Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 49

[Nephrite]

"Some close calls there... I wonder if you've still got it in you to keep going?"


Team Super vs. Dungeon Floor 5
Team MOUSTACHE and dude vs. Dungeon Floor 4

Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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Team Super | Edgar, Maxim(Speed?), Zemeckis and Hydra, Hawk, Kyra
[Floor 6a: Underachievers (Before Endgame)
Team Super vs. Largo, Sync and Legretta
Team Super vs. Cyril, Decus and Vesper
Team Super vs. Miguel and Queen Zeal
*Full Heal*
Team Super vs. Zio and Zera Valmar
Team Super vs. Emelious and Melfice

Team MOUSTACHE | Athos, Adray, Moulder, Bartz with a Moustache, Alakazam (MOUSTACHE Sealstone)
[Bartz: Monk (M), Blue Mage (M), Chemist (M), Red Mage (M), Time Mage (M) Ninja/Blackmage]
[Athos has second rank Anima and Status staves]
[Floor 5a: Ceaseheal (After Midgame)]
*On this floor, restoration of HP and MP can heal a maximum of 10% HP and MP and revival may not be used.
Team vs. Reno, Rude and Elena (Midgar forms)
Team vs. Krin, Karn and Locke
Team vs. Yulie and Yukiko
Team vs. Mua, Fred and Cecil
Team vs. Berle

Team dude | Deis2, Emily, Jerin, Bowswer (Speed?), FFT Priest
[Floor 5a: Ceaseheal (After Midgame)]
*On this floor, restoration of HP and MP can heal a maximum of 10% HP and MP and revival may not be used.
Team vs. Reno, Rude and Elena (Midgar forms)
Team vs. Krin, Karn and Locke
Team vs. Yulie and Yukiko
Team vs. Mua, Fred and Cecil
Team vs. Berle


Speed? - The speed of the bearer is set to 120% average speed and may not be increased. The rest of the team is set to 95% of their normal speed (not set to 95% period) and may have their speed increased.

MOUSTACHE - Allows the team to have 12 points because of the power of 'stache.


Super, if you want the Speed? stone on someone else just tell me.

[Random Consonant]

I'm not sure I see a way for super getting past the last fight even assuming he can make it there with everyone alive.  As best as I can tell, both Emolicious and Melfice go before everyone on his team and pretty much ream him one way or another.  Stalling's no good due to the speed split, and the team can't really blitz one of them to make things manageable due to the physical evasion and Shh!.  I guess he could get lucky with DEBILITATOR HYPE and get a weakness Kyra can smack Melfice with, but it's both highly unlikely and as near as I can tell not guarenteed to save him.  Edit: And after hashing things out he doesn't even get that far because he explodes to the SO2 fight.  Fail for Team super.

Other two teams pass.  Dude's team blitzes well enough here and I think Yoshi manages as well.

[superaielman]

Voting for a fail for me at the moment. SO2 fight is ugly in particular offhand. If I make it to the final fight entirely intact, I should win-Melfice/Emo have to blitz Maxim, which means Kyra can raise defense and Hawk can lower Grandia duo's attack. Hawk+Tiamat (breath)+Edgar+Zemeckis's best damage puts Melfice in bad shape, and the team can't kill anyone next turn. But! There's the slight problem of that SO2 fight. So yeah, fail.

Edit: Definitely fail. WoD and Explode both being MT is way too much.

Team Dude

Team vs. Reno, Rude and Elena (Midgar forms)- Blitz, smash.
Team vs. Krin, Karn and Locke- Leaving one PC alive to heal up any damage? Sure, works. I doubt Dude's team is going to suffer much damage here.
Team vs. Yulie and Yukiko- Em should one round Yulie. Yukiko may get a turn... maybe... but I seriously doubt it.
Team vs. Mua, Fred and Cecil- Death Mua or Fred, coast from there.
Team vs. Berle- I don't respect Berle as a slugger enough for this. Em and Deis are going to put him a world of hurt before he can really go, and Priest gets some milage from defensive buffs here.

[Nephrite]

Speed?'s been moved to Maxim for Super's team.

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Super fails. Really can't handle enemy MT, and they get splattered in the second fight. A few people might make it out, but then get splattered by Miguel near straightaway.

Team MOUSTACHE | Athos, Adray, Moulder, Bartz with a Moustache, Alakazam (MOUSTACHE Sealstone)
[Bartz: Monk (M), Blue Mage (M), Chemist (M), Red Mage (M), Time Mage (M) Ninja/Blackmage]
[Athos has second rank Anima and Status staves]

I am assuming that Bartz is...a Ninja (94% HP, 107% Speed). However, one flaw is I question whether Mirage Village is accessible (looks kind of floor 6ish). If so, no Quick, no Meteor.
[Floor 5a: Ceaseheal (After Midgame)]
*On this floor, restoration of HP and MP can heal a maximum of 10% HP and MP and revival may not be used.
Team vs. Reno, Rude and Elena (Midgar forms)- Team shouldn't have issues here, but it is of note that the Turks will aim at Alakazam who may come out with some damage taken. Alakazam can open with reflect, but still gets a really heavy portion of his HP eaten up.
Team vs. Krin, Karn and Locke- I think Alakazam dies here. There are a few things that can keep him alive maybe. If he outspeeds Karn (that's very close. Both are around 1.4 SD above average) and Reflect halves Locke's attack inspite of being ITD, he has a decent chance (Still...really not good). Under these assumptions, he takes 25+12+8ish maybe or .42 to his 0.55 Pdur. Needless to say, he probably needs both assumptions and also needs to come in without any damage. I just dont' see all this occuring. The team doesn't have problems after that.
Team vs. Yulie and Yukiko- Yukiko likely gets off an MT spell, but I guess they can restatus her and just heal a lot.
Team vs. Mua, Fred and Cecil- All three enemies here do about 39%. Assuming Bartz is going…Blue Mage? I guess they can get through with 3 healers in tact as they enemies can probably kill Adray if desired.
Team vs. Berle- And they should be okay here with 3 healers, with Big Guard…no wait, was Big Guard floor 6. At this point, I’m abstaining for a bit. Headaches.

Dude passes. Straightforward

[Nephrite]

Black Mage has Toad, which can be MTed, for what it's worth.

[Dhyerwolf]

Not much. Not getting Yulie turn 1, and I see Fred/Mua as both blocking a status of their choice at least if not all.

[dude789]

Team dude | Deis2, Emily, Jerin, Bowswer (Speed?), FFT Priest
[Floor 5a: Ceaseheal (After Midgame)]
*On this floor, restoration of HP and MP can heal a maximum of 10% HP and MP and revival may not be used.
Team vs. Reno, Rude and Elena (Midgar forms): Might take some damage but it's nothing significant. All are taken down at turn two at the latest.
Team vs. Krin, Karn and Locke: Same as above, Karn or someone might sneak in a turn before they get taken out but it's nothing major.
Team vs. Yulie and Yukiko: Neither get turns. Deis and Jerin Dizzy Yukiko and Emily obliterates Yulie. Priest drops a minor heal on someone if needed.
Team vs. Mua, Fred and Cecil: Fred and Mua aren't threatening enough. Emily and Deis ensure that one of them gets take out immediately and they go into the last fight in good shape.
Team vs. Berle: Berle's damage isn't that threatening and Priest and Jerin can slow it down if needed. While this is happening Deis2 is buffing up Emily and Bowser's attack to insane levels and they blow him up when he drops the guard.

Abstain on Team Mustache. Alakazam is pretty frail now and I'm not sure how quickly he gets taken out.

I think Super's team fails. Not enough speed to really blitz or set up on the fast and brutal opponents on this floor.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Bartz question: Is Bartz allowed to change his Job setup between battles? If not, then Fail for Team Moustache. He can't get Ninja/BlackMagic/BlueMagic all at once, and he probably needs all of those.

Fail for Team Super.
Pass for Team Dude.

[Nephrite]

You know what? Yes, he can, he just sacrifices whatever job he has to change from (probably Black magic)

[DjinnAndTonic]

Sacrifices? Like... he can't use that job again on this Floor? What about re-equipping?

[Random Consonant]

He needs to stay in the job for the entire floor to master it.

[Nephrite]

Correct. There was some debate about it last floor but it seemed most didn't have any issue with him changing so I left it, but if a majority say "He needs to sacrifice Black Magic here for Blue Magic" then he loses that... for all that Black Magic doesn't really give you anything.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Huh... I just have an issue with Bartz being able to change his entire Job setup, but other characters are locked into certain equipment sets for the entire floor.  At least, that's the interp I had been taking with equipment/skills, unless characters could actually reequip on the fly/in-battle. IIRC, FF5 didn't allow job-switching midbattle?

I suppose it would be fine to allow him to switch at FullHeals, though. I've always thought of those as 'opening the menu and item-spamming your team back to full'.

[Yoshiken]

On the flip-side, if it were done differently, there would be literally no point in changing classes. If Blue Magic is needed and you don't allow changing jobs during the floor, then I'll start with Blue Magic - Black Magic shouldn't be needed for anything that Blue Magic can cover, right?
So yeah, it makes logical sense, given what Bartz does, to allow him to change Jobs. If you don't, then I don't have Black Magic.

As per usual, I know very little about what's happening on this floor, so kinda need to see arguments before I can make any kind of fair judgement.
(...I need to play more games. ;_; )

[Random Consonant]

Not sure how much this matters since I haven't taken a very close look, but Athos does have Sleep/Silence/Berserk staves available to him at this point.  I let him have first strike with those since they have, what, 15 range in his hands (hey, stupid stupid long range is an advantage that I have no real problems with letting translate).  I do hold them to maximum range penalty on the first stike turn, but even with that it's still landing turn 1 even assuming against endgame PC RES (73% listed accuracy, for reference.  Due to FE7 using two RNG rolls to determine if an attack hits or not, this is actually better than it looks on paper), which is the harshest reasonable assumption here to me.  Just thought I'd throw that out there, for all that I'd agree that Bartz would need to switch to something with more status variety if you don't allow Athos first strike with status staves, or if he needs to use the same one more than three times/all of them too many times for that matter.  I've just been operating under the assumption that Bartz could.

[Nephrite]

Black Mage has access to:

Sleep: (3 MP) Inflicts Sleep, 90% base hit rate.
Toad: (8 MP) Inflicts Toad, 80% base hit rate. Toad drops Attack to 3, Defense and Evade to 0, and renders the target unable to cast any spells but Toad.
Break: (15 MP) Inflicts Stone, 75% base hit rate.
Doom: (29 MP) Inflicts instant death, 80% base hit rate.

Sleep and Toad can be MTed.

[SnowFire]

Team dude passes.  I'll buy the blitz.

Team Stache I await more arguments on.  Checking the FF5 topic, the speed spread is tighter than I recall, which is weird, since I seem to recall Thief/Ninja speed being pretty badass.  It claims it's only 107% speed in practice, though.  That won't be enough to outrace a bunch of the speedsters and status them out.  Athos might handle it with free-turn staves, but unsure if I'm willing to give him that since I don't think that's priced in or expected - they'd be first-strike at best in this case, and only hit one target.  Call it a very very tentative fail but entirely willing to be convinced otherwise.

[Random Consonant]

Athos might handle it with free-turn staves, but unsure if I'm willing to give him that since I don't think that's priced in or expected

Not sure what you mean by this, since the guidelines *and the opening post* pretty explicitly state they're part of his package by now.

[SnowFire]

I meant giving Athos a free initiative turn *in addition* to his turn 1.  I forget which FE7 boss, but the one that has Bolting?  In the DL, I'd give her a free Bolting turn, and then start the match per normal (which may mean they're still equipped with the counter-less Bolting if their opponent is faster than them, so they may not want to do it always).  This is pretty ridiculously awesome in the Dungeon.  So I'd be willing to change it to "first strike" where Athos's turn 1 is moved up to near-initiative, but not give him an extra turn.

[Random Consonant]

Oh.  Yeah, I think I'd agree with you there.

That said, given that mitigation is the name of the game here the idea was that it'd help Yoshi's team shut down some key threats, given that on F5 they're not really missing barring status resistance or high MDef.  THAT said, since I am no longer being lazy.  Sleeps the main thing and that's lasting... 4 turns I think?  I know there's some factor to FE status duration but I can't remember if it's just random or if it actually depends on stats.

Team vs. Reno, Rude and Elena (Midgar forms) - Mmm, Elena can do a bit of damage to 'zam with the first strike throw, but past that Yoshi's team can blitz down the Turks well enough.  'zam can throw up Reflect (Reflect's Lv28, so I'd say he definitely has it) to make matters easier, and they can probably leave Elena alive for a bit to heal up, since she's the least threatening of the three.

Team vs. Krin, Karn and Locke - Some speed/damage analysis, Krin is 200 speed to a 124.5 (30.6 SD) average, which  puts him at +2.46 SD, or somewhere in the neighbourhood of 160~% to me.  Damage is *brb kicking Suiko1 stat topic* yeah right now I am just going to say screw it and call Krin's damage somewhere around ~20%.  Karn, well looks like Dhyer's lowballing the speed but he's also lowballing 'zam's too (Karn sits around +1.55, extrapolation based on the ranked topic puts 'zam at +1.6, that assumes FRLG average though, I'd assume Gen4 is a bit slower due to the SDs being a bit larger but I'd lean strongly in his favor anyways) so 'zam still outspeeds.  Could be missing something there but either way this doesn't really challenge any assumptions that've been made.  Damage is... 29% on a non-crit to me.  Locke... sits around 25%, so assuming they all focus fire on 'zam and 'zam throws up Reflect after Krin goes, that's 20+14.5+12, which... isn't enough assuming 'zam's at full HP.  So, under my assumptions, Athos uses puts Krin to sleep and then Karn and Locke... don't do much.  So, 'zam may well not die in this fight, assuming he's been healed up before hand.  Bartz drops some status on Karn to prevent him from getting a lucky chain of crits in and then things are all over but the crying, team heals up while Krin is still asleep and they move on.  The main problem is either Karn getting a crit in on turn 1 (which would let Locke finish 'zam off) if you don't allow Athos initiative with status staves or don't see it as outspeeding Krin or 'zam not being healed up enough to survie the normal damage.   Continuing along the assumption that 'zam lives though...

Team vs. Yulie and Yukiko - I... don't see any status healing on Yulie.  So Athos is dropping Sleep on Yukiko (she can halve Silence, so that's no good, and FE Berserk... may not help).  Miori Shirt evade doesn't matter here since FE status staves pretty clearly ignore normal evasion.  By the time she wakes up the Miori Shirt boost out to have worn off anyways.  I guess if you force defender's definition of status resistance here they could run into some trouble.  Yulie can Sacrifice but it's not killing anyone, leaves her in a fine position to get killed, and the team heals up while Yukiko still snoozes.

Team vs. Mua, Fred and Cecil - If Fred/Mua want to avoid being hosed over by Frog then they're sleep bait.  That said... 'zam outspeeds both Fred/Mua to me (though with Fred it's close), so if he's still alive he throws up Reflect, Athos puts one of the two to sleep with his last Sleep staff charge, Bartz hits the other with Break... which leaves the question of Cecil, who can probably be managed well enough despite immuning Toad and Break.  Edit due to Randomderp: Cecil has Esuna!  Don't think that's enough and apparently he can be put to sleep as well.  Unless you go by FF4DS Cecil!  Still not sure if that's enough.

Team vs. Berle - And if my assumptions hold they take this fight without too much trouble.  Berle's unimpressive damage means that the healers can keep up well enough.

Yeah, I'd agree that Yoshi's team needs some of the judgment calls I'm making here to make it, so I can see people saying he fails, but they're calls that I don't see much trouble with making.  If I've made a faulty assumption here point it out, since my overall knowledge of this floor is pretty bad.

[SnowFire]

I think I'm harsher than Random - notably I'd let S3 Yellow Scarfs stop everything but ID - but sure, I'll change my vote to a pass on 'stache anyway.