Author Topic: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3  (Read 5347 times)

Cmdr_King

  • Strong and Full of Love
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5566
  • Is Gay
    • View Profile
    • CK Blog
Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« on: July 24, 2011, 10:36:09 PM »
Godlike

Avalon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) v Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) v Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (Wild ARMs)
Kite (.hack Series) v Xorn (Grandia III)
Millenia (Grandia II) v Rika (Phantasy Star IV)

Ryu (Breath of Fire III) v Profound Darkness (Phantasy Star IV)
Genevieve (Valkyrie Profile) v Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King)
Melfice (Grandia II) v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV)
Nate Nanjo (Person Series) v Cloud of Darkness (Final Fantasy III)

Heavy

Rose (Legend of Dragoon) v Shadow Maya (Persona 2: Innocent Sin)
Alicia Melchiott (Valkyria Chronicles) v Cristo (Dragon Quest IV)
Ziggy (Xenosaga Series) v Brigette 'Rosie' Starks (Valkyria Chronicles)
Chie Satonaka (Persona 4) v Athos (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)

Zera (Grandia II) v Elliot (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Starmie (Pokémon)
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII)
Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia) v Justin (Grandia)

Middle

Mary Argent (Tales of Destiny) v Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon)
Peter (Shining Force II) v Aht (Radiant Historia)
Domingo (Shining Force)  v Ayne (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) v Akira (Live a Live)

Vyers (Disgaea: Hour of Darkness) v Argilla (Digital Devil Saga)
Aigis (Persona 3) v Mathias (Suikoden V)
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII)
Mother (Wild ARMs) v Tengaar (Suikoden Series)

Light

Blastoise (Pokémon) v Kelvena (Xenogears)
Piccolo (Suikoden III) v Milon (Final Fantasy IV)
Pikachu (Pokémon) v Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Roger Huxley (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Lucia (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)

Meru (Legend of Dragoon) v Aisha (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)
Rahal (Suikoden V) v Shady (Wild ARMs 3)
Tricia (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) v Mukumuku (Suikoden II)
Frank Goldfinger (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) v Yam Koo (Suikoden)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 05:45:39 AM by Cmdr_King »
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8135
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 11:03:10 PM »
Godlike

Avalon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) v Mewtwo (Pokémon): Stone. Non-RBY forms may have a shot but I dunno, Avalon has a lot of shit to deal with that Mewtwo doesn't much like (HP-1, dispel).
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) v Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (Wild ARMs): Faster with a OHKO physical.
Kite (.hack Series) v Xorn (Grandia III)
Millenia (Grandia II) v Rika (Phantasy Star IV): Elim!

Ryu (Breath of Fire III) v Profound Darkness (Phantasy Star IV): Aura really hurts, Ryu's MP should hold out here.
Genevieve (Valkyrie Profile) v Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King): Survives a Magic Burst easily enough, then demolishes (Contaminate Energy should OHKO easily enough even if you ignore Indiscriminate.
Melfice (Grandia II) v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV): Val being all evadable while Melfice has ITE wins this fight given they both have the same spoiling tricks.
Nate Nanjo (Person Series) v Cloud of Darkness (Final Fantasy III)

Heavy

Rose (Legend of Dragoon) v Shadow Maya (Persona 2: Innocent Sin)
Alicia Melchiott (Valkyria Chronicles) v Cristo (Dragon Quest IV)
Ziggy (Xenosaga Series) v Rosie (Valkyria Chronicles)
Chie Satonaka (Persona 4) v Athos (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)


Zera (Grandia II) v Elliot (Legaia 2: Duel Saga): Hohoho, now that this is no longer the DL should I start voting off Zera as Valmar Core, which really feels like it should be a more legit form for him? Elliot crushes final plotfight Zera though.
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Starmie (Pokémon): Can half water, and should land freeze after two turns at most.
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII): Gut. Could be argued here.
Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia) v Justin (Grandia)

Middle

Mary Argent (Tales of Destiny) v Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon)
Peter (Shining Force II) v Aht (Radiant Historia): A double or crit should OHKO Aht. Not totally sold on Aht in Middle? Fast healer is pretty good I guess, but that durability and the lack of tricks otherwise... EDIT: Yeah, my kneejerk is to allow RH sleep to be good. May rethink this but not now.
Domingo (Shining Force)  v Ayne (Legaia 2: Duel Saga): EDIT: No ice resistance, so yeah, Domingo probably 2HKOs first.
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) v Akira (Live a Live)

Vyers Mid-boss (Disgaea: Hour of Darkness) v Argilla (Digital Devil Saga): Dhyer's strategy sounds right.
Aigis (Persona 3) v Mathias (Suikoden V)
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII): Should get a decent limit off; not really Karin's type of fight.
Mother (Wild ARMs) v Tengaar (Suikoden Series): Halves earth and should overwhelm any of Tengaar's tricks.

Light

Blastoise (Pokémon) v Kelvena (Xenogears): Well they're hilariously bad at damaging each other, but Tail Whip + Skull Bush when appropriate should win this for Blastoise easily enough.
Piccolo (Suikoden III) v Milon (Final Fantasy IV): Now if it were FF4TAY Milon...
Pikachu (Pokémon) v Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Roger Huxley (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Lucia (Shadow Hearts: Covenant): Presumably is actually good for the division.

Meru (Legend of Dragoon) v Aisha (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)
Rahal (Suikoden V) v Shady (Wild ARMs 3): YES. Shady is way faster and Rahal's armour is bad enough that I'd be shocked if he could resist both fire and ice at the same time. EDIT: Okay, he can resist both, but only resist (he can null one but only if he exposes full vulnerability to the other). This should reduce Shady from a 4HKO to a 6HKO. However, with the huge speed difference (+1 SD vs. -1.4 SD roughly) I do see a 3-2 happening here, and Shady can survive three Rahal hits (77% PCHP) to me. Good fight though.
Tricia (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) v Mukumuku (Suikoden II)
Frank Goldfinger (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) v Yam Koo (Suikoden): Solid enough.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 05:47:50 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2189
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 11:11:30 PM »
Godlike
Millenia (Grandia II) v Rika (Phantasy Star IV) - dat id
Ryu (Breath of Fire III) v Profound Darkness (Phantasy Star IV) - I'll bite
Melfice (Grandia II) v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV) - Evadeable physicals against Melfice.  That'll work.

Heavy

Rose (Legend of Dragoon) v Shadow Maya (Persona 2: Innocent Sin) - Strong, strong kneejerk.
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII) - works for me
Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia) v Justin (Grandia) - yep

Middle

Mary Argent (Tales of Destiny) v Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon) - ugh
Peter (Shining Force II) v Aht (Radiant Historia) - Aht barely avoids the OHKO but a trap doesn't OHKO Peter.  Trap+Cross Star kills Peter but Aht needs a 3-2 for that.  Do I buy the 3-2?  Not sure, but leaning yes.  Also not buying a turn 1 crit/double on Peter's end with odds that low.  Alternatively, sleep trap works.  Or I can completely forget Dreamless exists and she can go with that.
Mother (Wild ARMs) v Tengaar (Suikoden Series) - uh huh

Light

Blastoise (Pokémon) v Kelvena (Xenogears) - Very funny, CK.  Anyhow Tail Whip -> Skull Bash lalalala not thinking about this.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 02:27:39 AM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8135
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 11:14:51 PM »
Peter can just move to the back row to avoid a trap, even assuming that he doesn't -start- there... Aht's durability is almost certainly bad enough to die to even a Peter double/crit reduced by 25%. Doubles are also pretty rare in RH and don't exist in Shining Force (nor does the whole normal TB advantage to going first, so I actually treat SF2 characters as average speed past the first turn... ymmv), so a a 3-2 feels kinda unlikely though possible depending on exactly how you scale speed.

EDIT: Sleep Trap doesn't really... work ever, on the other hand. There's a > 1/3 chance a random enemy in RH will start in a place where they can't be pushed (1/3 of starting in the back row, but a few enemies are bigger and thus have a 1/2 chance). Then there's a 25% chance the trap misses. Add this up and it's over 50% of failure. Respect not found.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 11:24:22 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dhyerwolf

  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 11:24:27 PM »
Godlike

Avalon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) v Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) v Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (Wild ARMs)
Millenia (Grandia II) v Rika (Phantasy Star IV)

Ryu (Breath of Fire III) v Profound Darkness (Phantasy Star IV)- Alternate unlisted Ryu forms may take it. The big gun doesn't have the muscle to get through I think without falling to 0 MP
Genevieve (Valkyrie Profile) v Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King)
Melfice (Grandia II) v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV)
Nate Nanjo (Person Series) v Cloud of Darkness (Final Fantasy III)

Heavy

Rose (Legend of Dragoon) v Shadow Maya (Persona 2: Innocent Sin)- Make Persona 2 vote totals lower!!!!!
Chie Satonaka (Persona 4) v Athos (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)- Evade Up, Attack Up, Power Charge, Smash

Zera (Grandia II) v Elliot (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)- A bit more durability, and faster
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Starmie (Pokémon)
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII)
Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia) v Justin (Grandia)

Middle

Mary Argent (Tales of Destiny) v Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon)
Peter (Shining Force II) v Aht (Radiant Historia)
Domingo (Shining Force)  v Ayne (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)- Ayne can't resist Ice. Domingo may fail to 2HKO, but I think Ayne's 2HKO is shakier here.

Vyers (Disgaea: Hour of Darkness) v Argilla (Digital Devil Saga)- Heal lock with basic physical
Aigis (Persona 3) v Mathias (Suikoden V)- ID
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII)
Mother (Wild ARMs) v Tengaar (Suikoden Series)

Light

Blastoise (Pokémon) v Kelvena (Xenogears)
Piccolo (Suikoden III) v Milon (Final Fantasy IV)
Pikachu (Pokémon) v Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Roger Huxley (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Lucia (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)

Meru (Legend of Dragoon) v Aisha (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)- Meru is...113.5% speed turn 1, Aisha is 114% (although should check how that 114% was calced if it was SDed). As is, Aisha outspeeds, and near OHKOs Meru.
Rahal (Suikoden V) v Shady (Wild ARMs 3)- Isn't Shady only Fire based? That said, if necessary, Rahal can cut Fire and Ice at the same time. Also, Flowing Sword Rune...headache on which element. Blah no.
Tricia (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) v Mukumuku (Suikoden II)- Tricia versus melee!!!!! Oh wait...
Frank Goldfinger (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) v Yam Koo (Suikoden)
...into the nightfall.

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2189
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 11:24:49 PM »
Meanwhile, Peter has a godly 8% of a crit or double attack, so not feeling the hype there.  Only other way he's OHKOing is if he moves to the front and Push Assault sez no to that.  Meanwhile moving to the back just more or less negates the damage boost Aht turnswapping would give him and lets her just spam Super Heal/Cross Star for 5HKOing Peter, since I'm definitely not feeling him getting the crit or double he needs in that time frame.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 11:31:39 PM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8135
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 11:33:04 PM »
8% double and 8% crit adds up to about 15% overall? No, it won't happen fast, but with Aht's godly damage, it will happen, and even in the back row, it'll kill.

Hm, actually, a bit closer than I thought. If Aht can get 11 turns before Peter can get 8, she may win. 15% happens on turn 7 to me (>67% threshold), so we get Aht setting a trap followed by Peter moving followed by 7 Peter attacks. If Aht can get 11 turns before Peter gets these 8 turns she'll win (five turns to recover from Peter's first five attacks, one to set the trap, five for attacks since she 5HKOs). This requires a +37.5% speed advantage on Peter as far as doubles go. I don't think she has that myself (Peter is average, Aht is slower than a boss I pegged at around 125%-130%). Still, a different view of Shining Force speed would easily tilt this, now. (80% average Peter gets stomped.)

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Nephrite

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2051
  • President of the Great United States of America
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2011, 01:53:29 AM »
Godlike

Avalon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) v Mewtwo (Pokémon)
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) v Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (Wild ARMs)
Kite (.hack Series) v Xorn (Grandia III)
Millenia (Grandia II) v Rika (Phantasy Star IV) - ID BLOCKER HYPE?? (did G2 even have those?)

Ryu (Breath of Fire III) v Profound Darkness (Phantasy Star IV)
Genevieve (Valkyrie Profile) v Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King)
Melfice (Grandia II) v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV)
Nate Nanjo (Person Series) v Cloud of Darkness (Final Fantasy III) - Did CoD have much physical damage? EDIT: Not really! There we go then.

Heavy

Rose (Legend of Dragoon) v Shadow Maya (Persona 2: Innocent Sin) - Overwhelmed by speed and damage, I think.
Alicia Melchiott (Valkyria Chronicles) v Cristo (Dragon Quest IV)
Ziggy (Xenosaga Series) v Rosie (Valkyria Chronicles)
Chie Satonaka (Persona 4) v Athos (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) EDIT: Right Miori shirt

Zera (Grandia II) v Elliot (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)
Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Starmie (Pokémon)
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII)
Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia) v Justin (Grandia)

Middle

Mary Argent (Tales of Destiny) v Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon)
Peter (Shining Force II) v Aht (Radiant Historia)  I am much more generous with levels so Aht gets Dreamless which is an MT Sleep physical, so...
Domingo (Shining Force)  v Ayne (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)
Dekar (Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals) v Akira (Live a Live)

Vyers (Disgaea: Hour of Darkness) v Argilla (Digital Devil Saga)
Aigis (Persona 3) v Mathias (Suikoden V)
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII)
Mother (Wild ARMs) v Tengaar (Suikoden Series)

Light

Blastoise (Pokémon) v Kelvena (Xenogears) - Blastoise dad for godlike
Piccolo (Suikoden III) v Milon (Final Fantasy IV) DS Milon. /shrug
Pikachu (Pokémon) v Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)
Roger Huxley (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Lucia (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)

Meru (Legend of Dragoon) v Aisha (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)
Rahal (Suikoden V) v Shady (Wild ARMs 3)
Tricia (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) v Mukumuku (Suikoden II)
Frank Goldfinger (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) v Yam Koo (Suikoden) GOLDFINGER
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 02:05:03 AM by Nephrite »

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9630
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2011, 01:56:39 AM »
Godlike

Avalon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga) v Mewtwo (Pokémon)- HP-1 fucks Mewtwo too much here, I'm thinking.
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) v Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (Wild ARMs)
Millenia (Grandia II) v Rika (Phantasy Star IV)

Ryu (Breath of Fire III) v Profound Darkness (Phantasy Star IV)
Genevieve (Valkyrie Profile) v Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King)- VP boss HP.
Melfice (Grandia II) v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV)

Heavy

Alicia Melchiott (Valkyria Chronicles) v Cristo (Dragon Quest IV)- Upper/ID work here.
Ziggy (Xenosaga Series) v Rosie (Valkyria Chronicles)- Attack down. Goodbye Ziggy.
Chie Satonaka (Persona 4) v Athos (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)- Tenative. Athos just avoids a doubling and a OHKO from Power charge, and should 2HKO back.


Nel Zelpher (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Starmie (Pokémon)
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII)- Can block Imp, so smash.


Middle

Mary Argent (Tales of Destiny) v Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon)- Mary is pretty bad.

Domingo (Shining Force) v Ayne (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)- Ayne can't block ice.

Vyers (Disgaea: Hour of Darkness) v Argilla (Digital Devil Saga)- Midboss vs healer.
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII)
Mother (Wild ARMs) v Tengaar (Suikoden Series)

Light

Blastoise (Pokémon) v Kelvena (Xenogears)
Piccolo (Suikoden III) v Milon (Final Fantasy IV)
Pikachu (Pokémon) v Vitali (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters)- Don't think Thundershock's enough here.
Roger Huxley (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Lucia (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)- Less terrible.

Meru (Legend of Dragoon) v Aisha (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)- I think her evasion tips this.
Rahal (Suikoden V) v Shady (Wild ARMs 3)- Can null Shady's damage.
Tricia (Soul Nomad & The World Eaters) v Mukumuku (Suikoden II)- Surely even Tricia's not that bad against melee.
Frank Goldfinger (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) v Yam Koo (Suikoden)- Using the lower SH3 average, which means Frank gets the 2HKO.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 02:18:04 AM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4938
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2011, 04:57:51 AM »
Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King) v Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (Wild ARMs)

Genevieve (Valkyrie Profile) v Jessica Albert (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King)
I have some VP boss HP respect but Magic Burst really really hurts.
Melfice (Grandia II) v Valvalis (Final Fantasy IV)

Heavy

Alicia Melchiott (Valkyria Chronicles) v Cristo (Dragon Quest IV)
Ziggy (Xenosaga Series) v Rosie (Valkyria Chronicles)
XS1 & 2 Ziggy obviously die, but not so sure about XS3.  I seem to recall thinking the damage for Rosie in the stat topic was a bit high though I forget the reason, and using the ATK-down gun lowers her damage anyway.  I also don't think it matters at all to Ziggy's break game, so it means that Rosie using the ATK-down gun just gets her Choked twice and broken, followed by a bunch of buffs that reduce her accuracy and increase Ziggy's defense, so they're both nearly tinking, except that Rosie gets very few turns due to being constantly re-broken.  HOWEVER.  Rosie might win just by tanking Ziggy and 2HKOing first, so sure.

Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII)
Can block Imp, not inclined to hype Lete River Ulty.
Kratos Aurion (Tales of Symphonia) v Justin (Grandia)
Shouldn't be 2HKOed.  Still the ID Axe but Kratos might be able to block it anwyay.

Middle

Peter (Shining Force II) v Aht (Radiant Historia)
No SF2 but from the debates, I'd definitely cast my lot in with Aht here. 
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII)
Mother (Wild ARMs) v Tengaar (Suikoden Series)

Light

Piccolo (Suikoden III) v Milon (Final Fantasy IV)
Roger Huxley (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time) v Lucia (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)

Meru (Legend of Dragoon) v Aisha (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)
Is Meru still in Light?  I thought she upgraded...
Rahal (Suikoden V) v Shady (Wild ARMs 3)
Frank Goldfinger (Shadow Hearts: From the New World) v Yam Koo (Suikoden)

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8135
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2011, 05:20:39 AM »
Quote
I am much more generous with levels so Aht gets Dreamless which is an MT Sleep physical, so...

Um, that should really be in the stat topic then! (Kinda ups Aht from borderline Light to borderline Heavy if the hit rate is good and you allow the turn-swapping.) Has anyone actually tested it?

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2189
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2011, 05:39:20 AM »
I backtracked a bit and did some brief testing on some AH6 randoms (since enemies in the final dungeon have this thing where apparently they immune sleep what with being crystals and machines) with an overleveled save and it rarely failed to inflict the status.  I'd call it 75%-80% based on my brief tests.  Could be taken with a grain of salt but I'd be shocked if it wound up to be worse than turn 2.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8135
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2011, 05:48:00 AM »
Well, vote changed then.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Nephrite

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2051
  • President of the Great United States of America
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2011, 06:01:18 AM »
I'll actually update the stat topic with the moves you get at the higher levels.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4938
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2011, 06:30:09 AM »
Even ignoring Dreamless, I don't know how you see Aht as Light unless you're really harsh on allowing traps.  If traps are relevant, she speedily 2HKOs average in three different elements.  She can fall back on "fast + full healing + doubles" against enemies that can't OHKO her.  And if you allow Sky Drops she's potentially fully status immune.  This is a lot closer to Heavy than to Light.

I consider myself something of a stickler for positioning - i.e. Yulie has healing 4/7 of the time and some form of elemental damage 3/7 of the time without spending a turn on move - but not really inclined to hate on Aht except when she's fighting clearly screen-filling enemies.  (I will antihype Eruca's Shine, as getting an enemy into the center column is hard - so in retrospect I'd have voted for Hope > Eruca in that Futurama awhile back.)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 06:33:57 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8135
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2011, 06:56:57 AM »
Aht only has Push Attack, therefore she can't trap an enemy in the back row, ever. By your own stickling for positioning she's very clearly only going to have these traps work 2/3 of the time at best, and if you allow the enemy to move it becomes never barring an instant double. I see no reason not to allow her opponent to move seeing as enemies can do this in-game. You can say "not very often" if you want to play the in-game card at which point I respond "Yes, but a lot of them also can't be pushed". So yeah, RH traps suck in the DL. To claim otherwise seems kinda weird to me, honestly.

RH statusblockers also have plenty of holes (instant death is the biggest one, but there's also frog, confuse/charm, and potentially silence) and 0.64 pdur makes her healing game very, very beatable in Middle. As we just witnessed, Peter (not the world's best Middle fighter) pulls it off if we remove sleep from the equation. Without sleep, she pretty much auto-loses to anyone with a decent crit rate or limits which is quite a lot of the division!

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4938
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2011, 07:16:46 AM »
Okay, if you throw out traps, then yes, she's High Light. 

If you assume perfectly random placement, sure, they'd only work 2/3 of the time.  However RH is weird in that starting in the back row or the front row gives a boost to damage / penalty to defense.  It would seem strange that a quirk of RH's system would effect the other dueler.  As such, in general I'd want to assume center column placement for normal-size enemies and then squint a bit if an attack has serious restrictions in-game - like Gafka's stuff that only hits the center square, or Eruca's Shine for that matter.  Aht isn't nearly that restricted.  And, while you might complain that this is too holistic, Aht's traps aren't really gimped at all if an enemy is in the back row in-game.  They're actually great, you just have mandatory Stocke Right Assault them or something then.  Not really inclined to over-punish Aht for only having Push Attack, and only getting one trap off maximum is punishment enough.

Also, yes, I do allow people to move voluntarily - same with, say, Arnaud's Slow Down.  Go ahead and waste a turn to move out (unless you are a strat-RPG character or Raquel, in which case go move & attack and laugh).  However, the moving strategy doesn't actually help very much vs. a fast character like Arnaud or Aht.  Arnaud just keeps tagging a moving enemy with Slow Down until all 6 Hexes have it and probably sneaking doubles in.  For Aht it's more like:  Aht: Trap two of the back squares.  Enemy: Move in front of the untrapped square.  Aht: Trap the last untrapped square.  Enemy, who is now giving up a double even faster: uhhhhhhhh right this moving didn't achieve anything.  You need a dueler that immunes knockback to really spoil Aht's traps, or be much faster than her (good luck with that), or else be Zophar and fill the screen or something.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 07:18:41 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8135
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2011, 07:33:41 AM »
No, that's not right at all. You can just move to the back row. Done and done, Aht's strategy ruined. This is crystal clear. It'd be like if Arnaud's stat downs didn't work on elemental hexes; the enemy could just walk to an elemental hex if they didn't start in one.

I don't find this unfair compared to in-game at all. Personally I didn't find traps very useful because almost every worthwhile boss either couldn't be pushed (including, y'know, the final) or had key parts that couldn't be. Actually every boss I've either had trouble for or heard hype for falls into one of these categories! We could go back and forth on this but it's really more suited for the in-game use debate. In the DL, though, it's clear how traps can be spoiled by anyone Aht fails to instant double and it's really stupid to both force the opponent into the RH grid system and then not allow him/her to play with it.

Not wanting to punish Aht for only having Push Attack is like not wanting to punish Raynie for not having Super Heal (since Tourniquets are easily available anyway). Actually, what you propose is worse, since at least solo Raynie CAN fullheal in-game, unlike solo Aht who can't touch a backrow enemy with a trap. Regardless: duellers fight on their abilities, not what they can do with a little help from their friends, let alone what their friends can do themselves. Traps are clearly something that need teamwork to work properly.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Clear Tranquil

  • Garden of Innocence
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2331
  • Your dreams shatter and burn! Punishing! Blossom!
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2011, 09:45:27 AM »
Interesting. Yeah as far as I was aware most people tend to throw out moving around/setting up stuffs and moving around shenanigans and just force PCs to turn base in the DL especially when it comes to the likes of ARPG characters/etc. Things tend to get very unbalanced and psyducky otherwise. Just curious though to those who do allow it like Snowfire do you also allow the likes of Roger's Land Mines and Nel's Whirlwind for SO3 ... because if so Roger really shouldn't be in Light. Land Mines is sub Faerie Friend level damage (L10 Land Mines has the same damage modifiers as L1 Faerie Friend ... granted Faerie Friend is still 60% stronger at L10 and minor Faerie Friend has the same modifiers on X at L10 than on major/O at L1 but yeah) I suppose you also have to allow proficiency levels for that too though. Nel's Whirlwind just makes her even more broken than she already is, insanely so especially if you allow characters to make use of passives like peep, increase hp damage, increase mp damage, etc too since Nel can attach passives to the whirlwind.

Speed is great in the DL and all but I think it also needs some solid back up and it alone might not be enough for certain PCs without the advantage of other in game perks, Aht is not the only one to fall victim to this. Meru/Sharanda also come to mind with their OP item use off OP speed/dragon summon Special off stat up/down items/etc spam of in game fame that doesn't translate to the DL. Rikku is another speedster who has fun playing with Common Steal + Use/Mix shenanigins in game but who doesn't get as much to work with in the DL. Dems the breaks :(~
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 11:13:42 PM by Clear Tranquil »
"A Yeul that loved to sing. A Yeul who wished to travel. A Yeul that collected flowers.... Every one of them was unique"

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2011, 02:37:20 PM »
Ultros (Final Fantasy VI) v Yuffie (Final Fantasy VII) - Status blockers and a bit of respect/low respect for Ultros.

Aigis (Persona 3) v Mathias (Suikoden V) - Interesting match here. Mathias has 3 shots of Funeral Wind, each is initially 50%. Aigis can grab the Wind Charm which effectively gives her Dodge Wind - apparently there is fuck-all documentation on that, but I think it's double the evasion? Mathias is apparently slightly weak to Shot, haha. I'm quite curious as to what Mathias does if we assume Funeral Wind won't hit over any of the three charges - it's definitely close to missing, given Aigis evasion respect and Wind Charm. It means she's without another accessory, though. That said, is Suiko magic even evadable? If not, then yeah, this vote's staying as it is. Kneejerking that Mathias wins either way, as much as I wish Aigis could. :(
Karin Koenig (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) v Seifer Almasy (Final Fantasy VIII) - haha, Seifer in Middle.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4938
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2011, 03:55:31 AM »
CT: I certainly do allow such moves, but Roger has trouble getting enemies to wander into his land mines IIRC?  If he has some reliable way of setting up Land Mines -> knock enemies into them, I'd be willing to hype him in the DL.

DHE: Blargh.  How to put this to not start a flame war?  Yes, I know this is the dueling league.  I specifically stated that the usefulness of traps with other characters was a subjective factor in how I harshly I want to grade an ability.  You are free to disagree with it, or for that matter to anti-hype them for in-game use, but it's not a new insight.  I do try to take into account in-game usefulness for DL interpretations; when there are unclear issues that can be resolved either way - which there always are - but one hoses something useful in-game, I likely to try and pick the other interp which reflects its value. 

As for in-game use itself (and sure it can be discussed again at the in-game use topic), in Aht's defense, I'd also point out that I'm not sure I can ever recall enemies moving to the back row in RH.  And in-game, moving enemies are great for Aht - much more likely they'll trigger a trap.  I think Aht translates to the DL fine: there are some enemies that totally hose her traps like the giant spider, sure, just luckily for her there's not that many huge enemies / people the immune knockback in Middle.  I certainly wouldn't let her knock around, say, an immobile Fire Emblem boss or Evil Gaia.  Also, if you're hyping bosses as being good those that immune Aht's tricks, well, that cuts both ways!  That kind of implies Aht's tricks are good when they work, no?  In the final 5 boss sequence, I killed the first boss (P) with pretty much Aht damage alone off just 2 traps, and also killed the fourth boss (V) extremely quickly and before her support via trap damage (just 2 there as well, I think).

Anyway.  Just to be sure here.  You let characters fighting RH opponents spawn anywhere in the grid and move?  Do you include damage bonuses / penalties in this?  Because things get *really weird* if you don't.  A dueler starting in the front can't be Grappled by Marco / Rosch and thus can't be subjected to extra physical damage, for example?  Or does get Grappled, moves nowhere, and then magically gets the damage buff / defense penalty?  If you do, then this is something of a headache as each fight potentially has to be interpreted 3 different times based off where the RH opponent spawned.  Plus, what about characters for whom moving is plainly legal, but whose systems don't have a bonus / penalty attached to it, like Raquel?  Can Raquel Move & Attack, charge a little, and say she moved to the RH front to get an attack bonus?

The answer to me is that this is a giant headache.  No, you can't.  You can *move* but you can't change RH rows unless an RH character's positioning sets you up for this, or you have some sort of row-changing ability naturally.  And furthermore, a character always starts in the center row with no bonus nor penalty to damage / defense.  (To continue the WA4 analogy, I wouldn't apply the small elemental resistance buffs you get from standing in a Wind Hex to duelers fighting WA4 characters either.)

Incidentally, I got to do some trolling in RPGMon with Aht awhile back, and Ref Pyro was considerably harsher on this than I was, FWIW.  Aht could drop traps and there was 0 anybody could do about them aside from wait for the eventual Push Attack, though I'd have been in favor of letting say FF9 characters row-switch to try and avoid a trap.  (Note that FF9 does not have a "move back and left" option, though, so this only works in a RPGMon / team setting when you haven't been trapped yet; it only helps in the DL if you have an explicit 'move back' command and outspeed Aht, lest moving backward be suicide.)

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8135
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2011, 07:56:50 AM »
Quote
but one hoses something useful in-game, I likely to try and pick the other interp which reflects its value.

Strikes me you're overrating it if anything. This pretty much lets Aht get her trap damage uninhibited when there are many, many inhibitions to effective trapping in-game. Large bosses, unmovable enemies, overly crowded battlefields (can't push an enemy into a trap if there's another enemy in the way). You'll have to correct me on the last point because I never got them, but if I recall what I read correctly the traps which do worthwhile damage also take up two squares, and there are plenty of enemy formations without two adjacent squares, and certainly without it in worthwhile places. You're pretty much just going to say "well, I see 98% of the DL as push-vulnerable, and furthermore it is always possible for Aht to trap the square she wants and then push the enemy into it". This goes beyond what in-game allows, which I think is a big no-no given you're already breaking the rules to "respect" this move... you should err on the side which is closer to the DL ruleset. At least by my views, Aht gets closer to her first double with a trap, which is handy given her game. Perhaps it underrates traps, but these things have a way of balancing... the DL overrates Super Heal a lot! And Dreamless, which I allow even if I'm not sure you do, is a move which deserves hearty lols for in-game use unless there's considerably more RH aftergame than I think there is. Aht with Dreamless ends up as a very solid Middle... a better dueller than Stocke, certainly, who I consider a clearly better PC in-game.

Re my own views on the RH grid system, I haven't decided it. There's certainly a chance I just won't consider it at all (I don't for SRPGs, after all). However this does shut out some of RH's unique tricks. If I do, then I start RH opponents in a random column (so no Quigong Wave hype until Wind God Strike is used), and row... bleh, not sure. It's not going to end in an interp that makes traps worth using so I'm not too worried there. And enemies can definitely, definitely move. It's blatantly unfair to give RH the benefits of this grid and just say to the enemies "you're screwed" and I think it was quite wrong of Pyro to make that ruling. Flipside, I also would force enemies to obey the rules of RH movement, which means they can't move and attack on the same turn (with perhaps a specific exception to Raquel who has a similar such specific exception in-game. No exception for, say, Fire Emblem characters, though. ... maybe ones with canto)


(And for the record, I certainly have seen RH enemies move to the back row in-game. Plenty of times, I'm... really surprised you haven't. V1 for an obvious example off the top of my head. On the other hand, I've never seen an enemy move into a trap.)


EDIT: Also, if you do decide to stick with your current views which make trap damage an inevitability (by your own analysis), it should certainly be factored into the damage average. I don't consider an incredibly paltry number of DL push-immune enemies (almost none of which are actually in Aht's division) to invalidate this strategy. Replacing Cross Star with "average of Push/Left/Right Assault + Star Trap" ups the kill point by 43 which makes Aht's 2HKOs a little harder to come by (102% PCHP damage assuming the lower posted average). Also obviously makes the rest of the cast a little unhappy, but that's their problem.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 10:19:11 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Cmdr_King

  • Strong and Full of Love
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5566
  • Is Gay
    • View Profile
    • CK Blog
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2011, 08:22:59 AM »
Aht's advanced traps do indeed take up two spaces on the same row, but it's purely advantageous; if only one space is available there, it will merely occupy that one space.  Doesn't matter at all if you take people starting randomly in all rows rather than randomly in middle row, though (but does mean she can always nail opponents once if you do take enemies as starting somewhere in middle row)
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8135
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2011, 08:24:08 AM »
I don't see how, assuming you allow enemies to move? They just move to that one unoccupied back square.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Cmdr_King

  • Strong and Full of Love
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5566
  • Is Gay
    • View Profile
    • CK Blog
Re: Tourney 2011 Round 1, Week 3
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2011, 08:26:00 AM »
I don't think enemies can move in both columns and rows on the same turn?
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.