Author Topic: Proving grounds L/M- Sylvando slapfights ahoy!  (Read 2409 times)

superaielman

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Proving grounds L/M- Sylvando slapfights ahoy!
« on: April 20, 2021, 06:09:29 PM »
Sylvando-(DQ11) Dragon Quest 11's resident Paladin/Jester mix. Something of a boss fighter in game, definitely questionable how he translates to the DL.
Endir (I Am Setsuna)- I am Setsuna's main character. Decent stats but nothing outstanding.
Caspar (FE3H)- Three houses is well liked/why not.
Ramza (FFT)- Talk about the king of bad DL translations. The gap in DL rank between him and the wonder twins is depressingly small.
Kylin (SaGa)- Saga Remaster? Good. Kylin? Less good. The master of space magic is stuck as a monster.


Sylvando (DQ11) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Sylvando vs Red Mage (FF5)
Sylvando vs Alice (SH1)
Sylvando vs Meru (LoD)
Sylvando vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Sylvando vs Rasputin (SH2)
Sylvando vs Umaro (FF6)
Sylvando vs Tim (WA2)
Sylvando vs Logg (S5)
Sylvando vs Menardi (GS)
Sylvando vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Sylvando vs Oswin (FE7)

Endir (I Am Setsuna) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Endir vs Red Mage (FF5)
Endir vs Alice (SH1)
Endir vs Meru (LoD)
Endir vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Endir vs Rasputin (SH2)
Endir vs Umaro (FF6)
Endir vs Tim (WA2)
Endir vs Logg (S5)
Endir vs Menardi (GS)
Endir vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Endir vs Oswin (FE7)

Caspar (FE3H) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Caspar vs Red Mage (FF5)
Caspar vs Alice (SH1)
Caspar vs Meru (LoD)
Caspar vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Caspar vs Rasputin (SH2)
Caspar vs Umaro (FF6)
Caspar vs Tim (WA2)
Caspar vs Logg (S5)
Caspar vs Menardi (GS)
Caspar vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Caspar vs Oswin (FE7)

Ramza (FFT) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Ramza vs Red Mage (FF5)
Ramza vs Alice (SH1)
Ramza vs Meru (LoD)
Ramza vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Ramza vs Rasputin (SH2)
Ramza vs Umaro (FF6)
Ramza vs Tim (WA2)
Ramza vs Logg (S5)
Ramza vs Menardi (GS)
Ramza vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Ramza vs Oswin (FE7)


Kylin (SaGa) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Kylin vs Red Mage (FF5)
Kylin vs Alice (SH1)
Kylin vs Meru (LoD)
Kylin vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Kylin vs Rasputin (SH2)
Kylin vs Umaro (FF6)
Kylin vs Tim (WA2)
Kylin vs Logg (S5)
Kylin vs Menardi (GS)
Kylin vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Kylin vs Oswin (FE7)
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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving grounds L/M- Sylvando slapfights ahoy!
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2021, 08:03:38 PM »
I could vote on Sylvando but eh, sorting out how to take Act 3 nonsense if at all.

Caspar (FE3H) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG) - Golem no likey getting punched, Caspar quads with Silver Gauntlets and that's that.
Caspar vs Red Mage (FF5) - Tomebreaker in 3H is nowhere near as good as it is in Awakening/Fates which makes Mini turn 1 no matter what and if he wants to benefit he's surely in that zone where I'd see him going second anyways.
Caspar vs Alice (SH1) - I dunno, even if Caspar can quad with gauntlets here (he probably does, he's not that far from doing it to average and Alice is, however technically, below), Panties/Gospel is something of a hurdle to climb.  Should probably consider what War Master's higher crit rate is actually worth here. e: yeah really doubt that Caspar gets lucky enough.
Caspar vs Meru (LoD) - Goes first, transforms to avoid being pasted by a Brave Axe, should double and kill with Freezing Ring first.
Caspar vs Leo (Lunar:EBC) - Seriously, don't let yourself eat quad fist.
Caspar vs Rasputin (SH2) - Caspar might miss the quad fist ORKO here but it so doesn't matter.
Caspar vs Umaro (FF6) - wait holy crap did I brainfart here, it's Umaro jeez way to go me.
Caspar vs Tim (WA2) - Quad fist ORKO.
Caspar vs Logg (S5) - Surely heal locks.
Caspar vs Menardi (GS) - Menardi can either double, in which case she eats counters she can't afford, or she can avoid counters, but since her magic is all MT she doesn't double and like 5HKOs.
Caspar vs Ruprecht (SO2) - Eh, sure, "Ruprecht sucks" works
Caspar vs Oswin (FE7) - Well Oswin is slow enough to let Caspar double with a Silver Axe, which he's probably gonna want to do here.  He 8RKOs this way ignoring crits, while Oswin is effectively 6-7HKOing back (3HKO at base, but partial WTD/Lancebreaker means he's missing over half the time.)  That said, War Master does get that crit boost and Oswin's own luck should be below average if anything, so this is at least close.  Think I'm gonna hold off a bit here. e: derp, killer axe makes this completely irrelevent, nvm.

Ramza (FFT) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG) - This is your friendly reminder that ground types are weak to ice.
Ramza vs Red Mage (FF5) - Yeah I dunno, Ramza can answer RM's shenanigans pretty well but actually putting RM away is another matter, and I'm not sure "pretty well" is actually good enough.
Ramza vs Alice (SH1)
Ramza vs Meru (LoD)
Ramza vs Leo (Lunar:EBC) - Kneejerking that he outslugs
Ramza vs Rasputin (SH2) - Ice Brand setup is good enough for this.
Ramza vs Umaro (FF6) - I guess?
Ramza vs Tim (WA2) - Iunno, Tim is really frail and an Ice Brand setup should heal lock without too much trouble.  It's entirely possible that Ramza won't actually kill without a max damage crit, but what the heck is Tim doing in the meantime?
Ramza vs Logg (S5)
Ramza vs Menardi (GS) - Menardi's water/ice weakness means Ramza really shouldn't be struggling much here, I'm not sure he even needs the Angel Ring here under my views.
Ramza vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Ramza vs Oswin (FE7)

Kylin (SaGa) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Kylin vs Red Mage (FF5)
Kylin vs Alice (SH1)
Kylin vs Meru (LoD)
Kylin vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Kylin vs Rasputin (SH2)
Kylin vs Umaro (FF6)
Kylin vs Tim (WA2) - whoops dispel lol
Kylin vs Logg (S5)
Kylin vs Menardi (GS) - Kylin has about the same level of offense as Menardi at base, but well, y'know, -0.5 SD speed plus that 0.71 slash durability means Menardi outslugs handily.
Kylin vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Kylin vs Oswin (FE7)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 09:30:42 AM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving grounds L/M- Sylvando slapfights ahoy!
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2021, 04:57:28 AM »
I vote on act 2 in principle... but we don't have numbers for that. Fortunately act 3 is close enough to my memories generally. For Sylvando, the main thing he loses is Last Stand I guess, and his statusblockers get worse.

Sylvando (DQ11) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG): Depends how good Sylvando's status is? Golem 2HKOs but Sylvando can probably land a status before then... maybe? Yeah, Pied Piper looks good enoguh for this, especially since Sylv can be safe and heal after it lands.
Sylvando vs Red Mage (FF5): Faster, lands some sort of nasty status first.
Sylvando vs Alice (SH1): Just tosses out charm and healing until Alice runs out of SP.
Sylvando vs Meru (LoD): Gets 400 SP then goes dragoon and should just overwhelm him at that point, I think? She's so much faster.
Sylvando vs Leo (Lunar:EBC): Leo's not so different than Golem.
Sylvando vs Rasputin (SH2): Should be able to attrition this out. Rasputin has an argument if you see SP Lowering doing anything to non-SH characters, too bad I don't.
Sylvando vs Umaro (FF6): Umaro kinda sucks against healers.
Sylvando vs Tim (WA2): Charm and overwhelm.
Sylvando vs Logg (S5): Yep.
Sylvando vs Ruprecht (SO2): Ruprecht sucks.
Sylvando vs Oswin (FE7): Sylvando 5HKOs, but doubles. Oswin 3HKOs with a Javelin. Oswin wins that slugfest. Sylvando can heal but not really press an offence outside of charm. So he alternates charm and healing... except he needs to charm a lot more than he heals, and I don't think I'd see charm shutting off counters.


Endir (I Am Setsuna) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG): Magic damage blitz.
Endir vs Red Mage (FF5): Endir's a little faster, but doesn't win with one turn.
Endir vs Alice (SH1): Can out-turtle her. Might even be able to blitz since mdur is Alice's weak point.
Endir vs Meru (LoD): I don't think Endir can open with Battlecry/damage, because Meru just doubles him right after and murders? (She gets 3 turns before Endir gets 2.4) And without that level of opening pressure, Meru's free to just start tossing some mix of physicals and Freezing Rings to tie up Endir until she doubles him I think. Open to arguments though.
Endir vs Leo (Lunar:EBC): Probably. Faster and controls the fight generally.
Endir vs Rasputin (SH2): I think?
Endir vs Umaro (FF6): Heals and smites. Umaro offence sucks.
Endir vs Tim (WA2): Battlecry->Meteo isn't anywhere near OHKO normally... but it is with momentum (it's around 90% damage then) and Endir gets that pretty fast if he waits? Like before Tim's second natural turn. And Tim isn't doing much with one turn.
Endir vs Logg (S5): Both have a very hard time breaking past each other's healing... but Endir needs to spend MP to make Logg heal? A bit? Actually not really, once he has momentum, he can threaten with two physicals. Logg, meanwhile, makes Endir heal with three physicals (each heal erases two, so they're even after the opening shot, which offsets Endir's need to amass momentum). But the rest... Endir is faster. Endir can only heal 10 times before eating into his kill, but Logg can only heal 6 times, period. It adds up to a clear Endir win.
Endir vs Ruprecht (SO2): Nope.
Endir vs Oswin (FE7): Oswin's a tough customer to blitz. Meteo only does 28%, 46% after Battlecry. Two Battlecry-Meteos don't win and they eat all his MP! Endir can build momentum by healing off Oswin's strikes I guess? But that... massively eats into his resources. He can also just skip a turn early in the fight but again he'll need to heal to live. And one momentum Battlecry+Meteo plus one regular Meteo still isn't enough to kill. Oswin is just too much better than Logg; can't be threatened with physical damage, more mdur, kills in one hit less. Don't see how Endir can take this.


Caspar (FE3H) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG): Probably one-rounds with Silver Gauntlets, doesn't have to.
Caspar vs Red Mage (FF5): Caspar is horrifically status-bait.
Caspar vs Alice (SH1): Even is Caspar quads (itself not a given), he misses a 2RKO, before Gospel.
Caspar vs Meru (LoD): One-rounds with a Brave Axe.
Caspar vs Leo (Lunar:EBC): Probably quads, so that's too much offence.
Caspar vs Rasputin (SH2): 2RKO with Brave Axe.
Caspar vs Umaro (FF6): Just gives Caspar too much time. Doesn't help that he triggers counters sometimes. (YOU KNOW, LIKE IN-GAME. SCREW YOU UMARO.)
Caspar vs Tim (WA2): Someone else slow enough for Caspar to quad, and this one just dies outright because it's Tim.
Caspar vs Logg (S5): I don't think Logg's slow enough to get quadded to me (could be argued), so he's only 3RKOed, but... yeah the counters are too much. Unless ICY POISON can save him. Land that right away and heal until Caspar is in kill range? Honestly that probably works. Helps that Logg has a little flexibility to reapply it if it wears off (not sure if it does).
Caspar vs Ruprecht (SO2): lulz.
Caspar vs Oswin (FE7): I dunno if I take Oswin's 4.5 pdur literally all the time, but against gauntlets? Yeah for sure. And since Brave Axe doesn't double I doubt Silver Axe is going to notably exceed gauntlet damage even with some subtractive defence adjustment. And taken literally, Caspar 6RKOs (including his doubles) while Oswin 3RKOs. No amount of crit hype is gonna tilt that for me.

Ramza (FFT) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG): Even if you don't see Ramza doubling in time, Earth Clothes/Twist Headband/Ice Brand 3HKOs while not being 2HKOed back by Rock Blast.
Ramza vs Red Mage (FF5): Ramza has a bunch of tools to slow Red Mage down, between Aegis Shield and various blockers but... is it enough? Ramza surely blocks sleep (otherwise RM has an accurate spammable match-winning option), RM responds with Toad+Mini. If Ramza keeps the Thief Hat he fails to 2HKO so Red Mage just alternates status with healing at worst. If Ramza goes for Twist Headband he can 2HKO but now Red Mage is faster, hard to believe she can't land something decisive in four status attempts. ... and Red Mage even has Protect, yeesh. Not actually close.
Ramza vs Alice (SH1): Physicals bad here, Ultima it is. Even with his +mag setup, Ultima is a 3HKO on Alice at best (her Mdef might push that down further), which doesn't work against a healer. Alice alternates heals and books until Ramza's in kill range (Ramza's HP is garbage with the Wizard Robe he needs for a 3HKO).
Ramza vs Meru (LoD): Ice Shield goes a long way here. Headache of a match, Ramza 2HKOs Meru outside dragoon (4HKO otherwise). Meru can heal half her health. I think she goes for her 400 SP build to get four turns in a row of dragoon. She'll need to heal on turns 3 and 5 (detransforming after), repeat on 8 and 10, repeat on 13 and kill on 15? That's... five physical attacks in dragoon and three outside, before any doubles. That probably works actually. Huh. Ramza can try for assassin instead I guess, at that point he puts on way less pressure so Meru gets more attacks in, and I *think* she still wins but it's closer. Admittedly this last part is somewhat a kneejerk against Assassin Dagger whenever possible vote.
Ramza vs Leo (Lunar:EBC): Ramza is faster and 4HKOs if he's lucky, Leo isn't failing to 3HKO.
Ramza vs Rasputin (SH2): Think so.
Ramza vs Umaro (FF6): A good test for how far Umaro has fallen in my views. Ramza 5HKOs, Umaro 4HKOs. A timely shield block might save Ramza but Umaro can dodge too and Umaro's attacks have a 63% chance to be ITE (and that's where his better damage comes from to boot), so... I don't think so.
Ramza vs Tim (WA2): Power-optimized Ramza does indeed 2HKO while still being faster. Tim's only hope is to do something decisive in one turn. And... actually he can do that, Tim's 100 FP summon surely OHKOs a Ramza who has dumped his HP with a Twist Headband. The issue here is... ugh, speed interp issues. So in-game if Tim is 2HKOed by someone faster he can't ever stop spamming First Aid because as soon as he does he gets doubled immediately and dies.
Ramza vs Logg (S5): Ramza may not even 3HKO with power optimization, and at that point it's a tossup as to who's faster to boot. Even if you make both calls for Ramza, that's a lot of times for Logg to alternate healing and attacking, enough to win since his damage isn't horrid (3HKO against power Ramza).
Ramza vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Ramza vs Oswin (FE7): Ramza can magic-optimize Ultima and watch it still only 4HKO while he now dies in two hits, that'd be great. If you see Ultima doubling (I'm not sure) it can also be countered so I don't think that helps.


Kylin is slow, frail, but has turn 2 instant death. How far can that go...?

Kylin (SaGa) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG): Sturdy blocks death... but Kylin blocks ground. Kylin 5HKOs but should 5-4, so Golem gets three Rock Blasts. That probably kills. Kylin wishes its stun rate wasn't 0%.
Kylin vs Red Mage (FF5): Red Mage really needs toad to work, since Kylin immunes everything else. Kylin has to not be immune to it, then Red Mage has to land it through Kylin's status defence (and doublecasting it is very dangerous!). The fact that Toad has terrible coverage in FF5 makes me kneejerk for Kylin here.
Kylin vs Alice (SH1): Alice can block death, which leaves Kylin trying to stall with regen? Yeah I doubt that works, Alice damage is fine here.
Kylin vs Meru (LoD): Not with that ice defence, pal.
Kylin vs Leo (Lunar:EBC): Kylin's barely faster, lands Vanish before dying. Leo can outspeed with a much weaker sword but I doubt he 2HKOs with that.
Kylin vs Rasputin (SH2): Instant death immune.
Kylin vs Umaro (FF6): Not instant death immune.
Kylin vs Tim (WA2): Tim has Thanatos X! So as long as Kylin doesn't ID him first try, Tim wins easily (First Aid easily destroys Kylin damage). EDIT: whoops, forgot about Vortex. Yep, Kylin wins that confrontation, eventually landing Vanish attempt #2.
Kylin vs Logg (S5): Logg is a bit faster but fails to 2HKO, so Vanish does its thing.
Kylin vs Ruprecht (SO2): Oh dear god what is this. Kylin's regen shuts down Ruprecht's damage, but could the MP damage run Kylin out of JP? Probably not, especially since Kylin might well immune it.
Kylin vs Oswin (FE7): Faster, 2HKOs, his Res is actually average so Vanish isn't turn 1.

Endir 8-3
Sylvando 8-3
Caspar 7-4
Kylin 6-5
Ramza 4-7

This field is certainly more Middle than it is Light, but Ramza probably is closer to the border. The others are varying degrees of better, but none are close to Heavy I don't think.

Speaking of the field:

Oswin 5-0
Red Mage 4-1
Meru 4-1 (though she was closer to losing matches than RM certainly)
Alice 3-2
Logg 2-3
Golem 1-4
Leo 1-4
Rasputin 1-4
Umaro 1-4
Ruprecht 0-5
Tim 0-5
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 03:14:41 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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SnowFire

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Re: Proving grounds L/M- Sylvando slapfights ahoy!
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2021, 08:38:30 PM »
For DQ11 Act 2 voters, as Elf already noted, Sylvando loses Grand Stand's Def buffing.  He also loses Finger of Justice, but Gold Rush vs. a lower damage average should have similar results on psuedomagic defense-ignoring damage.  The good news is that Re-Moreheal is relatively more potent...  still not good, but max HP scores will be lower.  There's also the usual worse elemental / status spoiling.

Sylvando (DQ11) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Other than status getting the drop on Golem, he has to contend with Sylvando equipping for Earth resistance.
Sylvando vs Red Mage (FF5)
Can't block Mini/Toad.
Sylvando vs Alice (SH1)
Sylvando matches up poorly against many healers, but...  not Alice, whom he can outstall with Light resistance before running her out of SP.  Might not even need it.
Sylvando vs Meru (LoD)
Sylvando can buff his own Agility...  gets into TB speed hype, since Meru's ATB speed is definitely better than even max TB speed, but might be enough to stall Dragoon doubles, at the cost of Sylv turns?  But more generally, Meru's damage is just kinda unimpressive..  the physical part rams into occasional evasion / shield blocking (it's a 4HKO).  I think if Sylvando could get his full defensive suite going, he can probably weather the assault barring stun-on-weapon hype (which Sylvando can reduce a bit with accessories if hyped anyway).  Flip side, maybe Meru puts on so much pressure he never gets to that, which is I guess what Elf was hyping...  go for the double-SP weapon and spam 3 spells for ~4200 LoD damage and a final attack vs. Sylv's 0.95 PCHP, at least if you're skeptical of letting Sylvando spoil Ice too hard with accessories, although she'd like to dodge that first Pied Piper to avoid Sylv setting up more buffs.  I think that comes down to Re-Moreheal mechanics and if repeatedly recasting it can sneak out a bit more healing, or if that just resets the regen clock.  May require research!  Even if the blitz strategy doesn't work, it's possible a physical Meru setup wears down Sylv if he's in full defensive mode constantly.
Sylvando vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Slow and status-bait.
Sylvando vs Rasputin (SH2)
Non-elemental magic damage does the trick.  If you disrespect SH2 boss HP Rasputin loses of course, but he is 3HKOing Sylvando at worst and if Sylvando spends a turn on Re-Moreheal, that's a turn he isn't spending on blitzing Rasputin out with his own 4-5HKO for the higher respect SH2 boss HP.
Sylvando vs Umaro (FF6)
Umaro sucks.  (He gets his own personal damage average that is way higher of Actual In-Game Setups with DL-illegal equipment & Esper stat boosting & learned magic.)
Sylvando vs Tim (WA2)
Status bait and slow.
Sylvando vs Logg (S5)
S5 does have Yellow Scarves, but Logg completely sucks at putting pressure on Sylvando, even if he had flat status immunity.
Sylvando vs Ruprecht (SO2)
I don't remember Ruprecht at all, but stat topic claims he sucks.
Sylvando vs Oswin (FE7)
Who goes first, the below-average move character or the only mildly below average TB speed character?  If Sylv goes first, I'm pretty sure he wins w/ Act 3 hype, the defensive buffing game + setting up Sword Stance + shield blocks + regen spoil Oswin pretty good.  If he goes second, then Oswin skips a Javelin and just tries to stab him very hard with a Silver Lance and hopes Sylvando gets unlucky on Piped Piper hitting, or getting a short duration on it.  Anyway, if Sylvando survives that crucial opening assault, I think he's safe - he can ensure Oswin skips a lot of turns to let him regenerate and refresh his defensive buffs, then eventually start throwing ITD damage at Oswin's HP directly.  Very coin-flippy but I'll lean Sylvando here.  (Act 2 Sylvando loses the Def buffing, which he really really likes for cases like Fire Emblem duelers.)

Endir: Is a good Middle to my recollection, mostly held back by MP concerns if he tries to use his best damage.  He can be just a boring healer who eventually gets Momentum & Singularities though.  Can also sometimes get lucky defense boosts when Battlecry turns line up right.

Endir (I Am Setsuna) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Meteo his Golem's bad MDurability.
Endir vs Red Mage (FF5)
Not beating dualcast status effects, though.
Endir vs Alice (SH1)
Endir can just heal until Alice runs out of SP.
Endir vs Meru (LoD)
This is interesting.  Meru has a 5:4 here (1.29 spd vs. 1.04 spd).  Normally I totally disrespect LoD character's MP reserves, but while Endir's healing is cheap, his damage is not.  Meru also gets a hefty defensive boost from transforming, so it's possible her healing game might win out here?!  idk though, Endir only has to drop Battlecry-> Spark on turn 1 while she isn't transformed to nearly kill her and force her to want to heal sooner rather than later thanks to Meru's utterly trash physical durability, and once she uses two heals she can't threaten a Water Dragon smiting which forces Endir himself to heal more aggressively.  And she loses if she blows all her MP trying to smash through Endir's healing but fails.  And her healing isn't even full.  Actually, I think Endir can do the pressuring here, open with Battlecry - Spark and force Meru to waste MP healing, then once she's below 80 MP, switch to healing (his durability is fine, Meru's damage is suspect) until she detransforms.  Yeah, I think Endir's MP holds out for this.
Endir vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Healing, faster.
Endir vs Rasputin (SH2)
Healing stops any hope Rasputin has.
Endir vs Umaro (FF6)
Endir vs Tim (WA2)
Endir...  actually risks not breaking through Tim's First Aid spam here?  Depends on how you see repeated TB initiative spam interacting with ATB, I suppose.  And Tim hitting 100 FP is probably better than Endir fishing for Momentum / Singularity.  That said, nah, Endir goes for the Battlecry->Meteo and just barely OHKOs I think?  If he doesn't OHKO he is in deep though, as Tim's healing should fix him back up such that Meteo #2 isn't fatal anymore I suspect.
Endir vs Logg (S5)
Endir can't break through durable healers without running dry.
Endir vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Endir vs Oswin (FE7)
Meteo gets around counters, so aggro Endir should take it.

Caspar: I think Random mostly covered this w/ exception of Meru for me.  Note that per the old chat in Elf's thread, I'm actually kinda inclined to hype up Grappler as Caspar's default (especially if it avoids some nebulous respect penalty for authority, since it means he gets to ignore axes) - he gets cleanly faster with fists as his default vs. Brave Axe which is pretty important defensively, makes it a lot harder to double Caspar.  He does lose out on raw max damage potential & critz which give WM Caspar arguments at least vs. Alice & Oswin, but since he still loses anyway, eh.  That said, I don't think it really matters vs. these scrubs.

Caspar (FE3H) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Caspar vs Red Mage (FF5)
Caspar vs Alice (SH1)
Caspar can win this if granted Healing Focus but eh, for the sake of more votable characters, I'll go with the crowd and not allow it as not unique enough.
Caspar vs Meru (LoD)
I don't let Meru transform on turn 1, so Caspar will get one hit off before she gets Dragoon buffs, and that hit is gonna be ruinous (whether a WM Brave Axe or a Grappler Fierce Iron Fist).  Meru gets heal-locked on the spot, she'll get a double but won't have the MP to use the Water Dragon and has to fear Tomebreaker, nah, not gonna work unless you see her as fast enough to instant double after transforming.
Caspar vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Caspar vs Rasputin (SH2)
Caspar vs Umaro (FF6)
Caspar vs Tim (WA2)
Caspar vs Logg (S5)
Caspar vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Caspar vs Oswin (FE7)


Ramza (FFT) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Ramza vs Red Mage (FF5)
Ramza vs Alice (SH1)
Ramza vs Meru (LoD)
Ramza vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Ramza vs Rasputin (SH2)
Ramza vs Umaro (FF6)
Ramza vs Tim (WA2)
Ramza vs Logg (S5)
Ramza vs Menardi (GS)
Ramza vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Ramza vs Oswin (FE7)


Sylvando: 9-2-1
Endir: 10-2
Caspar: 9-3

Sylvando's not great, but he's toward the top end of Middle, not the bottom end this pool was with the exception of Red Mage / Meru / Oswin.  Main issue is that his game is the kind of thing that is really cool in RPGMon with lots of random status checks and forks in the road, but leads to a lot of gut check "eh, this could go a lot of ways depending on if evasion kicks in or when the status hits or if the status wears off at an inconvenient time" etc. 

Endir's also on the higher side of Middle.  He has major MP problems but having both an aggro option that dumps all his MP and a slow healing game is nice, as is threatening both defenses.

Caspar is also fine, and that's despite DL War Masters being denied Quick Riposte.  Solid damage, counters, can get speedy by equipping Fists.  Definitely one of those "translates better than he probably should" characters.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 09:37:00 PM by SnowFire »

Tide

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Re: Proving grounds L/M- Sylvando slapfights ahoy!
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2021, 08:56:53 PM »
Caspar (FE3H) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG) -  As if the Quadra punches don't already suck enough, Gauntlets have a decent argument to translate as Fighting type attacks to boot
Caspar vs Red Mage (FF5) - On top of Tomebreaker being only +/-20, Caspar's has bad Charm IIRC. That does him absolutely no favors.
Caspar vs Alice (SH1) - I kneejerk Gospel + Panties is too much here. If you allow the Crit Knuckles, then Caspar has an argument (that combined with WM gives him like 60% Crit on base or something) since he needs like Back-to-back Crits to start doing something.
Caspar vs Rasputin (SH2) - Rasputin maybe more scrubby than Tim based on how I scale him. Let that sink in for a moment.
Caspar vs Umaro (FF6) - Strong kneejerk
Caspar vs Tim (WA2) - War Master paunches smash Tim like Hulk smash Loki.
Caspar vs Logg (S5) - Uh...not sure what Logg does here exactly. Caspar's easily the better slugger so I guess hope the healing is enough? But unlike Alice, he doesn't like quarter physical damage so regular gauntlets off of a decent crit eventually eat him I think.
Caspar vs Menardi (GS) - Menardi is really bad, guys. Random pretty much summarizes it, but even if Menardi could double with magic, she might die before hand because her own durability isn't great. Oh and to add insult to injury, Scythes in 3H are treated like Lances and Caspar can get Lancebreaker. G freaking G.   
Caspar vs Oswin (FE7) - Requires more number crunching to get down to it. Offhand, I think Caspar has the slight edge here but yeah.


Ramza (FFT) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG) - I have no clue. Ramza equips Earth Clothes to block Ground based moves and he has a Shield to render the Rock moves to be more inaccurate. However, his offense is kind of wretched. I'm guessing the Ultimas maybe enough here since Golem's MDef is far worse than the PDef. EDIT: Ice does not hit Rock weakness in Gen 1 or Gen 3. But there is one piece of equipment I forgot Ramza can move into while retaining Black Robe and still immune ground attacks: Feather Boots. AFAIK, Ice Brand physicals still hit PDef (unless weakness somehow made it ITD?) so at only a 2x damage rate instead of 4x, Ultima may be better but the important thing here is being able to nullify one of Golem's strongest attacks while maintaining solid enough offense.
Ramza vs Red Mage (FF5) - This match takes awhile, but at the end of the day, I think Red Mage just has too many status threats for Ramza to guard against, especially in a long fight. Ramza's best set up here is probably Assassin Dagger/Aegis/White Robe/108 Gems. He needs Assassin Dagger since otherwise RM just mocks his damage, the White Robe to halve any magical hits he does take thanks to his bad MDef and 108 to block Frog. This leaves him open to Confuse and Sleep - both are really bad news since it gives RM time to work his 8HKO physical. Aegis helps to ward off some of the hit rates against him but even in that case, he needs on average, 5 swings before Death Sentence even procs, then another 3 before death kicks in. And remember, Red Mage gets 2 attempts each round to either Confuse or Sleep (he may prefer sleep first due to higher rate, then land the Confuse to seal the deal) so Aegis can only buy Ramza so much time. If Frog didn't come with the defense nuke, Ramza probably has this since it frees up his Accessory for the N-kai. As his, he can't afford to not block it since otherwise RM probably kills faster and those are turns he can't afford.   
Ramza vs Alice (SH1) - Has no way to really force her into healing without like 5+ Screams. Ramza can go Cham Robe and a regular shield but then his own offense sucks really bad and Alice just beats him with Booc cause his HP sucks. OR he can go Aegis + Ice Brand + Black Robe and hope that he can Heal Lock after 2 Screams or something. Trouble with that is it heavily relies on Aegis' M-Evade to save him and I'm not sure I buy him dodging enough to the point he can force Alice into just healing. To make matters worse, she can cast Gospel and render this effort even more of a futility.
Ramza vs Rasputin (SH2) - Sets up for all power with Ice Brand, Twist and Black Robe and probably OHKOs is my kneejerk.
Ramza vs Umaro (FF6) - *checks stat topics* Umaro removes the Blizzard Orb to avoid accidentally healing Ramza. With that, he falls just shy of a 3HKO but probably still does anyway because Ramza's HP is a smidge below average (75% to use Tackle on average). That's probably enough. Realistically, he won't do 3 tackles in a row probably but Ramza must absolutely 4HKO to have shot here and I'm not sure he does since he's stuck using the Rune Blade and Umaro's PDef is pretty solid.
Ramza vs Tim (WA2) - This match is terrible. Super is bad and should feel bad.
Ramza vs Logg (S5) - Ice Shield can stop ICY POIZN but it doesn't get around Logg's heals. On the other hand, Logg can resist Ice himself and force Ramza to use the less ideal Rune Blade. Scream could be a thing but its likely not making a difference before Logg has already done too much damage.
Ramza vs Menardi (GS) - WHOO BOY. Ramza monkeys around with his equips, but his equip choice here is Ice Brand, Flame Shield, Black Robe and Angel Ring. This basically kills all of Menardi's offense outside of like the 5HKO scythe whacks. Even better (or worse if you are Menardi), Flame Shield has some P-Evade here, so she probably like 6HKOs in practice or something while Ramza hits weakness. G freaking G again.
Ramza vs Oswin (FE7)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 08:15:49 PM by Tide »
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DragonKnight Zero

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Re: Proving grounds L/M- Sylvando slapfights ahoy!
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2021, 05:04:45 AM »
Ramza vs Red Mage (FF5)  Protect gives Ramza issues with winning with physicals.  I feel a little silly forgetting about fishing for decisive status procs when I'm likely the one to introduce that strategy.  Theoretically Ramza could also win by Screaming up to a point where Ultima and a physical on a doble-act would do enough but he's most likely getting wrecked by Red Mage status before then.  Somehing's going to get through that Aegis Shield.  Must go with 108 Gems or Toad gets him.  This still leaves him vulnerable to confuse and sleep.

  Of course, if allowed the Reflect Mail, actually even then it's not a sure thing.  Went with the comedy option of confuse getting through the Aegis shield and Ramza does more damage by nuking himself with Ultima than Red Mage does to him.

Ramza vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)  Kneejerk.  Does enough damage fast enough to stuff any attempts by Ramza to buff his way to victory.

Ramza vs Umaro (FF6)  This is going to be a long slugfest but Umaro defense gives Ramza fits and his magic defense is not to shabby if Ramza tries for Ultima.

Ramza vs Menardi (GS)  Absorbs fire and hits weakness.  This is going to be a slaughter.  Can block instant death too but he might not need to.
Ramza vs Ruprecht (SO2)  Don't respect Ruprecht offense.

Bonus character: Wilbell vs the world

Wilbell vol Ersleid (Atelier Ayesha) vs Red Mage (FF5)  This is an ironic outcome.  Wilbell boasts about being able to turn people into amphibians but she's the one getting toadified here.  Shielding might let her avoid Toad for one turn but she still only gets one attacking turn.  Red Mage durability is bad but not so awful as to get OHKO'ed by Wilbell's dragon.

Wilbell vs Leo (EBC): Low magic defense and no fire resistance?  Wilbell's cute little dragon is going to roast him.

Wilbell vs Umaro (FF6)  Umaro's Rage Ring absorbs fire.  He still loses thanks to his low damage.  Wilbell has no trouble stalling until her meter fills up and unleashes space rocks on him.

Wilbell vs Menardi (GS)  Menardi's ID accuracy is rather meh.  Combined with Wilbell's status resistance which gets boosted by her buffs, this should let her survive until she can fire off her Special.  Could be argued but when in doubt, vote against Menardi.

Wilbell vs Ruprecht (SO2)  Surely.  Even if Ruprecht succeeds in Mind Absorbing her MP away, there's still the super and Wilbell is fast enough to open with Element Call/
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 09:00:06 AM by DragonKnight Zero »

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Re: Proving grounds L/M- Sylvando slapfights ahoy!
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2021, 04:38:18 PM »
Caspar von Bergliez (FE3H) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG) - I think I'm amenable enough to Fists being classed as fighting-type, sure, and Caspar not only doubles but bypasses Golem's physical resistance that way. And Golem doesn't even 2HKO Caspar... yeah.
Caspar von Bergliez vs Red Mage (FF5) - Pretty sure. Caspar goes second and Tomebreaker in FE3H actually isn't that good, so...
Caspar von Bergliez vs Alice Eliott (SH1) - I think Caspar fails to 2HKO Alice even before Gospel due to Panties assuming he -doubles- with Silver Gauntlets. Post-Gospel... yeah.
Caspar von Bergliez vs Meru (LoD) - Caspar ORKOs with Brave Axe, so even being nice and allowing Meru to break counters doesn't save her here.
Caspar von Bergliez vs Rasputin (SH2) - 2HKOs and is 3HKOed, probably goes first to boot. Honestly probably wins even if you don't see him 2HKOing, unless you're insane and see Rasputin as above 1.59x PC HP, and Tomebreaker may actually buy him an extra turn so he could afford to 4HKO and... yeah, no.
Caspar von Bergliez vs Umaro (FF6) - Umaro is bad and should feel bad.
Caspar von Bergliez vs Tim Rhymeless (WA2) - That brawling one-rounding, sheesh.
Caspar von Bergliez vs Logg (S5) - Good lord, that's a lock. Logg certainly isn't as physically durable as Alice - or even particularly close - and is so much slower.
Caspar von Bergliez vs Ruprecht (SO2) - Ruprecht sucks ass.
Caspar von Bergliez vs Oswin (FE7) - I think Random's analysis at first is right on the money, but... Oswin just equips a Killer Axe to avoid Lancebreaker here, I think. This... probably gets Caspar outslugged in practice, I want to say? At least, puts the math against him quite a bit, since Os 3HKOs Caspar with a Killer Axe -anyway-.

Ramza Beoulve (FFT) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG) - Guys, Ice Brand+Black Robe Ramza hits a 4x weakness on Golem. That's an effortless 2HKO, it bypasses Golem's phys resistance.
Ramza Beoulve vs Red Mage (FF5) - Ramza kinda laughs at Red Mage's trick bag in theory... outside of the healing. He just can't really outpace the healing, can he. I mean, he could try to fish for Assassin's Dagger Death sentence, but... actually, Confuse. Sleep. There's a lot of status options capable of shutting Ramza down and he can't block them all at once - he has to block Toad! Shout meets, of all things, Protect, which makes Ramza take a VERY long time to land a kill. Iunno - Red Mage does take forever to kill (he 8HKOs average...), but feels like Ramza needs even longer to get a game going here and one of those unblocked statuses will do him in.
Ramza vs Alice Eliott (SH1) - Oh dear.
Ramza Beoulve vs Meru (LoD) - Well, Ramza spoils Meru's magical damage with an Ice Shield, but... is it even enough? He barely 2HKOs before Dragoon kicks in and every damage Meru deals to him sticks. Iunno, she might just be able to alternate healing => attacks on dragoon turns and use a high-SP string to stay in that form longer. But then, her damage becomes -truly- wretched (below half-average on Dragoon form? Yeah). I dunno.
Ramza Beoulve vs Rasputin (SH2) - Between two 3HKOers, whoever goes first wins.
Ramza Beoulve vs Umaro (FF6) - Do I even -care-? But, on average, I think this is right: Ramza 4HKOs at best and certainly is slower than Umaro if he's going the Ultima route.
Ramza Beoulve vs Tim Rhymeless (WA2) - I'll go with Random here.
Ramza Beoulve vs Logg (S5) - This I think Logg can handle, especially with him likely resisting Ice with some trivial equipment shuffling.
Ramza Beoulve vs Ruprecht (SO2) - Like 22% of Indalecio's HP is kind of a ridiculous sight. Ramza probably just 2HKOs first.
Ramza Beoulve vs Oswin (FE7) - If Ultima could double, this would've gone differently.

Kylin (SaGa) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG) - Thank you, NEB.
Kylin vs Red Mage (FF5) - Heh, I forgot the problem with dualcasting Frog. But yeah, I think this isn't a good outlook for Red Mage.
Kylin vs Alice Eliott (SH1) - That instant death immunity, man.
Kylin vs Meru (LoD) - That ice durability isn't really in a place where it can effectively handle Meru, no.
Kylin vs Rasputin (SH2) - Yyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaah.
Kylin vs Umaro (FF6) - Vanish.
Kylin vs Tim Rhymeless (WA2) - Sooooo, this may be a battle won by DISPEL. Kylin is faster, so gets first Vanish shot in, then Tim casts Thanatos X, then gets Vortex'd, then it's back to square one and this doesn't favor Tim if he recasts Thanatos, since WA2 PCs do -not- build FP just by getting turns - they need to be damaged or use physicals or dodge physicals for that. Tim even could attempt to deal damage, I suppose, but that gets him nowhere since there's nothing he OHKOs Kylin with until 100 FP, which... yeah. Unless there's a very compelling case to see Thanatos X bypassing dispel, this is Kylin's match, since he has some 30 turns to get a double here.
Kylin vs Logg (S5) - Nice washing prowess.
Kylin vs Ruprecht (SO2) - Jesus christ, Ruprecht.
Kylin vs Oswin (FE7) - Yeah, goes first, 2HKOs and probably doesn't make Vanish turn one.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 02:37:19 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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superaielman

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Re: Proving grounds L/M- Sylvando slapfights ahoy!
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2021, 12:28:13 PM »
Ramza (FFT) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Ramza vs Red Mage (FF5)- Can't put RM away. Assassin Dagger strats are not winning this; RM is far more likely to land a lucky status.
Ramza vs Alice (SH1)- Ugly.
Ramza vs Meru (LoD)- Scream till OHKO. Ice Shield gives Ramza a little evade and utterly shuts down Meru offense otherwise.
Ramza vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)- Also ugly. Ramza does not win Middle slugfests when his tricks are out.
Ramza vs Rasputin (SH2)- 2HKOs, isn't 2HKOed back. I'm all for giving SH2 bosses the side eye for bad stats, but Ramza feels pretty outmatched here.
Ramza vs Umaro (FF6)- Ice defense slows Ramza enough.
Ramza vs Tim (WA2)- Tim is dead the second he stops using First Aid.
Ramza vs Logg (S5)
Ramza vs Menardi (GS)- This is closer than people are giving credit for. Menardi's faster and Ramza takes an appreciable hit to his offense to wall Death Seize and her fire magic, but her base damage is so bad that he should still scrape a win. The ice weakness isn't major, but it's probably enough by itself to make up for dropping the Black Robe.
Ramza vs Ruprecht (SO2)- Ramza surely 4HKOs here, Crystal Shield removes any doubt that he'll get those turns.
Ramza vs Oswin (FE7)- I think he can survive an Oswin attack/Jav counter. Ultima should 4HKO here. Edit: can't use shield evade when charging magic so Ramza is boned.


Kylin (SaGa) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG)
Kylin vs Red Mage (FF5)- Was going to vote RM, but the argument about doublecasting Toad having risk is enough to tip it.
Kylin vs Alice (SH1)
Kylin vs Meru (LoD)- Try again next life, Kylin.
Kylin vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Kylin vs Rasputin (SH2)
Kylin vs Umaro (FF6)
Kylin vs Tim (WA2)
Kylin vs Logg (S5)
Kylin vs Menardi (GS)- Kylin does not win slugfests very often, even against blatant incompetents like Menardi.
Kylin vs Ruprecht (SO2)- Ruprecht's mighty MP busting owns very little. Even if I were inclined to respect it at all (nope), Kylin has decent JP.
Kylin vs Oswin (FE7)- What everyone else said here.

Ramza: 5-7
Kylin: 6-6.


Both are on the L/M border for me.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 11:53:47 AM by superaielman »
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Pyro

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Re: Proving grounds L/M- Sylvando slapfights ahoy!
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2021, 04:56:48 PM »
Sylvando (DQ11) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG): Buffing/Healing.
Sylvando vs Red Mage (FF5): X Magic status?
Sylvando vs Alice (SH1): Healing/buffing/status
Sylvando vs Meru (LoD): Healing/buffing/status.
Sylvando vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)Healing/buffing/status
Sylvando vs Rasputin (SH2): Healing/buffing.
Sylvando vs Umaro (FF6): Not Umaro.
Sylvando vs Tim (WA2): Buffing into smashing.
Sylvando vs Logg (S5): Healing/buffing/status.
Sylvando vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Sylvando vs Oswin (FE7): Skillset. Magic/ranged/MT damage, healing...

Healing/buffing/Status is good.


Ramza can use the best accessory he can buy, which is the Bracer for him (and the other physicallers).
Ramza (FFT) vs Golem (PKMN FRLG): Ice.
Ramza vs Red Mage (FF5): Too many statuses.
Ramza vs Alice (SH1)
Ramza vs Meru (LoD)
Ramza vs Leo (Lunar:EBC)
Ramza vs Rasputin (SH2)
Ramza vs Umaro (FF6)
Ramza vs Tim (WA2): 2HKOs. Crit will finish the job eventually.
Ramza vs Logg (S5): Resists Frost Brand and heals?
Ramza vs Ruprecht (SO2)
Ramza vs Oswin (FE7): : Bracers as standard mean Ultima isn't going to do enough damage.

I should actually check the Bracer numbers at some point, and adjust other things accordingly...