Author Topic: Proving Grounds: Flonning it up in Heavy  (Read 1114 times)

SnowFire

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Proving Grounds: Flonning it up in Heavy
« on: July 24, 2023, 04:35:03 AM »
Djinn nicely asked for another round, so…  here's some more Heavies of various varieties, along with the usual write-in option.

Flonne (Disgaea 5)
Rabbid Rosalina (Mario + Rabbids 2)
Harbinger (Etrian Odyssey 5)
Nightseeker (Etrian Odyssey Nexus)
Anna (Triangle Strategy)
Rubino (Brigandine: Runersia)
Kagetsu (Fire Emblem Engage)


Flonne vs. Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII)
Flonne vs. Ness (Earthbound)
Flonne vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Flonne vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4)
Flonne vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V)
Flonne vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)

Flonne vs. Naoto (Persona 4)
Flonne vs. Justin (Grandia)
Flonne vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Flonne vs. Zerase (Suikoden V)
Flonne vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Flonne vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)


Rabbid Rosalina vs. Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII)
Rabbid Rosalina vs. Ness (Earthbound)
Rabbid Rosalina vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Rabbid Rosalina vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4)
Rabbid Rosalina vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V)
Rabbid Rosalina vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)

Rabbid Rosalina vs. Naoto (Persona 4)
Rabbid Rosalina vs. Justin (Grandia)
Rabbid Rosalina vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Rabbid Rosalina vs. Zerase (Suikoden V)
Rabbid Rosalina vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Rabbid Rosalina vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)


Harbinger vs. Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII)
Harbinger vs. Ness (Earthbound)
Harbinger vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Harbinger vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4)
Harbinger vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V)
Harbinger vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)

Harbinger vs. Naoto (Persona 4)
Harbinger vs. Justin (Grandia)
Harbinger vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Harbinger vs. Zerase (Suikoden V)
Harbinger vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Harbinger vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)



Nightseeker vs. Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII)
Nightseeker vs. Ness (Earthbound)
Nightseeker vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Nightseeker vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4)
Nightseeker vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V)
Nightseeker vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)

Nightseeker vs. Naoto (Persona 4)
Nightseeker vs. Justin (Grandia)
Nightseeker vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Nightseeker vs. Zerase (Suikoden V)
Nightseeker vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Nightseeker vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)



Anna vs. Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII)
Anna vs. Ness (Earthbound)
Anna vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Anna vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4)
Anna vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V)
Anna vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)

Anna vs. Naoto (Persona 4)
Anna vs. Justin (Grandia)
Anna vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Anna vs. Zerase (Suikoden V)
Anna vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Anna vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)



Rubino vs. Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII)
Rubino vs. Ness (Earthbound)
Rubino vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Rubino vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4)
Rubino vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V)
Rubino vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)

Rubino vs. Naoto (Persona 4)
Rubino vs. Justin (Grandia)
Rubino vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Rubino vs. Zerase (Suikoden V)
Rubino vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Rubino vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)



Kagetsu vs. Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII)
Kagetsu vs. Ness (Earthbound)
Kagetsu vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Kagetsu vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4)
Kagetsu vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V)
Kagetsu vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)

Kagetsu vs. Naoto (Persona 4)
Kagetsu vs. Justin (Grandia)
Kagetsu vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Kagetsu vs. Zerase (Suikoden V)
Kagetsu vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Kagetsu vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)


XX vs. Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII)
XX vs. Ness (Earthbound)
XX vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
XX vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4)
XX vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V)
XX vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)

XX vs. Naoto (Persona 4)
XX vs. Justin (Grandia)
XX vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
XX vs. Zerase (Suikoden V)
XX vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
XX vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)

Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds: Flonning it up in Heavy
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2023, 07:17:06 AM »
Flonne vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Ok Flash still works.
Flonne vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - Honestly finding Primm's defensive tricks pretty overrated these days so yeah.
Flonne vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - gg ramtos
Flonne vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Fuuma heallocks so the question is how many of those 25k gil boondoggles would I allow in a world where I also allow Hermes Sandals and the answer is probably not enough for Ninja to do it on an eventual double, 115% isn't fast enough for that.  Maybe if Image covered pseudomagic.
Flonne vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Lightning isn't really a thing in Disgaea that I can recall so no lumping it in with Wind for me but uh that's where the good news for Zapdos ends.
Flonne vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - another day, another instant death spammer
Flonne vs. Justin (Grandia) - sigh
Flonne vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Camilla goes first, heal locks with a handaxe because of Flonne's mild axe weakness and Savage Blow... except Flonne can counter and staves in D5 have 1-2 range so she's never safe from being ended once Flonne uses her Overload.  Going melee won't work either because iron isn't much better for damage in this scenario (never use Fates silvers if you're trying to enforce a heallock and forcing Flonne to use Omega Heal a few times isn't worth it) and it lets Flonne run fists.  8% crit rate isn't really good enough with my low respect for FE crits.  I don't think there's been a scenario where Camilla curses being 0.1 AS shy of doubling average more.
Flonne vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - ...well at least Flonne doesn't have Star resist.
Flonne vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - Think she has the level of damage control needed to avoid seeing Finishing Touch.
Flonne vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - Dead End

What does it say that all the losses that I can vote on here involve instant death.

Harbinger vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Sure.  I'm more and more inclined to use a tiered system for SDs that make them linerally less potent and sets the cap/floor to 160%/62.5% at +/-5 SDs these days (I've actually toyed with the idea in my head for years but never really found an opportune time to make a switch, also okay not *literally* -5 because speed debuffing massive speed faliures shouldn't even be theorhetically useful are you happy hypothetical pedantic person) so Harbinger's insane action speed boost under Miasma Armor doesn't result in them being *crazy* fast but it doesn't matter here.
Harbinger vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - Pretty sure status doesn't go through Lucent Barrier... which doesn't really leave Harbinger with much if I'm honest.
Harbinger vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - :arnaud: continues to happen, Harbinger struggles to land anything even before Illusion comes into play and Slow Down just induces complete despair, Arnaud likely doesn't even need to bother with getting a blocker.
Harbinger vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Durable, Ninja is not.  Harbinger is saved by having Auto-Miasma here but thanks to that insane action speed boost and poizn Ninja dies before seeing a second turn.
Harbinger vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Yeah probably.  Both poizn and panic are bad for Zapdos and they can only use one berry.
Harbinger vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - Definitely a case where Naoto being able to set up for evasion matters as Chaos Reap is unrelable enough as is.
Harbinger vs. Justin (Grandia) - Bonecrusher Axe, the end?  G1 can get a blocker for all of Harbinger's relevent statuses and their damage when he's unable to apply them is putrid.
Harbinger vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Well thanks to 3H we know what scythes should count as and the answer is lances.  That said... 60% speed modifier on the status reaps puts their action speed to 135, which means Harbinger doesn't have a 3-2 here and Miasma Armor only lasts for three turns so a 4-3 would be out regardless, so Camilla needs to lose two turns to either paralysis or panic as without poizn Harbinger will only 4HKO.  This... probably still works out, I think?  I'd need to nail down exactly how the turn order breaks down but I don't think there's anything that would jeapordize Harbinger having a >50% chance of winning here.
Harbinger vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - Yep.
Harbinger vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - Probably.
Harbinger vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - Yeah Asellus didn't really need for a lot of her evasion to be reliant on the enemy having only single target physicals.

Nightseeker vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Yeah there's no real way Ness prevents Nightseeker getting a Shadow Cloak Assassinate off.
Nightseeker vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - Yeah for whatever sick reason SoM status blocking has a massive disparity compared to the last storebought accessories so Primm just experiences a world of problems regardless.
Nightseeker vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - :arnaud: continuing to happen?  Seems possible.
Nightseeker vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V)] - wait right I'm an idiot and overlooked Venom Throw for some reason, Venom Throw+Swift Edge still works so we just use that since there's a 67% chance that Nightseeker starts with Shadow Cloak up.
Nightseeker vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Sleep Throw being faster and Nightseeker being able to block paralysis means berry hype very likely doesn't matter here, any average where they're unquestionably legal would put Thunder OHKO hype out of the question anyways.  Never mind the fact that Blind gets the same results here anyways.
Nightseeker vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - Yeah uh Nightseeker accuracy is a thing, pretty impossible to take Miori Shirt hype seriously in the face of that.
Nightseeker vs. Justin (Grandia) - G1's big status blocker doesn't cover blind and even without instant death, Nightseeker has other options.  That's probably enough to deal with Bonecrusher Axe hype.  Immortal Aura hype deserves to be fired off into the sun.
Nightseeker vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Nightseeker uses swords, yeah, but their accuracy is just obscene, so the sleep+assassinate combo is unstoppable here.
Nightseeker vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - Blind is here with the joke of the day.
Nightseeker vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - FF7 can block ID but it doesn't actually matter.
Nightseeker vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - Probably, Nightseeker is entirely reliant on single target physicals to land status which doesn't work out too well here.

Anna vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Um.
Anna vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Anna vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - Have fun chasing shadows, I guess.
Anna vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Anna is faster and 2RKOs but Ninja has that 25% evasion which makes being able to gamble on Fuumas instead of needing Image up at all times to not die a thing... except Anna has Take Cover and I don't really know how to feel about that.
Anna vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)
Anna vs. Naoto (Persona 4) -
Anna vs. Justin (Grandia)
Anna vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Anna... can't really safely attack ever and even has partial WTD to work with because daggers are in the same part of the weapon triangle as lances.  Sleep's out since Camilla's in-game EXP advantage is gross.
Anna vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - Pretty sure Anna's the faster one here.
Anna vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Anna vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - Probably.

Rubino vs. Ness (Earthbound) - A Brigandine character trying to beat Ness in a slugfest that is rich.
Rubino vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana)
Rubino vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - No particular reason for me to believe that :arnaud: doesn't happen here.
Rubino vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Fall Berg 2HKOs and there's nothing Ninja can do about it.
Rubino vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Paralysis is out and Pressure doesn't really change the fact that Fall Berg is hitting a weakness here and that's just mean.
Rubino vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - Brig doesn't really have ID to immune but Rubino has good status resist anyways, enough so that he'll likely get a turn to throw up Resist and put Naoto's chances into the shitter, which makes this academic.
Rubino vs. Justin (Grandia)
Rubino vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Has Awakening/Fates Swordbreaker, (barely) survives Rubino's two casts of Fall Berg.  Heaven help Rubino if he's seen as below average AS but I wouldn't take that view with Brig PCs.
Rubino vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - 1.73 mdur eh yeah sure that probably takes two meteors and he surely 2HKOs, his basic physical is above average
Rubino vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII)
Rubino vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier)

Kagetsu vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Cordelia, Kagetsu ain't, so my kneejerk is that Ness actually can hang on for long enough to do the needful.
Kagetsu vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - My respect for Lucent Barrier is probably still high enough for this though.
Kagetsu vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - Yeah -10 avoid isn't good enough against the Illusion/Slow Down combo
Kagetsu vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Fuuma 2HKOs.
Kagetsu vs. Zapdos (Pokemon)
Kagetsu vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - Well Kagetsu has something like 1.5x average luck to make the instant death bad and there's a limit to how much I'm willing to hype nu!persona evasion strats against people with overkill accuracy to begin with so I guess the question here is are those factors enough and when in doubt Naoto doesn't really deserve calls made in her favor.
Kagetsu vs. Justin (Grandia)
Kagetsu vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Kagestu acc/evade are good but not reliably thwart Swordbreaker on people with modest evade to begin with good, and lances means he loses his counters while Camilla keeps hers.
Kagetsu vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - 51% evade says he'll dodge one of two meteors and that's all he needs.
Kagetsu vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - Surely.
Kagetsu vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - She ignores his evasion, he can't ignore hers.

rest later
« Last Edit: July 27, 2023, 05:51:26 PM by Random Consonant »

074

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Re: Proving Grounds: Flonning it up in Heavy
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2023, 08:51:17 AM »
Flonne vs. Ness (Earthbound) - good lord if Love Protection actually stuffs Deathblow then i'm not sure how many years this will take

it's worth noting that Love Protection generally will not cover stat-downs, field effects, or instakills, this has been tested and verified, just FYI.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Proving Grounds: Flonning it up in Heavy
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2023, 11:45:36 AM »
Flonne vs. **Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII)** - Flonne's 50% Fire Res and Staff Res let's her survive a turn-1 Magic Burst, but Tensionx2 Magic Burst is just rude levels of damage. 
Flonne vs. **Ness (Earthbound)** - She could heal-stall everything else, except PK Flash. Spoiled by backup ID.
**Flonne** vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - D5 specials are Magic-typed Skill damage, which gets around Wall and Lumina Guard. 2HKOs. Heal locks or Heal stalls until she can Overload and OHKO.
Flonne vs. **Arnaud (Wild Arms 4)** - Slow Down shenanigans give him enough turns to land his terrible ID. Spoiled by ID again.
**Flonne** vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Ninja can’t OHKO so Flonne healstalls until he’s out of Fuuma Shurikens or until she hits Overload.
**Flonne** vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Zapdos only 2HKOs (at best, if you see Thunder as being hit by D5 Wind Res, he 4HKOs), so Flonne stalls until Overload or until Zapdos is out of Thunders

Flonne vs. **Naoto (Persona 4)** - to the surprise of no one, spoiled by ID.
Flonne vs. **Justin (Grandia)** - stat topic says he has 55% ID on the Bonesplitter Ax? That outpaces Flonne’s 3HKO I guess. Spoiled by bad ID again.
**Flonne** vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Camilla seems just shy of doubling average, so she's merely outputting massive amounts of damage each turn instead of overkill amounts. Flonne takes an extra 20% damage from axes, and Camilla's thorns are tacking on an additional 20% mHP shot each turn, so it's not looking great for Flonne. Mathing it all out, Camilla does 97.3% to Flonne with one hit. Flonne does have range advantage and is equipped with a magic weapon, so that should give Tome > Axe WTA to her too. Camilla is rocking a 20% evasion rate while Flonne has 33% evasion to Camilla's 95% accuracy. Flonne can squeak by with a healstall strategy, but Camilla's 8% crit rate is a constant threat, though Camilla is debuffing her damage slightly every turn.
**Flonne** vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - Zerase doesn't OHKO with Meteor and she isn't doubling soon enough to take out Flonne before Zerase's out of resources. Flonne heal-stalls the 2-3 Meteors and then leisurely takes her out.
**Flonne** vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - following Dhyer's topic, Cloud is barely under avg speed, so he's giving up the first hit, which means Flonne is free to knock him down ~40% and ruin his Ultima Weapon damage. This *could* give him a L1 Limit, but it's barely 2HKOing and Flonne immunes the status. So she just heals up and then ends him at her leisure. If he's set up for a L3 Limit, she has to heal-stall from turn 2 until she hits her own Overload and finishes him off.
Flonne vs. **Asellus (Saga Frontier)** - Mystic Change into DeadEnd spam is just too much ID for Flonne to outpace. Spoiled by ID again.

Camilla math since it's such a close match:
Quote
I think this match would go:
1. Flonne: Flonnezilla (1st of 3 needed vs. Camilla's average MDur)
1. Camilla: Axe to the face (71.1% dmg to Flonne) -> Rose Thorns (25.6% more dmg to Flonne)
2. Flonne: Omega Heal (one of the few times Giga Heal won't cut it) to full
2. Camilla: repeat, but 3% worse due to Silver Axe self-debuffs
3. Flonne: Omega Heal
3. Camilla: miss -> Rose Thorns
4. Flonne: normal Heal (she can't risk not being fullhealed)
4. Camilla: Axe/Thorns
5. Flonne: Omega Heal
5. Camilla Axe/Thorns
6. Flonne: Omega Heal
6. Camilla: miss - Rose Thorns
7. Flonne: normal Heal (conserving SP, Flonne's at 777/1293)
7. Camilla: Axe/Thorns
8. Flonne : Omega Heal
8. Camilla: Axe/Thorns
9. Flonne: Omega Heal
9. Camilla: miss - Rose Thorns
10. Flonne: normal Heal (SP: 339)
10. Camilla: Axe/Thorns (possible 8% crit by now, winning the match)
11. Flonne: Turn 11, enters Revenge Mode (SP costs=1, auto-critical hits on everything), Overloads to change into Pure Flonne, damage output with a single Flonnezilla now OHKOs
Alternate take:
Quote
alternate take if Flonne goes Fist instead:
1. Flonne: Casts RES+30% (attacking with a Fist would trigger a Camilla counter)
1b. Camilla: Silver Axe (71.1% dmg to Flonne) -> Rose Thorns (25.6% more dmg to Flonne)
1c. Flonne counter attack: 21.4% dmg to Camilla
2. Flonne: Omega Heal
2b. Camilla: Axe/Thorns
2c. Flonne counter: Camilla has taken 42.8% cumulative dmg
3. Flonne: Omega Heal
3b. Camilla: miss->Thorns (25.6% to Flonne)
3c. Flonne counter: Camilla 64% cumulative dmg
4. Flonne: normal Heal
4b. Camilla: Axe/Thorns
4c. Flonne counter: Camilla 85% cumulative dmg
5. Flonne: Flonnezilla, match ends unless Camilla dodges (Camilla has 20% evasion, so it's possible, but Flonne can just stall/counter again for an assured victory)

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Re: Proving Grounds: Flonning it up in Heavy
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2023, 01:35:50 AM »
Harbinger(Deathbringer) vs. Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII) - Chaos Reap misses turn 1.  Harbinger doesn't have any fire resistance options, and relying on a Paralyzing Reap coinflip isn't reliable enough.  Magic Burst does its OHKO thing.
Harbinger(DB) vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Ness can't OHKO, eats Panic on Turn 2, gets cut down from there I'm quite sure.
Harbinger(DB) vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - Not sure how to consider this since I'm not sure if status riders get through Lucent Barrier or not?
Harbinger(DB) vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - :arnaud: happens.
Harbinger(DB) vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - Ninja gets hit with Poison turn 1, and faces a conundrum here.  If they go on the offensive, they're likely to get cut down next turn with Frigid Reap.  If they try to go on the defensive and throw out Image to try and block FR, on the other hand, the insanely high poison damage kills them in short order.
Harbinger(DB) vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Harby can put on a blocker for Paralysis.  Detect is only a delaying tactic if the bird chooses to run it, but more notably, Toxic Reap is Turn 1, and Frigid Reap hits a 2x weakness on Zapdos here.  The second Zapdos gets hit with status, he's dead next turn, no question.

Harbinger(DB) vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - ...this is literally hinging on whether I'm viewing 67% or 70% as Turn 1 odds.  If the former, Naoto wins.  If the latter, Harbinger inflicts Panic and wins, there is no in between here.  Though Miori Shirt as an option definitely seals it in favor of Naoto, as EO characters everywhere continue to bemoan ID blockers being postgame that I will not Yamikei Clause in.
Harbinger(DB) vs. Justin (Grandia) - Jury's out here.
Harbinger(DB) vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Leaving my note here that as Reaps are RT, Camilla is not getting counters, will factor the rest of this later.
Harbinger(DB) vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - Harbinger can survive one Meteor, and one is enough.  Blessing shores up some of the Turn 1 damage, Panic lands Turn 2, and Zerase is now rendered helpless as she is cut down unceremoniously.
Harbinger(DB) vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - I don't think poison damage ticks up limits?  If it does, Cloud's probably going to get a limit off and win, but if it doesn't, well, Cloud has to pick between blocking Confuse and Poison here, and I don't think he'd really be able to power through that?  Blessing should patch up enough of the first hit damage that Harbinger will survive at least one more turn after that.
Harbinger(DB) vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier) - Asellus...actually fares pretty poorly here.  Reaps being RT mean that she can't fall back on Deflect or Kasumi, Harbinger goes first with reaps (act speed of Reaps with Miasma up is at 152% speed), and Panic being turn 2 means, as far as I am aware, that she'll lose in the long run.  (I'm going by NEB's stat topic where Asellus has only enough JP for one Glass Shield, for the reference.  It's much closer if she has 10+ JP).  Feels like a solid win for Harbinger here.

Nightseeker vs. Jessica (Dragon Quest VIII) - Jess gets outsped, doesn't block blind, eats it from a Sand Throw, gets two attacks to try to do something.  Unfortunately for her, EO Blind hits magic accuracy too, so she's probably missing those.  In said two turns, NSK's shredding her with Swift Edge->Disaster to take her out.
Nightseeker vs. Ness (Earthbound) - Ness has 90% sleep resist, which means that Sleep Throw is ruled out and NSK has to go for more creative strategies.  Nerve Throw or Sand Throw, on the other hand, is likely to do some horrible things.  Not helped is that NSK's innate status resistance knocks the chance of Flash to land altogether to Turn 3 rates, so Ness is going to have to try to break Cloak or else eat an instakill.  Between that and the risks of lost momentum from trying to heal status, it's a fair assumption that an Assassinate will go off more likely than not.
Nightseeker vs. Purim / Primm (Secret of Mana) - I'll be abstaining here.  The stat topic claims that she'd be taking a significant defense hit here to get sleep blocking, which if that is the case, would result in her being frail enough to be OHKO'ed by a single shot of Disaster.  (Without optimizing to block Sleep Throw, she instead just gets hit with the Sleep->Assassinate wombo combo).  Otherwise, she may be left alive to start Lucent Barrier shenanigans which would cause an actual problem.
Nightseeker vs. Arnaud (Wild Arms 4) - So, the good thing for Nightseeker is that they've got enough accuracy to land the first shot on Arnaud.  The...less good thing is that they're getting precisely two shots (one likely being Disaster) before :arnaud: happens, and I don't think NSK's good enough to get around that, especially with Arnaud being able to equip a Sleep blocker. Note: Going to give this one a second look.  There's a *lot* going on here and looking for arguments is going to be tricky just for the :arnaud:, but hey.  Two characters with big multifaceted kits, what can go wrong?
Nightseeker vs. Ninja (Final Fantasy V) - So, good news for Ninja.  Dual-Wield means they can get something through Cloak.  Unfortunately for them, I don't consider Hermes Sandals DL-legal, and NSK's got a faster turn 1 than Ninja.  Sleep->Assassinate likely happens.  Note:I'll be looking at this later to see if there's an argument for winning against Ninja with HS.  Worth noting Fumas will not hit through Shadow Cloak, and Venom Throw hits harder than Backstab once the poison procs.
Nightseeker vs. Zapdos (Pokemon) - Having to eyeball the speed value on Zapdos, it's not going to be nearly as far off of average as NSK is.  NSK can also just equip to block Paralysis, so Zapdos is likely to just be eating Sleep and dying.

Nightseeker vs. Naoto (Persona 4) - Looks like Naoto doesn't have any way to block sleep.  Or physical ID.  Literal PSIV Boss accuracy is a counter to Miori Shirt strats, and thus Sleep->Assassinate would work well enough.  If the 1-hit guts kicks in, Disaster next turn just to make sure it sticks.
Nightseeker vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - If it weren't for the literal 235% ACC, I would say NSK may want to swap to a dagger.  As is, though, FE versus status lol.  (more precisely: this is very much a Pick Your Poison here.  Blind cripples what Camilla can do offensively, and Sleep just leaves her open to a Killing Intent Assassinate.)
Nightseeker vs. Zerase (Suikoden V) - ...Oh.  This one's close, and is honestly far more of a brawl than I was expecting.  So, while I generally do frown upon storebought ribbon-alikes (as much as without them it'd be cut and dry), trying it with this in this case, Zerase's getting a Meteor off, which just misses OHKOing - ...wait nevermind Blind exists and isn't resisted or blocked.  NSK lands the blind, Zerase struggles to land hits with her magic accuracy cut to 33%.  Murder ensues as she only gets one more turn.  Assuming NSK doesn't go straight for forcing pressure with Assassinate, requiring her to use a physical to remove the cloak or else eat ID, and then likely following up with Disaster next turn for a similarly clean kill.
Nightseeker vs. Cloud (Final Fantasy VII) - Usual note: Cloud hates that I do not scale limits.  Furthermore, Cloud *has* to go for the Sleep blocker, or else he'll eat an instakill through the usual means.  Cloak can eat a Cross Slash with no effect (as a cancel, it negates all effects of the attack) if it's up, and Sand Throw will make it maddeningly frustrating to hit with anything else.  To seal the pressure game, it's very likely with Blind up that NSK will just get a turn open for Assassinate anyway.  Game, set, match.
Nightseeker vs. Asellus (Saga Frontier): Asellus is immune to blind by default, and can get ID immunity as well.  Probably wants it, considering NSK outspeeds anyway and is pure slashing in damage.  This means in turn, NSK's without its win and has to slug out the fight, and...this becomes a defensive fight for NSK as I'm quite certain the second Asellus gets a turn unimpeded by Shadow Cloak, Nightseeker is dead.  Especially not helped by the fact that Lifesprinkler is ITE and I'm willing to say it would work through Blind.  And Deflect and Kasumi are both noted factors here against anything not named Disaster.  Not sure who wins this so I'm abstaining.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2023, 07:04:27 AM by 074 »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Proving Grounds: Flonning it up in Heavy
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2023, 05:25:08 AM »
Magic did some testing when I noticed that Sapphire has an Evility similar to Camilla's Rose Thorns, where she deals passive damage after a battle. Testing shows that this extra hit counts towards filling the Revenge gauge, so presumably other passive sources of damage similar to this, like timed cards or additional effects, would similarly increase Revenge gauge for all D5 units.

So Camilla's Rose Thorns effect is filling Flonne's Revenge gauge at double the normal rate, which makes it an even more solid win for her. Doesn't change any votes, I just thought it was worth sharing the information.