Author Topic: Season 42, Week 4 - Girls' club in Godlike, boys' club in Heavy? Sexists.  (Read 14537 times)

cloudstrifesheart

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I allow aeons....just the atoryline ones.
I think......I think I want to be forgiven. Mhhm. More than anything.

DjinnAndTonic

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I would be less concerned about the legality of Yuna's aeons and more concerned with the legality of the FFX's ultimate weapons - they seem considerably more aftergame than the aeons, are more 'FAQtastic' than Seraphic Radiance (great word, by the way), and there's a good deal of examples of other duelists not being allowed their aftergame equipment. SO2's item creation weapons come to mind, WA4's Black market, ToP's Moria dungeon weapons are all on a comparable level with the FFX ultimates for 'aftergame-ness', yet no one seems to question that the FFX characters should get their ultimate equips. I mean, really, if you spent the time to get all the FFX ultimates, then you're significantly overpowered for the final bosses.

As for Yojimbo, Anima and Magus Sisters... really, if Yuna can't beat someone with her 5-Aeon parade, then she really doesn't deserve the win in my opinion... Still, I can see these as comparable to Seraphic Radiance and Megid, so I'm inclined to allow them, but damn.

Godlike

Yuna (FFX)  vs. Lady (SH3) - Lady had a shot, but meh, Yuna's generally a safe bet.
False Althena (L:EBC) vs. Rika (PS4) - Poor Rika, almost had a shot at the championship.


Heavy

Sir Leopold (DQ8) vs. Largo (TotA) - Don't care.
Arc Eda Ricolne (AtLC) vs. Sync (TotA) - Invincible hype.


Middle

Lani (FF9) vs. Yuki (G3) - Not Lani.
Alice Elliot (SH1) vs. Paine (FFX-2) - Better than I remembered.


Light

Shana (LoD) vs. Fu So Ya (FF4) - Gets to Dragoon form, win.
Zhuzhen Liu (SH1) vs. Dinn (S5) - Outslugs the healing before status hits.

-Djinn

James_xeno

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Uniqueness is generally seen as the most important determiner of whether something is allowed in the DL.
Wait, what!? The aeons are unique to Yuna now?
Quickly, go let Seymour, Isaaru, Belgemine and Ginnem know that right away!


Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not impossible to summon an already currently summoned aeon? Ifrit vs. Ifrit etc.



I'm one of the people who dont allow aeons at all. They arnt Yuna, they take her place on the battle field. I dont ally any summons that do that. *Chongara's, Call team, Etc."

They even have separate stats. To me its not Yuna dueling, its her summons that are dueling.  If it was a one shot move like Rydia's, it would be fine, its the whole "remove Yuna and replace her with the summon" that I dont allow.
That's basically my view as well. Aeons trample all over the spirit of a duel.


And please, none of the "but aeons are a part of her game/class..*boohoo" whining. So are a lot of banned or restricted stuff from games. Sometimes even system essentials. materia, GFs etc.
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Because there are 500 antelope and three crocodiles. Not because the crocodiles are enviornmentalists.

Ultradude

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Lani (FF9) vs. Yuki (G3) - Not Lani.

This isn't just aimed at you Djinn, but I'd like to know what that means.
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SageAcrin

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Uniqueness is generally seen as the most important determiner of whether something is allowed in the DL.
Wait, what!? The aeons are unique to Yuna now?
Quickly, go let Seymour, Isaaru, Belgemine and Ginnem know that right away!

Oh, you mean because they summon pallet swapped Aeons with different names? Yeah, that matters a whole lot from a plot standpoint! Against your point. Oops.

Except Seymour, of course, who shows no demonstratable ability to summon anything after he becomes an unsent. (...nor do any unsent, thinking on it. Other things involving Pyreflies? Yes. Actual summoning? No. Odd note, there.) If you want to based Anima, at least you have somewhat an argument though.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not impossible to summon an already currently summoned aeon? Ifrit vs. Ifrit etc.

It is, but there's never any plot backup for it. It's never explained, never mentioned, it's just a mechanical fact that you cannot summon an Aeon against an enemy summoned pallet swapped version of it.

Problems with this;

A: There's a perfectly good gameplay reason(Making the Aeon not get completely asskicked.) for this. Making there be no need for a plot explanation which has to be inferred.

B: Enemy Aeon stats are completely different, and often, so are their attacks(Enemy Bahamut charges up to Megaflare rather than doing anything normal, for instance. PC Bahamut never can do this.). This, if anything, backs up Yuna's Aeons as having a unique connection to her.

C: Everything else aside? You can make up reasons(Again, there's no plot explanation for the inability to summon an Aeon against a pallet swapped Aeon named something different.) to explain this, but they're just that; Made up. Plot arguments are shaky enough, but if you're having to write your own for it, that's just trash as an argument, IMO.

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Aeons trample all over the spirit of a duel.

What spirit? Seriously, I've never gotten this. What is this mystical spirit of a duel that involves one entity, yet is so damned ephemeral that we can't seem to get Barbarossa, whose battle form is a three-headed dragon that may not even be him, booted?

What is this spirit that somehow allows using magic, weapons, ancient deity powers(Hi, False Althena!), large mechanical contraptions(Tony's controversy aside, there's inumerable characters who would be absolutely nothing without everything from railguns to cybernetic implants. Endgame Ness is arguably a damned constructed robot.), monsters, generics(Your results may vary on generics.), abilities from seperate entities(Hi, Melfice! Oh, but that's equipment, right, right.), summoned monsters that only last one attack(But naturally can be used to be a character's entire offence. Oh, nothing wrong with *that*), transformations that take hits for people that are based off of other creature's abilities(Hi, Ryus.), power channelled from a god-damned planet's core and arguably not usable outside of it(Hi, Sephiroth!), and powers channeled from sentient staffs to be legal, but somehow if it's YUNA'S AEONS IT'S ILLEGAL BECAUSE....What the hell. Why precisely? Without something that isn't at least partially covered in that mammoth list? Because, mind you, I'm sure there's more. Sentient magical runes for skillsets. Oops, sorry, forgot one at the end there.

*Being* an Aeon, oh no, heavens, that's not illegal there. Just summoning them. Excuse me while I politely and pointedly do not eyeroll at you.
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Dhyerwolf

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SO2's item creation weapons come to mind, WA4's Black market, ToP's Moria dungeon weapons are all on a comparable level with the FFX ultimates for 'aftergame-ness', yet no one seems to question that the FFX characters should get their ultimate equips. I mean, really, if you spent the time to get all the FFX ultimates, then you're significantly overpowered for the final bosses.

I'm not sure what you mean by SO 2's IC weapons, but I can't think of anyone who specifically bans say "Eternal Sphere." Most of the SO 2 IC weapons aren't aftergame.
...into the nightfall.

InfinityDragon

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Yay, more Yuna arguments! She's clearly the most beloved and cherished character in the DL!

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Oh, you mean because they summon pallet swapped Aeons with different names? Yeah, that matters a whole lot from a plot standpoint! Against your point. Oops.

Who cares if it doesn't make sense from a plot perspective--which, by the way, is wrong; it does make sense--they're non-unique from a gameplay perspective and that's all she wrote.

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It is, but there's never any plot backup for it. It's never explained, never mentioned, it's just a mechanical fact that you cannot summon an Aeon against an enemy summoned pallet swapped version of it.

Again, the plot is largely irrelevant. There's a bunch of stuff in the gameplay of games that is not reflected in the plot. ZOMG there's no plot explanation for Ryu's AP cost for dragons, let's totally disregard it!!!!!!

Nevermind the fact that the plot that's there points AWAY from Aeon's being unique to Yuna, so the argument is flat out incorrect on top of being irrelevant..

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Except Seymour, of course, who shows no demonstratable ability to summon anything after he becomes an unsent (...nor do any unsent, thinking on it. Other things involving Pyreflies? Yes. Actual summoning? No. Odd note, there.)

Remiem is unsent and can summon every Aeon in the game. Chalk up Seymour's lack of summoning to the incredibly awesome ability of FF10's writers to tell a coherent story.

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What spirit? Seriously, I've never gotten this. What is this mystical spirit of a duel that involves one entity, yet is so damned ephemeral that we can't seem to get Barbarossa, whose battle form is a three-headed dragon that may not even be him, booted?

du·el /ˈduəl, ˈdyu-/ [doo-uhl, dyoo-] noun, verb, -eled, -el·ing or (especially British) -elled, -el·ling.
–noun
1.   a prearranged combat between two persons, fought with deadly weapons according to an accepted code of procedure, esp. to settle a private quarrel.


In case you missed the key part:

a prearranged combat between two persons

If it isn't obvious yet!

between two persons

I do believe that's what people refer to when saying Aeons ruin the spirit of a duel (which they do!).

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but somehow if it's YUNA'S AEONS IT'S ILLEGAL BECAUSE....What the hell. Why precisely? Without something that isn't at least partially covered in that mammoth list?

Well, let's see. You already answered yourself when in regards to most of that stuff: weapons are okay; calling in friends to help because you're getting your ass kicked in a duel is not. Let's just make it simple rather than going through that list piecemeal. Nothing in that list is having a wholly different entity fight in the character's stead. Oh, there's also the uniqueness problem that compounds with the separate entity problem. Mind, stuff like Suikoden Runes I tend to ban on a pretty broad scale unless its undeniably unique, so don't bitch to me about allowing that.


cloudstrifesheart

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You are absolutely right Infinity.
I think......I think I want to be forgiven. Mhhm. More than anything.

cloudstrifesheart

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I mean shes already allowed her celestial weapon which is iffy enough....all the aeons two. It's not really a duel when you have someone else fighting your battle. Yuna is a middle/heavy at best without aeons and her celestial weapon. I think rules need to be rewritten
I think......I think I want to be forgiven. Mhhm. More than anything.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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I find funny how, even in spite of all this talk about violating the rules of a duel by not fighting alone nobody ever addressed the fact that Lady totally doesn't bring the Malice Unbral to fight alongside her in her fight.
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Ryogo

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Heavy

Sir Leopold (DQ8) vs. Largo (TotA) - Largo just rocks

Middle

Alice Elliot (SH1) vs. Paine (FFX-2) - Bring on da Paine! Yes? No? I'll shut up now...

Light

Shana (LoD) vs. Fu So Ya (FF4) - Dragoon = Victory

Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the aeon's stats loosely based off of Yuna's? I seem to recall their stats going up a bit when Yuna's did.  

....

I don't really care about this argument - I allow aeons and if you don't want to, you don't have to - but after seeing the stats argument I just thought I would bring this up. <<


Just because I didn't see this actually answered... This is true. Yuna's Aeon's stats are primarily based off her own stats and go up as her stats go up. I've been recently playing this game with a friend again and I know that's true for a fact. The only other way to boost their stats is by using items on them through the item you can win.

Just a FYI. Yuna is a toss up. It wouldn't be so much of a problem if she didn't keep on winning though...
Overpowered? Yes, I think so with the Aeons sometimes, but they are hers. Its not her fault it doesn't work out in the RPGDL perfectly. I allow them, but its up to you.

InfinityDragon

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I find funny how, even in spite of all this talk about violating the rules of a duel by not fighting alone nobody ever addressed the fact that Lady totally doesn't bring the Malice Unbral to fight alongside her in her fight.

Not knowing SH3, I can't comment on it. From what I've heard, it sounds like something I'd ban though, which would probably result in an epic slap fight of a match. Or something.

BaconForTheSoul

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I mean shes already allowed her celestial weapon which is iffy enough....all the aeons two. It's not really a duel when you have someone else fighting your battle. Yuna is a middle/heavy at best without aeons and her celestial weapon. I think rules need to be rewritten

Yes.  2nd best damage in the game, sick speed/evasion, elemental nulling, autolife, shell, protect, decent status protection.  She is a clearcut middle damn her.

Ultradude

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Yuna does lose sometimes, just not that often, which is just like any other High Godlike. I don't think the overpoweredness is really a part of the argument here, just that she's a very high profile incarnation of the issue.

Jou'ou does have a point though, about people who allow some types of multi-part bosses. Granted, I think those who don't allow the multiple parts largely coincide with the Aeon banners?
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BaconForTheSoul

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ID... did you honestly bring a dictionary definition into this and then spam a word that completely rapes your own logic?  Let me explain.

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1.   a prearranged combat between two persons, fought with deadly weapons according to an accepted code of procedure, esp. to settle a private quarrel.

In case you missed the key part:

a prearranged combat between two persons

If it isn't obvious yet!

between two persons

In case you missed that, you're spamming the word persons.

per·son  (pûr'sən)
n.   
A living human. Often used in combination:

AEONS AREN'T HUMANS.  OMG according to the dictionary Pokemon can't duel either.  Wait?!?  We also need deadly weapons for a duel.  That means that people who fight with fists aren't dueling since fists aren't deadly weapons.  Unless fists are deadly weapons?  Shit, that means when I flicked my friends ear he shoulda had me arrested for assault with a deadly weapon since a finger is clearly part of a fist, which is a deadly weapon!  Energy attacks also aren't weapons I would imagine.

Man... I need to go to IDs juristication and break a law just to have some fun in the courtroom.

SageAcrin

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Who cares if it doesn't make sense from a plot perspective--which, by the way, is wrong; it does make sense--they're non-unique from a gameplay perspective and that's all she wrote.

Yeah, because they're exactly the same, both the PC form and the boss form.

Why, even the boss forms are all the same.

Oh wait.

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Again, the plot is largely irrelevant. There's a bunch of stuff in the gameplay of games that is not reflected in the plot. ZOMG there's no plot explanation for Ryu's AP cost for dragons, let's totally disregard it!!!!!!

Yeah, because Yuna often fights other Summoners who have her own Aeons in the DL, hence making the exact point of the mechanics and not the plot of it relevant.

Oh wait.


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Remiem is unsent and can summon every Aeon in the game.

Oh, you mean Belgemine. You're right, of course. I forgot that. Ah well.

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Massively insulting detailing of the word "duel" in explicit detail with bright red letters so that you are really certain ID is being insulting about it and not just trying to have a polite debate.

(I'll admit, I've been sorta dry and tired about this, but damn man. That makes me look practically sacchrine.)

Because everything I mentioned clearly has no outside influence from any other people, places or things and hence is clearly a "duel" in the sense that it's entirely the original person's power.

Oh wait.

In fact, your own precious Ryus are the worst examples; Ryu 1 and 2's powers are ligitimate enough, but Ryu 3's powers outside of Fire and Defender are fusions with the remains of other dragons and Ryu 4's powers consist of fusing with another dragon, in the case of everything but Aura and Berserk Kaiser(Because he needed seven freaking dragons to stabilize Kaiser, mind you.) so fully that he changes into it. Such a representation of his own powers. Oh, and he summons dragons, yeah, such a loner here.

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Nothing in that list is having a wholly different entity fight in the character's stead.

Ah, but why precisely does that matter, when fundamentally this is a plot argument to start with?

For, as I've said, many characters pull in meatshields. Malice Umbral. Chaos Shield. Ryu's dragons.

And many characters do so so fully that they rely on them entirely.

Yet somehow, because Yuna's isn't lashed to her body-no, it just requires her own powers and is clearly connected to her both gameplaywise and plotwise, but isn't quite her, she doesn't have Ixion connected to her or anything, just stands out there by it, kinda like Lavos and his bits, say, a whole *lot* like how Rydia summons things but hey they don't stay out!

...that's...not only a divider, somehow, for some inexplicable reason, but one so clear to you twits that you have been standing by it for years without any freaking attempt to justify how it is special. So clear that you have not even once questioned it. Just to be clear: You have never shown any evidence of examining your own motives on this or following anything but an emotional kneejerk when banning Yuna's Aeons. For, as I said, the list is long as to things that have plot influence of their own. Sentience of their own. Seperate wills of their own. Things that come in and fight for the player.

You're right, ID. You just missed your own point. So long as it's an extension of the dueller's power, which Aeons are in every concievable way, for they do not summon themselves, they do require Yuna, they are connected to her statistically, they are connected to her plotwise, they are connected to her in every way that Ryu's are but physically, it should be allowed.

And you guys should stop bawling people out who have bothered to think this out, especially the ones that have gotten over their own kneejerks and seen my point. Either be consistant or be silent and don't bawl out others because WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH YOU ALLOW AEONS THEY BREAK THE SPIRIT OF THE DUEL WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH without justification.

Ahem. I know I'm sounding harsh, but it's an old argument and somehow none of the Yuna haters are ever content to let something this old lie. I dislike duellers, I dislike some common views of duellers, but I don't bawl every time they get in.

Edit: Dramatization, Sage does not actually think anyone is a twit.

But I do love that word so. It's so dramatic that I couldn't help but use it.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 05:34:50 AM by SageAcrin »
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

"Forget other people's feelings, this is fun and life is but a game and we nought but players in it.  CHECKMATE!  King me and that is Uno." - Grefter

cloudstrifesheart

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yo, chill man....its just a game ;D
I think......I think I want to be forgiven. Mhhm. More than anything.

SageAcrin

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Oh, I'm not angry. ^_^

Just kinda tired. The argument has come up about two thirds of Yuna's runs, and it's far too often nothing along the lines of friendly debate. Rather, it's people who dislike Yuna slamming her randomly.

The worst part of it is, it's so unneeded. Yuna stands a good chance to lose here. I'll look over the math, but as a big Lady supporter(I have one of the DL highest opinions of her. And like her more as a dueller than Yuna, as someone that likes Yuna. Yaaaay possible Lady championship maybe~), Lady'll probably be the one I'm voting for. Sigh.
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

"Forget other people's feelings, this is fun and life is but a game and we nought but players in it.  CHECKMATE!  King me and that is Uno." - Grefter

cloudstrifesheart

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Yes.  2nd best damage in the game, sick speed/evasion, elemental nulling, autolife, shell, protect, decent status protection.  She is a clearcut middle damn her.

I said middle/heavy. It must of been a real long time since ive played FF10, but what storebought equipment allows elemental nulling, auto-life, shell and protect.....and what status protection are you talking about.  Unless she gets all this stuff from her portion of the sphere grid. Is that what the celestial weapon gives her?
I think......I think I want to be forgiven. Mhhm. More than anything.

cloudstrifesheart

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Seriously, I don't hate Yuna. I haven't looked at the rules on this site, just assumed they were basically the same from the bobbincranbud days. It just seems way too many people have way too many views on what should be allowed and what is not allowed which affects the voting for many matchups. Maybe, new rules need to be made.....I don't know
I think......I think I want to be forgiven. Mhhm. More than anything.

SageAcrin

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Status protection's from unique found armors and from storeboughts. Celestial doesn't give her any of that, actually, though it makes her damage less good to not have it.

(Not the Celestial it's self, though, Break Damage Limit does that. It's not a huge hit, since everyone else hurts from lacking Celestials. She mostly gets MP Cost=1 from it.)

Yuna doesn't seem like a kneejerk Godlike without Aeons, honestly. Holy's late, and it's easy to miss her evasion/MDef combo as being as effective as it is. Also easy to forget her speed due to the fact that you often are likely to simply have her Summon something if she's in. She is one, for the most part, but that doesn't make it an obvious package. Reminds me of Rika.
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

"Forget other people's feelings, this is fun and life is but a game and we nought but players in it.  CHECKMATE!  King me and that is Uno." - Grefter

InfinityDragon

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ID... did you honestly bring a dictionary definition into this and then spam a word that completely rapes your own logic?  Let me explain.

Good fucking god. I narrowed the key point down to 2 of 3 words and you still missed the point completely. Whee.

BETWEEN TWO

I hope to all that is sacred and holy that the point is now clear.

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Man... I need to go to IDs juristication and break a law just to have some fun in the courtroom.

Uh oh, my legal skills have been insulted, what shall I do!?!?

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Yeah, because Yuna often fights other Summoners who have her own Aeons in the DL, hence making the exact point of the mechanics and not the plot of it relevant.

Way to miss the point. The point isn't whether two people with equal claim to something will ever face each other. The point is whether that "something" is unique.

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In fact, your own precious Ryus are the worst examples; Ryu 1 and 2's powers are ligitimate enough

Okay, so that's 2 out of 4 you admit to not being offensive.

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but Ryu 3's powers outside of Fire and Defender are fusions with the remains of other dragons

Ahahaha. No. Genes are just the knowledge of how to use a certain inherent trait. The game manual and game text make this explicitly clear. I don't even know how it's possible to have missed this unless you didn't pick up a single bloody gene the entire game or didn't read the game text.

That's three out of four where this argument doesn't apply.

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and Ryu 4's powers consist of fusing with another dragon, in the case of everything but Aura and Berserk Kaiser(Because he needed seven freaking dragons to stabilize Kaiser, mind you.) so fully that he changes into it. Such a representation of his own powers. Oh, and he summons dragons, yeah, such a loner here.

And as I've mentioned many times before, I'm on the fence about Ryu4's non Aura/Kaiser forms. However, since there isn't a gameplay restriction on the uniqueness of those forms (well, Mammoth there is an argument for uniqueness, but who gives a fuck about that form) I'm not inclined to hold that against Ryu4 at the moment. It's a plot argument ONLY, which carries little weight.

So...in the end three of my four "precious Ryus" laugh at your argument while Ryu4 largely doesn't care except perhaps the loss of Stardrop. Noes.

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Ah, but why precisely does that matter, when fundamentally this is a plot argument to start with?

Except it's NOT fundamentally a plot argument, you're just trying to make it one by ignoring the gameplay evidence that Aeons are not unique to Yuna (and thus not an extension of her own power alone, and thus are closer to a separate entity than a part of Yuna). The plot argument is there as a solid buttress because you guys like to argue the plot of this for some reason.

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For, as I've said, many characters pull in meatshields. Malice Umbral. Chaos Shield. Ryu's dragons.

Being a meat shield isn't the problem. Being a non-unique, separate entity is the problem.

Yuna has a litany of problems with Aeons ranging across the board from gameplay, plot, and common sense. Nothing else you have on that list has that many problems (except perhaps Malice Umbral, which I know nothing about), since the majority of those problems on the list are related solely to irrelevant plot concerns.


SageAcrin

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Good good, show that you cannot argue the fundamental point that took up half my post.

You know, the one about extension of dueller power.

You know, like swordsmenship.

(Last I checked, swords are not unique weapons!)

This argument you came up with.

Now that we're clear, can you stop yelling at people? It's old.
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

"Forget other people's feelings, this is fun and life is but a game and we nought but players in it.  CHECKMATE!  King me and that is Uno." - Grefter

Taishyr

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Yeah. Kinda wish the arguments would cool down. I have a weird view of the final fight of SH3, and so just see the entire construct as one thing. But god, I keep forgetting there's a serious argument for me not allowing the form in general (what? I'm actively trying to forget I played the game.)

Still, mmm. I dunno. My reasons why I don't let Aeons/Call team were stated with Jenna, I need to really look at SH3 since thinking on it that may invoke the rule as well, in which case Lady for light. <_< Mrf mrf. Things to consider.

Also, cheese for everyone.

SageAcrin

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Cheese is yummy, but I'm eating creme brulee or however it's spelt right now.

Which is basically jellied cream.

Mmm.

Fat.
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

"Forget other people's feelings, this is fun and life is but a game and we nought but players in it.  CHECKMATE!  King me and that is Uno." - Grefter