help a lot. (If I'm recalling wrong, of course, Sync has a decent case. Though one possibly entirely evadable by triggering L3 Invincible as a finisher at the right time, depending on your Sync HP respect.)

Well, there's always the Free Run/Defend argument. (Yes, bosses in TotA can defend. Although it hardly does them any good. Except in this case, where Arc's damage is THAT bad.)
I recall Arc's Invincible damage is pretty darn limited.... unless I'm forgetting he has a strong range attack.
Normally I don't take into account movement unless both games are affected by it. In this case.... I think it should be applicable.
Where in this case Sync will definitely win due to the fact that Arc can't reach him.

Defend on the other hand.... should at least see Sync solidly through Arc's limited Invincibles.
This is, again, if I'm not forgetting Arc has any real good damage.