Season 42, Week 4 - Girls' club in Godlike, boys' club in Heavy? Sexists.

[muakaka]

Right. It normally depends on a person's opinions about their "allowed" stuff.

I am quite lenient on optionals/storeboughts, as long as they aren't super-hard to get.
Materia, well, isn't exactly unique to any single PC, so on that matter, I only give them what they start off with.
I allow Ryu4 use of Royal Sword, despite it being a last boss steal, and that Steal and Pilfer are not learnt by anybody defaultly, because it practically screams "Rightfully Ryu4's".

You can see Yuna as only having storyline Aeons, but even then she CAN hold her own in Godlike.
Good speed, free healing, near-limitless MP, high damage in Holy, and still has most her meatshields, only Bahamut replaces Anima as strongest.
I may hate her with a passion, but worthless? Hardly.

And SUPER BOSS FORMS belong in Unranked.
Wrecks the ranking completely if you don't do that. I mean, Laharl and Etna would be tops of Godlike.

[DomaDragoon]

If you allowed all her Aeons, then it would only be fair to allow characters optional boss forms(SUPER BOSS FORMS) or alternate forms from diffferent games.

That's not quite accurate. See, the Aeons are all in Yuna's game of origin, as well as the game she was ranked for. That's a little different from forms that are in non-ranked games. A better example would probably be along the lines of Monster Z.

There's no problem with denying the High Summoner the optional Aeons, as it's a grey area. But there's also no problem with allowing them due to uniqueness and stuff.

The important thing is that there will be cake.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Not allowing Anima to Yuna is like not allowing Seraphic Radiance to Yuri, or not allowing Jack his final sword, or not allowing Jack his best two swords, or not allowing Megid to Chaz, etc.

Hey, if you want to ban optional stuff, go crazy. Just be consistent about it.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Super boss forms are nothing like Aeons at all, and 3/4ths of Aeons are not optional! Just three of them! And super bosses are completely different, anyway. I think you are missing the distinction between aftergame and optional regular game. Materia is of course completely unrelated since the problem isn't optional with that, but rather that you can't assign it to one particular person fairly, in other words it's not UNIQUE.

EDIT: ^_^~

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm deleting CSH's last two posts. If you've seen them, you know why.

To CSH and everyone else: If you can't post in a civil fashion, don't post at all. Debate is the lifeblood of this topic and I am not trying to discourage anyone from doing so, but try to show some basic manners.

[SageAcrin]

CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT MOST PEOPLE ALLOW EVERY SINGLE AEON SHE GETS. 3/4 OF THEM ARE OPTIONAL. most of her wins are due to aeons that should be illegal for her to use. Im far from being biased towards Yuna. If you allowed all her Aeons, then it would only be fair to allow characters optional boss forms(SUPER BOSS FORMS) or alternate forms from diffferent games. It would then be legal to allow secret super weapons and optional powers that you would not get if you completed the game normally.

1/2 are optional out of raw numbers, though three of them(Magus Sisters) are connected. 5/8 out of actual summon commands.

Superboss forms are a seperate issue, as are cameos. It's pretty reasonable to allow superboss forms from the original game-if you can come up with a time this really matters that actually isn't some optional area that makes no sense plotwise due to the fact that the original person is somewhere completely different, and hence it's debatable if it's actually them or just a random joke character, such as the Valkyrie Profile Seraphic Gate superbosses, then please, let me know. The one thing I can come up with, Monster Z, has the plot of being...one-time in ACF, which makes it an entirely different can of worms.

Cameos are even worse about being "them", since there's no concievable way the original characters could have gotten there. They're a joke with no plot continuity whatsoever.

Having said that, though, if you want to allow either, more power to you. The reasons I gave are why most don't.

As for optional weapons, why, yes, people do allow those if they're legal. Same with spells. Yuri gets hyped for Seraphic Radiance all the time, as Elfboy noted... He also has it as a major plot element in the first game. It's still a pain in the ass collosally easy to miss possible to miss permanently skill. People still allow it. 'cause it's, well, them. It makes them a more interesting dueller, by and large.

Plot Materia? Sure, allow those if you feel like it. None of them actually matter, except Restore's horribly shaky claim(Barret has a claim to it, so does Cloud. I'm not about to give it to both and both seem to have good claims to it.). People do allow initial Materia and have for a while.

Still, I'm not going to object if you find Yuna much more interesting without optional Aeons and ban them just for that reason; It's...biased and rather ridiculous since we have Godlikes that can still beat her, but whatever, I don't actually care. Just don't bawl others out for it, please.

The important thing is that there will be cake.

THE CAKE IS ALIVE.

YOU BASTARD YOU TRIED TO FEED PEOPLE BUNDT.

*Runs screaming.*

[cloudstrifesheart]

Lame.....how would optional boss forms not be unique to that character? Yojimbo, Magus Sisters, and Anima are the optional aeons I believe. Without the optional aeons Bahamut would be the best if I am mistaken. I never said Yuna was a horrible character. Too me she is a high heavy/low godlike at best with storyline aeons. With her optional summons....yeah she is nearly unstoppable. The only thing is she can't take a hit to save her life and she is really not that speedy as I recall, not as fast as Lady anyway. Yuna loses either way. Lady would eventually doubleturn and smash Yuna. And I am consistent with what I allow.

[cloudstrifesheart]

doesn't yuri automatically get sepharic radiance at the end of the game? And Monster Z is in the original Wild Arms as well. The only difference is that in Wild Arms the original he isnt a playable character. I mean it all makes sense, its where you draw the line I guess. I t just makes it harder to vote because everyone allows different things.

[SageAcrin]

Too me she is a high heavy/low godlike at best with storyline aeons.

Explain how that works, though?

She's low/mid Godlike without the Aeons at all. Tons of damage, good speed, good magical durability, etc. Even if you lack respect for Holy's damage for some reason, and disallow Celestial Weapons, she still has a ton of options.

Storyline Aeons block all status and have high durability and a ton of options. None of them are precisely bad.

In fact, this view is so...bafflingly seperate from reality that I suggest you look up an Aeon statistics FAQ, because if you don't think being able to chain five fairly durable seperate HP bars with solid damage, and then being able to fight on your own, is good enough for at least mid-Godlike, you have to be recalling them wrong or something. Ryu 1 is high Heavy/low Godlike, and all his dragon forms share his HP, so if they die, he does.

Even heavily nerfing their HP or damage due to them "taking up the party"-something that, due to Yuna's period solo, is pretty baffling to me, they're clearly way better relatively when she's alone-...it's a damned good trick.

doesn't yuri automatically get sepharic radiance at the end of the game?

Not only doesn't he, he doesn't have it in SH2.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

doesn't yuri automatically get sepharic radiance at the end of the game? And Monster Z is in the original Wild Arms as well. The only difference is that in Wild Arms the original he isnt a playable character. I mean it all makes sense, its where you draw the line I guess. I t just makes it harder to vote because everyone allows different things.

Yuri needs to go through a FAQtastic sidequest in the endgame to get Seraphic Radiance. Monster Z is a superboss form that reeks of aftergame and ACF expands on it to being accessible only once-a-life-time due to being a bizarre boost given by Alhazad with wonky drawbacks.

[cloudstrifesheart]

Monster Z is accessible before the end of the game on both versions. Its not an epilogue fight. And yes I understand Yuna has options, my only problem is that she can't take a hit. SHe has tons of mp yes, but she can't heal lock her way to victory. I have respect for holy. I also have mid-level respect for bahamut and the unicorn horse aeon(can't remember the name off the top of my head). Shes heavy at best without her aeons unless I'm missing something. Its been a year since I beat the game. So maybe Ciato can give me a full description of her abilities and what her celestial weapon allows her. Thanks in advance

[Luther Lansfeld]

I'm not arguing what her rank is without the optional Aeons, that's Sage. I have no interest in defining the ranking of someone using an interp I don't take.

[SageAcrin]

give me a full description of her abilities and what her celestial weapon allows her.

Sure.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=205.0

There you go. It lists everything that could possibly be relevant.

[cloudstrifesheart]

Thanks Sage........I am sorry for my comments earlier. I really did not appreciate being called a troll though...so I am sorry Ciato. I am not biased towards any character in the rpdl, maybe except Cloud hahaha. I would properly vote against him if I thought he would lose though. Wow, Yuna has good speed and insane evasion with her celestial weapon. Her hp and defense and the worst in the game which was what I thought. Thats my problem, with her she can't take a hit. That is why I chose Lady over Yuna. Lady is faster than Yuna and will eventually doubleturn her and thats the end of the story. Lady is an end game boss who has the best hp I believe in her game, so I have enough faith that she could outslug an Aeon or two.

[Cmdr_King]

Begin Tangental Non-Sequitor-

Hey, plot materia matters!  Leviathan gives Yuffie some usable magic damage!  There's definitely fights where that would matter!

End Tangent

[cloudstrifesheart]

yeah but Levaithan is optinal anyway and it is not unique to her. There is no point in the game where you have to go to Wutai for anything, so should that really be allowed.....probably not

[SnowFire]

On the two matches of interest:

Yuna vs. Lady: Well, Yuna who can only Grand Summon clearly loses.  If it weren't for Lost Progress, it'd be interesting, since she could theoretically play Shell / Auto-Life games against stock combos!  But yeah, going up against two enemies at once is trouble for Yuna even then - oh, the irony.  I suspect she'd still never have any time for Holies and would slowly run out of MP, and Lost Progress exists anyway, so no.  It seems like Yuna with Aeons but without Anima & the Magus 3 also loses, assuming Lady can continue her double against Yuna after finishing her first Aeon off, which sounds fair enough.

Shana vs. FuSoYa - White is clearly a bad idea (I think even non-Dragoons had some elemental resistance to their element?), so that leaves Nuke to break through Shana spamming Defend.  Nuke costs 50 MP (!!), and FuSoYa only has three shots of it with his 190 MP.  And...  I think, checking the stat topics, that's only around average damage (5000 damage to an average that's between 4000-6000 depending on interpretations).  And Miranda's MDef (which is presumably a good stand in for pretend endgame Shana) is cast-best, and aside from the 10% healing, LoD defend halves damage...  uh, yeah.  Fu can't possibly ever kill Shana here.  Hell, he may have trouble ever getting her to half life.  Now, FuSoYa can use Psych to drain MP!  ...but Psych has a horrendously long casting time, and arguably defending will halve the amount of MP stolen, and if he Psychs after chaining Flares, the Defends in the meanwhile will help Shana get back up to full health before Fu goes on the offense again.  Eventually both Fu and Shana will have no MP, and then Shana can win on doubles and on defending against Fu's pathetic physical attacks.  She never even needs bother transforming into a Dragoon.

[ThePiggyman]

yeah but Levaithan is optinal anyway and it is not unique to her. There is no point in the game where you have to go to Wutai for anything, so should that really be allowed.....probably not

If you look at it that way, then I don't see Yuna being able to use Anima or the Magus Sisters. Going to Baaj Temple and Remiem Temple are completely optional tasks, much like going to Wutai is.

So, if you allow Yuna's bonus aeons, I can see an argument to let Yuffie use Leviathan. Granted, Leviathan is a materia, so I can see some who would disallow it. It's up in the air.

[Dark Holy Elf]

It's more that Leviathan isn't unique to Yuffie in any way. Uniqueness is generally seen as the most important determiner of whether something is allowed in the DL.

Yuffie has a (weak) plot argument for it, so if you want to allow it, go crazy, but it's pretty clearly on a much shakier claim than something that is in fact unique.

Once again, I don't really get this optionality argument, since I've really never seen it put forward for... anyone else in the DL.

[alanna82]

I'm one of the people who dont allow aeons at all. They arnt Yuna, they take her place on the battle field. I dont ally any summons that do that. *Chongara's, Call team, Etc."

They even have separate stats. To me its not Yuna dueling, its her summons that are dueling.  If it was a one shot move like Rydia's, it would be fine, its the whole "remove Yuna and replace her with the summon" that I dont allow.

[cloudstrifesheart]

You have a very good point alanna. The summons do have separate stats, kind of like the summons in 12 I believe. See if would be more plausible if when the aeon died, Yuna died....but she doesn't. That makes it even a more solid fact that they are their own characters even though they are unique to Yuna and only Yuna can use them. Yuna by herself though is still a very high heavy, low godlike with insane speed and evasion with unlimited casting of holy. I believe she has auto-shell and regen....something like that. She just can' take a hit to save her life. The point I was trying to make piggyman, is that Leviathan is not unique to her and when you originally get her in your party she doesn't have it. Everyone can use it. Its very weak plot storyline at best, so I guess its up in the air. I'm not sure how much it would really help her out in the dl anyway. I'm quite sure her conformer(best weapon) does much more damage than that summon attack does.

[SageAcrin]

The summons do not have seperate stats, they are directly linked to Yuna's with multipliers. You can boost them extra with Spheres, but you can feed PCs stats boosters, too; It feels like too minor a point to matter relatively.

Ryu 3's Dragons are based off the power of various Genes, which are remains of other Brood members he's fusing with(Exception for Fire and Defender, which are clearly his own abilities. He hasn't used these in any duel, to my recollection, and would lose many of his wins if he had to rely on them.) and Ryu 4's are based off the fossilized remains of various dragons and are him fusing with them; Both times, Ryu does not die when they die, and Ryu 4's in fact stay dead much like Yuna's. Does anyone blather about banning them, even though they're very clearly as much or more someone else's power? No, they always somehow feel this is different for reasons that will come to them eventually. *Mutters.*

Someone will get me to think about Yuffie's Leviathan the moment it actually comes up, but a plot claim based off something entirely missable, that is given to you IIRC during a black screen and that is not automatically equipped on the character or in any way directly possessed by them at any seen moment does not have anywhere near as strong of a claim as Yuna's Aeons optional Aeons. Sorry~ Doesn't mean I don't allow it, just doesn't mean it's comparable.

[cloudstrifesheart]

Yuna's aeons are definitely unique to her while Leviathan is not unique to anyone.

[SageAcrin]

There's also that. Yuna's claim isn't pure plot, but also a unique command.

But, just from the plot point of view, was what I was going with.

[Lady Ashe]

Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the aeon's stats loosely based off of Yuna's? I seem to recall their stats going up a bit when Yuna's did. Wouldn't that make it comparable to how Yuri's stats change with his fusions then? (You can level the stats of Yuri's fusions too, so saying that aeons are different because they can level their stats individually doesn't work)

I don't really care about this argument - I allow aeons and if you don't want to, you don't have to - but after seeing the stats argument I just thought I would bring this up. <<

Edit: Boo Sage.