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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Movies
« Reply #925 on: April 14, 2010, 03:24:19 PM »
Disney females are at least moderately distinguishable. If I held up a picture of Sleeping Beauty's boyfriend, Cinderella's boyfriend, and Snow White's boyfriend, could you even tell them apart? Aurora, Cinderella, and Snow White may not be beacons of personality or helpfulness but at least they aren't as generic looking and generic acting as possible.

In other words my point is that Disney is not great for looking for great characters, but this is hardly exclusive to females.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 03:27:09 PM by Ciato »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Movies
« Reply #926 on: April 14, 2010, 04:02:23 PM »
The point of my Mulan hype wasn't that it was a groundbreaking feminist work, but I'd certainly argue it was pretty good at what it did. Disney female main characters don't have the best history of being good role models, but in Mulan, girls could go to the film and see someone generally competent, capable, and having a spine. This makes it moderately feminist, at least. Girls aspiring to be Mulan is light years away from girls aspiring to be Sleeping Beauty, or even more recent characters like Ariel, Nala, and Jasmine. I don't think the importance of this should be downplayed by looking for ways in which Mulan itself falls short as a feminist work. Not to say Grefter's points on the subject aren't valid, but I do think that when Disney has clearly taken steps in the right direction we should congratulate that.

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If nothing else, Feminism is strongly anti-violence

I'd be cautious about painting an ideal with such a broad brushstroke. I definitely consider myself feminist but I'm not sure about straight-up anti-violence, for starters. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather live in a world that is peaceful, but I do think violence is appropriate in some situations, defending yourself from someone else's violence being the big one. It doesn't do 95 citizens much good to be pacificists if the remaining 5 are going to mug them. At the very least you need your law enforcement to be violent to control these people, and I'd suspect that if more people trained in self-defence (a form of violence) you'd see less muggings in general.

The disgust at violence against women, taking that as a euphemism for domestic violence, falls under feminism, since it was (and still is, sadly) a method for men to keep control of women. Of course, one reason it was/is so effective is because of a culture that tried to tell women they shouldn't be violent, ever (it's pretty easy for a man to hit his wife if he knows she won't hit him back)... which kinda plays back into my previous paragraph. This isn't to say I think giving girls self-defence classes in high school is the only or even best solution to the problem (general education to both sexes telling them they are equal is far more important), mind, but it's not entirely a bad idea.

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metroid composite

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Re: Movies
« Reply #927 on: April 14, 2010, 04:59:47 PM »
I should clarify a little; the official "Feminist Theory" (as determined by English departments in universities...well possibly as determined by Gender Studies departments and used by English departments) is anti-violence.  I've actually had a prof tell me that Buffy the Vampire Slayer is not really accepted as a feminist work.

Now, the academic use of the word "feminism" doesn't necessarily match up with the real-world.  As it happens, I like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and don't really consider it to be a poor portrayal of women.  And yes, I agree that self-defence classes are a good idea (although the thing with "self defence" is that, at least on paper, it's defence.  It's different than being the aggressor).

And...now I'm just veering into a different topic, but domestic violence is an interesting issue, and not necessarily as gender related as people assume.  The lesbian community actually has problems with domestic violence to the point that they put up posters for domestic violence support.  You don't see posters for gay males...EXCEPT that from what I understand, domestic violence between gay males generally goes unreported.  If you do call the cops, apparently they tend to respond with "oh ho ho, just a couple of guys having a scuffle.  Break it up, boys."  And then you have domestic violence towards men from women--this is a friend of a friend situation, but apparently one guy was getting beaten by his girlfriend, called the cops, and the cops arrested him, not her.  "Domestic violence?  Remove the man from the situation.  PROBLEM SOLVED.  High five, let's get doughnuts."

Okay, enough with that tangent.  The interesting question is why academic feminism would take in the apparently unrelated anti-violence stance (beyond the realm of domestic violence).  One answer that jumps to mind is that physical combat is an inherently unequal arena; wereas verbal conflict is fairly equal (women score higher on verbal tests, men have louder voiceboxes).  Another answer is that the academic leaders in feminism are women, and standard brain psychology differences tell us that, for example, if a bunch of boys walk into a computer room, they'll scuffle for the best computer, whereas a bunch of girls, even amongst themselves, even back when kids are of equal strength, won't use physicality to solve the problem.  (The evolutionary theory I've heard is that women spent a lot of their time pregnant...where shoving for a small gain is just too risky).  So...get 100 such feminist academic leaders into a room, and then suggest "shoving is bad" and you'd get a lot of head-nodding and "that feels right to me", even if an anti-shoving stance doesn't do much to advance the female condition in the year 1990.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 05:01:42 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: Movies
« Reply #928 on: April 14, 2010, 06:10:26 PM »
Buffy the Vampire Slayer: First aired in 1997
Disney's Mulan: Released in 1998

Hmm...I'll give Disney the benefit of the doubt here--1 year is not a lot of time to copy something.

Particularly when you consider it's a Disney animated movie well before CGI was sophisticated.  Hell, ignoring that they would have had to have written the script and done all the music/voice work in that one year.  Nevermind animating the bloody thing.  Yeah, kind of impossible.

EDIT:  And seconding MC's take on domestic violence.  The way gender norms are constructed, it's always pinned on the male regardless of who was committing the violence (I have no idea about what happens in male-male relationships.  Gut reaction says unless one's more emotionally female than the other it would go unreported because guys just fight sometimes, 'cuz testosterone is a prick.  Honestly no real clue on that, though.)  Not to mention that a lot of domestic violence from women towards men goes unreported, partially out of pride, partially because it's just more acceptable.  I've had a friend whose girlfriend loved punching him in the arm or backhanding him in the chest when he said something she didn't like, and he took it in stride.  Reverse the actions and then my friend would have gone to jail for a night.  For all the awesomeness of feminism it doesn't usually address things like this. (Another, much bigger issue: custody battles and how they favor the woman nine times out of ten; feminists often treat the issue as a farce, and this in turn makes the men take feminism less seriously and fosters animosity between the sexes on both sides of the issue.  Complex issues are complex!)

EDIT 2: As for why academic feminism is anti-violence... well, partially most academia is fairly anti-violence in my experience.  Part of it is that violence and war are male-gendered activities, for no other reason than even feminists are mired in their own take on what gender norms are.  It's all arbitrary labels anyway; these are just the ones that are in vogue.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 06:21:17 PM by Makkotah »

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Re: Movies
« Reply #929 on: April 14, 2010, 06:12:01 PM »
Blah, the term Feminist and Feminism gets tossed around a bit too much. Feminism is anti-violence though? I never heard that. I want to look into it. The Women Studies department has a different standpoint.

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Re: Movies
« Reply #930 on: April 14, 2010, 06:39:09 PM »
Blah, the term Feminist and Feminism gets tossed around a bit too much. Feminism is anti-violence though? I never heard that. I want to look into it. The Women Studies department has a different standpoint.

Kind of, but a caveat to that is that feminist/m is a label many would gladly adopt themselves, correctly or incorrectly.  Now, you want a term that get's flung around like nobody's business regardless of whether it's appropriate (kind of like feminist/m), but nobody wants to be stuck with?  Misogynist.  "It's a man talking about how sexy he thinks a woman is! Misogyny! It's a man talking about how sexy the thinks women find him! Misogyny!"

metroid composite

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Re: Movies
« Reply #931 on: April 14, 2010, 07:09:09 PM »
I...yeah, I definitely don't know how to define that one.

I was going to say "male forming some conclusion about female" except it's not true that the misogynist has to be male--I've known lesbians to complain of misogyny from other lesbians.  I've known lesbians who called themselves misogynists.

Although, I'm pretty sure we can conclude that misogyny has something to do with having thoughts about women.  Which opens up an interesting philosophical question--if we programmed a robot whose sensors were incapable of detecting women (they get edited out of the input feed), would that robot be capable of being a misogynist?

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Movies
« Reply #932 on: April 14, 2010, 07:22:23 PM »
Misogyny is definitely connected to the way one treats women compared to the way one treats men. If I call all women "kittens" I'm a misogynist, if I call all people that I'm just weird. If I say all women are incompetent politicians I am a misogynist, if I say all humans are incompetent politicians I am just a pessimist (some here would say realist <.<). etc. So yeah, that robot would not be capable of misogyny, presumbly.

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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Movies
« Reply #933 on: April 14, 2010, 07:48:13 PM »
I was going to say "male forming some conclusion about female"

That's definitely how some people use it, except that it's "any conclusion."

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Re: Movies
« Reply #934 on: April 14, 2010, 09:20:39 PM »
Kind of, but a caveat to that is that feminist/m is a label many would gladly adopt themselves, correctly or incorrectly.  Now, you want a term that get's flung around like nobody's business regardless of whether it's appropriate (kind of like feminist/m), but nobody wants to be stuck with?

Gladly? Mmm, I'm going to have to just nod my head here because there still are women who refuse to label themselves as that, and it still resonates today.

However, that is pretty much in keeping with my point.

I'd say the examples that Dark Holy Elf offers are what I would consider sexist rather than misogynist.

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Re: Movies
« Reply #935 on: April 14, 2010, 09:36:12 PM »
Quote
Buffy the Vampire Slayer: First aired in 1997
Disney's Mulan: Released in 1998

Hmm...I'll give Disney the benefit of the doubt here--1 year is not a lot of time to copy something.

The movie that inspired the show came out in 1993 or so. I seriously doubt if they have anything to do with each other though.
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Re: Movies
« Reply #936 on: April 14, 2010, 10:44:15 PM »
Feminism isn't inherently anti-violence, it is all theory around gender and a demand for equality.  There is a great deal of things in there tha trend it against violence though (one of them being that it is largely an area dominated by academics certainly).

Regarding Disney making steps in the right direction?  I will go quote the Disney home page again.

Quote
All your fairytale wishes come true as you help Aurora, Cinderella, Snow White, Ariel, Jasmine, Belle, Pocahontas and Mulan dress up and prepare for tea parties, birthday celebrations, grand balls and many other royal events. Follow your dreams and experience a special place where happily-ever-after happens every day while you earn and collect regal charms for your exclusive Princess friendship bracelets...and have fun-filled adventures with the beloved Disney Princesses.

They haven't gone very far at all.

Buffy itself is again no Vagina Monologues (Which for the record even still get Feminist critique, Feminism is so broad that there is always one area of thought on it that can criticise something, which is a good thing), but Buffy, while tending to being overly enamoured with males is far from defined entirely by her relationships with men.  There is 4 main males that have direct influence over her, Giles, Angel, Spike and Riley.  Her weakest point in that is when she is with Riley and you know what happened that series?  We got Willow's very slow realisation of her homosexuality.  Buffy isn't a shining beacon (It certainly objectifies women and plays with stereotypes), but it at least has a tendency to play with Gender issues and Queer Theory, both of which are/were fairly fresh and relevant when it was being made (With Queer Theory really only coming to the fore in mid 80s).  Which is leagues better than what I have taken from Mulan and miles and miles ahead of current Disney.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Movies
« Reply #937 on: April 15, 2010, 06:05:04 AM »
Oh, you won't see me arguing that Disney's promotions of its own movies remain total garbage. I remember when the teasers for Princess and the Frog came out people were commenting on the main character, a poor working girl, being the "princess" as ironic. Of course it was just so that they could market Disney Princess :) :) :) stuff for the movie, how naive of us.


Idun: Yeah, the examples weren't very good, though misogynist comments do tend to be sexist by nature so I don't think the distinction, in this case, is too important?

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Re: Movies
« Reply #938 on: April 15, 2010, 07:36:09 AM »
Bella's your typical silent main, then.  And she has appeal for just the same reasons they do.  Not a tough concept.

Appeal?
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Re: Movies
« Reply #939 on: April 15, 2010, 07:56:37 AM »
Bella's your typical silent main, then.  And she has appeal for just the same reasons they do.  Not a tough concept.

Appeal?

People with issues can project themselves on to them, duh. It's way harder to do when the character has any personality.

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« Reply #940 on: April 15, 2010, 09:55:21 AM »
Or people who are just boring and therefore find to easy to see themselves within a person who doesn't have a shred of personality. I'll admit the question was solely on opening for silent main trashing.
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Re: Movies
« Reply #941 on: April 15, 2010, 12:19:34 PM »
I dunno.  For all that I consider Bella a total idiot most of the time, and groan about her rare but utterly blatant Mary Sue moments when she does have them, I still somehow manage to project onto her every 10th scene or so--AP student who likes Jane Austen whose distant mother worries about her too much and who enjoys the occasional girlie thing but isn't excited about school dances = ok, I can relate to those aspects.  This puts her way ahead of every silent main I've ever seen combined.  Silent mains have no personality, and therefore nothing to relate to.

I mean, I know the argument people usually use is "you're supposed to make stuff up, that's the beauty of silent mains.  I guess you must be imagination deficient."  But I don't need a videogame to make stuff up; I just close my eyes and start inventing my world filled with my characters and my scenes.

Grefter

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Re: Movies
« Reply #942 on: April 15, 2010, 03:16:33 PM »
Everyone should be projecting something onto silent mains no matter what your mental state is.

That something just happens to be vomit.
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Re: Movies
« Reply #943 on: April 15, 2010, 04:46:41 PM »
But I don't need a videogame to make stuff up

Most of them DO tend to be counterproductive towards it.

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Re: Movies
« Reply #944 on: April 18, 2010, 01:57:05 PM »
It's Complicated: Seems like it should be a really good movie--excellent actors, and a pretty interesting script.  I wasn't feeling it all that much, mind; and maybe I was tired, but it also could be that the major characters were all 50+ in age, and I wasn't relating all that well.

Lost Boys: The first half of the movie I felt kinda like "what am I watching?  Man, 80s drama and 80s special effects don't hold up that well."  It got rather awesome in completely ridiculous ways towards the end, though.

Twilight: New Moon: Well...the first Twilight movie was unbelievably horrible compared to any of the books I've read (not to praise the books all that much--they're stupid but fun.  It's just the movie was claw-my-eyes-out).  But...part of the problem was how they couldn't effectively show much of the cool vampire stuff because they had less special effects budget than a fair few TV shows.  So...I thought maybe by the second movie they were making a lot of money and decided to have more of a budget than a straight-to-DVD movie this time.
The second movie I found...more tolerable, but I rarely felt I was enjoying the movie.  (There was maybe 40 seconds worth of footage that effectively depicted Alice being Alice, which naturally was full of win and awesome.  The Laurent scene was solid, for all that I'm still facepalming about them making Laurent black when he should be ethnically French Canadian).  For the most part I just wasn't into the movie, though.  And while yes, the special effects have improved, it's mostly only enough to make the special effects scenes dull instead of painful.  Going 3x the speed limit on a European highway weaving in and out of traffic...should be exciting; it wasn't.  Vampire fights...geez, take a lesson from Dragonball Z or Matrix Revolutions.  "They're moving too fast for human eyes to follow" can be done better than that.  And...past that, for some reason I wasn't really feeling the Volturi, and I can't fully explain why (outside of disappointment that Jane was not a little girl--though I guess they want to sell their movie in Germany so had to mak her 20).

Grefter

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Re: Movies
« Reply #945 on: April 18, 2010, 02:17:46 PM »
Lost Boys: The first half of the movie I felt kinda like "what am I watching?  Man, 80s drama and 80s special effects don't hold up that well."  It got rather awesome in completely ridiculous ways towards the end, though.

So the drama and special effects were 80s and the plot was 80s as well.  Lost boys is win and great fun.  Good times with Keifer Sutherland.

Edit - And you totally still need to watch Interview With a Vampire.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 02:34:08 PM by Grefter »
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Re: Movies
« Reply #946 on: April 19, 2010, 02:07:43 AM »
Kick-Ass:  Not as good as I was expecting.  I think the Hit-Girl/Big Daddy story overshadows the main character too much and the film loses its focus.  But yeah, Hit-Girl is amazing and I expect MC to be avataring her soon.  I got your non-violent feminism right here!

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Re: Movies
« Reply #947 on: April 21, 2010, 08:44:26 AM »
I think the Hit-Girl/Big Daddy story overshadows the main character too much and the film loses its focus. 

I think Kick-Ass is basically just a PoV character, more than a main.

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Re: Movies
« Reply #948 on: April 21, 2010, 12:40:45 PM »
Godzilla vs. Smog Monster/Hedorah:  Finally saw the rest of this movie!

Its...umm....er....best way to describe it?

Take a 2nd grade classroom session, with the focus primarily on Environmentalism, with a bit of Astronomy tossed in.  Then toss in a GIANT FUCKING SLUDGE MONSTER and Godzilla into the mix.

I really have nothing more to say, the movie is that bad.  Its really hard to explain just how fucked up it is, not just in its nature, but in all the random shit they shove in it.

The only reason to see this movie is if you hate yourself.  The only reason to recommend this movie to someone else is if you really want them to suffer.  This movie is comparable to bad Gamera films.  COMPARABLE. TO. BAD. GAMERA. FILMS.

That is all.
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Re: Movies
« Reply #949 on: April 21, 2010, 05:30:32 PM »
What, Meeple.